Looking for the Better

[Kenneth Slayor]

I have been attempting since October 6th to create a website. The website technically exists, and I have managed to do some very minor things on it without help. I cannot afford to spend $50.00 a month to get a tweak or two, and still never accomplish the goals.

My largest difficulty is I find the interface complicated, scattered irrationally, and utterly unfriendly to me as a user. I am not the only liberal arts oriented person who uses computers for pretty much everything. It was implied that the changes I think would make Joomla better are all in documentation. I don't know what that is supposed to mean to me, as I am not a programmer and I no longer wish to be. (I attempted to figure out how to program for 35 years before I gave up.)

I was always excellent at writing flow charts, two to three decades ago. I have training and experience in organizational analysis. I understand that what will make the kind of website creation and maintenance interface I see as beneficial to all social organizations (clubs to businesses) on the net centers entirely on the data base management. I also understand that in order to be flexible enough to work with the creativity of the human mind editing options for this database would have to be very dynamic and exhaustive.

Back End: Ideally, the code would allow a person to use 'drag and drop' and mouse clicks to create and station fields in a HUD for the creation of a dynamic platform. Multiple HUDs would be possible as the underlying framework of the templates. Templates would then be themed individually and appliable to pages via a menu at the creation of that page.

Three different nouns need database approaches: persons, places, and things. The initial entry of any person, place, or thing into the database is essentially the same as creating an account. A person would fill out an application to join. A place would receive a description with specific kinds of data (location, coordinates, map, image, legal description, elevation, climate, etc.) which should be customizable. Descriptions of things (awards, merchandise, recipes, etc.) also need specific kinds of data which should be customizable. For handling the database of members, information should be part of a member database with multiple expressions of access: the site admin should have access to all data necessary for that function, the member whose record it is should allow them to toggle on and off what will be displayed in their public profile (and the ability to preview this). Each of these types of database should be created and modifiable through the creation of the template for that page - along with certain permissions being granted to fields for purposes of editing or adding to content.

For example, if a template is created for a place so that a city could be described, then a table could be added which would contain a list of businesses in that city, their address, phone, website, etc. But in addition clicking on the columns for the city and address should allow for modification from the front end by authorized personnel. When said personnel makes an entry on the table, clicking the name of the business would establish and launch a new page where that business could be described more in depth. A social site for writers mite use the same table structure so that an author could place the title of poems, short stories, or characters in a column - which again establish and launch a new page where the poem, short story, or a character sketch would be written out and the data row from that table (title, date written, nom de plume used, length, etc.) would appear at the top above the window of the text. Images would be possible on these description pages as well.

Ranks would not come preset, as member, author, superuser, but would have an initial super user position obviously. However, all other ranks in the membership of the site would be generated by asking questions that make sense when one hits the create ranks button. Ranks would be mapped by position in an organizational chart where ranks may be positioned both hierarchically and laterally. Multiple chains of command may be necessary as well. Further, chains of command should not be intrinsically tied to departments or positions. Departmental access and specific positions of authority within a department should have separate powers which can be defined by the superuser in order to enhance the divisions of labor and accountability. In this way a person may have limited rank, but a position of responsibility with sufficient power to do the job they are good at without risking negative group impact by tying them to power over others which their personality may not warrant. Further, ranks, departments, and positions should be displayable not only in text, but also in drop down menus that allow the assignment of icons/symbols to represent them.

Another aspect completely ignored in personnel management of a site is content access by rating. Two fundamental systems exist, and a website for social interaction ought to be able to adopt and use whichever fits the location of the site owner(s). I refer of course to ESRB and PEGI. If an administrator of a site wants to set content to be age appropriate then they should be able to set certain pages, articles, forums, galleries, etc. as non-accessible by those who are below age requirement. Consider an online art club: They may wish to allow family participation where the children of members may post their images as well as the adult members. A person who reproduces Venus and the Lute Player may want to have their work critiqued by fellow students of the arts without sharing the image with their friends 7 year old. Being able to set such access within a site would allow family participation and adult supervision at the same time.

Intrinsic calendar systems should be a part of every system. The entire point of social interaction is the event. While many aspects of the net, such as blogging, can be done at the leisure of the blogger and the reader independently, other things cannot. Scheduling sports events, charity events, conferences, tournament game play, etc. all require scheduling. (Of which the best I have seen so far is Ohana, but this should have been innate to the program.) Scheduling events is primary to every social venue.

And concerning sports, chess clubs, or the stock car rallies - there are no tournament trees. Trees for following the results of competition, whether a high school athletics club or something less complicated don't seem to exist.

All of this should be doable by the site administrator in a drag and drop, topical manner equal with ease of use to Microsoft Word or at the very least Open Office.

[Jonathan Neubauer]

ok

[Tom]

Hi Kenneth

I'm a little unsure if you actually have a question or are just listing desired features you wish to see. Or alternatively are making a proposal on how the interface should be.

This is the documentation mail list for Joomla! We don't really discuss new features unless they are added to the actual core of Joomla and need to be documented.

Tom

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[Kenneth Slayor]

I can see where you might see these as new features.  I was directed here by a Global Moderator at Joomla who seemed to think that I am interested in improving Joomla documentation.  What I am interested in is seeing a package that works for a wider audience and will be intuitive in use to a world of interests and needs.  I find the current industry wide mindset to be one limited to the perspective of programmers for blogging.  My experience with Joomla has been negative because it is randomly and illogically laid out, not focused on the step by step creation of the user's goals, and designed only for those who are inside the industry.

The fact is I do not want to be a programmer.  I do not think the advances in the web should only be limited to supporting those who are.  I am attempting to reach someone who would like to see Joomla become something better than its current limitations.  What I generally perceive is that while people may be having fun in a volunteer venture with a great deal of commitment to their personal projects, no one is actually concerned with evolution to the greater world of possibilities - especially if this means making it functional and feasible for the non-programming population.

For more on what my concerns are see:  http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=615&t=828681

[Chad Windnagle]

Hi Kenneth:

The mailing lists typically have a culture of discussing and coming up with solutions for how certain things are accomplished in the project. So with that in mind I think many people reading your topic are failing to understand what you're trying to accomplish here. Your post is long, difficult to piece together and hard to follow. It's unclear what we can do to help you right now.

So to try to clear that up and maybe point you in the right direction:

Documentation

-All of Joomla's official documentation is at docs.joomla.org

-- If you feel this documentation is lacking, it's a 'wiki' and you can create an account, login, and update content items as necessary. 

Code

-All the coding is done at Github.com/joomla/joomla-cms

-We also handle bug 'tracking' at Joomlacode.com but are in the process of migrating to a new tracker at: issues.joomla.org

User Experience
-There is a Joomla User Experience team at http://ux.joomla.org/

-- Please note: With Joomla's long term / short term release cycle making dramatic changes to things like the layout or the way joomla "works" overall will be very difficult. 

If you're interested in trying to solve 'problems' in Joomla my recommendation to you would be to pick "one" problem. One at a time. Don't try to fix all of joomla in a day. Find one specific thing that you can clearly articulate. Describe the problem clearly and offer the solution. Then those of us with the programming chops can get involved. 

That said - don't expect every suggestion you make to be accepted. Joomla's current state is in many people's opinion "not that bad". 

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

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[Tom Hutchison]

Hi Kenneth,

 

Thanks for the links to your forum posts. I couldn't say it any better than Chad already did, thanks Chad.

 

Take care

Tom Hutchison