[Survey] Documentation improvement

[Mathieu Virbel]

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?


--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

[Eric Gaudet]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:36:52 PM UTC-7, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 

Fair. I've been using python for several year doing small-scale scripting (including sql database connections, text parsing, and a multi-threaded http crawler)
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Mid-level tutorials, especially widgets, properties and .kv files. The current documentation is very good with getting you started, and the API doc is also quite good.
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

I'm used to the table of content by now, as I do mostly widgets coding these days. But I still have to poke around and search quite a bit when I need information outside the uix. The config file, for example, is hidden in the Application page. Sometimes the best way is to look into the source code itself.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The interaction between the .kv declarations and python need more explanations, IMHO. I love the .kv file, but it's kind of magic the way it works sometimes.
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I find the examples lacking. There is your "hello world" in multiple flavors, which is bare-bone, 10 lines of codes. Then there is the mighty "showcase" which throws everything at your face. But nothing in-between, like a layout in a layout, or customizing widgets, or a relatively simple application that does something actually useful. I started writing a couple of examples in the Users Snippets (which is impossible to find on the site, BTW, there should be a link in the right(!)-nav of the doc) myself, as I discover Kivy. I would like more of that.
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not really.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Love2d.org/wiki

Although it's simple in scope than Kivy, the API is not just a list of functions: it also has a very good explanation of the core concepts without falling into the trap of explaining the implementation.
 

--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

Thanks for making Kivy! I love it, I love how new features are coming in a fast pace, and I love how responsive and nice the dev team is!

Éric (Titousensei)

[T500]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

I thought I was fair, but you guys blow me away :) Fair/Hobbyist written a few progs of like mediaplayers, clocks, checkers, personal privacy vaults and python/arduino controller projects  

2. What is the first thing you look for: 

Getting Started, tutorials, example code, API 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table of content, Google? 

Tabbed pages of relevant topic on a bookmark. The search feature can frustrating for UIX stuff. Easy example here, Download for linux, links for instructions to Ubuntu. So for Linux in general I have to follow the link to Ubuntu, Click at the bottom back to "Install for MaxOS", then click forward to "Install for Linux" and then I have the page which includes OpenSuSE :( Using the search here would have been easier only if it was on the download page. But for most of the time I'm manually searching the API for clues and exploring reliance rather than using the search box.  

  

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Examples are good, slick and tidy, but single ended and difficult to expand upon. I can do small apps, Kivy is very expedient and flexible for this. But I struggle trying to leap from a small single page app to a more complex app with changing screen setups. I really can't find the glue that binds all the experience I need to learn plan that root and child and its mystical relationship with KV. I find myself bouncing between examples and the API trying to plan the structure of what I'm trying to write. I really need a leg up with understanding the styles of build, root structures need some kind of bridge in the knowledge gap between simple app and creating an app I can build on and learn and fully understand the structure. 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

That mid way point tutorial between starting out and writing and building on multiple page apps with falling down pitfalls. When I figure it out in a blinding flash of logic how simple the answer was I will let you know. Its at the repetitive stage of trying different methods and building on it in trial and error, mostly the later. Its like a build it yourself furniture kit, all the parts nicely blister packed and nice pretty picture of what it should look like assembled. Really easy when you have built a few, except the door that don't seem to fit right and have some spare bits left over LOL 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Never tried them, sounds like a nice idea.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

Its an older and mature project but I luv the http://faq.pygtk.org/ . It perhaps a dated style, but I like the mix of FAQ, tech info with simple examples to each topic. Its a quickfix cookbook for howto's forgotten. The thing I luv about Kivy is is not having the messy callback overheads that GTK uses and provides a simpler cleaner self contained approach.    

I think Kivy is a great project with a good Dev team, thank you. This user loves it so much he has tried to run before he can walk and tried so hard that just cant see the wood for roots and trees. Diversity sometimes confuses the correct approach to the inexperienced :) Thanks again   

[Ewald Horn]

Hi.

Answers inline :

On Thursday, 4 October 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I'd say hobbyist level, perhaps a bit more. I've used Python in several projects, but never as a full solution.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Tutorials  and Getting Started

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

I prefer the Table of Content actually.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Everything! Just kidding - Python is vastly different to Java (my usual language) and it takes time to get used to the quirks. That being said, Kivy does make Android development so much easier.
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I'm still on the early stages, but perhaps a bit more on animation?
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Screencasts are great, but they are not as useful as actual documentation.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Why, Python of course! The manuals and tutorials are awesome. I like the Kivy documentation as well, it's clear, with good examples.

[jujule]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

7/10 ;)

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

The Getting started which should show the most awesome parts of the framework, and its core design principles.

Then the tutorial, which should cover a complete project with all the best practices.

I love to have several tutorials to cover different aspects : game/application/mobile/multitouch/multimedia

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google?  

Searchbox works great :) 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Widgets VS canvas. eg a widget canvas is bigger than the widget itself, this may be confusing.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

How to design a multiscreen application ? 

Best practices ?

Build for Android/iOS/Retina :)

More advanced tutorials. the pong one is great but too simple IMHO.

Having an sample multimedia application could be interesting.

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

Nop

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

DjangoProject has a big tutorial and huge clear and up2date documentation. 

Sencha has a lot of samples/demos which helps a lot for learning something new (http://docs.sencha.com/ext-js)

Versionned docs is also nice to have (i can go back to an old version at any time)

Thanks guys for the awesome work ! 

[skeezix]

I agree with him; a number of people have brought up various
issues along the same lines, just not phrased like that. Its easy to do
some things, but you have to really dig around for other things.

I really like what you're doing here myself, and for my part, I've
not had much time to dig far into it; but in my time I have found I get
tripped up a lot more than I would have expected.. I've used dozens of UI
toolkits and so forth, but I get tripped up here more than with them ;)
Some things seem to work differently than I would expect.

(I expect this is due to the OpenGL-ification of it all, that
changes the coordinate system, the render pipe, etc.)

The odd thing to me is.. often the answer is very simple, but
'would not have guessed that' sort of answer .. there seems to be a lot of
'hidden' magic, and by hidden I just mean.. non-obvious; its in the
documents somewhere, or in a samnple, or in the mailing list, but is not a
member name or field name that jumps out at you, for the problem run into.

The docs are okay, and they're _friendly_ which is good, but Kivy
is actually a pretty big topic, and I think more detail and more samples
in the cocuemntation are needed; more scenarios.. if you want to do X, you
might do it like this.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

# 1. What is your level of experience with python?

Medium; very high for other languages and systems.

# 2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
# Guide, Tutorials, API?

API and Programming Guide. ie: I want to know the 'philosophy'
behind Kivy decisions, so that I can get into the same mental space..
sometimes I'm looking here, when the answer is over there.. I'm coming at
it from QT frame of reference, and it misleads, say.

# 3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
# of content, Google?

Drilling down through the TOC, and searching around the index on
the one side; ie: Widget documentation.. I want a list of All Widgets, so
I can just jump to it. None hidden, just a big long list (a la QT
documentation :) ..

# 4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

For me, its .kv and how it related to the code .. how the magic
happens.

What 'magic' fields can be put in; which are needed; it seemed to
me like .. sometimes you need a Rule, sometimes you're declaring a widget,
sometimes you want a custom widget in there, and sometimes you're not sure
what fields you need or why.. there seemed to be lot sof 'magic',
explained in one sentence in the docs, but it was important.

Like how the pos-hints work.. sometimes you want a size, sometimes
you want a hint, not really sure why one or the other.. what are the
impliactions?

I end up building widgets in the Code, since .kv sort of scares me
.. never really sure whats going to happen ;)

--

I'd like to see some description of the pipeline.. its probably
there, but when I ran into it, it was confusing; ie: when I fiddled with
Scale, how come some things scaled and some things didn't, and even some
things rendered with Scale while their click-surface didn't scale, etc.

Kivy 'sounds easy' but when you get into it, you quickly run into
oddities (very quickly), that are hard to approach. In QT or GTK, you tend
not to run into those difficulties.. it 'just works' more; more
predictable.

I think this is mostly because Kivy is coming from a different
angle of attack, a different way of doing things; not Kivys fault, and I
think its a Good Thing, some really clever stuff .. but it trips you up
:)

--

There is a page on building for Windows, and for Mac. What about
for Linux?

A list of dependancies for runtime; you don't need cython for user
sto run something, but they need some shared libs, and some basic system
installed stuff. And Python.

If you're deploying to some Linux machine, or Windows or
whatever.. you'll need a app-specific build of python that looks in the
right places for modules, presumably.. can't have users needing ot do
apt-get everything before running your app; what are the actual
dependancies, anyway? (I coudl figure this out I just haven't yet ;)

# 5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Doing sample 3 or 4 kinds of dialog boxes in code, and using .kv

I don't like 'trivial examples' that .. cheat; like writing a .kv
that does some of the work easy and well, but if you were to continue down
that road, you'd have to toss it out and do it differently, using .kv +
code; ie: in that sort of case, the example is cheating, solving that very
specific mad eup example, but not in a real world fashion.

Show it from both code and .kv, with comparisons, so you can see
both ways, and how the code relates to the .kv, so you can pick.

# 6. Would you like to see screencasts?

A gallery might be nice.. snippets of code and .kv and a
screenshot of what the result is?

I'd like to see some Theming examples; almost all Kivy apps look
the same (dark panels).

jeff

--
If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.

[Amirouche Boubekki]

2012/10/4 Mathieu Virbel <txp...@gmail.com>

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Fair =)
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I'm looking for ways to solve specific problems:

- how communication is done between widgets ?
- how to do multipage UIs ?
- how to create custom layouts  ?
- how to do animations ?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

0) Search
1) Tutorials
2) Howtos
3) Topics
3) References

I seldom use TOC

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

There are different types of user events mouse/touch/keyboard

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Embedded Kivy ala Native apps
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

I don't care, but it must have music if any ;)
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Django because of the documentation above

There is a tutorial, I think there should be 2 tutorial in kivy one for kv, one for Python.
Then there are howtos,
Then topics with different level of difficulty
And of course the reference API documentation.

Thanks


Amirouche

[Colonel Patch]

I'd like to back up T500 in his analysis. I have been using python for about 15 years mainly small apps and utility stuff. Last year I started playing with pygtk/gstreamer but hit a bit of a wall with integrating the gstreamer stuff with gtk apps. Then I found Kivy and discovered you guys seem to have beautifully integrated all these techs into one package with the bonus of the optimized graphics. Great so far. When I started messing with my own apps I struggle with the docs and the code samples are poorly annotated. Explaining each line and how it relates to kv file and/or python code. There seems to be a fair bit of implied knowledge and it took me a while to find how to link kv objects with python callbacks. Also a description of the various ways to build the apps, using the three? methods and if they can be mixed eg kv file+builder string + extra classes in python code. Are there any advantages to the different approaches for different apps.
Finally a schematic might be useful to show how things relate.

Still a fan, but waiting for the penny to fully drop!

[Gabriel Pettier]

http://kivy.org/docs/guide/architecture.html#architecture
Something like this? or more about the high level api usage?

> --
>
>
>

[T500]

Respectfully... No and something like that. I cant speak for the Colonel. If you have been using GStreamer, PIL and Cario for years, it kinda initially reinforces the misconception that these functions are still fully available. The pearl of wisdom on that page is "You can skip this section and refer to it later, but we suggest at least skimming it for a rough overview.". 

I liken it to driving a manual car all your life and suddenly driving an automatic. Its simpler to drive and more convenient, but the handbook said nothing sitting on your left to stop you instinctively slamming it down when stopping in a hurry. We all learn differently, I don't think any who has used python has not imported something at sometime. We work, come home and have a few hours of the days to play, and really want to get a bit of our wingwang working before bedtime. Most people glean what they need to know form the examples and move to the challenge. They target a topic in the Docs for the finer points, and there knowledge grows by doing. They learn by tinkering around few hours with an idea using your examples or your example code as a template. To read the docs 100 times without implementing is mostly forgotten the next day. 

Yet Kivy is beautifully integrated, rapidly learning this is great for kids to learn like say Ardino. A good example... "pictures",  superbly written, a textbook example of how to write, brilliant. When I first saw it, blow me away, I had a hundred one ideas of things I could do with that and PIL :) Now how do a bind a callback to say on tapping a picture. Okay walk dont run, lets do a simple silly PIL format conversion or crop tool. How do I save if? And so you drift back into the docs and try something else. Okay now I'm a bit wiser now and how dumb that thinking was. And yes I do know how to save photos in kivy using FBO to pygame save. Strange how I have spurred on reading this group and GIT back pages. And I thank those that helped with dumb questions.

We don't always learn by reading, most just learn what they need in small chunks and from template examples and build on there experience by doing in the limited time of the day that they have. Its that kinda style of working that accelerates learning through FAQ examples. You you can mix and match this you have seen and learned you build confidence to try new ideas. For some to learn and expand upon is the hobby, and people find very rewarding and build on there success and develop through creativity. Often peoples brains simple blow up in the face the diversity of what is available in the limited time they have to solve a usually simple problem.

[Güray Yildirim]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

A: Middle level. I worked with classes a bit. But I cannot say I am really good or quite good.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

A: Getting Started. It seems to me that it is more simple and fundamental.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

A: First, I take a look at table of content. If I am making a search on API, then I use search box.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

A: More Step-by-step examples could be quite good for getting used to. I has not been interested in mobile apps or any of powerful framework before and it is really taking time to get accustomed. So, step by step examples makes it so easy.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

A: From simple level to advanced level screencasts would be amazing. It would be easy to understand code concept and what should be made first, second, and other things.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

A: My preference is generally third person's documentations. After it, it will be easy to make an improvement with official documentation and API.

And a personal note: Most of apps are getting online, so a part of documentation about a simple/fundamental online app may be very effective.

5 Ekim 2012 Cuma 00:36:52 UTC+3 tarihinde Mathieu Virbel yazdı:

[Sam Brotherton]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Fair. I've been using it about two years pretty intensively for a few commercial projects as well as some side projects. I have yet to use Cython, though, so some of the kivy codebase is a little opaque to me.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

The API.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Usually I use the search box provided on the kivy site - it's pretty good!

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Basically, the stuff that isn't really Python. OpenGL and Kivy language confuse me, particularly the way that .kv files interact with python code. I find myself avoiding kv lang altogether because it doesn't act the way I expect python code to (i.e., if you use kv lang then you can't just import [module] to use your custom class). I know that there are ways to do that, and that kv provides a lot of useful optimizations, but I am having a lot of trouble understanding it.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More on graphics and kv lang!

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not a huge priority for me

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Django has excellent documentation: not only does it have a very clear, well-written, and extensive introduction to the framework; it also has full API documentation. 

In general, I think you're doing a fantastic job with the kivy documentation and it's only getting better. I remember just a few months ago there was very little on some of the graphics classes I was trying to use, and that got fixed by the time I checked again last week. It's an extremely impressive project, and the only real barrier I've found is the mysterious relationship between kv language and python.

Keep up the awesome work,

Sam

Mathieu

--

[kramer65]

Answers in line:

Op donderdag 4 oktober 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2 schreef Mathieu Virbel het volgende:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I'm comfortable (but I wouldn't say expert) using Python, having programmed several financial command line applications. I'm a novice at GUI programming though.
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting started, examples, tutorials. Once I am actually using it I normally use the API more.
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

First time I always look over the table of content. After that I normally search for specific functions so I use the search box (which works pretty nice I must say).
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The kivy language in the .kv file and how it interacts with the rest of programming in the normal python file.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Examples, examples, examples. And some more examples.. :)
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes! When I am new in a topic I have often watched Buck Roberts screencasts (here is his take on Python and wxPython). He is very well at explaining things extremely simple, but still covering a wide range of topics. If you guys would be able to do something like that (or have him do it) that would be great!

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I found the DEAP-project to be really newbie-friendly, while covering complex concepts such as algorithmic programming and evolution strategies. They preach by examples and explain their examples line by line. Their website is here and their documentation here. They don't explain what evolutionary programming is, but often provide links to articles explaining more about the underlying concepts at the bottom of an example (like here).

--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

 

Although I just started using Kivy and haven't grasped the main concepts yet, I think I am going to learn Kivy instead of wxPython since it seems a lot more 'fresh' and ready for the future than wxpython (with multi touch and all). So thanks for creating it in advance!

 

[Pavel Kostelník]

Dne čtvrtek, 4. října 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2 Mathieu Virbel napsal(a):

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate to advenced, did some django programming for mid-sized projects and a few other projects in PyQt. 

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

API for sure!

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Search box, I would LOVE to have a query completion there. Its a small thing, but it would help me a lot :)

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

kv language is the only "hard part" but still easy ish... some constructs are kind of hard to understand. Also sometimes the object logic of some modules (e.g. texture) tends to be not very pythonish (Texture.create looks really weird)

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More of fragment-like development. I had to figure it out all on my own ;) What do I mean with it? Kv lang encourages, embedding using small "windows" (boxlayouts) into other boxlayouts (bigger windows) and reusing them thanks to kv files. 

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No, definitely not worth the trouble :) Too long for me to watch, code snippets are all we want :) 

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

lxml - lot of code examples. That would be my first pick. Another would be PyBrain framework - gives you all you need in minimalistic approach 

BTW. I know this is old-fashioned by to some extend I really prefer epydoc over Sphinx (sphinx is more use friendly but epydoc is more programmer friendly I believe). 

PS Awesome job, guys. I am 50-60% ready with my master thesis on Kivy and want to release it when I am done so other people can benefit from it (deals with moder GUI design and remote rendering of 3D objects)

[Gabriel Pettier]

Wow, awesome! :D

>
>
> --
>
> Thanks all :)
>
> Mathieu
>

> --
>
>

[Huck Jerome]

From Jerome Huck

1. What is your level of experience with python?
Good level. I switched from Scheme to Python due to various changes in
Scheme norms changed from RS5S to RS6S, mutable structure...
The shift from DrScheme to Planet destroyed a lot of  time investment in
Scheme... Python seems a better place to do things with the same
capabilities.
(eval function for example).

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I am looking for a synthetic documentation. Pong is a very good strating
pointfor programming (factory...) without mistakes

velocity_x = NumericProperty(0)
5 velocity_y = NumericProperty(0)

or

velocity_x = NumericProperty(0)
5 velocity_y = NumericProperty(1)... ??? There seems to be some mistakes
here and there...

Showcase is the good strating point to explain the capabilities of Kivy
in terms of interface...
I stuggle to find it and download it !!! It takes too many pages too
have an idea of the capabilities of Kivy in the actual documentation.
Kivy seems to be like HTML plus CSS. You do not explain it in your
documentation!


3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google? I am always looking for ONE synthetic document not
tens of them...


4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? None. You have to rewrite it in
a simpler way. I waited 60 pages to get to Pong! Showcase seems a good
place to start.  I did not find it in the documentation !
I searched over the internet !!! Your should add/package all the
existing examples in a single place for doxnload....


5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?
The performances of Kivy.  There are  many packages whih can be used
with Python, Numpy for example. How to benefit of all the existing
software related to Python?
(Numpy, Fipy,....)

6. Would you like to see screencasts?
No. A simple synthetic documentation will do the job.  Why not some dev
software like Vite-Vite(something obviously developed with Kivy !!!) to
make quick dev. on a specific device like Google Nexus 7. There is the
existing
Launcher, why dont you add a text editor(in Kivy) to start buildin a
sev. system?


7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?
Fipy, a finite element in Python because I have all the
elemments(theory, example,language,...) to use Fipy.
What is all about.Examples.Theory. Keywords/Languages. A Short/Synthetic
documentation.
see FreeFem++ at http://www.freefem.org/ff++/ or Fipy at http://www.ctcms.nist.gov/fipy/
Both are scientific codes. Fipy is based on Python, Numpy... 

 

[Arnaud Delobelle]

On Thursday, 4 October 2012 22:36:52 UTC+1, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

Hi, I'm a user of one day :)

 

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I know Python quite well - been using it for more than 10 years.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting Started is really good: in 5 minutes you get a clear overview of what Kivy is about.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of contents is good when I'm not sure about what I'm looking for, or I'm looking for a feature but I'm not sure  how to search for it.

Otherwise, Google :)

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

I've had some trouble with sizing and positioning: pos, pos_hint, size, size_hint - I'm not really sure how they work.  I needed to set size_hint_y to None to make StackLayout work but I don't know why

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

See point 4.  Perhaps examples of customising the UI. Also more on .kv files.  I think the documentation is really good, it just needs fleshing out more.

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

I would prefer more documentation :) 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I like the Django docs - there is a user guide and a reference for most, or all, aspects of the framework.  Plenty of examples in the documentation.  The docs are logical and progressive so that it is easy to find a path from what I know to what I want to know.

-- 

Arnaud

[ajc]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:36:52 AM UTC+10, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Since late June 2012.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Tutorials and Programming Guide at the start.

But eventually,

always look at the API links, when I can't remember something.

What the API has is example for the .py code (which is good), but is lacking on the equivalent code in the .kv language. (At the moment, I go to the examples/ folder within kivy and look at the widget or check out the style.kv file, but for new comers, this might be a little much to see the analogue from py to kv equivalences).

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

If the quick search fails, then google search.

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Initially the kv language and maybe the observers (I realized, have to read the documentation carefully).

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More examples in the kv language, as well as more complex examples of binding items through the kv language (since in the end, that can make things much easier to do).

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No real preference regarding screencasts. Maybe if short, don't know if I'd watch a long video of someone coding.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

OpenGL API, XML XPath API and Freetype API were documented well in understanding side effects and had examples.

Though I quite like the kivy documentation how it is at the moment, I just think it needs more kv examples (or at least the examples that are distributed in the downloads to be on the website and documented).

 

--

Thanks all :)

Hope the responses help.

 

Mathieu

[krister viirsaar]

1. About the level CodeAcademy.com teaches it.
2. Getting started for the general info and then on to making my project happen. In other words, finding out how to add buttons, layouts, screens all that.

3. The right hand side ToC is very helpful. Searching too, though it is for sure over crowded, but at least it's one line per result.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Connecting Python and .kv code is easy, but there is no documentation on this and gets frustrating fast.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

How to create a multiple screen program (screenmanager is good, but also with add_widget/remove_widget)

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

not really. they take time to watch and usually I'm just looking for a piece of code.

[T500]

Colonel Patch asked me to post this on his behalf. It's an example of the type of diagram he meant to help explain the relationship between the PY and the KV files. He said in his notes he used the google diagram he found on the google drive page. 

It would be interesting hear others views on this idea. If they find it an easier visual explanation of the relationship between these two files for a newbie? 

On Friday, 5 October 2012 23:35:10 UTC+1, tshirtman wrote:

[skeezix]

Thats getting there, but its 'too simple' and ignores many of the
problems..

Maybe..
- add a plain Widget in there, so that theres an excuse to note
that Widgets don't control anything in their children (how are size_hint,
pos_hint used)
- add a FloatLayout (say), so that by contrast can show how
pos_hint and size_hint are used
- added a few Buttons

Maybe even FloatLayout containing a Button and a GridLayout, in
turn holding some buttons (to show how nesting layotus can have different
requierments for the _hint's)

This is all very crucial stuff, since the use of pos_hint and
size_hint varies by context (not consistent), and to show the requirement
to either bind in code or dely in timing in code, that the .kv does
automatically for you.

jeff

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, T500 wrote:

# Colonel Patch asked me to post this on his behalf. It's an example of the type of diagram he meant to help explain the relationship between the PY and the KV
# files. He said in his notes he used the google diagram he found on the google drive page. 
#
# It would be interesting hear others views on this idea. If they find it an easier visual explanation of the relationship between these two files for a newbie? 
#
# [capture_001_15112012_205930.jpg]
#
#
#
#
# On Friday, 5 October 2012 23:35:10 UTC+1, tshirtman wrote:
# http://kivy.org/docs/guide/architecture.html#architecture
# Something like this? or more about the high level api usage?
#
# Le sam. 06 oct. 2012 00:14:45 CEST, Colonel Patch a écrit :
# > I'd like to back up T500 in his analysis. I have been using python for
# > about 15 years mainly small apps and utility stuff. Last year I
# > started playing with pygtk/gstreamer but hit a bit of a wall with
# > integrating the gstreamer stuff with gtk apps. Then I found Kivy and
# > discovered you guys seem to have beautifully integrated all these
# > techs into one package with the bonus of the optimized graphics. Great
# > so far. When I started messing with my own apps I struggle with the
# > docs and the code samples are poorly annotated. Explaining each line
# > and how it relates to kv file and/or python code. There seems to be a
# > fair bit of implied knowledge and it took me a while to find how to
# > link kv objects with python callbacks. Also a description of the
# > various ways to build the apps, using the three? methods and if they
# > can be mixed eg kv file+builder string + extra classes in python code.
# > Are there any advantages to the different approaches for different apps.
# > Finally a schematic might be useful to show how things relate.
# >
# > Still a fan, but waiting for the penny to fully drop!
# >
# >
# >
# >
# >
# >
# >
# > On Friday, 5 October 2012 03:48:26 UTC+1, T500 wrote:
# >
# >     1. What is your level of experience with python?
# >     I thought I was fair, but you guys blow me away :) Fair/Hobbyist
# >     written a few progs of like mediaplayers, clocks, checkers,
# >     personal privacy vaults and python/arduino controller projects
# >
# >     2. What is the first thing you look for:
# >     Getting Started, tutorials, example code, API
# >
# >     3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box,
# >     Table of content, Google?
# >     Tabbed pages of relevant topic on a bookmark. The search feature
# >     can frustrating for UIX stuff. Easy example here, Download for
# >     linux, links for instructions to Ubuntu. So for Linux in general I
# >     have to follow the link to Ubuntu, Click at the bottom back to
# >     "Install for MaxOS", then click forward to "Install for Linux" and
# >     then I have the page which includes OpenSuSE :( Using the search
# >     here would have been easier only if it was on the download page.
# >     But for most of the time I'm manually searching the API for clues
# >     and exploring reliance rather than using the search box.
# >     4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?
# >     Examples are good, slick and tidy, but single ended and difficult
# >     to expand upon. I can do small apps, Kivy is
# >     very expedient and flexible for this. But I struggle trying to
# >     leap from a small single page app to a more complex app with
# >     changing screen setups. I really can't find the glue that binds
# >     all the experience I need to learn plan that root and child and
# >     its mystical relationship with KV. I find myself bouncing between
# >     examples and the API trying to plan the structure of what I'm
# >     trying to write. I really need a leg up with understanding the
# >     styles of build, root structures need some kind of bridge in the
# >     knowledge gap between simple app and creating an app I can build
# >     on and learn and fully understand the structure.
# >
# >     5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?
# >     That mid way point tutorial between starting out and writing and
# >     building on multiple page apps with falling down pitfalls. When I
# >     figure it out in a blinding flash of logic how simple the answer
# >     was I will let you know. Its at the repetitive stage of trying
# >     different methods and building on it in trial and error, mostly
# >     the later. Its like a build it yourself furniture kit, all the
# >     parts nicely blister packed and nice pretty picture of what it
# >     should look like assembled. Really easy when you have built a few,
# >     except the door that don't seem to fit right and have some spare
# >     bits left over LOL
# >
# >     6. Would you like to see screencasts?
# >     Never tried them, sounds like a nice idea.
# >     7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation,
# >     and why?
# >     Its an older and mature project but I luv the
# >     http://faq.pygtk.org/ . It perhaps a dated style, but I like the
# >     mix of FAQ, tech info with simple examples to each topic. Its a
# >     quickfix cookbook for howto's forgotten. The thing I luv about
# >     Kivy is is not having the messy callback overheads that GTK uses
# >     and provides a simpler cleaner self contained approach.
# >
# >     I think Kivy is a great project with a good Dev team, thank you.
# >     This user loves it so much he has tried to run before he can walk
# >     and tried so hard that just cant see the wood for roots and trees.
# >     Diversity sometimes confuses the correct approach to
# >     the inexperienced :) Thanks again
# >
# > --
# >
# >
# >
#
#
# --
#  
#  
#
#

[krister viirsaar]

what would really get me to understand the whole thing would be to see the execution order. I would love to see the computer show 1 command a second and go through a complex program, back and forth between the files, with animations showing what moves where.

But if you're going for the arrows thing I would still like to see execution order. Right now I'm not sure why the arros are pointing the way they are.

[krister viirsaar]

btw, I'm an animator. Perhaps one day I can do this for you?

[Not Zippy]

When I came to Kivy I was looking for a way to do android and ios device applications. I have been a bit disappointed with what I have found for documentation. It seems very centric to desktop development then mobile or tablet development. Basic stuff like screen orientation or size is hardly mentioned.  There is some mention about screen density and auto resize, but I have yet to see any events that I can tie into for this. and then there are other inputs on devices like the accelerometer, (appears to be only accessible in a platform specific fashion)

See inline comments for questions answers

On Thursday, 4 October 2012 14:36:52 UTC-7, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

10 + Years, mostly used for scripting

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Porting was the first thing I looked for, kivy is all about being portable so what I wanted to see was how the apps are compiled to the various platforms.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

I used google (keyword plus kivy) a lot to do my searching, 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The .kv file format seems foreign, I was also found it difficult to figure out were or if I could integrate with the native device - ie putting ads in my application - or adding in app purchases.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I eventually found some information about android and ios specific stuff in blog postings - kinda the last place I would expect this documentation to be.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No, rather read with pics

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I dont think kivy docs are badly laid out, but they just seemed really lacking in the areas I was looking for. As a mobile developer there seems to be some lack in that respect.

--

[Undo]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Average.
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

API
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Google + Search Box

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Use of Graphics / Mouse events.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Use of Graphics / Mouse events / Use of directives in .py files (in opposition to in .kv files) <-- When a code from in KV language is posted on the doc without any equivalent in Python code, it's sometimes hard to "guess" the syntax from
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Would be good, yes :)
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

PHP.net : Every function has its own page. Arguments are described, their type as well. Example of use of every function...

[Rene Horn]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:52 PM UTC-5, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 

I would say that I'm probably somewhere between intermediate and advanced.  I've still got a lot of C++ habits that I need to break to become a more effective Python programmer.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

For me, it was the Programming Guide, but I did also go through the tutorial.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Usually, I try to figure out what I need from the TOC since what I'm usually looking for is some concept, and I just start from the most generalized idea listed in the TOC, and narrow it down from there.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The Kivy language is still a bit confusing to me, but I've only just begun using this. Also, I'm struggling a bit right now with how things are laid out (in so far as positioning of widgets) as well.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I would like to see more documentation on how to lay things out. A bit of a guide on where to place things, and good practices in that regard would be nice.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I really like the documentation for Qt.  It's some of my favorite.  PyJS also has good documentation for its API, and its introductory documentation (http://pyjs.org/book/Bookreader.html) is somewhat decent.

[Rene Horn]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, Rene Horn wrote:

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:52 PM UTC-5, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 

I would say that I'm probably somewhere between intermediate and advanced.  I've still got a lot of C++ habits that I need to break to become a more effective Python programmer.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

For me, it was the Programming Guide, but I did also go through the tutorial.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Usually, I try to figure out what I need from the TOC since what I'm usually looking for is some concept, and I just start from the most generalized idea listed in the TOC, and narrow it down from there.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The Kivy language is still a bit confusing to me, but I've only just begun using this. Also, I'm struggling a bit right now with how things are laid out (in so far as positioning of widgets) as well.

And Just to expand on this, there seems to be a lot of voodoo happening between the Kivy language and the Python code, and, because of that, I don't know how to make that work for me.

[Gabriel Pettier]

Hi, i've been working a bit on the new programming guide lately, and although it's not complete, the basics are there, so if you guys want to check it up, i would appreciate any feedback.

The doc tries to be to the point and to explain the concepts as simply as possible, but if you find it not to be enough, please raise your concerns.

http://kivy.org/docs/guide2-index.html

Regards

--
 
 

[skeezix]

An excellent start; I see in the Kv-lang part you've started to
put in some bits about how you would do equivilent in python as in .kv,
which is great. (A lot of this, woudl be nice ;)

- some 'handy snippets' would be good here, too -- ie: someone
will ask a question here in the list, and I'm often surprised by the bits
that come back an an answer.. commonly bits that aren't in the
documentation per se, since they're python bits, but that if you know the
kivy code you know you can use. ie: sometimes you're using kv-lang stuff,
and sometimes real python code, on the right-side part of the .kv line ..
some of those more commonly used, but not part of .kv itself, would be
nice?

- Definately add a section describing priorities in the widget
tree assignment .. ie: it is really unintuitive to figure out how to
position things, when the size hint wrestles with pos-hints and so on ..
so you end up having to declare a number of lines just to get the position
right (and some oddities like Widget not managing anything, and yet
assigning a default size of 100,100 to itself, and so on.)

- Or maybe stuff like that should be in a FAQ

- how do I take command line arguments that are not kivy
related? (ie: trim them from sys.argv before you import kivy) how come
changing the Config doesn't effect anything (do it after the import kivy,
but before anything else happens), etc.

- a question I keep having and needing to test and verify ism with
.kv files..

- if you have a root widget ("foo:") in there, what if you
laod multiple .kv files .. are they taken independantly, or do they fight
with each other? or for templates, do they carry over? do rules carry
over? (ex: I'm putting each widget of mine in a separate .kv file, and
loading them dynamicly (on demand, and from another machine via http pull)
.. I keep wondering that if after ahilw, after loading 15 different .kv
files (from strings, or from files) if they'll fight.. or if they're okay.
(It looks like they're okay so far.. each one can have its own root,
without breaking.. but not tried to see if rules/templates carry over
between Builder.from_foo() ..)

Anyway, great start, thanks for your effort :)

jeff


On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Gabriel Pettier wrote:

# Hi, i've been working a bit on the new programming guide lately, and although it's not complete, the basics are there, so if you guys want to check it up, i would
# appreciate any feedback.
#
# The doc tries to be to the point and to explain the concepts as simply as possible, but if you find it not to be enough, please raise your concerns.
#
# http://kivy.org/docs/guide2-index.html
#
# Regards
#
# Le 24/11/2012 06:07, Rene Horn a écrit :
#
#
# On Friday, November 23, 2012 10:42:24 PM UTC-6, Rene Horn wrote:
#
#
# On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:52 PM UTC-5, Mathieu Virbel wrote:
# Hi fellow users,
#
# We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
# get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
# through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
# answers inline.
#
# 1. What is your level of experience with python?
#
#  
# I would say that I'm probably somewhere between intermediate and advanced.  I've still got a lot of C++ habits that I need to break to become a more
# effective Python programmer.
#
#
# 2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
# Guide, Tutorials, API?
#
#
# For me, it was the Programming Guide, but I did also go through the tutorial.
#
#
# 3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
# of content, Google?
#
#
# Usually, I try to figure out what I need from the TOC since what I'm usually looking for is some concept, and I just start from the most generalized
# idea listed in the TOC, and narrow it down from there.
#  
#
# 4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?
#
#
# The Kivy language is still a bit confusing to me, but I've only just begun using this. Also, I'm struggling a bit right now with how things are laid
# out (in so far as positioning of widgets) as well.
#
# And Just to expand on this, there seems to be a lot of voodoo happening between the Kivy language and the Python code, and, because of that, I don't know how
# to make that work for me.
#
# 5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?
#
#
# I would like to see more documentation on how to lay things out. A bit of a guide on where to place things, and good practices in that regard
# would be nice.
#
# 6. Would you like to see screencasts?
#
#
# Yes.
#
# 7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?
#
#
# I really like the documentation for Qt.  It's some of my favorite.  PyJS also has good documentation for its API, and its introductory documentation
# (http://pyjs.org/book/Bookreader.html) is somewhat decent.

#
#
# --
#

# Thanks all :)
#
# Mathieu

[Roger Erens]

Hi,

thanks for this new impulse on documentation-improvement!

Maybe it's too early to focus on these type of visual issues, but here goes anyway:

1)

on the Basic Kivy page:

in the section 'Create an application', you might mention the name of the minimal (not minimUM, I'd say) application: "main.py".

2)

on that same page: the 'Next' link at the bottom right of the page links to the Related Topic 'Installation on Windows' whereas the Table of Contents would lead me to believe to obtain the page 'Events and Properties' next.

[Gabriel Pettier]

Le 29/11/2012 11:12, Roger Erens a écrit :

Hi,

thanks for this new impulse on documentation-improvement!

Maybe it's too early to focus on these type of visual issues, but here goes anyway:

1)

on the Basic Kivy page:

in the section 'Create an application', you might mention the name of the minimal (not minimUM, I'd say) application: "main.py".

Yes, you are right on both accounts, i'll change that :)

2)

on that same page: the 'Next' link at the bottom right of the page links to the Related Topic 'Installation on Windows' whereas the Table of Contents would lead me to believe to obtain the page 'Events and Properties' next.

Yes, i think there is a config bug there, didn't investigate yet, but thanks for pointing out, it's easy to forget those things.

thanks for the feedback :)

--
 
 

[Gabriel Pettier]

Le 29/11/2012 03:50, skeezix a �crit :

> An excellent start; I see in the Kv-lang part you've started to
> put in some bits about how you would do equivilent in python as in .kv,
> which is great. (A lot of this, woudl be nice ;)

Yes, we discussed about putting the kv along as the python in the other
parts, or to explain the python side then the kv in the lang section,
and decided to go for the latter, we think if concepts are clearly
understood before, it shouldn't be an issue to map the kv way to them,
but if you feel something is not clear enough, let us know :).

> - some 'handy snippets' would be good here, too -- ie: someone
> will ask a question here in the list, and I'm often surprised by the bits
> that come back an an answer.. commonly bits that aren't in the
> documentation per se, since they're python bits, but that if you know the
> kivy code you know you can use. ie: sometimes you're using kv-lang stuff,
> and sometimes real python code, on the right-side part of the .kv line ..
> some of those more commonly used, but not part of .kv itself, would be
> nice?

Well, sometime it's common python wisdom, not very specific to kivy, we
are thinking about this, and trying to find what common resource we
should point to so people know the python stuff useful with kivy
(partial, lambda, passing classes or methods around�)

>
> - Definately add a section describing priorities in the widget
> tree assignment .. ie: it is really unintuitive to figure out how to
> position things, when the size hint wrestles with pos-hints and so on ..
> so you end up having to declare a number of lines just to get the position
> right (and some oddities like Widget not managing anything, and yet
> assigning a default size of 100,100 to itself, and so on.)

That's part of the things you have trouble to see the issue with once
you understood them, but yeah, we'll try to expand the section about
layouts and describe the though process to design a widget tree that
looks like what you want.

> - Or maybe stuff like that should be in a FAQ

FAQ is often for the stuff you didn't find where to put, i'd avoid this
if possible, or maybe just as pointers to the right bits of the doc.

> - how do I take command line arguments that are not kivy
> related? (ie: trim them from sys.argv before you import kivy) how come
> changing the Config doesn't effect anything (do it after the import kivy,
> but before anything else happens), etc.

Hm, this may go in the next section, best practises.

> - a question I keep having and needing to test and verify ism with
> .kv files..
>
> - if you have a root widget ("foo:") in there, what if you
> laod multiple .kv files .. are they taken independantly, or do they fight
> with each other? or for templates, do they carry over? do rules carry
> over? (ex: I'm putting each widget of mine in a separate .kv file, and
> loading them dynamicly (on demand, and from another machine via http pull)
> .. I keep wondering that if after ahilw, after loading 15 different .kv
> files (from strings, or from files) if they'll fight.. or if they're okay.
> (It looks like they're okay so far.. each one can have its own root,
> without breaking.. but not tried to see if rules/templates carry over
> between Builder.from_foo() ..)

If you read the kv page of the new guide, you'll see that load_file only
return the root widget, it doesn't attach it as root of the application,
so you can use the widget that you got back, and put it somewhere, but
it's your job, the kv file automatically loaded at runtime can only have
a root widget, and this one is attached to App.root, therefore, no
conflicts.

> Anyway, great start, thanks for your effort :)
>
> jeff

Le 29/11/2012 04:19, skeezix a �crit :
> Another thought ..
>
> People seem to get confused about how Canvas works (at least I and
> a few did :) -- you might want to be careful to spell out that..
>
> Adding to a Canvas just produces a sequence of instructions,
> executed during refresh, in order; and note how you can thus drop a
> rotation or transformation in, and only the instructions that follow it
> are impacted, and that you need to undo that transformation (or
> pop-matrix) to have things occur later that aren't also effected,
I tried to make the fact it's a set of instructions clear, but it's true
a set is not usually sorted, so maybe i should say a list or sequence
instead, and write out plain they are executed at refresh by the gpu.

I didn't write about transformation, not sure it has its place here, i
fear that would drag us into a long explanation that most people don't
need (because they won't use it, not because it's easy), and that it's
better to save that for later, i may be wrong, will think about it.

> (ie: you can screw up your canvas, such that widgets not related
> to the canvas are also screwed up.)
>
> - you might also want to point out that the examples are naive,
> they tend to just do..
>
> using self.canvas:
> Rectangle()
> Circle()
> ..etc
>
> But in practice, you may want to..
>
> f = []
> for i in range(10):
> f.append ( Rectangle ( .. ) )
>
> Thus storing a reference to the object, so that you can alter it
> later.
>
> ie: the implication being that when you create the item in tyhe
> canvas it is not set in stone; only its position in the drae sequence is
> set in stone (unless altered), but the paramters of the item are not, so
> you can change them on the fly.
Yes, i don't want to give that impression either, will make that clearer

thanks for the feedback :)

> jeff

>
> --
> If everyone would put barbecue sauce on their food, there would be no war.
>
>

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, Gabriel Pettier wrote:
>
> # Hi, i've been working a bit on the new programming guide lately, and although it's not complete, the basics are there, so if you guys want to check it up, i would
> # appreciate any feedback.
> #
> # The doc tries to be to the point and to explain the concepts as simply as possible, but if you find it not to be enough, please raise your concerns.
> #
> # http://kivy.org/docs/guide2-index.html
> #
> # Regards
> #

> # Le 24/11/2012 06:07, Rene Horn a �crit :

[Antonio reKiem]

Ok, here is my contribution:

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:52 PM UTC-5, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to

get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering

through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your

answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

None 4 months ago, started to learn kivy with python at the same time (but i was really experienced in java, and 3 months working with mt4j, lots and lots of web development in Java EE and PHP, some experience in C++ and others), so it was not really hard to start doing things in python (but i have to admit i had a hard times with some concepts of the kv's, and others kivy concepts, nothing to blame you, the documentation generally is really great)

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming

Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting Started, and then API with thousands and thousands of examples and cases, each example a little more complex, like, "you did a showcase of images, what if know we need to do other things with this simple image, like..."

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table

of content, Google?

First i read the programming guide, then i search in the docs for some specific feature, then i usually end up writing my doubts here :s (not always true, almost all doubts have been answered in the docs)

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Kivy lenguaje at the begging, and i think we should need more advanced documentation to customize kivy (like in our project, many of the components doesn't fit our needs since we are building a collaborative ambient, not just for one user, but then searching how to do more specifically things... there is very little information) , things like custom fonts, graphics modifications through open gl, customize the widgets itself to add some functionality, customize the scatter to do re size behavior (not a uniform scale, a width/height independent escalation, to make a window for example), and other things, i know, we aren't brilliant and we need help for everything :s

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

 Dam, i think that answer is included in the 4 question

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Maybe, i'm not a big fan of that, i personally prefer to read tutorials (with lots and lots of images or code examples) and stuff, because that way i can go with mi own rhythm

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Kivy, its a great work, really!, but ammm i don't know many public/well known projects so i could recommend my own documentation, but its in the projects for the company that i work for :s 

--

Thanks all :)

Thanks  to you, great work with this framework!

Mathieu

Antonio Ortiz, nice to meet you XD 

[Antonio reKiem]

I forgot, learning Java EE 6 i got the oralce documentation wich is nicelly organized (i mean, there is so many... many concepts to learn at the same time, but they take you one by one with images, examples and links to the actual docs), from the most basic definitions like what is a web application itself to more complex definitions.

http://docs.oracle.com/javaee/6/tutorial/doc/

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:52 PM UTC-5, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

[krister viirsaar]

I would just like to add, that I find very frustrating seeing all the examples and API documents purely in Python. I have no Idea how to connect py and kv.

[AllisterBrizan]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 
Been using Python for 2 years. Loved PyMT then moved to Kivy to get into mobile App development.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Examples and an API reference.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Google

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

How the KV file relates to the Python code. I still don't understand some aspects of how the Builder works.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

How to use Python for Android, step-by-step without external links. The external links assume you are a java developer and are familiar with Linux + Android. Let's be realistic and assume the person reading the help is just a guy on Windows7 with a kivy program he wants to see on his Samsung Galaxy.
Likewise for the KIVY iOS

Secondly, widget properties like size and pos doesn't seem to work until you understand how they relate to size_hint and the various Layouts. The first thing somebody new to kivy will want to do is put something up on the screen. The 'hello world' example does this but does it in a way that a programmer can't extend or experiment with.
The 'hello world' example should be a couple Button(text='Hello World', size_hint=(None,None), size=(200,150), pos=(50,100)) inside a FloatLayout. This setup is intuitive although a bit longer.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not interested personally.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

The PHP online manual at http://php.net/manual/en/function.is-file.php. The simple feature of being able to comment on the manual entries allows people to improve the manual with real-world examples and details the manual may have missed, like when NOT to use a function because a better alternative exists.

[stas z]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I work as a developer on a daily basis with python for a number of years.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

API
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Google, toc.
This mailinglist is also becoming an important source of information :-)
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Combining layouts and their size_hints/pos_hints and how they interact with each other.
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

API docs with pieces of example code that demonstrate the concept and goes beyond the obvious
'hello world' examples.
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

QT, they  have some outstanding API docs with example code in which they try to explain as many concepts as possible.

[finngl]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 

Fair.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I first read Getting Started, the the tutorial. When I began writing real code, I used both Programming Guide and the API.
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of content is my preferred way.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

ListViews.
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Nothing in particular. Everything should be documented ;-)
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No. I prefer to read text.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Django. Because it is well-written and well-structured.

[Théo D.]

I find the work on the programming guide 2 very interesting so far.
Keep that way. Lots of examples with explanations is definitely a good way to go. I can't wait to see what will be put in "Best practices".

--
 
 

[marlus araujo]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 6:36:52 PM UTC-3, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Beginner, I'm learning Python motivated by Kivy. I came from Interactive Design, and as programmer I've worked with AS3, Java/Processing, C++/oF.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

• Key concepts: understand what is the tool, features, differences for other libs, roadmap
  
• Getting started: how to install, how to run, basic examples
  
• API: view the big picture, all the classes and features, and see if it's well explained and have examples/snippets 
  
• Tutorials: real world example, showing how is the workflow with screenshots to demo how the work is evolving: important if we are doing graphic interface

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of content, if it's difficult to find, search and google

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

I think it's the documentation ;)

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

 

• 3D support
• other libs that works well together with Kivy
• targeted content:
• basic, intermediary, begginer
• Desktop, Android, iOS
• Apps, Games, Multimedia installations
• Hardware: Arduino, Kinect, Leap

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes, but more for new users. In my opinion, list some talkings about kivy for concepts is good.

Also screencasts for things like I was searching here: "installing kivy on windows", "configuring kivy on pydev", "building kivy from sublime text", etc. I would like to watch a "unboxing kivy" video, and other workflows.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Processing: http://processing.org/reference/

they focus on people who wants to learn programming, so it is well organized, some examples have images, showcase libs that can work together

Symphony CMS: http://getsymphony.com/learn/

could have much more tutorials, but they have a nice getting started section, very contextualized in order to show the key concepts 

 

Thanks all :) 

Mathieu

Thank you for Kivy, I'm expect to do great stuff with it and see its evolution.

Kivy was one big motivation for me to learn Python!

[com...@motaj.com]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

Intermediate

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

Getting Started

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google? 

Table of contents

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Structure of the examples (see below)

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

When I started learning about kivy, the kivy guide informed me that using .kv files is the best way to use kivy. But when I delve deeper into the examples mentioned on kivy website I find that the examples are written in pure python which is quite contrary to the advice you give in the introduction. Hence I'd like better integration of .kv construction in your examples (I do find .kv to  be so much easier to maintain than pure python way) 

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

Neutral to this issue

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

Can't recall :P (Maybe because of my limited programming experience I haven't come across many such projects)

[marlus araujo]

Hello everybody, as we are talking about documentation, I also suggest discuss the use of Google Groups new features:

http://learn.googleapps.com/groups/groups-how

Web2py-users group is using after this thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/web2py/trtS-S-4exs

FYI, we have enabled a number of the new features Google has recently introduced to the Google Groups web interface, such as:

Question asker can mark favorite response, which will get displayed at the top of the responses.
Question responses can be up/down voted.
"Me too" a question without submitting a separate reply.
Edit your own posts, so if you make a mistake, you can fix it in place rather than posting a separate correction.
Mark topic as "no response needed".
Filter topics based on a number of attributes.
This is in addition to some other recently added features, such as code highlighting, tagging, different post types (question, discussion, announcement), etc.


I encourage you to use the web interface (as opposed to email) to take advantage of these features (that will also keep your email address out of the posts). In the left sidebar, you can keep links to a list of favorite Google Groups, so it's easy to track all your Google Groups in one place.


Anthony

[Yurij Mikhassiak]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Almost new to programming.  

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting started 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Google then search box, this group, table of content.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

interaction between kv file and python. I do not understand how buid works, what is the difference in different methods to start app.: DemoApp().run() vs runTouchApp(widget=None, slave=False) 

How to adress nonroot widgets and root widget instance from other objects.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More datails on existing stuff aspacially using kv language. 

Optimal app. structure, rules of translation  python examples to kv, 

examples of how to change kv properties using events..  

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

YES it's my favorite studying style. 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Arduino. Great how-to library. Easy even for people with ~0 electronics and programming experience: http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/HomePage

also I hope there will be a way to have forum support for each topic.

 

--

Thanks, Yurij

[ZenCODE]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

Intermediate, not a Pythonista...yet

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming

Guide, Tutorials, API? 

Tutotials, then API. Think the current scheme with Kivy using Sphinx is perfect.

Another really powerful source here in the examples you include. I often do a search through their content to clarify kv/python interaction.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table

of content, Google?

Google if it's a quickie, otherwise PDF + search. Links in PDF (as you currently have) to relevant class definitions are very helpful, essential actually.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Not so many are that difficult, but it's very different to normal GUI programming, coming from a desktop MFC/wx/GTK background). A few gotchas are:

    OpenGL + canvas: lists of drawing instructions vs. drawing directly to a normal Win32/cairo canvas

    Handling keyboard input for mobile vs. desktop

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More detail on methods and their behaviour e.g. the add_widget/remove_widget documentation does not mention the index parameter.

Another helpful one is guidelines on how to setup Kivy for a dev environment (for autocomplete, immediate doc string access etc). For example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9768489/kivy-eclipse-and-pydev-also-pypy

One aspect that could be made more explicit in the docs is building multi-screen apps via the screen manager. Although it's incredibly simple once you see it. Maybe just a simple code examples (in your demo folder) would  suffice?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not important for me

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

The Python project itself. You don't even need to be online the documentation so complete. It does tend to be a bit technical, but it covers everything with examples where appropriate.

All that said, overall I think the Kivy documentation is great. It's nicely laid out and easily seach-able with the PDF and website versions always current. You're definitely heading in the right direction.

Lastly, thanks for all the good work. You have achieved something to be proud of. Kivy rocks!

--

Peace out

ZenCODE 

 

[Jacopo]

On Thursday, 4 October 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

intermediate

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

 

getting started

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

TOC

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

graphic layout (kv language included)

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

graphic layout in depth

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

nope

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

jquery, because it's very clear.

[Niko Skrypnik]

пятница, 5 октября 2012 г., 0:36:52 UTC+3 пользователь Mathieu Virbel написал:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Nice, I earn money with it and develop with Python more than 5 years in web development and desktop apps development. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

API and Tutorials 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

I mostly like to use Google - just type some phrase I need and find answer this way. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Layouts - I look at it as HTML/CSS developer and for me some things are not clear. Especially z-level of the index - I see that some widgets higher or lower than other but can't figure out how to set it in kv files or other way 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Some useful tooltips maybe.  

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Sometimes but usually good documentation is fair enough 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

 Projects with good docs? Python, Django :-). For me python has excellent docs - just module description, description of it's classes and functions and examples. Django has good docs aswell/

[happ...@gmail.com]

Dear developers,

I'd like to thank you very much for this awesome project!

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

    Novice. Am just starting out with Python. Used it for django and some small projects

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

   Examples, I usually need to see a working project to get the feel of the whole framework. The Pong example was great, would have loved more examples, maybe examples that are more complex (especially with layout). I check out the API only as I go along the project.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google?

   Table of content. (I actually didn't notice there was a search box)

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

   As a complete beginner now, i would say its layouts. Also, I have just been able to port the pong app to an android phone, using ubuntu as os, and it was really hard to run after all the needed dependencies (thank God for the forums)

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

   As of now, I can't say what to add

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

    Yes, would be helpful!

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

    The Django project and the official Android developer documentations were very helpful when I was starting out, particularly because of their examples.

[happ...@gmail.com]

I want to add from the past days:

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

   AIt was very hard to get started on more complex projects, if your app doesn't match any of the examples. A way to prevent this is maybe to have a full working GUI tutorial, even just a few components, maybe a user input, or notes list (like the one on the android developer side). Hopefully one that also works on android or IOS

[Tonton enz]

Hello,

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I use Python every day since 13 years : webserver, websocket, sql, orm, matplotlib, Pyside, crawler, rpc, gevent...

I'm not a programmer, I'm working in systems and networks.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I'm looking for good documentation in first : programming guide and tutorials.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of content in first and google next.

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Graphics for me, I use lib as wx, qt, gtk. OpenGL is new for me.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

- how to interact with other libs : matplotlib if possible for example,

- more information or integration of kivy-particle

- more examples in widget customise 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No I don't like neither screencast neither pdf doc.It's difficult to navigate. 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I like : django, bottlepy, peewee.

--
J.H

[MintyAnt]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Beginner - Intermediate.

I'm a C++/C# programmer by heart, but i've only used Python for a few months.

I have done a lot to understand the intricacies of Python in that time, however.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

Tutorials. 

There is no better way to learn than the hands on approach, imho.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google? 

Google.

Ideally i'd find answers on StackOverflow, which is also where I posted most of my problems.

Generally I find the API for the kivy thing i'm looking at.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

.kv files, properties, and proper use of widgets!

At a simple level, these are straightfoward to due, since we have the pong tutorial to work from.

But once you get into more complex widgets, or more combinations of them, the right way to do something gets blurred.

Take the scrollview for example. There is a specific set of things you have to do before you get the scrollview to work properly. But the doc page barley skims of these. It at least mentions them, but it still took me half a week to get it working.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Documentation pages for widgets only contain the code side of things.

I think they need to contain:

-Both the code way and the kv way to define widgets

-One way shows a complicated method (adding a list of widgets), the other shows the most barebones basic thing.

I remember the ScrollView example was only using a GridLayout. So my code had a grid layout in it for a week because nothing was working, and I just started doing exactly what the doc said. A better working base would have been the bare minimum.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Python itself has some stellar documentation.

Unity documentation is usually pretty good stuff. They provide an example in all 3 of their script languages, and usually an explanation of the system you're looking at, even screenshots!

I'm not the biggest fan of Apples API for their Objective-C code, but i'd be lying if it didn't cover my ass many times.

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:36:52 PM UTC-4, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

[Marcel Maré]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate. Experienced with web apps, wxpython GUI, CLI scripts.  

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

All of the above, in that order.  What's missing are how-to's pertaining to a specific goal or problem.

A book or two would be nice ;-)

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

When learning: TOC first, then search box.

When having particular problems: Google  

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

KV language. You can do things (a lot really) in KV, or in python. In the beginning it's hard to find the right balance. KV properties and the relation to their python counterparts. 

I had trouble with navigating  the object tree. At some point I had something like self.parent.parent.parent.parent.parent.do_something(). Some recommendations/examples would be nice.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Better install instructions for OSX. Just the Kivy.app is not enough. One needs an IDE (or IPython to inspect running apps. A how-to detailing on how to get everything running on OSX with Homebrew was sorely missed.  

Kivy does things differently from other frameworks: more comprehensive conceptual information (how and why) would be helpful.

Better life cycle description: how/when is KV loaded. What are the hooks?

ReadTheDocs type API reference. 

Detailed walkthroughs of example programs of increasing complexity. 

More structure to the examples: showcase kitchensync examples, single topic examples, complete apps 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes please.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

SciPy and Flask are OK. Python also.

The current Kivy docs are not bad at all, just not enough and somewhat disorganised. 

Thanks for all your great work!

 

[DanielK]

Hello, 

thanks for this project. It looks simple enough to give me one excuse less to try out some gui-programming;).

Please keep on going!

Daniel

Am Donnerstag, 4. Oktober 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2 schrieb Mathieu Virbel:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I guess good for a hobby programmer, somewhere above beginner level if compared to real python programmer. No experience with gui-developement. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

1) Quick start / Getting started / Cheat sheets etc to get a quick overview.

2) Tutorials, both reading and practicing, trying to grasp the concepts

3) Programming Guide

4) Example code: To me this seems to be more and more important.

5) API: good reference, but mostly only after being comfortable with the package itself.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

1) Google

2) TOC

3) Search on the doc site (mostly a habit, not because it is not useful...) 

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Sorry, no answer yet, see point 5. 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Integration into an existing python installation (the standalone installation is nice for a start), for all target platforms (though I am currently mainly interested in Win 7).

Kivy requires many additional software packages:

1) which ones?

2) description how to install python packages using pip or easy_install

3) description how to install software like gstreamer (in my case on win7 64 bit)

4) Adding paths and other configuration stuff.

5) ...

I know it is not very fair to ask that of the kivy project (feeling responsible for installation of third party modules...). But on the other hand, kivy is aimed to be multi-platform, so a thorough description how to set it up would really a great help :).

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No, I would stick with easy to understand / good commented examples.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Python documentation itself: very complete, many code examples included for better understanding

ZODB: good introduction

Pyro: good introduction

sphinx-doc: a great help.

matplotlib: I like the graphs with the linked code. That makes adopting easier. On the downside: some code samples seem more complicated than necessary.

scipy-lectures: All there that is needed to start and improve quickly

[P.O]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

in love, 3 years, mainly django and scripting

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

When I first landed on Kivy.org -> Getting Started

But quickly my main focus became API

Thoughts : 

 - The quick explaination + example at the begining of each component is very very useful

 - It is painful to scroll all the page to see wich methods/properties are available for a specific class

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google? 

Table of content

Thoughts : 

 - Painful to allways scroll the table of content, it would be great to be centered on the current component (ex : I'm checking the doc of Button -> the table of content should be centered on kivy.uix.Button)

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Most of the concepts are quite easy to understand but I currently have troubles subclassing widgets (ex: I want to make a Button with a couloured border)

Note : It's my first kivy project/experience

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

I would say that nothing is missing.

I would put an emphasis on the Garden though. I found myself searching for external widgets/libs etc. At the moment I can't see a lot of flowers in the garden.

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

I'm not a fan of screencasts.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

Django : every time I need something, it exists, I can find it quickly and the documentation makes me understand quickly (I like examples)

iOS SDK : For each class there is a quick explaination of the concepts related to it and a table of content of methods/properties

Thank you for making Kivy, I just love the fact that I can make python NUI apps running on all devices.

Le jeudi 4 octobre 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel a écrit :

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

[HT]

1. Intermediate. 12 months of hobbyist coding with intent to make products to sell.

2. Getting started. I usually skip the Hello World and look for a tutorial with more meat but never actually follow it as I'm looking for example code.

3. Always Google.

4. Not enough experience to say yet.

5. Storing data, authentication.

6. No, I never use screen-casts as the content is not searchable. I skim pages before reading anything.

7. Django. They explain everything is plain English and have a tone of example code.

[Lord Max]

hi

1. What is your level of experience with python?

intermediate to pro.
Many years and many enterpriseproject in "salsa" python + php

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

1 - Getting start
2 - Examples
3 - Tutorial... to see the availability
4 - Programming guide
5 - API
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

All of the above and ML
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Mixing python and kv language... sometimes it seems just magic and examples don't help much
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Examples, more and more examples 'cause they're not so easy to use. There's some very basic and one very complex, nothing in the middle
How to: there's always a lack of howtos in every project
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

No. I think it's a waste of time.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Django
QT
php manual

For the reasons already expressed

 

[Noob Saibot]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

--Somewhere between Beginner and Intermediate.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

--Tutorials first, User Gide second, API third.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

--Google

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

--The Kivy language is deceptively complex to grasp (especially as it relates to python). If someone wants to get their feet wet with something simple (like a simple Navigation bar &Scroller page :-) ), they would't jump to the 50 page Programming Guide. They would look at a tutorial, or example of something similar, and try to piece together their own thing (i.e., "I'll just do what this guy did and put my x-function here, my y-class there, and my custom function should probably go here. Done...now why won't it work?"). The problem is, the Kivy language has too many nuances (like how "root" is a special keyword in Kivy and not just a convenient variable name choice), and the examples are either too simplistic (like how positioning with simple buttons is way different from positioning Widgets), or too difficult (define root widget tree in the Kv file and then call "root = super(MyApp, self).build()". Why not "super(...).__init__()"?). This leads to conversations like this:

Beginner: Why can't i do this simple-thing? It can't be this hard..."
Experienced Kivy Developer: Read the Programming Guide.
Beginner: That long thing?? Look, all I want is this simple thing. Just what am I missing?
Experienced Kivy Developer: Read the Programming Guide.

Also, the API is difficult to understand.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

--A high-to-low level explanation of the SDK & some sort of walkthrough example that encompasses the majority of Kivy's features and nuances.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

--That might be helpful, but I could live without it.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

-- For the API: I think NumPy's API is very well done. They group the functions hierarchically, as well as give explanations for the higher levels (user guide).
-- For the Programming Gude: I think the Asynchronous Programming tutorial for Twisted is VERY good. They start off by giving the reader a "big-picture" explanation of the topic(s) an working down to the details. It even includes a useful case that the author builds upon throughout the tutorial. With Kivy's Programming Guide, I feel like it focuses on generality with important details sparsely inserted in.

8. One note on the in-document examples:
--I think you should fix the in-documentation examples. They are just too esoteric and vague. For example, when reading through the "Events and Properties" guide, it's unclear what an "Event" is, let alone WHEN to use one and WHY. Given the fact that the term is never defined, the beginner has no choice but to use the in-document examples to infer what is going on; however, the examples provided are vague do-nothing functions with elements like, "MyEventDispatcher", "my_callback()", "do_something()", "print 'I am dispatched', args", etc. By the end, the response from the reader is something like, "Umm...ok. I THINK I get the gist..."

As I was reading through this, the impression I incorrectly gathered about Events were that they were functions in your code that were not GUI-related (e.g., function that handles the logic for gravity in your game). Imagine a beginner trying to code a simple ball rolling widget, then posting their code asking for help because their gravity is all messed up (luckily, my suspicions enabled me to do a quick Wikipedia search before this happened :-) ). That person would then be referred to the "examples" folder containing richer examples of Events in-use. The beginner, abandoning his already flawed knowledge of what he thinks is substance-less documentation, would try to mimic the examples and get nowhere.

Bottom-Line: I like Kivy and am excited to see where it goes, but right now the documentation isn't good for beginners and the Kv language could be abstracted more.

Please excuse my very long rant :-).

[Jump Jack]

What I really missed in the documentation at the begining was a tutorial aout how to build an interactive app: click a button, activate a function in python source, get something changed in the interface. It's not exactly a straightforward application in kivy!

[Luis Bill]

1) Good
2) Programming Guide
3) google
4) how to run the program. Sometimes I want to mix kivy with other programs like pygame, or to control something else, and I have a hard time sharing data between kivy modules and my other modules, and the documentation does not really help on tips of how to interface with other modules
5) how to share data between multiple modules, instead of having the entire program in one module. For instance, in one window/module you have an OpenGL cube, and in another window/module you have a GUI that can be use in order to interact with the cube. Things of that sort I think are very important to learn how to use in order to make the kivy.org tutorials 100% useful
6) Sure, anything extra always helps. Its like having extra underwear...you can never have too much.
7) No kivy projects have great documentation. I think PyQt does a much better job at documenting than kivy does.

Do you know what I mean?


Thanks for asking us for feedback!

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:36:52 PM UTC-7, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?


--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

[Jump Jack]

See "Lack of good "Hello World" example" thread in Development Section for my suggestions  (how do I link a thread?!?)

[Jamas Enright]

On Friday, 5 October 2012 10:36:52 UTC+13, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Above basic, can get by with occasional googling, but nothing advanced.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting started and tutorials.

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Mainly google.

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? / 5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

Using the kv language for everything. Especially how to dynamically change positions and appearance of widgets during the program run. 

It seems to me that the API guides are more about using the kivy language in the middle of code, and not setting it up in a .kv file and referencing that.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

 

Sure!

[mats-wolf]

1. Novice python programmer but making progress.

2. Getting started and tutorials.

3.Table of contents

4.For Now everything is new to me and complicated as i have never developed for multitouch devices.

5.Not sure what subjects you mean but i would like for the documentation to consider first timers.

6.Yes i would.

7.Django has really good documentation, i think its because it considers developers at all levels.

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

[and...@zoho.com]

Dear mathieu,

I think its good that your project trys to get it documented properly, there is still a load to do i think. I guess i can give quite some input.

To your questions:

1. Advanced beginner

2. a good tutorial, but especially an easy understandable description of the most used functions and classes and how to invoke them properly. 

Some of this i can take from the code snippets in the examples but it would be good to have an 

Cheat sheet on all types of commonly used classes and functions. That is easily accessible for beginners.

3. Search engine its hard to navigate otherwise as many things are deep hidden and hard to find.

4. The documentation.

5. i would like to build something like your shader example with own variables and create moving shaders, textures and such stuff.

I looked at the plasma.py example but i really would like to create something like this with my own variables and a random function, i have no idea how to start with that because its quite different from the approach you have.

also i cannot really understand you documentation about this: http://kivy.org/docs/guide/advancedgraphics.html ....

It would be great if you could extend the examples in the kivy installer and give a bigger variety of examples.

Also i want to create a game based on tiles, i have no idea where to start there but i guess thats documented in the web somewhere.

If you want to improve the documentation you might try to do it topical. Think about possible programs and give a step after step introduction how to make a specific program instead of unrelated tutorials.

6. not using screencasts yet.

7. in the range of programming tutorials? 

Pygame has a good documentation, the best doc was a cheat sheet on the homepage only one picture describing the basic functions. Right now the homepage seems down so i cannot link it.

[Ben Rousch]

There are some more code snippets, examples, and tutorials at http://wiki.kivy.org/

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kivy-users+...@googlegroups.com.
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--
 Ben Rousch
   bro...@gmail.com
   http://clusterbleep.net/

[and...@zoho.com]

Thankyou.

If you want to improve the documentation and have manpower to do that you could just start out with the advanced graphics secion that i need now ;)

[Julien Coron]

Hi all,

My answers:
1. level of experience with python : advanced beginner
2. first thing you look for : Getting Started
3. navigate and search the documentation : Search box + Google
4. difficult concepts in kivy : non heterogeneity of colors (sometimes list or array or values) + ListItemButton with his layers of colors + placement of widgets in layouts
5. subjects I would like to see in the documentation : how to code some screenshots ("a list with 3 informations on multi-line and one arrow" ; "how to build a background-repeat like CSS does" ; "how to build a sprite image and use it for your buttons (like the background-position in CSS)")
6. screencasts : too long to watch, not search-able. I prefer samples of code.
7. projects having great documentation : I don't know... maybe CodeIgniter, but the community gives more answers than Elislab. No one is perfect in this domain...


Thanks for the job on this project !

Julien

[zeller...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

intermediate

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

getting started

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

 the api reference box with ctrl+f or google

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

widget position  and size are not set by the layout (at least with those I tried, float, stack, box)

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

more about event handling and widget positioning

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

no unless a written documentation is included about the covered topic

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

official java docs, because they're extensive and thorough

[Eric Kiser]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

• Fair, been using it for scripting
  

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

• Tutorials - to get a feel of it 

• API - to see its status and completeness and if it can do what needs to be done.
  

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

• Search Box
  

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

• The kivy language - actually we just need more advance usage of it.
  

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

•  More on how kv language works with your main app, I mean the proper way to interact with it
  

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

•  Absolutely!!!
  

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

• hmmmmm....
  

--

[DeadZero]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 Learning Noob, (on and off for about 2 months) Recently new to python and Kivy, reason I choose kivy was because of the OOP / Widgets etc

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting Started to Install, Examples to see how it hangs together, what I don't understand I search, or look at the content table, currently reading the widgets section in the programming guide, but as a post below some info not obvious to a thicko like me( colour background post from kivy example) 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Search Box, if I am unable to understand the result, I check here or stack overflow to see examples of it , in case any one else has searched for clarification. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

kv file seem like magic to a beginner, I'm actually scared to use them as I don't feel if I know what my program is doing(compared to me writing the code out in python) , maybe I am over thinking it,  but I do need to spend more time with kvlang , once I am more comfortable programmer 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

lots of examples with lots of comments, examples such as a basic game loop, custom widgets, database based app?, 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

yes, at different experience levels would be cool 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Can't really comment, I only just picked up python from python.org and then came across yourselves when searching of android and python programming, can't fault your doc's , they have got me working and playing around lol

 

[zest rico]

Hello

1. What is your level of experience with python?
 

  low level, i have begin to learn python 2 month ago, already experienced with php and javascript. 

   

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Tutorials ( articles and videos ), programming guides 

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

google

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

[Benjamin Ward]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:36:52 PM UTC-4, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate, been using Python 3 about since it came out, on and off, but have been using Pygame until I found Kivy.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

The first thing that I looked for on your website was the Getting Started, then the tutorials.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Making larger apps seems more difficult, to me, as the Crash Courses (Thank you Alexander Taylor!) have not gotten to that, yet (at least not before where I am), and there seems to be little that we can study to learn about that, except for looking at the examples.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I would like to see more of how to use kv language and Python together (more interaction) and more examples in your docs. In the metrics documentation, there is an example which helped me to figure it out, and I would like to see more similar situations.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Why not?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I haven't read enough projects yet, so I apologize (as I cannot answer this question at the moment).
 
A final question: Can you use comments on the python side of kv language? I have seen no one do that yet, and have been wondering this for a while. (I know I could test it, but still).

Benjamin Ward - TheProgramm3r

[2he...@gmail.com]

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

Beginner

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming 
Guide, Tutorials, API? 

Examples

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table 
of content, Google? 

Google, Search Box

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Interaction between KV and python

Layout of Widgets

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

The documentation is already excellent this is what has cause me trouble trying to learn kivy:

how to navigate between screen using screen manager (when called from buttons, lists, etc)

actions that are available when loading screens exiting

How to load unload content for application speed

Concepts of how to design basic types of applications or when to use KV language and when to use python

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

I am not sure they would add value for me.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

I think you already have great documentation.

The challenge is having a section for beginners like me so they can quickly get up to speed designing simple multi screen applications with the basics content:

This is what I had to learn in the past 48 hours and it was painful:

Set background image for a screen

manual navigation between screens of screen manager

capturing the hardware back button

icon image for buttons

add button actions (still don't know how to do it from python)

play video and destroy video

how to create lists for navigation (still can't get the list button to navigate)

how to layout screens with information on them.

read info from a database and populate screen

creating simple forms and storing the information.

How to populate screens dynamically based on external data.

How to have good automatic layout of this dynamic content (like picture, videos, text)

Comment:

Thank you for your hard work, I am amazed at the amount of effort that has been put into this project.

[Jacek Nowak]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Fair, I've made a bunch of python games and utilities using tkinter and pygame, as well as designing and building a few still to be finished startup web applications with django. 

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

This order: Tutorials, Programming Guides, API references

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

This order: ToC, Search box, Google

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

kv syntax and dependencies within class tree. The concept of "root" object referring to a local tree root and not to the current application root object. It took me a few days fighting with kv to finally understand how it works and get things done the way I want them to work. I guess that stressing one simple thing in the docs would make it much easier - the usage of capital first letter to decide if the word means property or subclass in a kv tree.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

How to optimize the app before deployment - how to strip down unused modules, how to speed up loading time, how to compile crucial app parts using cython (if possible). 

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not really, written tutorials with screenshots are easier to follow and find.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I'd point pygame and django as the best documented python projects I know. Especially django with the separate docs system for every release and detailed tutorial discussing all the basic features and giving hints about advanced ones.

[Brendan Scott]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:36:52 AM UTC+10, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Hobbyist for 6 years or so. 
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Depends.  When first learning Kivy, the order you list (maybe tutorials second). When I come back to it now I go to the API then tutorials/code examples.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Google mostly.  I find the API's table of contents sidebar a little hard to navigate.  And once you're in the API it doesn't allow you to get back to the rest of the documentation (tutorials etc) easily.  It'd be nice to have the code from the examples directly linked.
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Interactions between different things making up Kivy - particularly the app vs the UI widget and the python code vs the kv file.   The referencing to me seems to be a little too implicit so it's hard to work out what's related to what and how things are strung together - eg linking an ObjectProperty to a widget via an id, implicit loading of the kv file based on app name. 

with canvas:  seems a little like black magic (I expect with canvas as c: c.Line...)

Imports in the kv file (although this is possibly more a syntactical thing).

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

A lot of the documentation has code snippets.  When learning a concept I want to be able to cut and paste into a file and run/tweak it to see how it changes.  Any snippet more than 6 lines or so would be better in a full, but skeleton, application.

An explanation of how kivy's approach is different from "core" python's <- if I had a feel for an underlying principle I think I'd find the app vs widget vs kv file thing a little easier.

A discussion of how kivy graphics are different from (eg) pygame or Tkinter graphics.
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Not really.  If I had the choice between documentation and a screencast that covered the same thing, I'd prefer the documentation.  I have watched kivy videos from conventions.  They've been useful in a general sense, but not when I'm actually coding something.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

 

Tkinter, pygame, python - I can google search anything and I'll usually get something relevant.

You should also consider stackoverflow and IDE plugins as being part of the documentation.    A syntax highlighter for kv files makes a lot of difference (I use Eric primarily) - other things like autocompleters and auto comment would be helpful too.

Thanks

Brendan

[Pavel Hanpari]

Dne čtvrtek, 4. října 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2 Mathieu Virbel napsal(a):

Hi fellow users,

1. What is your level of experience with python?

      Hobbyist with 2-3 months of Python experience. Checkio level 8 :)

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

     Pong tutorial is great and still best reference for me. I am reading your pdf file regulary.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

     
          1/ Google  is almost worthless with kivy probably because of not enough experienced users and solved problems.
          2/ Using this forum is really really painful. :( I am sorry to say it but it is really hard to use.
          3/ From the start I had really trouble to make kivy work as I expected. I found the docs pages rather confusing when I am trying to find more about kv language. But I am getting better :)

           

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

        Till now I solved my trouble with help of your. But as mentioned before I was struggling with ScreenManager. But maybe it was my beginners troubles. I am not using ScreenManager and I am happy.
         I had hard time to get a grip of kv language but I really love it. Now works for me better.
         I think your provided examples are great but they are lacking comments, mainly for beginners would be great if the code of lines were commented. I believe that from your point of view is everything clear but believe me, it is not at all.
     

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

       one page list of kivy framework with classes and properties for quick reference 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

       If you mean youtube tutorials then yes. Mr. Alexander Taylor is doing great job.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

       Unity pages with their easy to understand examples and great vid tutorials and easy to find references.

         http://docs.unity3d.com/Documentation/ScriptReference/index.html

PS: I want to really thank your for your great work.

Pavel

[Bruce Cropley]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Many years of using it for scripting, several years using it for libraries, applications etc. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Before choosing Kivy, I Googled for tools for mobile device apps with Python, and read some comparisons and reviews. The above listed documentation has all been of great use, as have the examples, the IRC channel and this forum.

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table  

of content, Google?

Mainly Google. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

 

Initially, kvlang and positioning. Now, packaging.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

One or more bigger public domain apps that use lots of kivy features, and have been

approved for distribution on all supported platforms.

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes, but it's not a big priority for me now.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Python? I guess it's mainly how long a project has been around and how many users there are. Documentation is not the main thing that keeps me using Kivy, it is the amount of info about it on the net, and the great support on the IRC channel that help me the most.

Thanks again,

Bruce

[Brendan Scott]

When you do update the API documentation I'd like to be able to have somewhere where I can just copy and paste an import line:
from kivy.whatever.whatever import whatever
into the code. (it'd be nice for this to be auto generated)
ATM the module names are hyperlinked and hard to actually copy.

[Alexander Taylor]

Bruce (and anyone else who's indicated an interest in screencasts), have you seen my Kivy crash course videos? The first one is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UKmK9eQLY .

If people would like my to cover any particular topics, I'm happy to take suggestions and requests.

[Dave Finnerty]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:36:52 PM UTC-4, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I would say moderate to advanced.  I have been using Python for years as a system admin. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I am old school and look for the "HEllo World" type app first, then getting started, then demos with code, then API to build what I have in mind. 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Search Box and Google. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Pulling in Android Libs into kivy while coding on a Linux machine.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

'

 Using third party frameworks like box2d with Kivy.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

One series.  Make an app that is something simple (rss reader that pulls kivy.org.

Go through the steps to make

• Linux
  
• windows
  
• Mac
  
• Android
  
• IOs
  

version of the app

publish finished apps, and source code.

Then maybe something working on graphics on the various platforms.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

• Django
  
• They have an active community building tutorials and the API is well documented.  Also they only project that popped into my head. 

[Aseem Bansal]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 3:06:52 AM UTC+5:30, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

Not a newbie. Not at intermediate either. Look at my Github anshbansal if you want to check for youself.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

  A downloadable documentation/API and a tutorial with examples.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

 Table of content if the documentation is good. Otherwise google. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Today is my first day experimenting with kivy so I'll talk about the only thing that I found lacking documentation. Which class has which attributes in kv file. Maybe this doc is present but unable to find so far.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

A download button for offline viewing. Adding anything else will require me to spend some more time with Kivy.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

If they are for making an actual project - slightly bigger than a pong game and focused on Windows platform -  then I will take a look. I am currently trying Kivy out for Windows so that's why the bias. Haven't been able to find a GUI toolkit with decent documentation, wysiwyg editor and helpful community. One of them is always lacking - Tkinter, PySide, PyQt and one more whose name I don't remember.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Oracle's Java documentation. Beats even the official Python documentation. Reason is simple.  It is very easy to find things due to the layout and the explanation is precise. I would add that Oracle's Java tutorial is also very good. 

[oly]

On Thursday, 4 October 2012 22:36:52 UTC+1, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

experienced
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

usage examples for the various functions
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

google mainly
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

advanced graphics and how to work with kivy.
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

more examples of working with opengl scenes shaders multiple models etc
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

generally prefer docs which i can follow at my own pace
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

python most of the docs for the various librarys have api document and include usage snippets along the way.

[Patrick Boelens]

 On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate - Advanced
 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Typically I would start with either reading a Getting Started section or a hands-on (video) tutorial, followed by whichever I didn't do first. This to get a high-level idea of the framework, how it works, how it's set up, etc. After that I tend to give the API docs a look to see how complete they are, as well as to get an idea of how properties and methods are exposed.
 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

If I'm looking for a widget of a certain type, but don't know the exact name (say, a "loading bar" (ProgressBar)), I go through the API reference content box. If I do know the name, I usually use the search.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

From my own experience:

- Widget sizes. They are dependant on quite a lot of different properties. Sizehints, sizes, parent sizes. When placed within a (Grid)Layout, things like row_default_height and row_force_default also come into play with this. There's also the "issue" of widgets or layouts not being able to "grow as needed". This is an issue I ran into trying to make a GridLayout that automatically set its (column) width to the (largest) string inside it.

- Widget positioning. Pretty much an extension of my previous point, with the added "difficulty" of an AnchorLayout. Imho, it would be far more intuitive to be able to position widgets more freely, for example by attaching anchors to widgets directly. It also doesn't help that AnchorLayouts can only have one child. This seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

- Layouts. In general, I found most Layouts easy to get started with, but hard to master. Things like the way a GridLayout's entire row or column scaled, instead of just a single cell, or how/ where a FloatLayout is positioned. Perhaps a dedicated, detailed page on all Layouts might be a nice addition.

- Binding to setters. Perhaps I simply missed a more obvious explanation of this, but it seems a bit buried for something so seemingly essential.

- Hidden methods and properties. When extending from the AsyncImage class I needed to bind a callback to whenever the texture was fully loaded. With the documentation linking to Loader, ProxyImage and on_load(), it took me a while (and a dive into the source) to find _on_source_load(). I can't remember where, but I've had to dive into the source a couple of other times as well to find some "hidden" properties. Perhaps these could be made clear on their respective API pages (even if under an "internal" tab/ header).

- Styling. Questions like "how can I change this ProgressBar's bar image/ TextInput's background?" seem to pop up often, yet sometimes can be remarkably hard to find.

- FocusBehavior. This may be specific to my TextInput case, but I found it a bit odd to discover I "had" to reimplement keyboard_on_key_down() in order to prevent the input from being swallowed. I'm aware this combo is a can of worms though, but I had to mention it. ;)

- Canvas (KV Laguage). It appears most documentation relating to the Canvas was written for Python rather than KV. It would be nice to have a page detailing all the different ways of drawing in KV.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I think I accidentally combined questions 4 and 5... To add to that though, I would love to see some pages detailing how exactly a certain property or element could/ should be used (in relation/ comparison to others), like Layouts for instance. Other subjects could include things like the afore-mentioned sizing and positioning or KV draw commands.
 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

I am a big fan of video tutorials, especially when just starting out with a new library/ framework, but I wouldn't place it as a high priority for the Kivy team. I think this is a need that may be addressed by the community (in due time(.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

The only other project docs that spring to mind are Blender's. They're pretty all-encompassing, and very clear. There is both a user manual (to describe how features work ("high-level")) and scripting API docs ("low-level"). I always found this a nice separation, which might be somewhat applicable here as well.
 

[Chris Atthestudy]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I've been using it for personal projects for several years, and have also experimented with PyGame (with some success).

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting Started, then Tutorials

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of contents first, then Search box, and I fall back on Google if neither of those produce anything useful.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

I struggled a bit with the link between kv widget declarations, ids, and their binding to the app variables. I ended up trying to draw a small diagram for it, but I'm still not convinced that I fully understand (even though I've successfully created kv files which work).
 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More on game-style graphics (which I believe are in part based on PyGame). That's a purely personal thing, because I want to use Kivy for creating games.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Maybe, but I'd regard it as low priority. Good written documentation is better.
 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Never found one yet. :-)

No, actually, Microsoft's development documentation is awesome. As well as containing detailed descriptions of every class and method, every entry often has multiple code examples for different scenarios.

Code examples are always useful.

[Chris Atthestudy]

[Pratik Shivarkar]

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Programming Guide and API

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?  

I use local docsets with Dash & Zeal
 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Still learning, Haven't really encountered one, which is good.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More about atlas & detailed examples using best of the kivy features.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Why not?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

 Not sure.

[Paolo Amboni]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Basic- intermediate.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

 Tutorial->Guide->API

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Table of content->search box->Google

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Integration of kivy language and python -> OOP

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

More tutorial with didactic aim: keep all simple to inspect a specific feature of kivy language and link to the API.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Yes

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Something like processing (great tutorial from start to high level).

--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

Il giorno giovedì 4 ottobre 2012 23:36:52 UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel ha scritto:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

 

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

[Clément Labbe]

Hi there!

I'm a beginner at Kivy and I'm having a hard time finding how to do simple actions using the kv language. It is easy to find how to create the different widgets, using the docs, or kivycatalog, but nowhere we have the related backend code. For example:

• If you go to the button doc page  http://kivy.org/docs/api-kivy.uix.button.html?highlight=button#kivy.uix.button
• You can see how to manage the callback using Python
• But you can't see how to bind it using KV language
• I wish I'd found this simple example somewhere (I just came up with it now):

main.py
   3    from kivy.app import App 
   4    from kivy.uix.boxlayout import BoxLayout 
   5     
   7    class Layout(BoxLayout): 
   9        def do_something(self): 
  10            print 'Hi' 
  12     
  13    class RelApp(App): 
  14        def build(self): 
  15            return Layout() 
  17     
  18    if __name__ == '__main__': 
  19        RelApp().run()

kv file

   4    <Layout> 
   5        orientation: 'vertical' 
   9        Button: 
  10            text: 'Button1' 
  11            size_hint: 0, None 
  12            on_press: root.do_something()

• Another example: using KV language, how do you react to a CheckBox being checked? I couldn't find that anywhere, and got the answer on stackoverflow at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19345697/callback-to-print-state-of-kivy-switch-widget-using-kv-file . This basic stuff should be easily accessible in the docs :)

Cheers

Clement

[Carlo Dormeletti]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

   Fair good  I was used to program in python

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

   More tutorial as i can't get it working on my android device

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

  In order search box, table of content, goggle

[Kevin Jaquier]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I've been using it for two years now, for all kinds of developments, from quick scripting to middle-size team projects.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

 
Getting Started, then tutorials.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

 
Table of contents when looking for global informations on a subject, and google for more specific stuffs (usually expecting to end up on stackoverflow or here).
I must say I have used Oreilly's ebook (http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032595.do) as much as the official documentations.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

 
I found the concepts very intuitive and straightforward overall. What I'm really struggling with and lost because of the lack of documentation is the deployment on mobile devices, especially when third-party libraries are involved.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

 
More details on the deployment for mobile platforms, obviously (troubleshooting, etc.). Also, more details about how to use the OpenGL implementation, but apparently that's already in progress.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

It would be really nice, but I think documentation is more important at the moment.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

Django, because the official documentation is separated in different parts with different formats, which covers all different needs :
- The usual Getting Started part.
- Tutorial for beginners to create a complete project, without going too deeply in the details but enough to get a good understanding of each different subject.
- Separate subject-specific tutorials that are goes deeper in each subject when you need more informations.
- API reference, for completeness.

[Zach Dunlap]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate. I use it at work most everyday but I've only been using it for just over a year. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting started and Tutorials are the first thing. 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Search box and/or Google 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

So far the most difficult concept for me has been understanding how to translate some of the examples in the documentation into the main.py/APP.kv structure.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I think the documentation is nailing it in terms of being extensive, can't think of a subject that's missing but as I said above, some things are just a bit hard to translate for someone at my skill level. (I realize this could be an issue with me and not the documentation) 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

Would love it! 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

The one that comes to mind which I use often is the documentation for the Python 'Requests' library, it's concise without missing the mark, has great examples and is very inclusive. 

Thanks for Kivy! It's freakin' amazing!

[Paarth Tandon]

I have attached a random picture of a cat.

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:36:52 PM UTC-4, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Intermediate(understand classes, all the basics, and a good understanding of logic)

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

I looked at Getting Started first, but the Tutorials were the most helpful.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

At first I used Google, but when I was more familiar with Kivy I started using the search box.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Using classes for everything instead of trying to create everything in the "build" section of the app. I soon learned better ways of doing things.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

I would highly recommend adding a section in the documentation about how apps should be laid out. This could be added through more tutorials.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

YES. I have always wanted this feature.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I have not really used many other projects even remotely similar to this.

[Paarth Tandon]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:36:52 PM UTC-4, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

Low to intermediate. 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

First Getting Started, but the Tutorials helped the most. 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

At first I used Google, but as I got more familiar with kivy I started using the search box. 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

Learning how to lay out the project. At first I always put everything in the 'build' area. 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

How to lay out a project in different situations. This could by implemented by adding more tutorials. 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

YES. I need this. 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I have not used any other projects anything similar to this. 

[DrumsAndCode]

First, let me say that it is a real pleasure learning and using Kivy. You guys have done a fantastic job! I'm still very new to Kivy (~4 months) and I look forward to becoming more experienced with it. This forum has also been a great help, so I look forward to being able to contribute to the Kivy community as my skill increases.

1. What is your level of experience with python? 

Novice, especially when compared with knowledge I have of other languages. I would love to fast-track to a more advanced level though and recommendations are appreciated.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming Guide, Tutorials, API? 

When I'm new to a technology, I look for examples/tutorials. As I get more comfortable, I rely on API documentation. 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table of content, Google? 

Typically, I search Google: kivy <kivy topic/widget I'm interested in>

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? 

Events/callbacks and adapters (as they pertain to ListViews) have given me some grief. A lot of this is probably my experience in other languages that take a different approach, though.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? 

A section on wiring up popular IDEs would be extremely beneficial. I slammed my head against the desk for way too long trying to get PyCharm working. Sublime Text would be another IDE I would consider.

Lots more documentation on the camera. Particularly, how to get the camera working on iOS. Even better would be setting up the camera so that it works on Android and iOS easily. Maybe this is something I'm just making more complicated than it is, but I've never been able to get the out-of-the-box camera to work on my iPhone.

Advanced topics like memory management and performance considerations. I thought Android's documentation was at an appropriate level: https://developer.android.com/training/articles/memory.html

6. Would you like to see screencasts? 

If you decide to pursue screencasts, please take Khan Academy's tack and keep the lessons short and concise (3-5 minutes.) I have a short attention span and I'm usually looking for something specific.

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? 

I wouldn't call it great documentation, but there are a couple of things I like in MSDN API documentation:

  a. The ability to add comments to the API documentation pages (This may help you to identify gaps that may need filling)

  b. Examples given on a lot of pages in different languages (I could see this being very helpful for showing pure Python approach vs Python/KV approach)

  Example: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.text.stringbuilder(v=vs.110).aspx

[Gabriel Pettier]

Just wants to point out that there is a wiki with installation
instructions for pycharm, and links for other IDEs, contributions
welcomed, of course.

https://github.com/kivy/kivy/wiki/Setting-Up-Kivy-with-various-popular-IDE%27s

Also, since this poll have been started, inclement did a series of
screencast for kivy, that has received a wide approval from other core
devs and the community, that'll probably interest you
http://inclem.net/pages/kivy-crash-course/

cheers

On Mon, Nov 03, 2014 at 05:30:32PM -0800, DrumsAndCode wrote:
> First, let me say that it is a real pleasure learning and using Kivy. You
> guys have done a fantastic job! I'm still very new to Kivy (~4 months) and
> I look forward to becoming more experienced with it. This forum has also
> been a great help, so I look forward to being able to contribute to the
> Kivy community as my skill increases.
>

> *1. What is your level of experience with python? *

>
> Novice, especially when compared with knowledge I have of other languages.
> I would love to fast-track to a more advanced level though and
> recommendations are appreciated.
>

> *2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started,
> Programming Guide, Tutorials, API? *

>
> When I'm new to a technology, I look for examples/tutorials. As I get more
> comfortable, I rely on API documentation.
>

> *3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table of
> content, Google? *

>
> Typically, I search Google: kivy <kivy topic/widget I'm interested in>
>

> *4. What are difficult concepts in kivy? *

>
> Events/callbacks and adapters (as they pertain to ListViews) have given me
> some grief. A lot of this is probably my experience in other languages that
> take a different approach, though.
>

> *5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation? *

>
> A section on wiring up popular IDEs would be extremely beneficial. I
> slammed my head against the desk for way too long trying to get PyCharm
> working. Sublime Text would be another IDE I would consider.
>
> Lots more documentation on the camera. Particularly, how to get the camera
> working on iOS. Even better would be setting up the camera so that it works
> on Android and iOS easily. Maybe this is something I'm just making more
> complicated than it is, but I've never been able to get the out-of-the-box
> camera to work on my iPhone.
>
> Advanced topics like memory management and performance considerations. I
> thought Android's documentation was at an appropriate
> level: https://developer.android.com/training/articles/memory.html
>

> *6. Would you like to see screencasts? *

>
> If you decide to pursue screencasts, please take Khan Academy's tack and
> keep the lessons short and concise (3-5 minutes.) I have a short attention
> span and I'm usually looking for something specific.
>

> *7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why? *

>
> I wouldn't call it great documentation, but there are a couple of things I
> like in MSDN API documentation:
> a. The ability to add comments to the API documentation pages (This may
> help you to identify gaps that may need filling)
> b. Examples given on a lot of pages in different languages (I could see
> this being very helpful for showing pure Python approach vs Python/KV
> approach)
> Example:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.text.stringbuilder(v=vs.110).aspx
>
>

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[DrumsAndCode]

Thanks for the information! Now that you mention it, I have used a couple of inclement's youtube videos; the ones that I watched were great.

I had seen the PyCharm setup instructions, but I'm working on a Mac, which has its own set of gotchas. As soon as I get to a place in my current project where I can afford some potential downtime, I'll blow my installation away, take notes on getting setup again, and contribute to the wiki.

Thanks again for your response. 

[Kuldeep Grewal]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 3:06:52 AM UTC+5:30, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

>>> I would say "intermediate" 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

 

>>> Tutorials

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

>>> Search Box then Table of Content, if not there then "Google" 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

>>> 

 1.  Root and Child and its mystical relationship with KV.

 I find myself bouncing between examples and the API trying to plan, what I'm trying to make.

2. I struggle to use pos, size, pos_hint , size_hint.

3. And how python and kivy are magically linked ...  

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

>>> 1 .More n More examples ...  

2 . linking among various widgets ...

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

>>> yup !  

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

--

Thats all .. 

 

    kuldeep :) 

[Brandon Keith Biggs]

1. What is your level of experience with python?

I have been programming in python for 3 years and would consider myself intermediate/advanced.

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting started. Then API.

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

I like using links at the top, but that really sucks on Kivy. I have not quite figured out how to use Kivy's documentation yet. It is a little too cluttered for my taste.

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

First that you don't install it as a package but rather as a separate thing.

The fact it is not super natural to add your own event loops and reactions to keyboard events.

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

Two separate getting started guides, 1 for developers who already know python and another that teaches python and Kivy concepts together that is reflective of Learn Python the Hard Way.

A lot more games with described source code.

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

N/A

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

In general:
I love pygame's API, but their documentation sucks.

The document for PYInstaller is fantastic
I learn from examples.

For example, The Git documentation is also fantastic, but their API for me is almost unreadable.

So please please please please, pygame API and a nice, short-sectioned heading separated documentation.

Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:36:52 PM UTC+2, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?


--

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

[David Goldsmith - NOAA Affiliate]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 at 2:36:52 PM UTC-7, Mathieu Virbel wrote:

Hi fellow users,

We would like to improve the documentation for you, our users. And to
get it right, we need your input! Please, take time for answering
through this simple survey :) Just reply to this email and insert your
answers inline.

1. What is your level of experience with python?

"Advanced intermediate" (7.5 out of 10); wxPython for GUI development.

 

2. What is the first thing you look for: Getting Started, Programming
Guide, Tutorials, API?

Getting Started

 

3. How do you navigate and search the documentation: Search box, Table
of content, Google?

Depends on what I'm looking for: if it's something specific, Search Box, otherwise, Table of Contents

 

4. What are difficult concepts in kivy?

The main thing I'm having difficulty w/ is nesting widgets and, more generally, figuring out precisely how to go from the comparatively simple examples provided to more complicated, real-world architectures: for me, it's not a conceptual difficulty (at least I don't think that it is), it's a difficulty in finding the available attributes, e.g., finding whether an attribute I'm looking for is an attribute of a layout or the widget I'm putting in it.  Thus, I'd like to see better dev-time exposure of available widget attribute (as well as bubbles re: how to use them); of course, I recognize that this may be a challenge, as this functionality would probably have to be exposed via the IDE one's using, and, obviously, there's a plethora of those, but perhaps you could choose the top three or something and "assign" teams for each; better yet, in the spirit of Kivy, you could develop a unified back end for such functionality, then dedicated expert teams could worry about front ends for the various IDE's.  Oh, and: debugging a Kivy application, esp. given how much GUI building functionality is "hidden" when using the Kivy language to characterize one's widgets.

 

5. What subjects would you like to see in the documentation?

*** DEBUGGING: no Programming Guide is worthy of the title w/out such a section (esp. when that is really what programmers spend most of their time doing)! ***  Also: Unit Testing!  (Especially useful would be a "User" class that could programmatically trigger touch and other human-driven events for testing widgets.)

 

6. Would you like to see screencasts?

You mean like pod casts w/ video?  Sure, if you have people w/ the time to do that, why not.

 

7. Which projects would you cite as having great documentation, and why?

I have yet to find one where I would say the entire Project has "great" doc across the Project (many have parts that are great, e.g., numpy, wxPython, yours, but none are "great" across the board).

DLG

PS: where do I submit a formal feature request to add a section on debugging to the Programming Guide?

 

-

Thanks all :)

Mathieu

[qua non]

PS: where do I submit a formal feature request to add a section on debugging to the Programming Guide?

Open a issue on http://github.com/kivy/kivy/issues  in the topic mention `Feature Request:<Actual feature>.` 

--

[David Goldsmith - NOAA Affiliate]

Thanks!

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--

David Lawrence Goldsmith (DLG)

Software Engineer

Fishery Resource Analysis and Monitoring Division

Northwest Fisheries Science Center – NOAA

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Seattle, WA 98112
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