Read this

[GMoney]

Read this:

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article116118398.html

then ask yourself, where do you get your news....and where do your friends and family get theirs?

[David Fairchild]

Thanks for sharing G.

Stupid is as stupid does, to quote a great philosopher of our age.

The only real problem I have with this story is this quote, "All successful journalism has shock value." This is not journalism.

At the risk of sounding elitist, it does concern me how many Americans (especially those on the right) seem to have little ability and/or interest in thinking critically. So many of us of seem quick to form an opinion without considering any POVs not designed specifically to play on our own preconceptions and fears.

I suppose this story showcases the underbelly of a free press. This may be an inevitable part of freedom. But I think freedom is still worth having.

[GMoney]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:33 AM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

At the risk of sounding elitist, it does concern me how many Americans (especially those on the right) seem to have little ability and/or interest in thinking critically. So many of us of seem quick to form an opinion without considering any POVs not designed specifically to play on our own preconceptions and fears.

Huh......that would have to be my #1 concern. In fact, it just became public enemy #1. The John Dillinger of our age is the disphit-ification of our society at the hands of an adept few with digital savvy and a keen understanding of the idiocy of the average American. 

If i may be allowed to butcher the allegory of the cave......perhaps sudden "enlightenment" can be more destructive than constructive. The prisoners who for so long have seen only shadows, when shown other things, haven't developed the mental capacity to consume these new sources of information constructively. 

 

I suppose this story showcases the underbelly of a free press. This may be an inevitable part of freedom. But I think freedom is still worth having.

It highlights the difficulty of all freedom. The free'er you are, the smarter you have to be, the more responsible you have to be to your own education, because others aren't monitoring it for you.  Our freedom's have outpaced our intellect. That doesn't mean you reign those freedoms it......you wait and hope the intellect catches up. Gonna be bumpy until  it does. If it does. 

[David Fairchild]

Separating fools and their money is as old as society itself. So why does this concern you more, in particular? Do you think this crap changes the outcome of elections? (I am skeptical. But even if it does, I think our society is at much greater peril from our non-elected institution than from our elected ones.)

If this really is PE #1, then it could be stopped by stopping these guys by in some fashion repealing the 1A, right? If we don't stop this, then it is gonna be bumpy as you say. If we do, then we must ask what are we about in our marrow, as BE might ask? Indeed, these are tough question -- well, to anyone but a libertarian.

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 10:50:33 AM UTC-6, G wrote:

[GMoney]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 11:02 AM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Do you think this crap changes the outcome of elections?

Beats me. Something did, though. One of the writers even joked that he fears he was responsible for getting Trump elected. 

 

If this really is PE #1, then it could be stopped by stopping these guys by in some fashion repealing the 1A, right? If we don't stop this, then it is gonna be bumpy as you say. If we do, then we must ask what are we about in our marrow, as BE might ask? Indeed, these are tough question -- well, to anyone but a libertarian.

They aren't really tough questions to me either, at least when it comes to our marrow. You know how I feel about the essence of Man. 

[B Keg]

Sounds a lot like some of the crap Craig forwards

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[Ken Newman]

Thinking it sounds like the crap that you forward. Depends on who's ox is being gored. The fake news industry is alive and quite rampant, especially on Facebook. It has already started a serious debated among Facebook execs. Mark Z isn't very concerned; but some of his high level execs feel that Facebook needs to intervene in some meaningful fashion. 

  IMO, since people as a whole have proven to be fairly stupid, this likely had some influence on the election. 

[Ken Newman]

Many people, both conservative and liberal (and in between), tend to get news from sites that confirm their pre-conceived notions of reality. It makes their knowledge of reality very sketchy. Unfortunately, the well-vetted MSM has fallen into disrepute. It will likely have a hard time getting resurrected. In the vacuum left behind, we have multiple unvetted news sources that are less than useless. 

  Note that BK asserts that Craig sends us stuff from these sites. I assert that BK's sites can equally as biased and unvetted. They're likely both right to some degree. As unpopular as the MSM is, they at least accept the responsibility of trying to get news stories correct. They even print retractions when the stories show inaccuracies. Try to find the last retraction from Breitbart. 

[ClayC]

Dave, good post. Up until you wrote "especially those on the right." Seems to me you've fallen prey to the media narrative that the left is somehow more enlightened and educated . I think the issue you speak of is a problem in general and affects the left and right equally.

[CL]

It's not a media myth.  I am more enlightened and educated.  If you want to be smart like me, then listen to Amy Goodman on KKFI and watch MSNBC.

 

Craig Lubow

913-963-2534 (cell)

---

From: ClayC <claycar...@mac.com>
To: Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Read this

Dave, good post. Up until you wrote "especially those on the right."  Seems to me you've fallen prey to the media narrative that the left is somehow more enlightened and educated . I think the issue you speak of is a problem in general and affects the left and right equally.

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[David Fairchild]

Yes, do learn from those sources, as well as the WSJ, the Star, PBS/NPR, and Mises.org, among others.

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 4:12:48 PM UTC-6, Alanskoalas wrote:

It's not a media myth.  I am more enlightened and educated.  If you want to be smart like me, then listen to Amy Goodman on KKFI and watch MSNBC.

 

Craig Lubow

913-963-2534 (cell)

---

From: ClayC <claycar...@mac.com>
To: Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-diversity-coal...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Read this

Dave, good post. Up until you wrote "especially those on the right."  Seems to me you've fallen prey to the media narrative that the left is somehow more enlightened and educated . I think the issue you speak of is a problem in general and affects the left and right equally.

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[Ken Newman]

Disagree vehemently. There is nothing on the left that is as mainstream and biased as Fox News (oxymoron). There is nobody on MSNBC who is in the tank for the left as Sean Hannity is for Trump and the right. There is no widely read news source on the left that compares to Breitbart. This outfit manufactures news and facts. There are, I'm sure, similar outfits on the left; but they aren't as widely popular or as widely read. The "on the right" comment is on point.

   Watching MSNBC as  I write. Large increase in hate crimes over the last few months. Lots of swastikas showing up on walls. A lovely meeting of white supremacists giving a Nazi salute, saying "seig Trump" But some think that there isn't anything to see here. The point is that these fringe thinkers have always been among us; the difference is that they now feel like they've been given permission, not only to speak their minds (always allowed), but to enter the mainstream conversation. It will take a concerted effort to re-marginalize these people, in effect, to turn the light back on and watch the cockroaches scatter back into dark crevices. 

[Ken Newman]

Noticing that you don't include Fox and Breitbart. Not all conservative reads are devoid of decent journalism. Concern about the WSJ after it was bought by Rupert M. 

[Ken Newman]

You should start a thread where you put up your considerable intelligence and strongly held beliefs in a mythical debate with Ann Coulter. One thing that I don't easily forgive Bill Maher for is his coddling of Ann and Kelleyanne. These and other rightist ideologues should be critiqued strongly. 

[GMoney]

Education and enlightenment don't always go together. In fact, the former can sometimes cloud the latter....which is what's happened in your case. You are no doubt educated...but enlightened???? It is truly impossible to be enlightened while being entrenched in a singular political philosophy insulated from reasonable sources with alternative viewpoints.

From dictionary.com:

Enlightened - Factually well-informed, tolerant of alternative opinions, and guided by rational thought. 

You only got 1 out of 3. 

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:12 PM, 'CL' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

It's not a media myth.  I am more enlightened and educated.  If you want to be smart like me, then listen to Amy Goodman on KKFI and watch MSNBC.

 

Craig Lubow

913-963-2534 (cell)

---

From: ClayC <claycar...@mac.com>
To: Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-diversity-coal...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, November 21, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Read this

Dave, good post. Up until you wrote "especially those on the right."  Seems to me you've fallen prey to the media narrative that the left is somehow more enlightened and educated . I think the issue you speak of is a problem in general and affects the left and right equally.

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[CL]

From dictionary.com:

Enlightened - Factually well-informed, tolerant of alternative opinions, and guided by rational thought. 

You only got 1 out of 3. 

I have at least two out of three and part of a third.   I am factually well-informed and guided by rational thought.   I might be perceived as lacking the tolerance, but I do tolerate moderate views  that differ from mine.   I do not tolerate extremists though.

[David Fairchild]

How do you express intolerance of extremist views?

[ClayC]

Since you see yourself as one of the enlightened on the left, I would imagine you would. :) Just a little humor for you today, Ken. Enjoy your week and have a happy Thanksgiving.

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 7:34:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Newman wrote:

Disagree vehemently. 

[ClayC]

Dave, you have sidestepped replying to my challenge on your comment...

...many Americans (especially those on the right) seem to have little ability and/or interest in thinking critically.

What evidence do you have that supports the idea that "those on the right" have less ability and/or interest in thinking critically than those on the left?

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 9:29:56 AM UTC-6, G wrote:

[GMoney]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:01 PM, ClayC <claycar...@mac.com> wrote:

Dave, you have sidestepped replying to my challenge on your comment...

...many Americans (especially those on the right) seem to have little ability and/or interest in thinking critically.

What evidence do you have that supports the idea that "those on the right" have less ability and/or interest in thinking critically than those on the left?

11/8/2016

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

[David Fairchild]

G, the use of Latin does not demonstrate causation. It is entirely possible that the majority of Trump voters thought critically before casting their ballots.

Clay, I am generally careful when I choose my words. Notice my use of "seem". Ergo, I was not offering a quantifiable argument. I will say that in my experience non-critically thinking liberals seem to choose to be uninformed, while non-critically thinking conservatives seem to choose to be misinformed. I suspect this may have something to do with youth and lack of experience in the case of the former and agedness and stubbornness in the case of the latter. Your results my vary. 

[GMoney]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 1:52 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

G, the use of Latin does not demonstrate causation. It is entirely possible that the majority of Trump voters thought critically before casting their ballots.

That is a conclusion that I cannot accept, sorry. Critical thinking does not lead one to cast a ballot for Donald Trump. That can't be debated any more than one can debate that sound arithmetic principle dictates that 2 + 2 = 5. 

It is only through a fault in one's logic that you could arrive at 2 + 2 = 5.

It is only through a fault in one's logic that you can arrive at President Trump.

[David Fairchild]

I thought you weren't talking politics...

...but if you are -- of course it is possible to think thoughtfully (critically) across a wide spectrum of issues and opt to vote for Trump. Just because you and I came to different conclusions than to vote for Trump doesn't mean that all Trump voters lacked actual criticality in their thought process. This was not simply addition. And I think condescending voices like this from Democratic leaders and others had a lot to do with why HRC is not president.

[GMoney]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:08 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought you weren't talking politics...

Realized my mistake after i sent it. It's a process......going to take me awhile to remember where I live now. I still think i can speak for Americans as if they are a majority of logical thinkers. 

 

...but if you are -- of course it is possible to think thoughtfully (critically) across a wide spectrum of issues and opt to vote for Trump. 

Just because you and I came to different conclusions than to vote for Trump doesn't mean that all Trump voters lacked actual criticality in their thought process. This was not simply addition. And I think condescending voices like this from Democratic leaders and others had a lot to do with why HRC is not president.

Resisting.........resisting.........i will simply add this non-political thought: If someone condescends you for not wanting to have your testicles laminated, and this causes you to do just that....I opt not to grant your action increased credibility because it was in response to a perceived slight.

Nor would i choose to blame the condescenders (new word) for your flattened nuts. 

[David Fairchild]

And I will offer this non-political thought: It is challenging to perceive the word "deplorable" as other than a slight.

[GMoney]

"perceived" was perhaps the least important word in my entire post.

I cheerfully remove it, and the sentiment remains in tact.

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[Ken Newman]

Remember that HRC called half of Trump supporters deplorable. This in fact may be fairly accurate. Problem is, those who heard the message had no way of knowing if they were in or out of the basket. Therefore, the insult was perceived by way more than half of Republicans as directed toward them. 

  As for critical thinking, most surveys show that about 80% of voters are fairly locked in to their decision. Trump was going to get about 40% of the vote no matter what he did. He nibbled around the edges of the undecideds and got another 6%. This almost gave him a majority of the popular vote. Remember that HRC's lead is now about 1.7 million votes. 

[Ken Newman]

If you can provide some evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. In the meantime, I'll have a good weekend; but I'm short on finding humor. I do not see MSM in the business of manufacturing news out of whole cloth. The exception being Fox, which is MSM, but obviously not liberal. Very into inventing news and then repeating the creation multiple times. Sort of like J. Goebbels used to do. 

[B Keg]

Ironically Goebbels and Hitler et all were socialists, just like the msnbc cnn nyt etc etc etc....

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[Ken Newman]

There, I feel better now. Still lost 1/3 of my direct relatives that I never met; so I'm not loving their policies any more than I did before I read your bullshit. What were the politics of the Serbians when they exterminated Bosnians? The Hutus and Tutsis? The Sudanese? Do you have a fucking clue how stupid your answers sound? I'll let CL answer. Was Ghengis Khan a socialist? The Roman Empire? Can you say a "tone deaf"? 

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:16:48 PM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:

Ironically Goebbels and Hitler et all were socialists, just like the msnbc cnn nyt etc etc etc....

[B Keg]

Interesting response to my factual point? Perhaps it's not the alt right or left we aught to fear as much as we should fear the power of government.   

On Nov 22, 2016 7:57 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

There, I feel better now. Still lost 1/3 of my direct relatives that I never met; so I'm not loving their policies any more than I did before I read your bullshit. What were the politics of the Serbians when they exterminated Bosnians? The Hutus and Tutsis? The Sudanese? Do you have a fucking clue how stupid your answers sound? I'll let CL answer. Was Ghengis Khan a socialist? The Roman Empire? Can you say a "tone deaf"? 

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:16:48 PM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:

Ironically Goebbels and Hitler et all were socialists, just like the msnbc cnn nyt etc etc etc....

On Nov 22, 2016 4:50 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-diversity-coalitio...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If you can provide some evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. In the meantime, I'll have a good weekend; but I'm short on finding humor. I do not see MSM in the business of manufacturing news out of whole cloth. The exception being Fox, which is MSM, but obviously not liberal. Very into inventing news and then repeating the creation multiple times. Sort of like J. Goebbels used to do. 

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 11:55:39 AM UTC-6, ClayC wrote:

Since you see yourself as one of the enlightened on the left, I would imagine you would. :) Just a little humor for you today, Ken. Enjoy your week and have a happy Thanksgiving.

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 7:34:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Newman wrote:

Disagree vehemently. 

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[ClayC]

What evidence are you looking for? Examples of people on the left saying things and behaving in ways that are devoid of rational, critical thought? Or examples of ultra-left news agencies?

[Ken Newman]

Didn't matter what political persuasion Hitler was about. It was how he prosecuted his agenda. As for being factually correct, the fact was basically a "so what". What do we gain by learning or remembering that H was a socialist? That other lefties, perhaps Hilary or Bernie, might behave similarly? Silly on its face. And even more silly now that most that identify as neo-Nazis are decidedly right wing. Today's post is more to the point. Power in anyone's hands can be abused tragically. 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 3:09:15 AM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:

Interesting response to my factual point? Perhaps it's not the alt right or left we aught to fear as much as we should fear the power of government.   

On Nov 22, 2016 7:57 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-diversity-coal...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

There, I feel better now. Still lost 1/3 of my direct relatives that I never met; so I'm not loving their policies any more than I did before I read your bullshit. What were the politics of the Serbians when they exterminated Bosnians? The Hutus and Tutsis? The Sudanese? Do you have a fucking clue how stupid your answers sound? I'll let CL answer. Was Ghengis Khan a socialist? The Roman Empire? Can you say a "tone deaf"? 

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:16:48 PM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:

Ironically Goebbels and Hitler et all were socialists, just like the msnbc cnn nyt etc etc etc....

On Nov 22, 2016 4:50 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-diversity-coal...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If you can provide some evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. In the meantime, I'll have a good weekend; but I'm short on finding humor. I do not see MSM in the business of manufacturing news out of whole cloth. The exception being Fox, which is MSM, but obviously not liberal. Very into inventing news and then repeating the creation multiple times. Sort of like J. Goebbels used to do. 

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 11:55:39 AM UTC-6, ClayC wrote:

Since you see yourself as one of the enlightened on the left, I would imagine you would. :) Just a little humor for you today, Ken. Enjoy your week and have a happy Thanksgiving.

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 7:34:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Newman wrote:

Disagree vehemently. 

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[B Keg]

Ah, finally something upon which we can agree...power in anyone's hands instead of everyone's hands is a danger.

On Nov 23, 2016 6:57 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Didn't matter what political persuasion Hitler was about. It was how he prosecuted his agenda. As for being factually correct, the fact was basically a "so what". What do we gain by learning or remembering that H was a socialist? That other lefties, perhaps Hilary or Bernie, might behave similarly? Silly on its face. And even more silly now that most that identify as neo-Nazis are decidedly right wing. Today's post is more to the point. Power in anyone's hands can be abused tragically. 
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 3:09:15 AM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:
>>
>> Interesting response to my factual point? Perhaps it's not the alt right or left we aught to fear as much as we should fear the power of government.   
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2016 7:57 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There, I feel better now. Still lost 1/3 of my direct relatives that I never met; so I'm not loving their policies any more than I did before I read your bullshit. What were the politics of the Serbians when they exterminated Bosnians? The Hutus and Tutsis? The Sudanese? Do you have a fucking clue how stupid your answers sound? I'll let CL answer. Was Ghengis Khan a socialist? The Roman Empire? Can you say a "tone deaf"? 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:16:48 PM UTC-6, Brian Kegerreis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ironically Goebbels and Hitler et all were socialists, just like the msnbc cnn nyt etc etc etc....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 22, 2016 4:50 PM, "'Ken Newman' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition" <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can provide some evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. In the meantime, I'll have a good weekend; but I'm short on finding humor. I do not see MSM in the business of manufacturing news out of whole cloth. The exception being Fox, which is MSM, but obviously not liberal. Very into inventing news and then repeating the creation multiple times. Sort of like J. Goebbels used to do. 
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 11:55:39 AM UTC-6, ClayC wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since you see yourself as one of the enlightened on the left, I would imagine you would. :) Just a little humor for you today, Ken. Enjoy your week and have a happy Thanksgiving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 7:34:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Newman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Disagree vehemently. 
>>>>>
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>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
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[Ken Newman]

Exactly. There are irrational lefties; but they tend not to get mainstream coverage. They operate on the fringe where they belong. Conservatives on the fringe are insinuating their way into mainstream news. In fact, the alt-right spokesman (Phillips?) is feeling very pleased with this development. Fox News is probably not fringe, but it kind of is the nose of the camel. Breitbart is the camel's body, and other alt-right rags are the anus. 

[ClayC]

I can't think of any mainstream big righty "news" outlets. Brietbert isn't. No more than Salon or the Daily Kos on the left.

[ClayC]

[Ken Newman]

Not Fox News? Pretty righty from where I sit. 

[ClayC]

Fox News leans right like CNN leans left. I'm talking about the ultra-right stuff you've been complaining about becoming more mainstream.

[Ken Newman]

I would contend that some of Fox News way more right. Sean Hannity comes to mind. Fox also spends a lot of time acting as its own echo chamber, taking poorly vetted or completely fabricated stories and repeating them multiple times, until they take on the patina of fact. Best, but not only example that comes to mind is the notion that Obama's trip to India several years ago cost 200 million dollars a day. That's more than Operation Iraqi Freedom. This little tidbit was repeated so many times that it made it into the realm of fact  for many low information people. Find me a similar CNN fabrication and I'll consider your point.  Until then, false equivalency.

[Ken Newman]

I have, however, listened to some of Megan K's interviews. She can really bring it at times. Love to see what she could do if Rupert didn't issue her paychecks. Her takedown of Newt G should have ended his career in any public position. He looked crazed by the time it was over.