Joomla Browser Support

[Rouven Weßling]

Hello everybody,

as previously discussed with some people I think it's time we agree more formally which browsers we actively support (and test) and which not. Of course it should always be out goal to make Joomla as accessible as possible but the truth is that supporting older browsers limits what cool new features we can offer.

To start a discussion I started a wiki document (http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla_Browser_Support) with what I'd consider reasonable browser support for Joomla 2.5 and 3.0. The most interesting points are probably dropping support for Internet Explorer 7 and Firefox 2.6 with Joomla 3.0. Also for Chrome and Opera I don't think it makes sense to support more than the most current release.

I will explain some of my choices later if this is wanted but I'd like to explain dropping Internet Explorer 7 right now.

By the time Joomla 3.0 will be released (July 2012) Internet Explorer 7 will likely have fallen below 5% global market share, about the same market share Internet Explorer 6 had when Joomla 1.6 was released. Dropping Internet Explorer 7 mainly frees us from testing and finding workarounds, but we can use some new features more freely as well (http://caniuse.com/#compare=y&b1=ie+7&b2=ie+8), for example CSS generated content.

What are you thoughts on this matter? Would the PLT consider making something like this an official policy?

Best regards
Rouven

[Nick Savov]

Looks like a good strategy! :)

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[Jen Kramer]

I am not a programmer, but I do a lot of training with end-users.
Sometimes things "don't work" for clients. As part of a testing
process, I have to figure out what browser the client is running.
There are still plenty of clients running IE 6 or 7, particularly if
they are still on Windows XP. Don't laugh, they're out there. And even
some computer training centers are still on XP/IE 6.

However, I fully support moving forward in the world and not
supporting old browsers.

What would really be nice is if someone would write some code that
would do this:

- As part of the login process, test which browser the user is using.

- If it's a supported browser, do nothing.

- If it's not a supported browser, please display a message on top of
the screen (preferably one that can't be missed!) stating the user is
working with an unsupported browser, with a link to Joomla's browser
support policy page. The support page should provide links to places
where users can get more recent versions of IE, Firefox, Chrome, and
Safari. (If they're using a browser other than those, my guess is they
have enough geek skills to get the update on their own.)

The browser support policy page should state this is the policy for
using the admin/editing side of Joomla only. Explain that which
browsers supported on the front end for public display can be
completely different if the developer chooses to make it work that
way.

If there's any way you can embed more information about "unsupported
browsers" into that error message, it would be great, but my guess is
it's easier to update a docs page with the latest information rather
than put it in the Joomla installation.

Thanks all,
Jen

[Matt Thomas]

Jen,

Would something like this http://code.google.com/p/sevenup/ work for you?

Best,

Matt Thomas

Founder betweenbrain™

Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework

Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain

--

[Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos]

I believe that such code is already part of all RocketTheme templates and, the last year, their GPL-licensed Gantry framework. Perhaps we could ask RocketTheme for permission to use their IE6 warning code or, even better, if they would like to provide a system plugin to that end.

-- 
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com

Web: http://www.AkeebaBackup.com

Blog: http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog

[Andrew J. Holden]

Here's one more: http://www.ie6nomore.com/

- Andrew H.
Weever Apps

On 12 Aug, 09:23, "Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos" <nikosd...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>  I believe that such code is already part of all RocketTheme templates and, the last year, their GPL-licensed Gantry framework. Perhaps we could ask RocketTheme for permission to use their IE6 warning code or, even better, if they would like to provide a system plugin to that end.  
>
> --  
> Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
> Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
> Web:http://www.AkeebaBackup.com
> Blog:http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, 12 August 2011 at 16:10, Matt Thomas wrote:
> > Jen,
>

> > Would something like thishttp://code.google.com/p/sevenup/work for you?
>
> > Best,
>
> > Matt Thomas
> > Founder betweenbrain (http://betweenbrain.com/)™
> > Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework (http://joomlaengineering.com/)
> > Phone: 203.632.9322
> >  Twitter: @betweenbrain

> > >  On Aug 11, 1:20 pm, Rouven Weßling <m...@rouvenwessling.de (mailto:m...@rouvenwessling.de)> wrote:
> > > > Hello everybody,
>
> > > > as previously discussed with some people I think it's time we agree more formally which browsers we actively support (and test) and which not. Of course it should always be out goal to make Joomla as accessible as possible but the truth is that supporting older browsers limits what cool new features we can offer.
>
> > > > To start a discussion I started a wiki document (http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla_Browser_Support) with what I'd consider reasonable browser support for Joomla 2.5 and 3.0. The most interesting points are probably dropping support for Internet Explorer 7 and Firefox 2.6 with Joomla 3.0. Also for Chrome and Opera I don't think it makes sense to support more than the most current release.
>
> > > > I will explain some of my choices later if this is wanted but I'd like to explain dropping Internet Explorer 7 right now.
>
> > > > By the time Joomla 3.0 will be released (July 2012) Internet Explorer 7 will likely have fallen below 5% global market share, about the same market share Internet Explorer 6 had when Joomla 1.6 was released. Dropping Internet Explorer 7 mainly frees us from testing and finding workarounds, but we can use some new features more freely as well (http://caniuse.com/#compare=y&b1=ie+7&b2=ie+8), for example CSS generated content.
>
> > > > What are you thoughts on this matter? Would the PLT consider making something like this an official policy?
>
> > > > Best regards
> > > > Rouven
>
> > >  --
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>
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[Chad Windnagle]

Definitely a good way to handle dropping support for older browsers, Jen. Nicholas I like the idea of getting a system plugin from RT. There also some existing plugins that would just need to be brought into the core already in the JED: http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/style-a-design/browsers-a-web-standards

It would probably be pretty easy for them to be converted to admin-only system plugins for logged in backend users as Jen suggested.

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

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[Rouven Weßling]

Hi.

On 12.08.2011, at 16:41, Kevin wrote:

"Firefox 6 (expected to be released on August 16th) and newer" http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla_Browser_Support
But what if FF in Ubuntu doesn't keep up with the speed of the FF updates for windows(cough, spit, wash my mouth out) ?

I do realize that this is a tough call (Ubuntu's last LTS released 10.4 will be supported until April 2013 and shipped with Firefox 3.6) but we can only test so many browsers and supporting older Firefox releases will likely soon not be worth it due declining market share. But users dependent on support for Ubuntu 10.4 could stick with Joomla 2.5 which would continue to support Firefox 3.6.

Also while we may not actively support older Firefox versions they will most likely continue to work just fine due to their far better support for Web standards compared to still supported versions of Internet Explorer. I just don't think we can afford to test so many browsers when they push out a new release every 3 months or so.

"Internet Explorer 8 and newer"
What if businesses consider upgrading their OS to a higher version as 'unnecessary' expense ?

Internet explorer 8 works on anything Windows XP SP2 or newer - anyone using an older OS is, in my opinion, a fool because there are unpatched security issues. So upgrading the OS shouldn't be necessary. I due know that browser updates aren't free for large corporations (considering testing, certifications if necessary and so on) but do we really wanna be held back by enterprise users to cheap to update their browser?

On 12.08.2011, at 12:56, Leo Lammerink wrote:

Source I used is for non subscribers (I am paying so I am able to see the geographical spread) http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=150
This gives you at least the overview as per date globally. If you want to be able to run IE9 for instance you need Windows 7.....Once again People cannot afford the upgrade costs or a new W7 license fee. I can see that in my own environment. And IE9 is strategic....amongst others. Besides that you can't force people to abandon their favorite browser and fact is also that IE9 is gaining ground for MS. 

I am not sure what point you're trying to make. Obviously we'll have to support Internet Explorer 8 and 9 for the foreseeable future, my proposal make not attempt of dropping support for them. As explained above Internet Explorer 8 works on all versions of Windows still supported by Microsoft so there should be no need to update the OS (if you're using an OS unsupported by its vendor it's your own fault)

As for the Asian market, it's true that it's the market that using old Microsoft browsers the most but luckily Chrome has gotten quite good the past year. Here are the asian stats for last month from StatCounter: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-ww-monthly-201107-201107-bar

As you can see Internet Explorer 7 is just over 7%. Considering the proposal means dropping it in one year from that point I think it's pretty reasonable. Also consider that IE6 had over 11% of market share when Joomla 1.6 was released.

Now there are markets like China were IE6 is still the leading browser (almost 39%, http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-CN-monthly-201107-201107-bar), which is certainly troublesome but we don't support IE6 anyways.

Best regards

Rouven

[Pete Jones]

While everyone yearns for a level playing field when it comes to
browsers, I'm uncertain if we'll see IE6/7 disappear that quickly.
When you consider there is a large section of the UK government
organisations still unable to move (due to cost or being tied to IE6)
I would prefer to go down a responsive route, using something like
Modernizr and Yepnope.js to provide support/polyfills where required.

[Mike Carson]

My thoughts on this topic is that the Joomla minimum requirements list for each version should also include the minimum browser requirements and which ones are supported.
Currently browsers are not included on that list and I feel that they should be.

Mike

[Nick Savov]

Hi Jen,

Great idea!

Why just stop there though? For the person who writes the script, it
should be fairly easy to make it an option in the global configuration,
including an option to turn it off/on for displaying a warning in the
front-end as well (not on login).

Making it an option for the backend is a good idea because some 3rd party
admin templates may support browser versions that the core admin templates
do not.

Kind regards,
Nick

[Rouven Weßling]

On 12.08.2011, at 10:35, Pete Jones wrote:

> While everyone yearns for a level playing field when it comes to
> browsers, I'm uncertain if we'll see IE6/7 disappear that quickly.
> When you consider there is a large section of the UK government
> organisations still unable to move (due to cost or being tied to IE6)
> I would prefer to go down a responsive route, using something like
> Modernizr and Yepnope.js to provide support/polyfills where required.

First please note Joomla 1.6/1.7 already doesn't support Internet Explorer 6.

Modernizer and Yenope.js are both really cool projects but they can do only so much. While polyfills are often possible for script features many CSS features can't easily be made working with polyfills. CSS Generated Content would be an example for this.

Best regards
Rouven

[Micheas Herman]

In the interest of throwing a monkey wrench in the discussion.

How about a modified version of Yahoo's graded browser support?

( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/ for yahoo's complete
philosophy.)

In overview:

Grade A Browsers - The Joomla project will accept bug reports for this
browser and you should have a full user experience.

Grade C Browsers - These browsers are sent a no javascript version of
the site. IE6 and lower, Fireforx 2 and lower, phoenix and others that
are known to lie about what they can do. The UI can be clunky and
could even be blacklisted from the admin section at first, until
someone takes
up the challenge of making a grade C admin template.

Grade X Browsers - 16,000 or so web browsers that nobody is testing.
Bugs will be tested on a grade A browser and marked WON'T fix grade X
browser if the bug is minor and not reproducible on a grade A browser,
If the bug is sever The browser will be added to the grade C list.

There is a lot more work, but it might be the type of work that people
would be eager to do.

This could also help with pushing releases out on time, as one could
check off each browser as done.

It might be a completely unworkable idea, but I thought it would be
worthwhile to at least actively reject the plan as too much work.

--Micheas

[Nick Savov]

Too much work :)

> In the interest of throwing a monkey wrench in the discussion.
>
> How about a modified version of Yahoo's graded browser support?
>
> ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/ for yahoo's complete
> philosophy.)
>
> In overview:
>
> Grade A Browsers - The Joomla project will accept bug reports for this
> browser and you should have a full user experience.
>
> Grade C Browsers - These browsers are sent a no javascript version of
> the site. IE6 and lower, Fireforx 2 and lower, phoenix and others that
> are known to lie about what they can do. The UI can be clunky and
> could even be blacklisted from the admin section at first, until
> someone takes
> up the challenge of making a grade C admin template.
>
> Grade X Browsers - 16,000 or so web browsers that nobody is testing.
> Bugs will be tested on a grade A browser and marked WON'T fix grade X
> browser if the bug is minor and not reproducible on a grade A browser,
> If the bug is sever The browser will be added to the grade C list.
>
> There is a lot more work, but it might be the type of work that people
> would be eager to do.
>
> This could also help with pushing releases out on time, as one could
> check off each browser as done.
>
> It might be a completely unworkable idea, but I thought it would be
> worthwhile to at least actively reject the plan as too much work.
>
> --Micheas
>

> On Aug 12, 9:56�am, Rouven We�ling <m...@rouvenwessling.de> wrote:
>> On 12.08.2011, at 10:35, Pete Jones wrote:
>>
>> > While everyone yearns for a level playing field when it comes to
>> > browsers, I'm uncertain if we'll see IE6/7 disappear that quickly.
>> > When you consider there is a large section of the UK government
>> > organisations still unable to move (due to cost or being tied to IE6)
>> > I would prefer to go down a responsive route, using something like
>> > Modernizr and Yepnope.js to provide support/polyfills where required.
>>
>> First please note Joomla 1.6/1.7 already doesn't support Internet
>> Explorer 6.
>>
>> Modernizer and Yenope.js are both really cool projects but they can do
>> only so much. While polyfills are often possible for script features
>> many CSS features can't easily be made working with polyfills. CSS
>> Generated Content would be an example for this.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Rouven
>

[Ofer Cohen]

And here is one more which build by Microsoft: http://www.ie6countdown.com/

Ofer Cohen

On 08/12/2011 04:31 PM, Andrew J. Holden wrote:

Here's one more: http://www.ie6nomore.com/

- Andrew H.
Weever Apps

On 12 Aug, 09:23, "Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos" <nikosd...@gmail.com>
wrote:

�I believe that such code is already part of all RocketTheme templates and, the last year, their GPL-licensed Gantry framework. Perhaps we could ask RocketTheme for permission to use their IE6 warning code or, even better, if they would like to provide a system plugin to that end. �

-- �
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
Web:http://www.AkeebaBackup.com

Blog:http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog







On Friday, 12 August 2011 at 16:10, Matt Thomas wrote:

Jen,

Would something like thishttp://code.google.com/p/sevenup/work for you?

Best,

Matt Thomas
Founder betweenbrain (http://betweenbrain.com/)�
Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework (http://joomlaengineering.com/)
Phone: 203.632.9322
�Twitter: @betweenbrain

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Jen Kramer <focused...@gmail.com (mailto:focused...@gmail.com)> wrote:

�I am not a programmer, but I do a lot of training with end-users.
�Sometimes things "don't work" for clients. As part of a testing
�process, I have to figure out what browser the client is running.
�There are still plenty of clients running IE 6 or 7, particularly if
�they are still on Windows XP. Don't laugh, they're out there. And even
�some computer training centers are still on XP/IE 6.

�However, I fully support moving forward in the world and not
�supporting old browsers.

�What would really be nice is if someone would write some code that
�would do this:

�- As part of the login process, test which browser the user is using.

�- If it's a supported browser, do nothing.

�- If it's not a supported browser, please display a message on top of
�the screen (preferably one that can't be missed!) stating the user is
�working with an unsupported browser, with a link to Joomla's browser
�support policy page. The support page should provide links to places
�where users can get more recent versions of IE, Firefox, Chrome, and
�Safari. (If they're using a browser other than those, my guess is they
�have enough geek skills to get the update on their own.)

�The browser support policy page should state this is the policy for
�using the admin/editing side of Joomla only. Explain that which
�browsers supported on the front end for public display can be
�completely different if the developer chooses to make it work that
�way.

�If there's any way you can embed more information about "unsupported
�browsers" into that error message, it would be great, but my guess is
�it's easier to update a docs page with the latest information rather
�than put it in the Joomla installation.

�Thanks all,
�Jen

�On Aug 11, 1:20 pm, Rouven We�ling <m...@rouvenwessling.de (mailto:m...@rouvenwessling.de)> wrote:

Hello everybody,

as previously discussed with some people I think it's time we agree more formally which browsers we actively support (and test) and which not. Of course it should always be out goal to make Joomla as accessible as possible but the truth is that supporting older browsers limits what cool new features we can offer.

To start a discussion I started a wiki document (http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla_Browser_Support) with what I'd consider reasonable browser support for Joomla 2.5 and 3.0. The most interesting points are probably dropping support for Internet Explorer 7 and Firefox 2.6 with Joomla 3.0. Also for Chrome and Opera I don't think it makes sense to support more than the most current release.

I will explain some of my choices later if this is wanted but I'd like to explain dropping Internet Explorer 7 right now.

By the time Joomla 3.0 will be released (July 2012) Internet Explorer 7 will likely have fallen below 5% global market share, about the same market share Internet Explorer 6 had when Joomla 1.6 was released. Dropping Internet Explorer 7 mainly frees us from testing and finding workarounds, but we can use some new features more freely as well (http://caniuse.com/#compare=y&b1=ie+7&b2=ie+8), for example CSS generated content.

What are you thoughts on this matter? Would the PLT consider making something like this an official policy?

Best regards
Rouven

�--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! CMS Development" group.
�To post to this group, send an email to joomla-...@googlegroups.com (mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com).
�To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com (mailto:joomla-dev-cms%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com).
�For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.

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�To post to this group, send an email to joomla-...@googlegroups.com (mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com).
�To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com (mailto:joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com).
�For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms?hl=en-GB.

[Jen Kramer]

Hi all!

Assuming there's some official browser policy (we can wait to hear
from the PLT on that)...

Matt: http://code.google.com/p/sevenup/ looks great. It looks like it
tests for IE 6 only by default, but you could make it do other things.

Nicholas: I'm all for getting code from RocketTheme if they are
willing to donate.

Chad and Andrew: Yes, tons of scripts out there for doing this!!!

Everyone -- yes, I'm aware some government agencies and large
corporations are tied to some older browser versions. Do we know if
they are also Joomla users?
Are there other admin templates that they could use instead that would
meet their needs? If not, seems like an opportunity for someone to
write such a
template and charge lots of money for it.

Micheas -- I really like your idea, but unless someone(s) were willing
to commit to long-term and consistent maintenance, I could see how it
might be an issue.

Thanks all,
Jen

[elin]

The point is not only whether they are Joomla users it is whether they might visit a Joomla website while at work. Given that Joomla is 2.7% of the net, the answer is probably yes sooner or later they will and the extent to which webmasters get complaints and then show up in the J forums and tracker or on twitter complaining. We had a user at JUGNY who came in saying he had gone to his bank to discuss a loan, attempted to show the website  and the loan officer was using IE6 and the site looked bad. So there are lots of ways this becomes an issue. 

One thing we can definitely think about is separating the admin from the front end on this making the back end requirements higher.

For reference on the enterprise competition:   http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc263526.aspx. (I like how they say Not Tested). 

Elin 

[Rouven Weßling]

On 13.08.2011, at 18:29, elin wrote:

One thing we can definitely think about is separating the admin from the front end on this making the back end requirements higher.

I think this is de facto already true. Since template designer can control almost 100% of the fronted out put it is really up to them what browsers are supported. I think it is reasonable to just support one set of browser for site and admin. What I think we could do is support less browsers in the installation, but that is mostly a selfish thought because I like to toy with the installation. (however I could make very compelling arguments to that effect if the need arises) ;)

Rouven

[elin]

I agree it is de facto true, but I guess we need a standard for the core templates even though templaters may demand higher (or for a price lower :P).

Elin

[Niels Braczek]

Am 12.08.2011 15:10, schrieb Matt Thomas:

> Would something like this http://code.google.com/p/sevenup/ work for you?

I use http://browser-update.com/ in all of my templates.

Regards,
Niels

--
| http://www.kolleg.de · Das Portal der Kollegs in Deutschland |
| http://www.bsds.de · BSDS Braczek Software- und DatenSysteme |
| Webdesign · Webhosting · e-Commerce · Joomla! Content Management |
------------------------------------------------------------------

[Andy Miller]

Our Gantry Framework has quite extensive and powerful browser
detection classes that allow for simple identification and action
(notices etc). The code is all GPL and your quite welcome to use it.
A quick sample of our IE6 detection feature within the default Gantry
template is:

if ($gantry->browser->name == 'ie' && $gantry->browser->shortversion
== '6') {
if ($this->get('enabled')) {
$gantry->addScript('gantry-ie6warn.js');
$gantry->addInlineScript($this->_ie6Warn());
}
}

The class you would want to look at is libraries/gantry/core/
gantrybrowser.class.php

Could easily be renamed and adapted for use within Joomla.

Cheers,

Andy

On Aug 13, 7:32 am, Jen Kramer <focused...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Assuming there's some official browser policy (we can wait to hear
> from the PLT on that)...
>

> Matt:http://code.google.com/p/sevenup/looks great. It looks like it

[Steven Pignataro]

I think this is the most complete http://browser-update.org/

It is easy to put into your template and is always updated with deprecated browsers are introduced.

Enjoy

--Steven Pignataro

[brian teeman]

Sadly in the UK almost the entire UK government and NHs (the largest employer in europe) are stuck on IE6 and have no immediate plans to upgrade. I'm all for placing minimum requirements for "building" joomla web sites but when it comes to the browser requirement for "using" joomla this must be up to the individual site builder. I know that I'm building a site for a government department right now where analytics show that 95% of the site users are running IE6 at 800*600.

[Andrew J. Holden]

To further that, a number of my not-for-profit clients in DC and Toronto are required (government buildings) to use IE6 and in one case Novell Groupwise.  That isn't to say I'm against forcing the issue (since it's good for them to move to a new browser); but I did want to echo/affirm that there are still a fair number of entrenched institutions using IE6 here in Canada.

[Joseph LeBlanc]

When I was working for a Federal contractor in DC, they were running off a specific *build* of IE 6 and not necessarily the latest one. They had decided to skip Windows Vista and (at least at the time) planned to install Windows 7 when it became available.

In my experience, these IT departments are not going to move until you shove them. So I say shove. At worst, what they'll end up doing is giving the site managers a set of up to date software, while everyone else stays on IE 6.

-Joe

On Aug 15, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Andrew J. Holden wrote:

To further that, a number of my not-for-profit clients in DC and Toronto are required (government buildings) to use IE6 and in one case Novell Groupwise.  That isn't to say I'm against forcing the issue (since it's good for them to move to a new browser); but I did want to echo/affirm that there are still a fair number of entrenched institutions using IE6 here in Canada.

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[Chad Windnagle]

I was just about to make the same point that Joe here has said in terms of "shoving" IT. 

http://hey-it.com/

Gives us a statistic that 70% of people who still use IE6 are forced to by (what I call) overzealous IT departments. 

Whatever the reasons that these departments are still using IE6, how long should any web-based project be expected to support IE6? IE6 is coming up on 10 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6), and even Microsoft themselves have opted to drop IE6 support (http://www.ie6countdown.com/), and on their own website they recommend informing users to upgrade. 

I think we all understand that many users are more or less forced into using IE6 because IT departments dictate it, but the only way to get these departments to move forward is to as Joe says, push them to do so. IT departments who haven't updated by now simply won't until they are pushed to do so. 

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

[Chad Windnagle]

(cont):

Microsoft realizes that there is a problem with IT as well, and has put together a few documents on educating IT departments on how best to migrate their systems to another browser. (http://www.ie6countdown.com/educate-others.aspx) Perhaps in the proposed warning we could include some IE6 specific links for these 'corporate users' ?

Regards,
Chad Windnagle

[Jacqui Caren-home]

On 15/08/2011 14:15, Andrew J. Holden wrote:
> To further that, a number of my not-for-profit clients in DC and Toronto are required (government buildings) to use IE6 and in one case Novell Groupwise. That isn't to say I'm against forcing the
> issue (since it's good for them to move to a new browser); but I did want to echo/affirm that there are still a fair number of entrenched institutions using IE6 here in Canada.

One of our big multi-national clients is still stuck on MSIE6. Only managers with WIn7 laptops have something newer
but still have to use MSIE6 to use internal services the .gov.uk still enforces MSIE6 in most project bids so I
am afraid this "infection vector" is still a big player in the Uk marketplace.

Jacqui

[elin]

I got an XP desktop last year because the biology department has some equipment that will only run on XP. It actually has a W7 sticker on it but "XP inside." I said to the IT guy, you had to pay extra didn't you? and he just rolled his eyes.  This is just the way it is in ... yes, enterprise. Any enterprise that is supporting 5,000 or more individual computers and departments with in house developed specialized applications is going to be behind the 3 person office using Quicken, Office and Joomla. If we are serious about enterprise and displacing proprietary applications this is something that we need to acknowledge. I'm not saying what to do about it, but if the British government was running their enterprise applications on the Joomla platform they would not be forced to be on IE6. So let's solve that problem.

Elin

[joomlapraise]

Hey @ll,

In terms of the JUX and new stuff we'll be doing in the admin, here's my approach:

I treat out of date browsers such as IE6/7/8 as an accessibility issue, just like color blindness. We need to make sure the Joomla admin is accessible to old browsers, but that's all.

People using IE6 are similar to the color blind, they see the world different, and we just need to make sure Joomla is still USABLE and gracefully degrades, that's it.

[Matt Thomas]

"USABLE and gracefully degrades" is a great way to look at this. By thinking in terms of progressive enhancement and graceful degradation, we can continue to move forward and not forget those stuck with older technology.

Best,

Matt Thomas

Founder betweenbrain™

Lead Developer Construct Template Development Framework

Phone: 203.632.9322
Twitter: @betweenbrain

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[Rouven Weßling]

Hi.

I'm probably repeating myself but you guys do realize we already don't support IE6 in Joomla 1.6/1.7? I usually fully embrace progressive enhancement or at least graceful degradation. But we have to realize that this takes resources I don't think we have neither in testing nor in development. Also there are something you can hardly do when you still wanna support old IE versions.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have relative aggressive browser demands for Joomla core. We already require Javascript for example.

Note again that the site is mainly the designers and site builders choice what browsers to support. There's next to nothing in the core the site builder couldn't control.

Best regards
Rouven

[elin]

Everyone is just saying that there needs to be consideration given to the impact of dropping support, i.e. that some sites are potentially unusable for those large groups of users. No one is saying to support IE6 it is just an example of a group of users who we have potentially lost access to. 

I think Kyle's approach is the right one, the question is what is the minimum level where we call something that is not working a bug.

Elin

[TJ Baker]

Hello All,

It's my feeling, for what it's worth, that we should not need to assure that anything older than IE7 be officially 'supported' by Joomla…. be it the backend or the frontend.  To say Joomla 'supports' IE6 in the admin area, but the fronted is left to the template devs, does not send the proper message in my opinion.

The message should be 'Joomla supports the following versions of IE', period.  

That being said, we might take a page from another very successful offering that people are using in large numbers and drop support for IE6 altogether (I'm referring to Wordpress).  From my understanding they're even floating the idea of dropping support for IE7 (which I vote for as well).

Of course the arguments of institutionalized IE versions need to be weighed, but at what point does the support for very outdated and widely unsupported version outweigh the importance of going forward?

Sure, we can look at government agencies as examples of people who might 'need' IE6 support, but the fact of the matter is they don't 'need' it because they are undoable to change … they have a choice, they just choose to keep using that horrible operating system and very outdated (and very unsecured, I might add) crappy browser.

For what it's worth, my vote is to not continue 'officially' supporting ages old, outdated and horribly unsecured browser versions and move into the 'now'.  Government agencies have a choice, color blind and other disabled people do not.

Cheers,

TJ

[elin]

No one is proposing going back to supporting IE6 in the core. Templaters can always do it if they have clients that need it.

The question under discussion is really IE7 (The side talk about IE6 is just pointing out the truth which is you do lose meaningful groups when you drop support).

Elin

[Ofer Cohen]

Hey

This issue - browser support of IE - is something that we all talk about. I just want to put my 2 sents about this issue.

Remember - as long we support older browser as long people would stay with those old browser. It's not related to Joomla only, but also to other providers like Google, Apple & even MS (ie6countdown.com owned by MS).

Best Regards,

Ofer Cohen

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