A good guy with a gun

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GMoney

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Mar 14, 2016, 10:20:04 AM3/14/16
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CL

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Mar 14, 2016, 12:49:41 PM3/14/16
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Here's a better story, which looks at both sides.

 
 
image
 
 
 
 
 
Concealed-weapon owner shoots hatchet-wielding attacker...
"This could have been disastrous," an official said. "Had this guy not shot, who knows what would have happened. We might have a dead clerk right now, and instead ...
Preview by Yahoo
 

 


From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 9:20 AM
Subject: A good guy with a gun

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GMoney

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Mar 14, 2016, 12:56:16 PM3/14/16
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Oh make no mistake.....having more guns leads to more gun crimes. I know that seems so simple, but Brian K will be here shortly trying to dispute it, and as this article suggests, more and more Americans are being convinced that 2 + 2 is in fact, 5.

It's staggering...but then, this country is about to put up Donald Trump as one of a handful of potential presidents....so i should stop giving us so much credit. We're a bunch of fucking idiots, myself included.

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kegbdman

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Mar 14, 2016, 6:29:29 PM3/14/16
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G is half right. 
When crimminals have more guns than honest citizens there will be more gun crimes. Thats why 99.9999999999% of mass shootings happen in gun free zones. Thats why the murder rate is inversely proportional to gun restrictions in most places. Thats why in survey after survey crimminals and dictators aloke prefer strixt funncontoel laws. That'swhy the two Islamonazis who tried to kill people at a muhamed cartoon drawing contest were the only ones who died and the 2 San Bernardino shooters killed a dozen or so people. 
See, I am not so one sided or oppositional that I can't agree with G on occasion. 


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CL

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Mar 14, 2016, 11:57:42 PM3/14/16
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BK,
Must you always twist what others say, taking things out of context, and lie???   This is getting old.  You don't have a clue about what sparked the cartoon murders in France and your idea that allowing everyone to carry a gun would have prevented San Bernardino is sheer nonsense.  Obviously, the people who had guns were unable to prevent it.

You made the perfect statement in favor of gun control!! Thank you for agreeing with G and me now.  "When criminals have more guns than honest citizens there will be more gun crimes."  That is absolutely correct!!  That is the whole point of why we need gun control!   Our resident nut has finally figured it out!!  You do see, don't you, that the way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is to have more gun control?  It's the lack of any reasonable and prudent gun control that has allowed criminals to get all of the guns they could ever hope for in their lifetimes.  No registration in some states, no background checks, gun show loopholes, no laws preventing a private citizen like you or me from selling our guns to a criminal, etc.  Thank you for expressing your support for regulation now.   You have done a full 180!!!
From: kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com>
To: "kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com" <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 5:29 PM

ClayC

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Mar 15, 2016, 10:31:04 AM3/15/16
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Craig, your statement here summarizes the entire fallacy behind gun control. Simply put, "gun control" (i.e. laws that regulate the sale, purchase and ownership of firearms) does not keep criminals from gaining access to guns. Drug dealers, gang members… they are not concerned about breaking laws. In some circumstances, it may make it more difficult for a criminal to gain access to a gun, but it won't stop him if he's determined. 

GMoney

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Mar 15, 2016, 10:53:14 AM3/15/16
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What about the non drug dealers and the non gang members? The not-so hard core criminals, the criminals of opportunity, the criminals that make up the majority of our crimes? What if they could be deterred? The bored, poorly educated teenager lying at home watching his heroes on Vevo flash guns and sing about smokin' snitches......does this person become more or less dangerous with a gun in his dresser drawer?

Is it your stance that since we can't solve ALL gun crimes, we shouldn't take measures to help ANY?

It seems to me that the "responsible" gun owner who's sole purpose of ownership is public and personal safety, wouldn't mind:
- Registering his gun
- Waiting days or weeks to get his gun while his background is verified
- Taking a required gun safety course
- Showing proof of home security measures (gun safe, etc.)

Since the "responsible" gun owner that we are always touting do this sort of stuff anyway....what's the problem? These simple steps would deter the bored teenager above from getting a gun, but not Mr. Clay. Now we've got fewer guns out there, and of the ones out there, more of them are in the hands of Clay and not Mr. Bored Teenager.

How is that not win-win?

Crusaders for liberty at all costs (like Dave) won't like this, but someone genuinely interested in personal security and their 2A rights...should be just fine with it.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 AM, ClayC <claycar...@mac.com> wrote:
Craig, your statement here summarizes the entire fallacy behind gun control. Simply put, "gun control" (i.e. laws that regulate the sale, purchase and ownership of firearms) does not keep criminals from gaining access to guns. Drug dealers, gang members… they are not concerned about breaking laws. In some circumstances, it may make it more difficult for a criminal to gain access to a gun, but it won't stop him if he's determined. 

 
  "When criminals have more guns than honest citizens there will be more gun crimes."  That is absolutely correct!!  That is the whole point of why we need gun control!   

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ClayC

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Mar 15, 2016, 1:32:09 PM3/15/16
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Yeah, yeah. Some follow up for you.

1. Who is this Mr. Bored Teenager you are concerned about? I have not stats handy but what percentage of violent gun crimes are committed by Mr. Bored Teenager who suddenly gets a hankerin' to grab Dad's gun out of the drawer and go hit a 7-Eleven?
2. Let's assume Mr. Bored Teenager's dad went through all the steps you outline. How does that keep him from going off an committing a crime like you've described? Does he still not have access to Dad's gun?
3. Even if this is all great and wonderful and works… the issue is its never enough. We have these kind of measures already in place, but the Craig's of this world won't stop with that. "Gun control" for the Left means "absence of guns" and nothing less. Ideal? Perhaps. Practical, realistic and potentially problematic is other ways? Yes.


On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 9:53:14 AM UTC-5, G wrote:
What about the non drug dealers and the non gang members? The not-so hard core criminals, the criminals of opportunity, the criminals that make up the majority of our crimes? What if they could be deterred? The bored, poorly educated teenager lying at home watching his heroes on Vevo flash guns and sing about smokin' snitches......does this person become more or less dangerous with a gun in his dresser drawer?

Is it your stance that since we can't solve ALL gun crimes, we shouldn't take measures to help ANY?

It seems to me that the "responsible" gun owner who's sole purpose of ownership is public and personal safety, wouldn't mind:
- Registering his gun
- Waiting days or weeks to get his gun while his background is verified
- Taking a required gun safety course
- Showing proof of home security measures (gun safe, etc.)

Since the "responsible" gun owner that we are always touting do this sort of stuff anyway....what's the problem? These simple steps would deter the bored teenager above from getting a gun, but not Mr. Clay. Now we've got fewer guns out there, and of the ones out there, more of them are in the hands of Clay and not Mr. Bored Teenager.

How is that not win-win?

Crusaders for liberty at all costs (like Dave) won't like this, but someone genuinely interested in personal security and their 2A rights...should be just fine with it.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 AM, ClayC <claycar...@mac.com> wrote:
Craig, your statement here summarizes the entire fallacy behind gun control. Simply put, "gun control" (i.e. laws that regulate the sale, purchase and ownership of firearms) does not keep criminals from gaining access to guns. Drug dealers, gang members… they are not concerned about breaking laws. In some circumstances, it may make it more difficult for a criminal to gain access to a gun, but it won't stop him if he's determined. 

 
  "When criminals have more guns than honest citizens there will be more gun crimes."  That is absolutely correct!!  That is the whole point of why we need gun control!   

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kegbdman

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Mar 15, 2016, 2:21:00 PM3/15/16
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The Craigs and the Gs o dB this world can't answer this simple question. .
If guns are the problem how come mass shootings and armed robbery, rape and other gun crimes seldom happen at guns shows?



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-------- Original message --------
From: ClayC <claycar...@mac.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 13:32 (GMT-05:00)
To: Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

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David Fairchild

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Mar 15, 2016, 2:26:28 PM3/15/16
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Guns are interesting, aren't they? There are zero externalities associated with guns until the externalities from a particular gun are potential life ending or life altering for someone.

This is unlike, says, someone dumping used motor oil in the storm sewer once versus every in the neighborhood doing it every time.

IOW a gun has what is essentially a right angle negative utility function -- zero slope until its slope is 90'.

Moreover, the vast majority of guns will always have a zero sloped negative utility function, and a very small percentage will have a 90' slope.

I wonder if there is a market for a gun maker to sell only "responsible" guns that have, say, biometrically linked triggers that only work for the owner. I think there must be some market solutions that will help, but I don't think any further laws short of outright confiscation (and automatic jail time for 2A holders on) will help much, at least in terms of intentional crimes with guns, because the genie is already out of the bag in terms of gun availability - legal or otherwise. 




On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 9:53:14 AM UTC-5, G wrote:
What about the non drug dealers and the non gang members? The not-so hard core criminals, the criminals of opportunity, the criminals that make up the majority of our crimes? What if they could be deterred? The bored, poorly educated teenager lying at home watching his heroes on Vevo flash guns and sing about smokin' snitches......does this person become more or less dangerous with a gun in his dresser drawer?

Is it your stance that since we can't solve ALL gun crimes, we shouldn't take measures to help ANY?

It seems to me that the "responsible" gun owner who's sole purpose of ownership is public and personal safety, wouldn't mind:
- Registering his gun
- Waiting days or weeks to get his gun while his background is verified
- Taking a required gun safety course
- Showing proof of home security measures (gun safe, etc.)

Since the "responsible" gun owner that we are always touting do this sort of stuff anyway....what's the problem? These simple steps would deter the bored teenager above from getting a gun, but not Mr. Clay. Now we've got fewer guns out there, and of the ones out there, more of them are in the hands of Clay and not Mr. Bored Teenager.

How is that not win-win?

Crusaders for liberty at all costs (like Dave) won't like this, but someone genuinely interested in personal security and their 2A rights...should be just fine with it.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 9:31 AM, ClayC <claycar...@mac.com> wrote:
Craig, your statement here summarizes the entire fallacy behind gun control. Simply put, "gun control" (i.e. laws that regulate the sale, purchase and ownership of firearms) does not keep criminals from gaining access to guns. Drug dealers, gang members… they are not concerned about breaking laws. In some circumstances, it may make it more difficult for a criminal to gain access to a gun, but it won't stop him if he's determined. 

 
  "When criminals have more guns than honest citizens there will be more gun crimes."  That is absolutely correct!!  That is the whole point of why we need gun control!   

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GMoney

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Mar 15, 2016, 2:40:36 PM3/15/16
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On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:20 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Craigs and the Gs o dB this world can't answer this simple question. .
If guns are the problem how come mass shootings and armed robbery, rape and other gun crimes seldom happen at guns shows?

Boy that's a toughie..........my oh my.....why don't crimes like rape and armed robbery happen very often in populated trade centers during the middle of the day.....gee whiz.....beats the fuck out of me. You'd think rapists and armed robbers would seek out populated areas with lots of light and a heavy security presence.

And so it continues......this G can't answer your simple question.

GMoney

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Mar 15, 2016, 2:43:08 PM3/15/16
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On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:26 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if there is a market for a gun maker to sell only "responsible" guns that have, say, biometrically linked triggers that only work for the owner. I think there must be some market solutions that will help, but I don't think any further laws short of outright confiscation (and automatic jail time for 2A holders on) will help much, at least in terms of intentional crimes with guns, because the genie is already out of the bag in terms of gun availability - legal or otherwise. 


My piece of shit smart phone will only open if it detects my thumb print......so yeah, you'd think guns could have the same tech.

David Fairchild

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Mar 15, 2016, 2:49:28 PM3/15/16
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Damn it. I mixed my metaphors. Genies come from bottles. Cats come from bags. Horses come from barns. And well enough comes from being alone. 

kegbdman

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Mar 15, 2016, 3:21:23 PM3/15/16
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Oh so the fear of armed resisrance does deter crime then. Glad we agree



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-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 14:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

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kegbdman

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Mar 15, 2016, 3:21:43 PM3/15/16
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They exist. 



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-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 14:43 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:26 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if there is a market for a gun maker to sell only "responsible" guns that have, say, biometrically linked triggers that only work for the owner. I think there must be some market solutions that will help, but I don't think any further laws short of outright confiscation (and automatic jail time for 2A holders on) will help much, at least in terms of intentional crimes with guns, because the genie is already out of the bag in terms of gun availability - legal or otherwise. 


My piece of shit smart phone will only open if it detects my thumb print......so yeah, you'd think guns could have the same tech.

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GMoney

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Mar 15, 2016, 4:53:55 PM3/15/16
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Yes Brian, resistance deters crime....armed or otherwise.

Guess what? Rapes, armed robberies and mass shootings don't happen at car shows either....or golf expos or train shows or large bridge circles.

Just as mass shootings are terrible arguments for gun control, so is your ridiculous example about gun shows a piss poor argument for guns as a crime deterrent. It's the mere presence of hundreds of witnesses that deters crime at such a venue.


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/kansas-city-diversity-coalition/4n7cih9rpxbbslpuysh94hab.1458069672547%40email.android.com.

CL

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Mar 15, 2016, 6:00:25 PM3/15/16
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The technology is there.  The gun manufacturers will not make it standard unless they are forced too.  Hence, regulation!!
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:43 PM

Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:26 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if there is a market for a gun maker to sell only "responsible" guns that have, say, biometrically linked triggers that only work for the owner. I think there must be some market solutions that will help, but I don't think any further laws short of outright confiscation (and automatic jail time for 2A holders on) will help much, at least in terms of intentional crimes with guns, because the genie is already out of the bag in terms of gun availability - legal or otherwise. 


My piece of shit smart phone will only open if it detects my thumb print......so yeah, you'd think guns could have the same tech.

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kegbdman

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Mar 15, 2016, 6:17:56 PM3/15/16
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 Yes they don't usually happen at those events either. However your contention is that it is guns that are the problem. If that were true bad things would happen more often where there more guns. 
Since they don't happen where guns are in great supply with any more frequency doesn't that destroy your contention?



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-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 16:53 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

Yes Brian, resistance deters crime....armed or otherwise.

Guess what? Rapes, armed robberies and mass shootings don't happen at car shows either....or golf expos or train shows or large bridge circles.

Just as mass shootings are terrible arguments for gun control, so is your ridiculous example about gun shows a piss poor argument for guns as a crime deterrent. It's the mere presence of hundreds of witnesses that deters crime at such a venue.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 2:21 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh so the fear of armed resisrance does deter crime then. Glad we agree



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Mega® 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 14:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:20 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Craigs and the Gs o dB this world can't answer this simple question. .
If guns are the problem how come mass shootings and armed robbery, rape and other gun crimes seldom happen at guns shows?

Boy that's a toughie..........my oh my.....why don't crimes like rape and armed robbery happen very often in populated trade centers during the middle of the day.....gee whiz.....beats the fuck out of me. You'd think rapists and armed robbers would seek out populated areas with lots of light and a heavy security presence.

And so it continues......this G can't answer your simple question.

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kegbdman

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Mar 15, 2016, 6:32:56 PM3/15/16
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No regulating needed, just keep buying the guns with the features you want and the market will adapt. 



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-------- Original message --------
From: 'CL' via Kansas City Diversity Coalition <kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 18:00 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

The technology is there.  The gun manufacturers will not make it standard unless they are forced too.  Hence, regulation!!
 


From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:26 PM, David Fairchild <dfairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if there is a market for a gun maker to sell only "responsible" guns that have, say, biometrically linked triggers that only work for the owner. I think there must be some market solutions that will help, but I don't think any further laws short of outright confiscation (and automatic jail time for 2A holders on) will help much, at least in terms of intentional crimes with guns, because the genie is already out of the bag in terms of gun availability - legal or otherwise. 


My piece of shit smart phone will only open if it detects my thumb print......so yeah, you'd think guns could have the same tech.

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GMoney

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Mar 16, 2016, 8:45:23 AM3/16/16
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On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:17 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Yes they don't usually happen at those events either. However your contention is that it is guns that are the problem.

Sort of. People are ALWAYS the problem. Always.  Guns with no people never kill people. So yes, we always have a people problem. But trying to dismiss guns by saying "Meh, it's just a people problem" is myopic. We have a people WITH guns problem. We should be attacking both sides.
 
If that were true bad things would happen more often where there more guns. 

Not really. Bury 10,000,000 guns underground, and they'd never shoot anyone.
 
Since they don't happen where guns are in great supply with any more frequency doesn't that destroy your contention?

No, but I'm beginning to think explaining it to you is like trying to explain recursion to my 6 year old.....just ain't gonna take.

David Fairchild

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Mar 16, 2016, 9:48:46 AM3/16/16
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"or golf expos"

Wait, this assumes Tiger is not on the speakers panel, right?


On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 3:53:55 PM UTC-5, G wrote:
Yes Brian, resistance deters crime....armed or otherwise.

Guess what? Rapes, armed robberies and mass shootings don't happen at car shows either....or golf expos or train shows or large bridge circles.

Just as mass shootings are terrible arguments for gun control, so is your ridiculous example about gun shows a piss poor argument for guns as a crime deterrent. It's the mere presence of hundreds of witnesses that deters crime at such a venue.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 2:21 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh so the fear of armed resisrance does deter crime then. Glad we agree



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Mega® 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/15/2016 14:40 (GMT-05:00)
To: kansas-city-diversity-coal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:20 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Craigs and the Gs o dB this world can't answer this simple question. .
If guns are the problem how come mass shootings and armed robbery, rape and other gun crimes seldom happen at guns shows?

Boy that's a toughie..........my oh my.....why don't crimes like rape and armed robbery happen very often in populated trade centers during the middle of the day.....gee whiz.....beats the fuck out of me. You'd think rapists and armed robbers would seek out populated areas with lots of light and a heavy security presence.

And so it continues......this G can't answer your simple question.

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David Fairchild

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Mar 16, 2016, 9:52:03 AM3/16/16
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"Bury 10,000,000 guns underground, and they'd never shoot anyone."

Awesome, only 350,000,000 more to go.

kegbdman

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Mar 16, 2016, 6:57:54 PM3/16/16
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Wow really, bury guns and they won't hurt anyone.... gee wiz what a Wyle E Coyote kind of genius your displayed. 
You're only solution seems to continue to be to wave some magic wand and make guns disappear over some undetermined amount of time. 
Good luck with that.
Other than your impossible solution we really share a lot of the same opinions I think.
People are the problem, guns make the problem people more of a problem. Even the good people make mistakes with guns and becsuse of the gun the mistake is more costly. Yada yada yada
The difference is you want to create more defenseless victims like the ones in San Bernadino or Paris or Ft Hood..... while I want everyone to be trained and have the possibility of being armed. So that when bad people act good people can stop them and reduce casualties while at the same time reducing the number of accidents. 
I don't think the number of people with guns would increase much in my solution, but they would all be better trained and the bad guys would be sooner out of the gene pool one way or the other. 
My way preserves the freedom of self defense yours denies it. My way empowers people to dongood, yours creates a larger pool of defenseless victims. I don't see the benefit in your way, but I guess that's just me being me.


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-------- Original message --------
From: GMoney <gm0n...@gmail.com>
Date: 3/16/2016 07:45 (GMT-06:00)
To: kansas-city-div...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: A good guy with a gun

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:17 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
 Yes they don't usually happen at those events either. However your contention is that it is guns that are the problem.

Sort of. People are ALWAYS the problem. Always.  Guns with no people never kill people. So yes, we always have a people problem. But trying to dismiss guns by saying "Meh, it's just a people problem" is myopic. We have a people WITH guns problem. We should be attacking both sides.
 
If that were true bad things would happen more often where there more guns. 

Not really. Bury 10,000,000 guns underground, and they'd never shoot anyone.
 
Since they don't happen where guns are in great supply with any more frequency doesn't that destroy your contention?

No, but I'm beginning to think explaining it to you is like trying to explain recursion to my 6 year old.....just ain't gonna take.

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GMoney

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Mar 17, 2016, 8:20:42 AM3/17/16
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 5:57 PM, kegbdman <kegb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Wow really, bury guns and they won't hurt anyone.... gee wiz what a Wyle E Coyote kind of genius your displayed. 
You're only solution seems to continue to be to wave some magic wand and make guns disappear over some undetermined amount of time. 
Good luck with that.

Thanks!!!
 
Other than your impossible solution we really share a lot of the same opinions I think.

Probably.
 
People are the problem, guns make the problem people more of a problem. Even the good people make mistakes with guns and becsuse of the gun the mistake is more costly. Yada yada yada

Yada yada indeed.
 
The difference is you want to create more defenseless victims like the ones in San Bernadino or Paris or Ft Hood..... while I want everyone to be trained and have the possibility of being armed.

That's one of the differences.
 
So that when bad people act good people can stop them and reduce casualties while at the same time reducing the number of accidents.

While at the same time making everyone, even people who'd rather not, be slaves to guns.
 
My way preserves the freedom of self defense yours denies it. My way empowers people to dongood, yours creates a larger pool of defenseless victims. I don't see the benefit in your way, but I guess that's just me being me.

Actually that is 'Muricans bein' 'Muricans. Your entire genetic line has been brainwashed with this for centuries.

I don't blame you. Even sound reason has a helluva time overcoming several centuries of indoctrination. You're spouting what yer grandpappy spouted and what his grandpappy spouted.



 


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