Social Media behaviour

185 views
Skip to first unread message

Marijke Stuivenberg

unread,
Mar 19, 2015, 10:43:41 PM3/19/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Dear Leadership Members,

Recently on two different occurrences, I found how people who are working in our project got into debates on social media that more or less ended in harassment. Offending words and hurtful conversations that do not contribute to the healthiness of our project.

At the last Leadership Summit, we internally debated our behaviour on social media like Twitter and Facebook. A majority came to an agreement on how to behave, without restricting people from speaking their mind. I think the majority of our Leadership members today act this way. Being respectful and also keeping in mind that we want to prevent the negativity out there in the open that have the potential to scare people away from our project.

What I would like to open up is a discussion on how to spread the message to the entire community; to prevent things from happening as I have just recently been confronted with. I am sure that we can't prevent it completely, but there must be a way to keep negative behaviour at a minimum. We as a leadership should be able to act on it in a constructive way, to prevent it from happening again and again. We should have procedures in place, and keep encouraging the way we want people to work together in our community:

- Speak your mind with respect to everyone you work with in our community

I would love to hear your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely,
Marijke Stuivenberg

Secretary
Open Source Matters Inc.

Dianne Henning

unread,
Mar 19, 2015, 11:22:09 PM3/19/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Marijke,

Thank you for bringing this up. 

I think we all need to find a better way to communicate with each other on social media. Where it might be a joke between two people, if those two people also happen to be Joomla leaders, comments could be easily misconstrued by the public. 

This happens too often to not say anything. The last incident was offensive. Lead by leading. Set an example. Let's work to bring more people in to the community when we are speaking with our public personas. 

Personally, I am tired of social media flame wars. I refuse to engage in 140 characters. Let's talk to one another. Here's a thought. Can we all recognize that we each come to this discussion with our own cultural and personal experiences? Joomla is a diverse community. Let's work together with dignity and class to have a better understanding of each other. This is not about gender, it is about respect for each other.

Best,
Dianne

Dianne Henning
Joomla! Community Leadership Team 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla Leadership Team" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to joomla-leaders...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-leadership.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Tessa Mero

unread,
Mar 19, 2015, 11:39:12 PM3/19/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Previously I wasn't much in place for a process, but after seeing a few occurrences and then being involved with one, it now makes a lot more sense on the importance of one.

I think there should be a document that reminds the community of proper ways of acting/responding, rather than a document telling you what you can't do.

I'd be happy to get involved in a process document giving my two cents on what makes sense and what doesn't. I'm pretty sure there has been one in place, as mentioned in the previous leadership summit, but nothing was done with it.




Brad Baker

unread,
Mar 20, 2015, 1:43:16 AM3/20/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Why do we continue to tolerate bad behaviour? In case it's not clear enough yet.. this kind of behaviour doesn't help Joomla. Surely it's as simple as removing people who behave badly?

.. instead, for nearly 10 years we continue to put up with bad behaviour.. instead of addressing the real problem (the people who behave badly).

Anyway.. my voice is hoarse from repeating this over and over again.

Sarah Watz

unread,
Mar 20, 2015, 5:13:50 AM3/20/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,

Thank you Marijke for re-starting this conversation. You all know I have very strong feelings about this subject. Here is my call out.

It's just NOT acceptable.
I agree with Brad. We should be addressing the real problem and not quietly accept it any longer. Enough is enough. This kind of behavior hurts not just the individuals involved but also the community at large.

It's a culture problem.
It's not a gender issue. It's a culture that has been allowed to decline. We should put our foot down and get back to the core of what Joomla stands for. We should define the culture we want now and in the future and protect if from declining again. That will make it easier to attract new volunteers, get the volunteers that are active stay longer and enjoy the ride. We should ask simply ask volunteers to leave the community if they are being disrespectful to the community at large or to an individual. We are all together. I know it's a delicate issue to "fire" volunteers. But we need to.

It's also a
threat to our brand.
When I'm communicating with some people they tell me a lot that they are worried that Joomla! through the negative and offensive communication in social media are slowly(?) and surely undermining our brand. That reflects in less attraction for sponsors, less interest from contributors and less energy for those involved. Which ultimately will lead to an abandoned project. We should protect our project from this risk.

We are better than this.
Let's not wait any longer. Let's not start another long dragging process to create a document to get a change in place. Let's do it now. Can't we just use common sense. Talk with the persons involved. Explain firmly that it's not acceptable and if it happens again that they will be asked to leave the community.

Every single time anyone in our community is breaching what we as a community and individual feels is acceptable behavior we as leaders needs to know about it and deal with it. We don't need to ask for permission. We have the permission to lead by example as leaders. If it later on becomes a defined process - great. But let's not waste time to wait on a process before we act.

I believe in us.
Let's go for change now. Let's make the community a better and safer place for the community now and in the future.

With warmth,
Sarah

Sarah Watz
President, Open Source Matters, Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/

--

OSM Joe Sonne

unread,
Mar 20, 2015, 8:34:03 AM3/20/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Accommodating toxic people empowers them.

It may not be fun to address this head on, and in a warped way it brings attention to them, but we do need to make the point that it’s not OK.

I suggest, without bringing attention to toxic people, that the leadership simply continue to openly reward good behaviour and effort while loudly speaking about and celebrating positive events and people’s effort.

When a toxic person raises his/her voice to get attention, simply say that it’s sad that people are like this, that it’s not OK, and then send a strong positive message that lifts up and encourages those who don’t participate in it.

Joe Sonne

Victor Drover

unread,
Mar 20, 2015, 8:37:24 AM3/20/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
So, how do we address this? What are the action items?

Warm Regards,

Victor Drover
Treasurer, Open Source Matters
262-309-4140
@VicDrover

Saurabh Shah

unread,
Mar 21, 2015, 8:31:26 AM3/21/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Marijke for the email and I agree with almost everyone here.
How we address this ? Just send email to a person who is violating on how he/she should behave on social media. We can give some fairly notice sending from the account about not to do it again and if happens again, we should really write a blog post about the person violating the rules which we can build for abusing which affect the project and hence we do not have that person count as a leader in Joomla and that is the strict action we need to take.
I can understand people sometimes are frustrated may be bcoz any of the personal reasons Or having a cultural difference for not getting or understanding and respond harshly and abusing. It is really a serious problem. Just think how you will feel when someone Say F word to you and that is on public and how you will react on it ? It will be always be a big drama when it involves social media and it affects the project in many ways. This things really can not be tolerated. Unless we take any strong action, we will always have the same situation. My 0.02.. Peace!


Regards,
Saurabh Shah
Board Member
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/
Phone: +91 - 9561160006

Ryan Ozimek

unread,
Mar 21, 2015, 10:00:29 AM3/21/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Hola amigos,

This isn't an easy topic, I'm bummed to hear we're back here again.

As Brad said, we've seen extremely poor behavior in our project in the past, and to be honest, leadership has rarely taken any actions in response to such behavior.  In 2009, in response to the lack of history, documentation, and process of banning individuals from the Joomla community, I thought it would be useful to put together a document that outlined a set of steps to respond to extremely bad behavior.

NOTE:  this document was written in response to determining how to handle banning in Joomla, which has happened in the past, but which had little or no documentation.

To address Vic's point of "how do we address this" (but not assuming that a ban should occur here...I really don't know what the situation is at hand), and to provide a level of transparency, I've shared my 2009 document publicly below.

A few important thoughts.

1) This was written specifically about banning individuals, not generally handling bad behavior.  We should keep that in mind as we document a process for the situation at hand.  The point of this document was to specifically handle the worst of the worst behavior, not the day-to-day challenges we see in communications.  Still, I think it could be useful.

2) This was written by me, with my own views, and did not represent the views of the leadership team or OSM in 2009, or today.

3) This was written in 2009.  Times have changed.  I still eat lots of burritos though, so some things have stayed the same.

4) Consider this, ignore this, change it, whatever you'd like...just know that this is not an official policy of the project, but something that delivered to the leadership team for review.  No action ever took place to move forward on this.

Hope this helps a bit as we think about how to handle bad behavior.  If not, well, at least we've got some documentation here that we can ignore for the future!

Potential Process for Handling Extremely Bad Behavior in Joomla

Cheers,
Ryan

Brad Baker

unread,
Mar 22, 2015, 7:10:51 PM3/22/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
How about a new approach? (as Ryan said, we're back here again.. and will be until we change the way we deal with this issue)
Ask all current and future members to publicly state their agreement to follow the Code of Conduct here: http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html and that they will accept being removed from this project without any arguments if they break this.


On this issue it states:

Be Respectful

Treat one another and members of the community with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Joomla. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior or poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect the members of Joomla community to be respectful when dealing with other volunteers as well as with people from outside projects and initiatives and with users. Avoid becoming involved in flame wars, trolling, personal attacks, and repetitive arguments. Take the matters "outside" (off-list, etc) if it helps resolve the situation, and do not use communal methods of communication to be a vehicle for your private "wall of shame."



I still find it astonishing that we think we need more "documentation" before we can remove individuals. The issue is not that people behave badly, it's that no action is taken when people do behave badly. Why? We're scared that the backlash will be worse than the bad behaviour. Are none of us familiar with what it means to represent or even work for an organisation? As an employer, would you permit badly behaved staff to keep working for you? Why should it be any different with volunteers, they still represent the brand (Joomla) just the same if they were employees.

When is it time to stop treating this project like an social experiment, and instead expect and even demand that representatives of this project be seen as professionally behaved individuals. 


What I'm proposing is something along these lines:

I, Brad Baker agree to follow the Code of Conduct here: http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html and will step down when asked to if it is brought to my attention that I have broken this agreement.


^ PS that wasn't a test, I'l stating my public agreement, on record. I challenge all in leadership to do the same.

Martijn Boomsma

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 4:28:48 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
It needs a little update but it's good enough for me in this discussion:

I, Martijn Boomsma agree to follow the Code of Conduct here: http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html and will step down when asked to if it is brought to my attention that I have broken this agreement.

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma

--

Ryan Ozimek

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 7:10:33 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Brad,

I personally am not concerned about a backlash. I'm concerned about the right approach that balances the uniqueness of an open source community and the protection of individuals within it. I don't believe there is a direct analog between an employee-employer relationship and an international multi-cultural open source project and a community member. A process for banning someone from our community should be documented, there's really no question about that in my mind. You recall the challenges we've had in this area in the past. We should avoid allowing history to repeat itself.

A combination of a code of conduct for community members and volunteers, with a documented process for dealing with bad behavior should be our goal. I've laid the first steps 6 years ago. Maybe you can recommend any changes to this document to give clear direction to future leaders?

Ryan

Sent from my mobile device.
--

Brad Baker

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 7:18:21 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Ryan, I'm happy with the document, I'm just unhappy that we don't use it.

BTW I'm not talking about banning, I'm just talking about removing people from leadership and/or our teams who behave badly.

Ryan Ozimek

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 7:33:14 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Brad,

Sound good to me. Amend the document in whatever way you think covers the type of behavior and consequence you think is right. I agree, it's been too long. Make your edits, let's debate the contents publicly, ratify it and move on.

Can you also propose a way for the leadership to ratify a document like this?

-Ryan


Sent from my mobile device.
--

OSM Joe Sonne

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 8:57:03 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
I really like this approach that Brad has suggested. It’s a great start and just as Martijn jumped on it and made his declaration I wil also do likewise.

I Joe Sonne agree to follow the Code of Conduct here: http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the-project/code-of-conduct.html and will willingly step down if I have broken this agreement.

Joe Sonne [Monday, March 23, 2015]


On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:10 PM, Brad Baker <br...@joomlatutorials.com> wrote:

Victor Drover

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 9:07:30 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
I like Brad's approach, but I don't think it's binding nor authoritative without some way for folks to be required to make the agreement (similar to the contributor agreement). In addition, do existing leadership need to agree to continue to be in leadership, on teams, etc...

I think we need to flesh out the idea a little more. IIRC, the joomla contributor agreement ruffled feathers. I would expect the same here (nothing wrong with that, just an FYI from @captainobvious).

Warm Regards,

Victor Drover
Treasurer, Open Source Matters

Kick-ass Reimbursement Processor
262-309-4140
@VicDrover


Ryan Ozimek

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 9:31:06 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Hi everyone,

I appreciate folks jumping in with ideas, and I like a concept of keep-it-simple, but it would be wise to have an actual process of Leadership Team decision-making.  I'm not proposing anything arduous, but I don't think it's a good idea for us to be using this email thread to start making public proclamations about something that we as a leadership team haven't approved yet. Well, actually, proclaim whatever you'd like, but let's be clear on what we are proclaiming as a team versus individuals in solving this challenge.

We have a tendency to jump from one short-term idea to another, and as a leadership team in charge of a nearly US$500 million dollar budget, we need to do better.

Since it has been uncommon for us as a leadership team as a whole to make a decision on pretty much anything, maybe I can propose a simple 4-phase process moving forward. The purpose is to ensure everyone has had a chance to make a decision based on the details available and to have us clearly document this for history.

1) brainstorming (open idea generation)
2) proposal
3) discussion (debate)
4) decision (vote)

It's pretty much what we do in the Board of Directors when making motions, and I don't think there's a reason why we can't do this as a leadership as a whole. Of course, this does bring to light that we don't have a mechanism for a voting process as a leadership team. I think that will be critical for us to make very important decisions regarding touchy topics like managing bad behavior.

Cheers,
Ryan

Sent from my mobile device.

Sarah Watz

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 10:57:39 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
+1 for Ryan's proposal on the decision making process for the leadership teams.

With warmth,
Sarah

Sarah Watz
President, Open Source Matters, Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/

Rod Martin

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 11:04:49 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com, Sarah Watz
+1 here .

Honestly - we need to get some of these basic functions codified.  


Rod Martin
Vice President - Open Source Matters
@imrodmartin

Ryan Ozimek

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 11:05:02 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Hey everyone,

Just in case you thought I found a money tree somewhere, we actually don't have a "$500 million budget", it's "$500 thousand budget".

Carry on, carry on.

-Ryan

Rod Martin

unread,
Mar 23, 2015, 11:10:09 AM3/23/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com, Ryan Ozimek
LOL.  crap.  I was looking for it already


Rod Martin
Vice President - Open Source Matters
@imrodmartin

Ryan Ozimek

unread,
May 15, 2015, 10:31:50 AM5/15/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Hi folks,

Process is a good thing when things get heated and personal.  No changes have been made to my draft document here, and it's been a few months now, so I assume that people feel it accurately reflects the process this leadership team would like to handle this type of situation.

I'd like us to ratify this as the process our leadership takes in managing these types of situations effectively and professionally.

To do so, we need a way to vote as a Leadership Team, which currently does not exist.  With nothing currently in place, I recommend that we do a simple majority for this and most policies of the Leadership Team.  Does anyone object to that process for this policy document?

Cheers,
Ryan

Rod Martin

unread,
May 15, 2015, 10:35:19 AM5/15/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for doing this Ryan 

I would agree that this is the most expeditious way to get this done.

Thanks


---
Sent from Boxer | http://getboxer.com

Sarah Watz

unread,
May 15, 2015, 11:00:18 AM5/15/15
to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
I agree with you Ryan. Let's vote for the process of the policy document and use simple majority.

With warmth,
Sarah

Sarah Watz
President, Open Source Matters, Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages