RFC: Unified Page Model
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Paul Orwig
Mar 16, 2015, 3:15:33 PM3/16/15
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Hi all,
I want to request comments about the
willingness/practicality/timing of revisiting the Unified Page Model
idea (copy/pasted from an archived Roadmap at
http://developer.joomla.org/cms/extend/11-cms/62-roadmap-archive.html):8. Unified Page Model
The Joomla CMS will move towards having a unified approach to content pages. This would involve seamlessly integrating the menu system and the content it refers to, eliminating the middleman of having to create content and then attaching that content to the navigation. This initiative would also seek to move all content maintenance to the frontend where it can be edited in-situ ( in other words, you create the navigation and then start creating the content directly in the page).
If
there is interest to work on this, and if adding this is a possibility
for the Joomla 3.x series, then I volunteer to help form a working group
and begin work on some ideas.
Thanks,
paul
Bakual
Mar 16, 2015, 5:59:14 PM3/16/15
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Just noting that this page is an archived (outdated) roadmap. The current one is http://developer.joomla.org/cms/roadmap.html.
Paul Orwig
Mar 16, 2015, 9:29:43 PM3/16/15
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Hi Thomas, in fact it was noted in the first sentence of my original email that the UPM idea was copy/pasted from an archived Roadmap.
I hope it is allowed to ask about the possibility of working on ideas that are not on the current roadmap.
Thanks,
paul
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klas berlič
Mar 17, 2015, 5:32:38 AM3/17/15
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Hi Paul,
I would say having CCK in core is a must for CMS , just been looking at one fo the threads on how to add a field to registration form and they seem rediculus if one has ever worked with some of the advanced CCKs like Seblod. Having CCK in core also means all this decupling of some components becomes irrelevant as there is just single code to maintain - cck - and what we call now com_content, com_contact etc. are all just implementations stored in database (or in some xml file, doesn't matter). Of course we don't need it to be so complex as existing CCKs, but it needs a good architecture so it can be extended by 3rd parties. Putting its bad implementation aside, basic idea of UCM seemed to be just that (judging by what was presented at JAB12)So yes, there is interest, at least on my side.
Chris Davenport
Mar 17, 2015, 5:54:13 AM3/17/15
to Joomla! CMS Development
Hi Paul,
I think it would be really useful and informative to start by thinking about and maybe mocking up what the "ideal" user interface would look like. In my view that would be the really critical part. Once you have that you will be able to make a list of the "services" that need to be implemented in the application in order to make it work. Then it's just a matter of figuring out how to deliver those services, which is something that is very much in flux at the moment but hopefully should be a lot more settled by the time you want to start writing code.
Chris.I think it would be really useful and informative to start by thinking about and maybe mocking up what the "ideal" user interface would look like. In my view that would be the really critical part. Once you have that you will be able to make a list of the "services" that need to be implemented in the application in order to make it work. Then it's just a matter of figuring out how to deliver those services, which is something that is very much in flux at the moment but hopefully should be a lot more settled by the time you want to start writing code.
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Hannes Papenberg
Mar 17, 2015, 6:13:22 AM3/17/15
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Hi Paul,
I'm torn on this. It all depends on what you understand by the title and
short description given in that roadmap point.
It would be very good if that means cleaning up our MVC classes and
rewriting JForm to work more logically and allow something that I would
name "rapid development" for lack of a better word. It would also be
good if that is aimed at improving the user interface and thinking about
workflow.
If that is aimed at the "Grand UCM" idea, I have to say that I don't
like it. Yes, we can create something that allows you to drag&drop
yourself a component and that can do everything that you want and make
coffee at the same time. But that sounds more like SAP than a usable
CMS. I don't think that there is a way to create a system that fulfills
all requirements one could have and at the same time is usable without a
doctors degree. At the same time my experiences with the UCM code and
tables in Joomla were very bad.
But also when reading this again and simply going along the line of
frontend editing everything: It would be a massive change in Joomlas
architecture and while we have added frontend editing capabilities
lately for menus and modules, those implementations are not really
scalable. With "scalable" I mean that they are not an easy
implementation that third party developers should adopt for their
extensions. I don't see this getting improve in 3.x either and thus
would consider it possible to implement the basics in J 4.x and (if we
would follow that road) to not be able to call it a stable, scalable
implementation before 5.x.
Regards,
Hannes
Am 17.03.2015 um 10:54 schrieb Chris Davenport:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I think it would be really useful and informative to start by thinking
> about and maybe mocking up what the "ideal" user interface would look
> like. In my view that would be the really critical part. Once you
> have that you will be able to make a list of the "services" that need
> to be implemented in the application in order to make it work. Then
> it's just a matter of figuring out how to deliver those services,
> which is something that is very much in flux at the moment but
> hopefully should be a lot more settled by the time you want to start
> writing code.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
> On 16 March 2015 at 19:15, Paul Orwig
> <paul....@opensourcematters.org
> <mailto:joomla-dev-cm...@googlegroups.com>.
> <mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com>.
I'm torn on this. It all depends on what you understand by the title and
short description given in that roadmap point.
It would be very good if that means cleaning up our MVC classes and
rewriting JForm to work more logically and allow something that I would
name "rapid development" for lack of a better word. It would also be
good if that is aimed at improving the user interface and thinking about
workflow.
If that is aimed at the "Grand UCM" idea, I have to say that I don't
like it. Yes, we can create something that allows you to drag&drop
yourself a component and that can do everything that you want and make
coffee at the same time. But that sounds more like SAP than a usable
CMS. I don't think that there is a way to create a system that fulfills
all requirements one could have and at the same time is usable without a
doctors degree. At the same time my experiences with the UCM code and
tables in Joomla were very bad.
But also when reading this again and simply going along the line of
frontend editing everything: It would be a massive change in Joomlas
architecture and while we have added frontend editing capabilities
lately for menus and modules, those implementations are not really
scalable. With "scalable" I mean that they are not an easy
implementation that third party developers should adopt for their
extensions. I don't see this getting improve in 3.x either and thus
would consider it possible to implement the basics in J 4.x and (if we
would follow that road) to not be able to call it a stable, scalable
implementation before 5.x.
Regards,
Hannes
Am 17.03.2015 um 10:54 schrieb Chris Davenport:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I think it would be really useful and informative to start by thinking
> about and maybe mocking up what the "ideal" user interface would look
> like. In my view that would be the really critical part. Once you
> have that you will be able to make a list of the "services" that need
> to be implemented in the application in order to make it work. Then
> it's just a matter of figuring out how to deliver those services,
> which is something that is very much in flux at the moment but
> hopefully should be a lot more settled by the time you want to start
> writing code.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
> On 16 March 2015 at 19:15, Paul Orwig
> <paul....@opensourcematters.org
> <mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com>.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-cms.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Davenport
> Joomla Production Leadership Team
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Davenport
> Joomla Production Leadership Team
> --
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Paul Orwig
Mar 17, 2015, 9:07:41 AM3/17/15
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Thanks Klas, Chris, and Hannes for sharing your thoughts!
Maybe it will help if I share a bit more about my understanding of what Unified Page Model (UPM) means.In simplest terms, I think a Phase 1 implementation for UPM could be adding one or two new tabs (or links to modal windows) in the add/edit view of Article Manager, that allow users to add/edit Menu items and assign Modules. Other components should have a way to use that, too. And even better if there is an effective way to make those same tabs/modals available on the frontend.
I am not a developer, but it seems to me that this *could* potentially fit in Joomla 3.x, by adding some new backend views to current database tables. What I don't have a good sense of, is (1) if there is interest from others to work on this, and (2) if this is an idea that makes more sense to consider for Joomla 4+. Those are the main reasons I started this RFC thread. I think now is a good time to consider UPM, since 3.4 added better support for frontend module editing.
I am happy to follow Chris' suggestion and mock up a first version for what I think an "ideal" user interface might look like. If others want to help with that, please speak up or send me an email. Or if others have thoughts/ideas to share here in this thread, I would also appreciate that feedback.
I hope that clarifies my understanding of what UPM means.
Thanks again,
paul
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brian teeman
Mar 17, 2015, 9:47:07 AM3/17/15
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Thanks for that clarification Paul - it certainly wasnt what it meant to me
Bakual
Mar 17, 2015, 5:13:05 PM3/17/15
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Yeah sure, the roadmap is flexible and allows to add or remove items from it. Didn't want to shoot it down for sure :)
Am Dienstag, 17. März 2015 02:29:43 UTC+1 schrieb Paul Orwig:
Hi Thomas, in fact it was noted in the first sentence of my original email that the UPM idea was copy/pasted from an archived Roadmap.I hope it is allowed to ask about the possibility of working on ideas that are not on the current roadmap.Thanks,paul
On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 3:59 PM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:
Just noting that this page is an archived (outdated) roadmap. The current one is http://developer.joomla.org/cms/roadmap.html.
Am Montag, 16. März 2015 20:15:33 UTC+1 schrieb Paul Orwig:Hi all,I want to request comments about the willingness/practicality/timing of revisiting the Unified Page Model idea (copy/pasted from an archived Roadmap at http://developer.joomla.org/cms/extend/11-cms/62-roadmap-archive.html):8. Unified Page Model
The Joomla CMS will move towards having a unified approach to content pages. This would involve seamlessly integrating the menu system and the content it refers to, eliminating the middleman of having to create content and then attaching that content to the navigation. This initiative would also seek to move all content maintenance to the frontend where it can be edited in-situ ( in other words, you create the navigation and then start creating the content directly in the page).
If there is interest to work on this, and if adding this is a possibility for the Joomla 3.x series, then I volunteer to help form a working group and begin work on some ideas.
Thanks,
paul
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Mathew Lenning
Mar 18, 2015, 12:55:04 AM3/18/15
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Glad to see that the community is starting to be able to discuss new possibilities with an open mind! Jpositive
I'm very interested in UPM as well, but I don't think the current attempt at UCM should be a part of this effort.
UCM sounds good on paper, but the truth is not all content is equal, so I'd suggest putting UCM aside and focusing solely on the UPM.
From a back-end development POV the only thing standing in the way is the Legacy MVC, which if I have anything to do about it, won't be an issue for much longer. =^P
The real hard part I think will be the UI, because on one hand we need to make sure that we're not locking ourselves into something so complicated that we won't be able to touch it until J7.0
While on the other if it's too basic, we'll be making it harder for the average Joe HTML.
Let me know if a work group forms around UPM, I'd love a chance to unlock Joomla's full potential.
I'm very interested in UPM as well, but I don't think the current attempt at UCM should be a part of this effort.
UCM sounds good on paper, but the truth is not all content is equal, so I'd suggest putting UCM aside and focusing solely on the UPM.
From a back-end development POV the only thing standing in the way is the Legacy MVC, which if I have anything to do about it, won't be an issue for much longer. =^P
The real hard part I think will be the UI, because on one hand we need to make sure that we're not locking ourselves into something so complicated that we won't be able to touch it until J7.0
While on the other if it's too basic, we'll be making it harder for the average Joe HTML.
Let me know if a work group forms around UPM, I'd love a chance to unlock Joomla's full potential.
Adam Rifat
Mar 18, 2015, 6:55:05 AM3/18/15
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Would a UPM not involve merging the category manager with the menu manager at some level?
That would surely simplify the system quite a lot...
That would surely simplify the system quite a lot...
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Michael Babker
Mar 18, 2015, 8:41:13 AM3/18/15
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In what way? I think doing that makes a lot of assumptions about how folks might organize and publish their sites.
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