Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

[David Jardin]

Hi folks,

as I don't see the benefit in acting like I didn't hear about this, I
prefer the more straightforward approach:
Apparently, OSM is in the process of negotiating a contract with Google,
that includes paid ads in the install-from-web view in the backend of
every Joomla user.

Could someone please tell me if this is true?

Thanks.

Cheers,
David

--
King Regards,
David Jardin

[David Jardin]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSe3H8VWUAA_yCI.png:large

[Peter Bui]

That is quite an interesting move.

I can understand that the project needs more funds overall and I do have to say it is a creative way of doing it.

It would be nice thought to actually fix and get the Install from Web working correctly first and solve some of the usability issues on that before inserting ads into our websites, our customers websites and so forth.

There are concerns around privacy as well. I use google apps/gmail and I had concerns with privacy on that but I got over it quite quickly, but I wouldn't force it in the websites that I'd create for my own clients.

Lastly the mention of not releasing the information publicly should be respected but if more people were consulted about the idea or if it was floated around in away where more people could contribute to it, better alternative might have been created or more ideas in regards to raising revenue for the project could be started collectively.

Peter

[Robert Deutz]

That's the new way, osm discuss behind closed doors and then tell the community what the community has to do. Tired of this shit.

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[Martijn Boomsma]

Robert,

As far as I know the idea was suggested in the Capital Comittee, where Marco DIngs (PLT!) was also included, and after that was shared for the discussion in the last OSM meeting. It was advised in that meeting that more of LT and community should be included in this discussion. Which is why it was shared with PLT. Nothing was decided and certainly not signed! Where does all this ruckus come from?

It would be great if you didn't jump to such conclusions that are untrue.

People are trying to think of ways to make all our / code sprint / sponsoring / events and mostly traveling possible. Can this discussion be constructive and productive please. If you don't agree, that's fine, so share your arguments, not your emotions, thanks ;)

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

[David Jardin]

Hi Martijn,

thanks for the clarification, the original mail that was sent to the PLT sounded like the decission is made and the contract has been signed.

In that case I think we can start collecting arguments for pros and cons, right?

Cheers,
David

Am 29.10.15 um 13:56 schrieb Martijn Boomsma:

-- 
King Regards,
David Jardin

[Martijn Boomsma]

Hi David,

Looking at it I can see how the email was misunderstood. That and all coming from it is unfortunate. Like I said so many times: email is not good for communication, if unsure it's always wise to check. I agree: I think we can start collecting arguments for pros and cons!

Thanks!

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

[Robert Deutz]

Martijn,

"An agreement has been made by OSM with Google to use install from web ( back-end ) to advertise for google apps. " if my english knowledge not fools me totally then this sentence is in the Past (Past Perfect to be totally correct). So I am not jumping on conclusions without any reasons. 

Btw, it isn't the first time, we have seen recently that OSM voted on the last meeting on a financial policy without discussing this with the community.

Cheers,

Robert

[Thomas Hunziker]

The email certainly sounds like the decision is already made for a three month trial and PLT is only asked for the "How To", not the "If". There is no unclear thing within the email, it's clearly written. Nothing to ask back, the decision was made according to the email.

That's why the outrage happend.

Maybe next time, write a better email explaining what you already did and ask what you intend to ask. Then that can be mitigated.

But honestly, the idea is such bad on such many levels, it shouldn't even have been considered and never should have been resulted in an email sent. It should instead had been shot down within 5 minutes in OSM itself. Every admin/user can see that - it's not a developer/code questions.

Kind regards

Thomas

Am Donnerstag, 29. Oktober 2015 13:57:19 UTC+1 schrieb martijn.boomsma:

Robert,

As far as I know the idea was suggested in the Capital Comittee, where Marco DIngs (PLT!) was also included, and after that was shared for the discussion in the last OSM meeting. It was advised in that meeting that more of LT and community should be included in this discussion. Which is why it was shared with PLT. Nothing was decided and certainly not signed! Where does all this ruckus come from?

It would be great if you didn't jump to such conclusions that are untrue.

People are trying to think of ways to make all our / code sprint / sponsoring / events and mostly traveling possible. Can this discussion be constructive and productive please. If you don't agree, that's fine, so share your arguments, not your emotions, thanks ;)

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

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[Ryan Ozimek]

Robert,

"That's the new way, osm discuss behind closed doors and then tell the community what the community has to do. Tired of this shit."

Happy Thursday to you too!

As you know, I'm no longer on the Board of Directors, but I wanted to make sure you heard the following from me.

Before you start making accusations in public like this and trashing your fellow teammates, please, for your own public persona, consider a friendly conversation first.  Ask a question.  Look for clarification.  Heck, ask your own teammate from the PLT that was on the committee that decided to look into this further.  But please, I beg you, don't trash your fellow teammates like this.  We're all volunteering for the betterment of our community.

-Ryan

PS:  Didn't you say about 5 months ago that you were going to resign from the PLT as well?  What's the update? =)

[Robert Deutz]

Ryan,

Happy Thursday to you too.

You obviously haven't read what was shared.

Robert

[Ronni Christiansen]

I am no longer on the OSM board but volunteering in the capital team.

We are missing a lot of money next year in the budget due to various reasons - and the capital team has been working like mad to try and come up with new oportunities. (decreasing income from advertising on the JED being one).

Those of us who worked on this thought it was a good idea primarily due to these reasons:

1) It brings more money to the table
2) We think a closer relation with Google is positive (Google Summer of code etc.)
3) One the main income sources of the project for the last 10 years has been Google Ads on the JED
4) Install from web is a remotely loaded version of the JED that you have to activate from within Joomla so its not being shipped as part of the CMS as such.
5) Increasing advertisement exposure from the JED can help to regain some of the funds not coming in now.

Its quite clear that unless we find new ways to bring in money to the project the amount of code sprints, joomla representation at non-joomla events, jet program etc. through out all levels of the project will be affected in the 2016 budget.

In all fairness - if the PLT thought this was a bad idea then why on earth dont you just write that back instead of leaking all the information as well as exposing a very important partner to this public outcry.

You dont debate sponsorships, partnerships, personal issues etc. in public at all while they are ongoing - that has to be one of the most simple rules of leadership there is - because if you do you are bound to hurt someone - weather it be the project itself, its volunteers or the partners and sponsors that make things possible.

So Robert if you and your gang needs someone to piss on - then piss on me - i was a instrumental part of negotiating the terms of Googles proposal to us and for offering this oportunity to our project and community to help fund future activities in 2016 and onwards.

[Robert Deutz]

Ronni, there isn't a "Robert and his gang"

Thanks for stopping spreading FUD about me.

[marco.dings]

Sorry to be partially at the root of this where my phrasing was not understood as I intended it and thus adding to the confusion and emotions.

Marco Dings

Joomla! Production leadership

Joomla 4 project manager

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert Deutz <robert...@community.joomla.org>
Date: 2015/10/29 13:22 (GMT+00:00)
To: joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Joomla-Leadership-Group] Re: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Martijn,

"An agreement has been made by OSM with Google to use install from web ( back-end ) to advertise for google apps. " if my english knowledge not fools me totally then this sentence is in the Past (Past Perfect to be totally correct). So I am not jumping on conclusions without any reasons. 

Btw, it isn't the first time, we have seen recently that OSM voted on the last meeting on a financial policy without discussing this with the community.

Cheers,

Robert

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Jardin <david....@community.joomla.org> wrote:

Hi Martijn,

thanks for the clarification, the original mail that was sent to the PLT sounded like the decission is made and the contract has been signed.

In that case I think we can start collecting arguments for pros and cons, right?

Cheers,
David

Am 29.10.15 um 13:56 schrieb Martijn Boomsma:

Robert,

As far as I know the idea was suggested in the Capital Comittee, where Marco DIngs (PLT!) was also included, and after that was shared for the discussion in the last OSM meeting. It was advised in that meeting that more of LT and community should be included in this discussion. Which is why it was shared with PLT. Nothing was decided and certainly not signed! Where does all this ruckus come from?

It would be great if you didn't jump to such conclusions that are untrue.

People are trying to think of ways to make all our / code sprint / sponsoring / events and mostly traveling possible. Can this discussion be constructive and productive please. If you don't agree, that's fine, so share your arguments, not your emotions, thanks ;)

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

2015-10-29 13:24 GMT+01:00 Robert Deutz <robert...@community.joomla.org>:

That's the new way, osm discuss behind closed doors and then tell the community what the community has to do. Tired of this shit.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Peter Bui <pete...@community.joomla.org> wrote:

That is quite an interesting move.

I can understand that the project needs more funds overall and I do have to say it is a creative way of doing it.

It would be nice thought to actually fix and get the Install from Web working correctly first and solve some of the usability issues on that before inserting ads into our websites, our customers websites and so forth.

There are concerns around privacy as well. I use google apps/gmail and I had concerns with privacy on that but I got over it quite quickly, but I wouldn't force it in the websites that I'd create for my own clients.

Lastly the mention of not releasing the information publicly should be respected but if more people were consulted about the idea or if it was floated around in away where more people could contribute to it, better alternative might have been created or more ideas in regards to raising revenue for the project could be started collectively.

Peter

 

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:50:35 PM UTC+11, David Jardin wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSe3H8VWUAA_yCI.png:large

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 9:51:40 AM UTC+1, David Jardin wrote:

Hi folks,

as I don't see the benefit in acting like I didn't hear about this, I
prefer the more straightforward approach:
Apparently, OSM is in the process of negotiating a contract with Google,
that includes paid ads in the install-from-web view in the backend of
every Joomla user.

Could someone please tell me if this is true?

Thanks.

Cheers,
David

--
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David Jardin

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[Martijn Boomsma]

I'm not sure who wrote that email but it was unfortunately stated to say the least :) Let him/her be denied beer and burritos at any eventual next event. It probably was the intern anyway.

As for the idea, I don't have such a stong opinion about it, but that's still what it is. Your opinion. I don't want to defend the idea because it's not mine but I won't decide untill I heard more of the arguments for it and against it.

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

2015-10-29 14:29 GMT+01:00 Thomas Hunziker <werbe...@bakual.ch>:

The email certainly sounds like the decision is already made for a three month trial and PLT is only asked for the "How To", not the "If". There is no unclear thing within the email, it's clearly written. Nothing to ask back, the decision was made according to the email.

That's why the outrage happend.

Maybe next time, write a better email explaining what you already did and ask what you intend to ask. Then that can be mitigated.

But honestly, the idea is such bad on such many levels, it shouldn't even have been considered and never should have been resulted in an email sent. It should instead had been shot down within 5 minutes in OSM itself. Every admin/user can see that - it's not a developer/code questions.

Kind regards

Thomas

Am Donnerstag, 29. Oktober 2015 13:57:19 UTC+1 schrieb martijn.boomsma:

Robert,

As far as I know the idea was suggested in the Capital Comittee, where Marco DIngs (PLT!) was also included, and after that was shared for the discussion in the last OSM meeting. It was advised in that meeting that more of LT and community should be included in this discussion. Which is why it was shared with PLT. Nothing was decided and certainly not signed! Where does all this ruckus come from?

It would be great if you didn't jump to such conclusions that are untrue.

People are trying to think of ways to make all our / code sprint / sponsoring / events and mostly traveling possible. Can this discussion be constructive and productive please. If you don't agree, that's fine, so share your arguments, not your emotions, thanks ;)

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

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[Martijn Boomsma]

Robert,

The email was clearly unfortunately phrased by someone. As for your comment:

"Btw, it isn't the first time, we have seen recently that OSM voted on the last meeting on a financial policy without discussing this with the community."

It's off topic so maybe you want to start a new topic about it? I think it's untrue and I don't want to leave that unsaid. And to be clear, maybe you can define in that same topic who "the community" is exactly who should discuss the financial policy? Anyone interested in Joomla? Anyone on the forum? Anyone on twitter that might have on opinion about it?

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

[Robert Deutz]

"It's off topic so maybe you want to start a new topic about it?" 

I don't think it is off topic and I'll not start a topic about it, thanks.

[Ryan Ozimek]

Hola Robert,

It would be awesome if you could enumerate the specific instances of the Board of Directors meeting on a financial policy that you believe should have required a discussion with the community first.  I can't speak for Martijn and Vic, but I know that I'd be interested in seeing this list so that the financial team can learn more about your concerns and address them accordingly.

The more details our teams have, the easier it is to tackle challenges together constructively.

Cheers,
Ryan

[Peter Bui]

Thanks for the clarification everyone.

Just as a side note, the only person on this thread that may have been taught english from birth (*assumption*) is Ryan.

Peter

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 4:12:58 AM UTC+11, Ryan Ozimek wrote:

Hola Robert,

It would be awesome if you could enumerate the specific instances of the Board of Directors meeting on a financial policy that you believe should have required a discussion with the community first.  I can't speak for Martijn and Vic, but I know that I'd be interested in seeing this list so that the financial team can learn more about your concerns and address them accordingly.

The more details our teams have, the easier it is to tackle challenges together constructively.

Cheers,
Ryan

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Robert Deutz <robert.deutz@community.joomla.org> wrote:

"It's off topic so maybe you want to start a new topic about it?" 

I don't think it is off topic and I'll not start a topic about it, thanks.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:12 PM, Martijn Boomsma <martijn.boomsma@opensourcematters.org> wrote:

Robert,

The email was clearly unfortunately phrased by someone. As for your comment:

"Btw, it isn't the first time, we have seen recently that OSM voted on the last meeting on a financial policy without discussing this with the community."

It's off topic so maybe you want to start a new topic about it? I think it's untrue and I don't want to leave that unsaid. And to be clear, maybe you can define in that same topic who "the community" is exactly who should discuss the financial policy? Anyone interested in Joomla? Anyone on the forum? Anyone on twitter that might have on opinion about it?

Warm Regards,

Martijn Boomsma
Open Source Matters Inc.
http://www.opensourcematters.org/
Joomla! http://www.joomla.org/

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[Chris Davenport]

I'm all in favour of the Capital Committee looking into any and all options they can think of, so in that respect I support their initiative in coming up with the idea.  I also trust that the leadership team has the collective good sense and judgement to filter out the really good ideas from the non-starters and to do so with the best interests of our project at heart.

What dismays me is that someone took it upon themselves to publish part of the internal discussion in a way that was apparently intended to cause damage.  This is not the first time that this has happened and I sincerely wish that those people who think it's okay to publish internal discussions and negotiations in the name of transparency would one day try it in their place of employment and see what happens.

Please don't read into this that I support the idea, because I don't.  But I do support the Capital Committee's attempts to come up with imaginative solutions to expanding our budget.

Chris.

On 29 October 2015 at 21:46, Peter Bui <pete...@community.joomla.org> wrote:

Thanks for the clarification everyone.

Just as a side note, the only person on this thread that may have been taught english from birth (*assumption*) is Ryan.

Peter

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 4:12:58 AM UTC+11, Ryan Ozimek wrote:

Hola Robert,

It would be awesome if you could enumerate the specific instances of the Board of Directors meeting on a financial policy that you believe should have required a discussion with the community first.  I can't speak for Martijn and Vic, but I know that I'd be interested in seeing this list so that the financial team can learn more about your concerns and address them accordingly.

The more details our teams have, the easier it is to tackle challenges together constructively.

Cheers,
Ryan

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Robert Deutz <robert...@community.joomla.org> wrote:

"It's off topic so maybe you want to start a new topic about it?" 

I don't think it is off topic and I'll not start a topic about it, thanks.

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Chris Davenport
Joomla Production Leadership Team

[Ryan Ozimek]

Hi Robert,

I'd like to follow-up on my question regarding your concerns.

Can you help the Board of Directors by outlining the instances where the Board met and decided on financial policies that you believe should have required a discussion with the community first?  I hear your general concern, but without specific details, it's difficult to have a productive discussion about the remedies we can seek as a team.

Cheers,

Ryan