RE: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic

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Susan Schwirck

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Jun 17, 2014, 3:51:17 PM6/17/14
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Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck


To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:58:53 +0000

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 11:21AM -0400  

    Dear Israel Man
    Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
    title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
    history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
    yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
    because an individual "feels" like it.
    If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
    know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
    come into play in "kovod Hamas".
    Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
    observed for centuries by each group.
    Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
    put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
    forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
    they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
    and their religion.
    I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
    Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
    indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not discard
    what has been our culture and our religious practices for
    centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of our
    etiology.
    Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
    the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
    Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
    morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
    writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
    ago
    Sincerely
    isaac




    In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Shalom all,
    I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
    As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
    what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
    around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
    ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
    with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
    culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
    buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
    chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
    this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
    to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
    have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
    that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
    Respectfully
    Israel Man
     
     
     
     


    On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
    jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     



    Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
    as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
    be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
    which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
    deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
    further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
    of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
     
    And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
     
     
     
     


     
    From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
    To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
    Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
    - 2 updates in 2 topics
     
     
     

    Shalom
    Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
    choosing cremation.
    I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
    taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
    about burial as we do about taharah.
    Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
    Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
    an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
    one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
    intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
    Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
    we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
    Blessings rabbi Me'irah
     
    Sent from my iPhone
     
    On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-...@googlegroups.com_
    (mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
     
     
     
     
    _Today's topic summary_ ()
    Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    * _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
    topic_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
    * _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
    Update]
    () _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
    () _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
     
     
     
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    Israel Man <i_...@rocketmail.com> Jun 16 01:02PM -0700  

    Dear Isaac,
    You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
    Israel
     
     
     
    >Dear Israel Man
    >Does  tradition play  no role  at all ?  You
    sign off  "Rabbi"  which is a  title  of  Smicha 
    and a level  of  achievement-you  well know the long 
    history of Smicha  and by calling your self  a  Rabbi  you
    are availing  yourself  of a  tradition  that 
    you  indicate   we  should  discard  because 
    an individual "feels"  like it.
    >If  you  are an observant  Rabbi  following
    Rabbanic  Judaism  you  also know that  besides 
    tradition there  are  some  specific  halachas that 
    come  into play in "kovod Hamas".
    >Every instance  you mention below is  because its religion 
    or a    custom  observed  for  centuries 
    by  each  group.
    >Have  you  been  to Varnasi   in India where an
    hour    after the body is  put  to  flames 
    the elder son  takes a  staff   and bashes  in the
    forehead of his parent  to release  the soul.That is  their 
    Kovod Hamas  and they  would be horrified    to 
    do otherwise  because it is their  tradition and their 
    religion.
    >I  certainly  respect them   but  we  have
    ours  and  if  we claim to be Jewish  and  want to part
    of a  Jewish  community  and we  have titles that
    indicate  a  degree of  knowledge  and  expertise
      we  should not  discard what  has  been 
    our  culture and  our  religious   practices
        for  centuries . We should  not  throw 
    down  the drain  what has  been  part of  our 
    etiology.
    >Edmund  Burke one  of the major  English Statesman
    and  Philosophers of the 18th  century  ferociously
     defends tradition  - "Approximate  Paraphrasing  "
    Traditions  are the backbone  and the foundation  of 
    virtue, morality  and a  good  society" and a 
    vindication  of  a natural  society. His   
    writings and quotes  are as  relevant  today as  they
    were  200  years ago 
    >Sincerely
    >isaac
     
    >In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
    >>>> Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
    >>>> About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation--
    >>>You received this message
    because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals"
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    LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 09:01PM -0400  

    it cant be both
    either you live up to the tradition you claim is important to you
    or " leave it to the individual" as you write below



    In a message dated 6/16/2014 8:06:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Dear Isaac,
    You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we
    shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews
    who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial
    tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think
    that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra
    Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it
    is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
    Israel
     
     
     
     


    On Monday, June 16, 2014 3:40 PM, LGPPRES via jewish-funerals
    <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     


    Dear Israel Man
    Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
    title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
    history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
    yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
    because an individual "feels" like it.
    If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
    know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
    come into play in "kovod Hamas".
    Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
    observed for centuries by each group.
    Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
    put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
    forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
    they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
    and their religion.
    I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
    Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
    indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not
    discard what has been our culture and our religious practices for
    centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of
    our etiology.
    Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
    the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
    Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
    morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
    writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
    ago
    Sincerely
    isaac




    In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Shalom all,
    I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
    As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
    what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
    around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
    ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
    with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
    culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
    buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
    chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
    this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
    to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
    have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a
    thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
    Respectfully
    Israel Man
     
     
     
     


    On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
    jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     



    Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
    as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
    be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
    which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
    deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
    further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
    of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
     
    And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
     
     
     
     


     
    From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
    To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
    Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
    - 2 updates in 2 topics
     
     
     

    Shalom
    Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
    choosing cremation.
    I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
    taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
    about burial as we do about taharah.
    Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
    Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
    an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
    one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
    intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
    Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
    we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
    Blessings rabbi Me'irah
     
    Sent from my iPhone
     
    On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-...@googlegroups.com_
    (mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
     
     
     
     
    _Today's topic summary_ ()
    Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    * _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
    topic_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
    * _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
    Update]
    () _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
    () _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
     
     
     
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Dr. Joel Etra

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Jun 18, 2014, 9:02:01 AM6/18/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
I lean toward Israel's position. While I agree that we have an obligation to educate, we have a greater obligation to comfort and mo obligation, or right, to enforce any tradition on anyone. Our greatest power lies in our ability to be there for people and be supportive as best we can.

Dr Joel Etra
Www.etraspeech.com

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2014, at 3:13 PM, Susan Schwirck <celt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> way.

Kerry Swartz

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Jun 18, 2014, 9:48:32 AM6/18/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.


On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck


To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:58:53 +0000

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com_

    For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
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Libby Bottero

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Jun 18, 2014, 2:48:28 PM6/18/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Very well said Joel. I agree with Israel's position too. Our chevra
kadisha does inform people about traditional customs, and we also
respect the end-of-life choices made by the individual and/or his or her
family, whether they choose burial or cremation, taharah, shmirah,
shivah minyan, or some combination of practices. Our primary obligation
is the mitzvah to comfort and support the mourners.

We have discussed the cremation vs burial topic many times on this list,
and I think it is one of those issues that we just agree to disagree
about while trying to honor the views of others. There is a wide range
of beliefs and practices among Jews today. And as chevra members, we
serve the whole Jewish community -- including orthodox, conservative,
reform, reconstructionist, renewal, and non-affiliated.

While we are all Jewish, we don't necessarily practice kashrut or
celebrate Shabbat in exactly the same way, nor do we all make the same
end-of-life choices for a variety of reasons. The assumption that
someone chooses cremation for reasons of ignorance or finances is not
always accurate. Some people have personal well-thought out reasons that
are historical, environmental, family custom, etc; it has been a common
practice among many Reform Jewish families for well over a century. Some
people believe in the physical resurrection of the dead at the time of
Moshiach; others do not believe that at all. Whatever our own personal
beliefs and practices, I think all of us who do this CK work strive to
treat every person with respect in life and in death, in a spirit that
is both holy and humbling.

Libby

Dr. Joel Etra

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Jun 19, 2014, 8:50:53 PM6/19/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Yes, Kerry, every word you say is true. We are certainly God's agent. We are not, however, God's police. We provide loving kindness. We do what we can to spread God's peace. 


Dr Joel Etra

Sent from my iPad

Israel Man

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Jun 19, 2014, 8:51:38 PM6/19/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Shalom Kerry,
You and several others missed my point. I did not say that we should not follow our tradition. What I said is that we don't have the right to force others to do it though there are always an extremist group in every religion including ours that think that they have the divine right to impose their customs and belief on everyone else.

Israel Man


On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:46 PM, Kerry Swartz <kerry....@gmail.com> wrote:
To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.

On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck

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From: jewish-...@googlegroups. com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups. com - 3 updates in 1 topic
--

Barbara Mannlein

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Jun 19, 2014, 8:51:38 PM6/19/14
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AMEN, SUSAN....


Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:58:53 +0000
    Does tradition play no role at all? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard because an individual "feels" like it.
    If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbinic Judaism you also know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that come into play in "kovod Hamas”.
    Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom observed for centuries by each group.
    Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition and their religion.
    I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not discard what has been our culture and our religious practices for centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of our etiology.
    Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue, morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years ago.

    Sincerely
    isaac

    In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     
    Shalom all,
    I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
    As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt, buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea, chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
    Respectfully
    Israel Man
    Shalom
    Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's choosing cremation.
    I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well about burial as we do about taharah.
    Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them. Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time. Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
    Blessings rabbi Me'irah
      
    Dear Isaac,
    You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
    Israel
     
    either you live up to the tradition you claim is important to you or " leave it to the individual" as you write below



     

Aptaker

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Jun 19, 2014, 8:51:38 PM6/19/14
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To all:

This has always been an interesting discussion--it comes up quite often in many other aspects of Jewish daily life. In fact, the "what's Jewish?" question has come up for Jews through the ages.
We usually start out with: Here's the tradition, and here are some changes, and is this still a Jewish tradition?

Suppose we look at it from a different direction.  Suppose a guy named Jim becomes a mortician/mortuary director and opens a shop with a listing of all his services: embalming, no embalming, cremation, no cremation, forehead bashing, amulets, incense service, cleaning the body, or not cleaning it, tahara/other ritual washings, dressing it in suits/ties/dresses or the kid's favorite costumes or simple white garments, guarding the body at night, reading from Torah, Koran, Book of the Dead,  pine boxes, steel caskets, an assortment of stuffed toys to be buried with the kids, and so on. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Asian cultures, Indian cultures, Aboriginal cultures, everyone is welcome.  His underlying, primary, unyielding philosophy is compassionate caring for the deceased with the utmost respect and carrying out the wishes of those left behind as respect to the bereaved.  Jim is also a big fan of education.  When various ethnic groups come in for his services, he prides himself on being knowledgeable about many traditions across many cultures and encourages people to take part in their own ethnic traditions, but realizes people can choose from among various options. Jim has quite a business (in fact, it sounds quite fascinating to me the more I write about Jim).  Pretty much can handle everything and everyone--no tradition too much for him to carry out.

Is there anything about Jim's business that's Jewish?  Does it become "Jewish" when Jews use his services, but otherwise it's a Christian mortuary when Christians use it, and Buddhist when Buddhists use it, and so on?  If Jim is Jewish, does that make it a Jewish Mortuary?  If he's Jim O'brian of Irish-Catholic ancestry, can it still be Jewish?  If Jim says my business is only open to the members of the Jewish Synagogue in the town, does that make it a Jewish Mortuary?  His main philosophy is caring for the decease with compassion--so isn't that the litmus test for a Jewish preparation? (That seems to me the most "bottom line" answer I read on this forum; education is a close second, which Jim also does).  Is there something Jim would need to do to be accepted by the Jewish community as a Chevra Kadisha or is his business Jewish as it stands?  If we start with Orthodox/minhag and eliminate traditional or add non-traditional elements vs start with a business like Jim's and eliminate things that don't "look" Jewish to us, is there some inflection point where the two groups meet?  I'm wondering what makes OURS a Jewish experience?

Rich Aptaker


From: "Libby Bottero" <lbot...@comcast.net>
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Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 11:37:51 AM

Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com

Daniel Leger

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Jun 19, 2014, 10:26:24 PM6/19/14
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I was interested to read Rich Aptaker’s recent reply. I was reminded of a conversation I recently had with one of the five gentile licensed funeral directors at our city’s only Jewish family owned funeral home. He informed me that the met for whom we were about to perform tahara was to be buried in a metal casket (in one of our Jewish cemeteries) and he wanted to know if we would be completing the ritual by placing him in this casket. I told him that we would prefer that he was not buried in such a casket, but that we would place him within it and close it as we did for others. I then asked him why this funeral home offers such items. He was extremely perplexed by my question. I didn’t feel that he was simply annoyed with me for asking (he’s a really sweet man), but that he simply couldn’t understand why I would ask, since, he indicated, that the funeral home’s responsibility is to offer choice to its customers.

There are many funeral homes in our city, and any manner of services can be purchased from them. To my mind, however, a mortuary which purports to be a “Jewish” funeral home, has no business offering services and merchandise which clearly exist in the consumer culture outside the Jewish world. Simple Jewish burial plans such as the ones I am aware of in certain congregations clearly state what will take place. One agrees to these limitations and the traditional simplicity inherent in them. I find it very problematic when a funeral home refers to itself as “Jewish”, yet adopts the same consumer driven options available at “non-Jewish” establishments. The paradox of choice rears its confusing head in so many areas of life; it seems comforting to me to have some opportunity where those choices cease to treat us as consumers of services with varieties of choice and limit us to simplicity, tradition, and its ensuing economies.

Dan Leger

Laurie Kurs

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Jun 20, 2014, 7:18:09 AM6/20/14
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Rich,
I think youir analogy might be accurate IF the funeral home does not promote itserlf as, for instasnce, a Jewish funeral home.  I believe the minute the logo contains a Jewish star or HGebre owrds, or the Word Jewish....people will have the desired reaction - this is a Jewish funeral home.   If the ownerr did not want to be misleading, if the nature of the funeral hiome was non desscript, than either all religious symbols would be on the logo - or none.  What would be the underlying rationale for putting the words "Jewish funeral home", or jewish symbols on their flyers, logos, advertisement, building, or marques, except to attract JEWISH business.
 
Funeral homes that do not cater to Jewish funerals BUT do accomodate jewish funerals...are usually clearly advertised as such. 
 
It seems self evident to me that if a Jewish person seeks out a funeral home, AND that funeral home does promote itself as a Jewish funeral home...that family has made a conscious decision to utilize a Jewish funeral home. 
 
Bait and switch is certainly not appropriate, and certainly not expected.
 
Just because the family made not be aware of what a Jewish funeral usually entails...selling them products or ideas that are not necessary - with the assertion that it is -  is not only unconscionable..but against the law.    But while the funeral director of a "Jewish Funeral" Home has the right and the freedom to do what he wants...it seems that we  have now evolved to having - Jewish denominational funeral homes.  The "orthodox" version.....shomrim, tahara, plain pine box,tachrichim, swift funeral, 7 days of shiva.
Conservative Funeral Home, well, maybe there are shomrim, tahara, perhaps a fancier pine box - shiny and bit decorative, tachrichim, MAYBE cremation, maybe a ring or treasured blanket, funeral in a few days, and maybe 7, but could be 3 days of "shiva", the Reform Funeral Home - whatever the family feels like - most unlikely - shomerim, tahara, plain box, likely regular clothing,  cremation without issue, anything into the aron, burial later more likely than sooner, mausaleums, crypts, niches, one day 'shiva" possibly more. 
 
So, if a funeral home is going to be a buffet of a little of this and a little of that...fine..if that is how it is advertised.  But, if it advertises itself as a chinese buffet...one does not expect french cuisine. 
 
So, like the man on stranded on an island, who built two buildings in his spare time.....  When rescued he was asked what are these 2 buildings?  He replied, this is the shul I go to and that is the one I would never go to.
 
Laurie
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 at 5:05 PM
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