THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Brother Larry
What a day! I just had an experience that left me in a state of
joyful awe. As many of you who talk with me know, I have been
preaching something Brian McLaren called “faithing your life”, rather
than struggling
to live your faith. This means, rather than trying to find the time
and discipline to institute a regimen of religious rituals in your
already busy life, you could seek the spiritual meaning in the tasks,
moments and circumstances you find yourself in every day. Is that
walk to work a metaphor for a spiritual journey in your life? Is it
an actual one? And how are all experiences readymade parables? How do
your thoughts about these experiences help shape your spirit?
Considering there is no filler in life, and every moment is an
essential part of the whole, can we take the time to gleen the larger,
deeper, truth that our Father’s grace bestows on us every single
moment of every single day of our lives? Can we spiritually afford
not to?
These were the thoughts going through my head as I waited at the bus
stop to run an errand at lunch, worrying about being tardy coming
back. As I was standing there a young man in his twenties pulled up
in a car, smiled kindly, and said, “Do you need a ride?”
I remember looking at him, trying to decern if he was someone from
work, a student neighbor, or perhaps a grown child of one of my
friends that I wasn’t recognizing. I said, “Yes, thanks!”
As I got in the passenger side he offered a hand and a smile and
introduced himself as David, said he was glad to meet me, and asked
“Where to Larry?” I said Church street, and he smiled again and asked
“Church huh?”
I mumbled something about running errands and such, and asked him,
“So, David. What inspired you to such an overt act of kindness? Why
did you offer a stranger, some middle-aged man a ride, out of the
blue?”
What he said next nearly floored me: “Do you believe someone can
change there mind, and then change there life by starting all over
brand new? Become good, kind, and do the right things
unconditionally?”
“In fact I do!” I said, trying to collect enough of myself to
communicate in a meaningful way.
He said, “Well, my life changed yesterday!”
“So, you had an epiphany?”
“Yes, an epiphany!”, he said almost laughing.
As we drove across campus we talked about renewal, goodness, joy, and
being perceptive enough to see the meaning of one’s life in context to
the ‘big picture’, in a rather light-hearted and happy tone. In no
time we were at my destination and stopped, as I had directed.
As I turned to exit his car, I thanked him, and he looked me in the
eye and said, “Thank you for letting me give you just what you needed.
It meant a lot to me!”
After a smile and a handshake, off he went.
Ladies and gentleman, this moment was ground zero for an explosion of
joyful awe. It enveloped me and lifted my heart. If David wasn’t an
angel, he certainly was heaven sent!
Adam Colbert
On Aug 17, 3:20 pm, Brother Larry
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Recently I have come to the conclusion that faith comes from God and from God alone. In other words God gives people the gift of faith in order that they perform various works and so that people know God in various ways. Overall, for this reason the development of our relationships to God occurs not by study but instead by God revealing himself to us in our lives.
I agree that the scripture can be used to clarify and sharpen our understanding of the relationship that we already have, but the message is clear that Jesus Christ came into this world to reveal himself to man, that he died under wicked men to reveal his innermost feelings toward sinful man, and that Jesus Christ rose from the dead to reveal who he really was and is as well as his authority other heaven and earth. I believe that as a result of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that Christ specifically continues to show himself to the world just like he did when Saint Paul was on the road to Damascus. Overall, if what I am saying is not true then the scripture would just be a book taught by men, and sadly more and more people are substituting a real relationship with Jesus Christ with biblical studies.
My point is that the scripture should be the greatest authority for giving us structure and understanding for our experiences, but the scripture perhaps should not be the sum of our experiences with God. Jesus Christ is according to the book of John in the first chapter ‘the word of God made flesh’; moreover, this means that God the Father has shown himself through the person of Jesus Christ and has made himself known. Although the scripture is the written account of the Word of God and correct testimony concerning the Word, I believe we should always take Jesus Christ to be what the scripture testifies about.
In other words many churches may preach that the bible is the word of God, and then the same churches teach the people what the bible means. In many of these same churches the focus of the work of the church is to teach denominational doctrines, and hardly ever is it the case that God shows himself to the people and teaches them because the person in charge of worship has taken his place. When however God shows himself to you personally and teaches the people you will not have the slightest hesitation that it is God even if God is speaking through an evangelist, pastor, or priest. My point is that we should not flee from God’s constant communication of his word in our lives however it occurs, but we should always be ready to test the spirit to see if it comes from God and we should be ready to interpret what is said in light of the scripture.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
------- Original Message -------
From : Adam Colbert[mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Sent : 8/17/2009 8:20:55 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Brother Larry
Thanks for your comments and insights. And thanks for welcoming me
into your community.
Matthew,
Your message is wonderfully true. Thank you for your revelation. And
I thank Our Father for you, and your dedication to the understanding
of his love for us.
Peter,
You are talking about the concept of ‘dharma’, of course. I remember
when this term first came to my attention, while I was living in
community with some of The Brothers of The Poor Saint Francis.
Catholic monastic life also reflected this truth of the simple and
small way, in my mind. However, I am no longer a member of the
Catholic (with a capital 'C') church. Have you read “Cutting Through
Spiritual Materialism” by Chogyam Trumpa? Although decidedly Buddhist
in nature, it is an interesting read. If you are able to tolerate the
nomenclature, and translate the ‘nuggets of truth’ at the heart of his
observations, you may find cause for unique reflection and prayer.
So, what I am asking of all of my brothers and sisters is this: Let’s
take our orthodoxy, and turn it into ‘orthopraxy’. Or, our ‘right
thinking’ into ‘right practice’, by transcending ritualization and
denominational doctrinalization. Pay for the person’s lunch, or
coffee, that is behind you in the cafeteria line today. Carry some
cash with you, just to give away, and do it. Help anyone who looks
like they need it. Smile at and love everyone you see. Turn water
into wine, heal the blind and lame. Live for ever.
I’m asking you to, in Jesus’ name.
Oh, and don’t worry about me: I am an old ex-marine in a Midwest
college town, and a pretty good assessor of faces.
And besides, “For me, to live is Christ, to die is gain.” The Apostle
Paul, Philippians 1:21
> > *Sent :* 8/17/2009 8:20:55 PM
> > *To :* jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
> > *Cc :*
> > *Subject :* RE: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
>
> - Show quoted text -
ON EARTH Ministries
Brother Larry Roy Woodsmall
ON EARTH MINISTRIES
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
you try to stay away from television, with its pitchmen, both secular
and religious. These ‘functional sociopaths’ display some of the same
visible behavioral landmarks as their more florid and brutal cousins,
the thief and the murderer, such as unnaturally overdone eye contact
with a diminished blink rate, aggressive body language/voice tone, and
a forced friendliness all which serve as engagement tools to control
circumstance and outcome of the situational politic. I’d like to
think that there many varying degrees of humanity’s moral quality
between Jesus (God incarnate) and Ted (one of many incarnations of
d’evil). I think it is realistic to say that the vast majority of us
are clumped in the middle.
The Mary and Jesus statement is kind of like the chicken and the egg
thing. Very Catholic though…
I believe that faith is a gift bestowed on us by The Father. So is
choice. Although I do think there is a certain ‘cognitive imperative’
aspect to being a participant in the physical reality of ‘the world’.
We make choices, but ultimately there is only one that we can make:
the one that we do make, and manifest in deed, which God has always
known we would. All others exist as constructs in the mental forum
where fantasy, plans, thoughts, and yes, prayers are composed. God
and His will exist. Plain and simple. There is no REAL debate here
even for atheists who, when pressed, must admit that their argument is
more about the consensus of definition: whether He is man-made mental
construct, and His will is a perceived illusion, or He is as the
particular believer on hand chooses to presents his faith. Is what I
am saying a word-knot or mixed metaphor? Perhaps in appearance. Paul
uses many analogies that inspire a little head scratching, even among
the faithful.
His use of the birth metaphor is one obvious example that comes to
mind. REMEMBER, we are engaged in this discussion to illuminate and
better understand The Father and His will, not to define Him and His
will by demarcating some perceived boundary line we prefer to keep Him
in for our convenience. We are the flock, and he is the Good Shepard,
not the other way around. It is the spirit of OUR faith which
establishes the relationship we have with God. Our life here is the
‘teachable moment’ to prepare us for eternity.
Ted Bundy, rape? Yikes Peter, you paint with a very broad brush and
contrasting pallet. Do you have issues about submitting to God’s
will? Pray about this. And when you are done expressing what The
Father already knows you are thinking; spend an equal amount of time
quietly listening. Because, at the root of the Sabbath is God’s love
for us, and our love for Him. All prayers are answered.., one way or
another.
The ‘nugget’ of truth I mention regarding the Trumpa book lies in his
warning against “Spiritual Materialism” as defined not only by
acquisition and use of relics and written texts, but also the sort of
fetishism that can be succumbed to in regards to rituals, systems of
thought, and conceptualization. Sort of, “Don’t let the medium become
the message, or let the message become a medium within itself.” Live
by the spirit. More slippery ground, I suppose.
As far as your statement regarding the military, I also agree.
Victory for our Father’s Kingdom is surrender. And surrender was
Jesus’ victory. I wasn’t any better at being a Marine than I was
being a Franciscan.
By the way, how are you doing with turning water into wine, walking on
water, feeding the multitudes, healing the sick, blind and lame? Did
you love everyone you saw today? While we are in this burning
building of a world, discussing its structure, and the nature of fire
and whether or not it was arson, it doesn’t hurt to throw a few
buckets of water. Maybe save a few folks…
Every morning, dedicate your day to Jesus and our Father.
I love you,
Brother Larry
mmo...@essex1.com
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Sent : 8/19/2009 3:22:23 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
I see you didnt buy the 'cognitive imparitve' rap...
chuckle
Charities are…, convenient, aren’t they?
There are miracles and signs around us every day. This is the essence
of the personal parable I wrote about earlier. “Look around you,
can’t you see the signs?!” What do you think Jesus meant when he said
this, and also told the disciples he was giving them the power to heal
the sick and cast out demons? Perhaps, since we didn’t have the
benefit of attending Jesus’ intensive three-year apostle training
program in person, we have to start out small and simple: Look for
the meaning in everything. Heal someone who is has been rendered lame
and is going nowhere in life. Help someone who can see no future gain
the vision to see the miracles and signs around them. Feed a couple
of people at a time. Give cash to a homeless person. Forget about
anything you think is owed to you, by anyone. Help free anyone you
may see trapped in the bondage of sin. Forgive those who hurt you,
and pray for them. Don’t worry, the end is coming. I wouldn’t think
it a good idea to be caught standing around, wagging your finger at
the Anti-Christ, when Jesus gets back. He’ll take care of the bad guy.
Jubilee time right now, big guy.
Did Jesus want to be crucified? If that’s what it took. If that was
his Father’s will, yes.
God’s will? Yeah, me too. Whether it is a bout I am having with my
pride, or my own fear and self loathing. Or in my earnest need to
‘figure it out’, or my frustrated hour of ‘who knows!?’, I find the
skin of the drum that the Father beats out the rhythm of His will in
my life on drawn taunt. It’s sound like a rifle’s report. And,
although it is immediate, and sometimes startling, it isn’t the drum
beat of a task master on a galleon; it’s the drumbeat of a song, the
lyric is by many writers, prophets and preachers. I’m being reminded
that I am an invited guest at a wedding party…, and I’ve been asked to
dance.
Atheists? Well, if they aren’t willing to admit that God exist, at the
very least, as a concept, they are being the d’evil’s advocate, and
trying to get you to trip up, and/or make you angry enough to commit
the sin of psychological violence. I also, like to ask what’s up with
that internal narrative they carry on in their conscious mind. “Who
are you talking to?”
The world is a dark place. And the darkness is the place where many
evil things hide. Continue to be that lamp that lights the darkness.
And let that light illuminate the good things that you do for the
Father, and the bridegroom will find you; not to look over your
shoulder for the bad guy.
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
If Marry would have been inclined to say no to the birth of Christ or to be pro choice, then the Lord would not have chosen her. If however the Lord would have still chosen her under such circumstances, then he would have given Marry the faith to believe in a pro life message. Either way God is in control, and note that I am not in anyway indicating that Marry was like this at all in regards to a pro choice doctrine. You however appear to indicate that marry had a choice about the birth of Jesus, and I however am indicating that being pro choice is just not an option.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/20/2009 10:23:59 AM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Thank you,
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Many of you might be a little older than me, and thus you may be unaware of how our government has handed the public education of youth in my time in high school and elementary school as well as now. My mother told me that in her day ministers would be rotated on a daily bases to offer the prayer for blessing the food in her elementary school, and I can assure you that this was very far from anything that would have happened in my time in school. When I went to elementary school and high school the only time that the word God would ever be used was in the pledge of allegiance that people had to say regardless of their beliefs in it or not.
One time I can remember in music class that my friend wanted to sing a song but he could not remember all the words, so the music instructor tried to help identify the song and once it was discovered in a unspoken way that it was a song that people would sing in church thus the child was treated by the instructor and others as if he had committed a horrible crime such as exposing himself in front of everyone and in fact he was very embarrassed once realizing that the song that he wanted to sing was about Jesus Christ. Anyone who believed in Christ in anyway who was an instructor would have hid this fact to the extent that no one would ever know and this was the cause except for only two instructors that I can remember in High School that might for example try to play a Christmas song at Christmas time causing an uproar. The way that atheist philosophy was taught in classes as being what we supposedly found to be the truth was an abomination to say the least; moreover, if anyone raised an objection like that homosexuality is wrong a health instructor would for example say something like, "well at one time people believed…, but now we know that homosexuality is natural and proven to be just a difference of preference in some people."
Somehow I believe that an entire generation of people like me have been vigorously taught for 13 years of public education that "at one time people believed" this being said of the Christian world view, "but now we know" this being said of the atheist world view. As a result, Christians now get portrayed as religious extremists whom pray on ignorant people whom are not very educated. Not only that but at the same time the true and publicly accepted Christians are seen as being people that mainly teach as their central focus the doctrine to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As you all may remember, Moses saw the sinful condition of the Israelites without the leadership of God and he brought the curse of the law saying, "if you cannot live by the law, then die by the law" what followed is that the Levites then got the command to kill their brothers and thus had been given the authority of priesthood.
My point is that the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart mind and soul, and if salvation was about a personal choice, then hardly anyone in this time would be given enough information to make a informed decision. If Christians are given the same resources that public schools are given with the same rigger for qualifications and standards for purposes of teaching the public, then Christian educational institutions would be able to make even more compelling cases for creationism and the historical existence of Jesus Christ as well as a through Christian world view, but I would have to wonder if people would believe anymore in Jesus Christ as a whole than they already do not believe in him. Yes indeed when children have been trained for thirteen years to believe in God hating doctrines that public education indoctrinates them with those children can only be saved if God shows himself to them and causes them to believe, and the same would be true if all schools only taught about Christ with the same rigger.
I think that my points can be summarized as, "a sheep is a sheep, and a goat is a goat". Although a difference may exist in who Shepherds the flock, God and only God has control over if a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat. No potter asks his pottery, "do you want to be a cup or a dish", and so God makes or remakes people based upon his desires for how he will use them in his kingdom. Overall, this is like a farmer whom has farm animals for animal labor as well as farm animals for slaughter; moreover, the farmer makes some animals his servants while he has a different plan for those whom his intends to slaughter.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I hope that you are ready for my explanation because it is a little extreme and perhaps to extreme.
I realize that my use of the phrase pro choice was a little bit like a slide of hand, but in a way we need to recognize that not only ‘church people’ are in favor of choices but also people who would not be caught dead in a church. If we are to tell people that they have a choice, and then try to legislate people from making a choice, then how could we say that free will is the greatest gift of God. According to the scripture Mary was told that she would be with child and it was so, but today so many people preach free will that to them the rewritten version of the story of Christ birth showing maximum usage of the free will concept would read something like the following (This is a message that I do not support in any way),
"Mary made a choice to listen to the voice of the person whom she made a choice to recognize as Gabriel the angel one day. God loves you like he loves everyone else he said. Mary thus was troubled that she may soon feel the necessity to reject a decree from God that would be to hard for her to do. The angel then said don’t worry God is really pleased with you. If you so make the choice that we expect out of you then you can have a child, and if you make the choice then you can name him Jesus upon your own free will if and only if you make the choice not to end the pregnancy early. If you make all the right choices, then he will be a good guy called the son of God if he so decides that upon his own free will. God will give him all kinds of stuff unless his choices mess things up and cause him to loose it all including his birth right. Then she said how will this be I am a virgin and soon may make the choice to give my virginity to my soon to be husband. The angel then explained "thus if you so decide based upon your own free will the Holy Ghost if he also chooses will overshadow you and give you a child, but if you decide to no longer be a virgin, then we might not know who the father is." Free will is the greatest gift of God, and by the way if you or anyone chooses to reject him then nothing that God says will come to pass showing who is really in charge of their own free will." *** Note I do not endorse the above message at all and only use it for demonstration purposes, and instead I endorse the message of the scripture that is listed below regarding the birth of Christ.
The gospel according to Luke chapter one verses twenty-six through thirty-eight, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her." (NIV) The point is that God did not ask Mary if she wanted to be with child or not, but instead Gabriel told her that she would be with child and this appears to be presented to Mary as a gift.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
If Marry would have been inclined to say no to the birth of Christ or to be pro choice, then the Lord would not have chosen her. If however the Lord would have still chosen her under such circumstances, then he would have given Marry the faith to believe in a pro life message. Either way God is in control, and note that I am not in anyway indicating that Marry was like this at all in regards to a pro choice doctrine. You however appear to indicate that marry had a choice about the birth of Jesus, and I however am indicating that being pro choice is just not an option.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/20/2009 10:23:59 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matt:And if Mary said, "No, I don't want a child." The book would be different. A book with free will isn't like a book you get at the library.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Thank you,
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I can remember for example that Bishop Gentry said that when Christ was crucified on the place called the skill that he stepped on the serpent’s head with the cross thus killing the serpent. I do believe that what Christ has done and will do will and is ending the power of evil. The message of the Cross is what kills evil.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
> No miracles today. Although I did give to a charity.
>
> Do I have issues with God's will? Doesn't everyone? Did Jesus want to be
> crucified?
>
> With regard to atheists, agnostics and such. I've said it before and I'll
> say it again. I've never met an honest one. I'm sure there may be one out
> there, I just haven't met him/her. They all know God exist, and they deny
> it. When I hold them down and, metaphorically of course, take a stick to
> their heads - they have always given up the truth sooner or later. The
> antichrist is out there now. As far as I'm concerned, the idea that he'll
> come in the future - even if it will reach its physical peak in the future
> - is put in place to help hide its existence now. The sooner we wake up to
> that fact, the better off we will all be.
>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM, ON EARTH Ministries
mmo...@essex1.com
mmo...@essex1.com
ON EARTH Ministries
I appreciate your candor, and am humbled by your respectfulness. So,
in that spirit, try to understand that I express my concerns out of
love.
I believe it is still best to be slow to speak, and quick to listen.
So, I certainly see no fault there. However, I have to admit that,
because of some of your violent imagery, Old Testament based
rationalizations, pride and willfulness, there is a part of me that is
concerned that I will be watching news, see one of your neighbors, and
they will be saying, “He was a quiet man…., we had no idea.”
Although I’ve always thought it a good sign if people think me crazy
because of my devotion to a poor, homeless man who lived two thousand
years ago in the Middle East, and that I claim him to be God on Earth;
I don’t believe that accusations of mental illness are a litmus test
for divine inspiration.
As a Christian, a member of Jesus’ family, and a true child of our
Father; demons and all manifestations of d’evil should be scared of
you. You have been empowered to dismiss them with a prayer and the
wave of a hand. And I believe it is your born-again birthright to be
a part of the establishment of the Kingdom, here on Earth. Which will
mark the defeat of the prince of darkness.
However, I think that it is important to remember that its not all
about you. And any spiritual intervention in your life that has
suggested anything but humility, selfless service, peace and
unconditional love for everyone, should be stepped back from,
discussed, and prayed about, with someone who you feel is good and
loving, and reflects this truth which is Christ.
Perhaps you are, like your namesake, a rock. My assertion, at this
point, might be that you should see yourself as the foundational
variety, rather than a weapon. Beat your sword into a plowshare.
This is more in line with our Lord Jesus’ new covenant. And since I
would find it hard to believe that you are without sin, my inclination
is to advise you not to hurl yourself.
We win by loosing, gain by giving, and only obtain total victory by
unconditional surrender.
Give up circumstantial ethics. The end never justifies the means. Be
a good tree and produce good fruits. What is important is what is in
your heart, your mind is not your soul. Your thinking and actions
will follow suit.
Take the leap of faith and all in love again. And while you are in
deep, roll in it. Get the scent of jesus on you, so that all who are
in your presents know your goodness even in your silence.
Although I am a newcomer to this community, and am not fully aware of
all of the entire circumstance and dynamic of your relationship with
Brother Matthew, I would like to make an observation about your
interaction with him:
It is true that, in the rabbinical tradition our Lord Jesus’ earthly
ministry was manifested in, the student who “went to the front of the
class” was the one who asked the most insightful questions, not the
one who tried to formulate the most accurate answer, or agreed without
a thought. However, sometimes your tone with him resembles that of
the one who asks Jesus the three questions in the wilderness. Short,
terse, and conditional. Pray about this. Ask for love and humility
in your life. Be a servant of the truth, not a slave of contention.
Express the love you obviously have for Matthew.
Or, since your earthly father was/is a Marine, you might find a little
humor in this:
If “if”s and “but”s were beer and nuts, we’d all be having a little
party right now.
Chuckle
I love you guys!
Brother Larry
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Larry, I just want to take this opportunity to inform you and everyone else about how far people’s aggression can escalate on this news group. One of the four original owners of this news group is perhaps the most respectable and God loving people that I know, and I admire both his passion for his ministry and his love for God but him and I had a theological disagreement that raised a lot of emotions in a lot of people. As a result of this disagreement the situation escalated to the extent that some people thought that he would seek personal vengeance against me, and some signs existed that this vengeance would take a very horrifying form that would be more incredible than things that are normally written about in the news paper. Overall, since this man was my friend I went against the advise of some people, and I went to his apartment in person at night and went in by myself when he invited me in. Through the process of talking with him in person I found that he was troubled by a few other serious things in his life and had gotten almost overwhelmed with things, and the point of the story is that although I did not know for certain that I would ever leave that man’s apartment once entering what I did to attempt reconciliation was what needed to be done. The result was that the two of us agreed to disagree, he made attempts to get some help with things that I could not help him with, and he continues to be my friend, but the sad news is that he has chosen to no longer be part of the news group even though I was against his resignation as a news group owner.
Remember that Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that all who would believe in him be one just as he and the Father are one, furthermore I believe that this teaching is among one of the most important for our time.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
ON EARTH Ministries
ones i have had contact with so far in this group) are wonderfully
fascinating and engaging. my public ministry has benefited in ways
that have yet to be revealed to me, just in the short time i have
partaken. i note that Matthew is in Illinois and thought i would
mention that i am across the Mississippi in Iowa. it may be
interesting to get together. i am captivated by the idea of cross
walking. one of my MOs is to dress like a medieval friar, talk to
people and apologize and ask forgiveness for the atrocities of my
fellow Christians in history, and offer to wash feet in the pedestrian
mall of my college town. (Yes, i know Peter, i have a lot of nerve
worrying about YOUR mental health. Chuckle)
Peace, Love, and Understanding,
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I live in Rock Falls, Illinois in Northern Illinois near the Iowa border. I have done cross walking before, and this was something that I performed prior to starting Jesus on the Web and prior to most all of my ministry and writings. The best way in my opinion to do cross walking is to get a bag full of dollar bibles from Dollar General or another such dollar store and give them away as you walk through town.
When cross walking, you might be best to inform the city that you are in that you will be conducting a public display so that you do not get arrested for unlawful assembly. Also when doing any display on a public university or college, you will need to either use an aria known as a free speech/ commons aria or you will have to have the backing of a Registered Student Organization in order to prevent getting arrested. Overall, I have never had a problem with law enforcement officials, but I know that if I was very aggressive and acted like John the Baptist, then I can assure you that I very well may have a problem with people like law enforcement officials trying to stop a public display that I would be doing.
I would be interested in getting together.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
Will you deny us, Peter?
Or might you bail us out?
seriously though, it may be interesting to travel around to Churches.
i think a lot of parishioners could stand to be distracted from
earthly politics....
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
If free will is really free then why did Jesus have to be killed for it. After all who would give their life for something free anyway? My point is that Jesus said, "Father if your willing take this cup away from me." Obviously he was not willing to do so, and so free will is not really free.
Christ was predestined to be tortured and crucified even though he was and is God.
My mother however suggests the story of Christ crucifixion is that he was born from the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost on Mary and this never departed from him until death, and then when he said, "Father if you are willing take this cup away from me" what he was talking about was the communion with God the Father. In this understanding of scripture this was necessary because otherwise Jesus would not have been able to be wounded by the torture of the Roman soldiers. Then according to this same interpretation Jesus gave up the Ghost when he said Father into your hands I commend my spirit. The problem appears however to be that Jesus said, "Father why have you forsaken me", and he would not have said this if his free will was really free because it would have been his choice to not be killed on the cross.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
I hope that you are ready for my explanation because it is a little extreme and perhaps to extreme.
I realize that my use of the phrase pro choice was a little bit like a slide of hand, but in a way we need to recognize that not only ‘church people’ are in favor of choices but also people who would not be caught dead in a church. If we are to tell people that they have a choice, and then try to legislate people from making a choice, then how could we say that free will is the greatest gift of God. According to the scripture Mary was told that she would be with child and it was so, but today so many people preach free will that to them the rewritten version of the story of Christ birth showing maximum usage of the free will concept would read something like the following (This is a message that I do not support in any way),
"Mary made a choice to listen to the voice of the person whom she made a choice to recognize as Gabriel the angel one day. God loves you like he loves everyone else he said. Mary thus was troubled that she may soon feel the necessity to reject a decree from God that would be to hard for her to do. The angel then said don’t worry God is really pleased with you. If you so make the choice that we expect out of you then you can have a child, and if you make the choice then you can name him Jesus upon your own free will if and only if you make the choice not to end the pregnancy early. If you make all the right choices, then he will be a good guy called the son of God if he so decides that upon his own free will. God will give him all kinds of stuff unless his choices mess things up and cause him to loose it all including his birth right. Then she said how will this be I am a virgin and soon may make the choice to give my virginity to my soon to be husband. The angel then explained "thus if you so decide based upon your own free will the Holy Ghost if he also chooses will overshadow you and give you a child, but if you decide to no longer be a virgin, then we might not know who the father is." Free will is the greatest gift of God, and by the way if you or anyone chooses to reject him then nothing that God says will come to pass showing who is really in charge of their own free will." *** Note I do not endorse the above message at all and only use it for demonstration purposes, and instead I endorse the message of the scripture that is listed below regarding the birth of Christ.
The gospel according to Luke chapter one verses twenty-six through thirty-eight, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her." (NIV) The point is that God did not ask Mary if she wanted to be with child or not, but instead Gabriel told her that she would be with child and this appears to be presented to Mary as a gift.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/21/2009 9:18:41 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Slow Down Matt:I believe you just committed, perhaps unknowingly, what they call a logical fallousy. I'm not sure which one. A strawman? You did so by throwing up a false argument to avoid answering the question. Mary isn't being prochoice, if the fetus isn't in her womb yet. She agrees to God's will. If she doesn't and still has to go through with the child, then - by our human definition - this would be rape.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
If Marry would have been inclined to say no to the birth of Christ or to be pro choice, then the Lord would not have chosen her. If however the Lord would have still chosen her under such circumstances, then he would have given Marry the faith to believe in a pro life message. Either way God is in control, and note that I am not in anyway indicating that Marry was like this at all in regards to a pro choice doctrine. You however appear to indicate that marry had a choice about the birth of Jesus, and I however am indicating that being pro choice is just not an option.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/20/2009 10:23:59 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matt:And if Mary said, "No, I don't want a child." The book would be different. A book with free will isn't like a book you get at the library.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Thank you,
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Peter VanGee<peter...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Brother Larry:
>> >
>> > What you are talking about here is very close to the Buddhist idea of
>> > mindfulness. Basically, your being mindful of the sacred in the
>> > everyday
>> > events of the day. Like washing the dishes to wash the dishes. You
>> > have to
>> > be wholly present to every act - maintaining your epiphany is easier
>> > said
>> > than done. I do agree with Mathew in that before you get into a car
>> > with a
>> > guy you don't know - its good idea to know he isn't serial killer. I
>> > think
>> > you should count yer blessings yer still walking around.
>> >
>> > Know the Lord,
>> >
>> > Pete
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:42 AM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >> Mathew Enoch Mount
>> >>
>> >> mmo...@essex1.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------- Original Message -------
>> >> From : Adam Colbert[ mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I will give you the ‘secret’ to my evangelical power like that of Samson and his power. The fact is that I often use what I would like to refer to as the Middle Eastern Evangelical Style. What that means is that when you carry the cross and speak to people that you ask them of their faith first, and this could start with the question, "what do you think about Jesus Christ." Listen to those whom you come in contact with, and then they will listen to you and you will be able to address your faith in light of their faith. This will also help you identify the differences in Christian faith and the specific needs for reconciliation. Remember that the Lamb of God not only has seven horns but also seven eyes.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Will you deny us, Peter?
Or might you bail us out?
seriously though, it may be interesting to travel around to Churches.
i think a lot of parishioners could stand to be distracted from
earthly politics....
> Hi:
>
> The two of you can go out two by two, dress like He told the apostles. Eat
> and sleep where they welcome you. And when the local authorities give you a
> problem, be sure they see you brush the sand off yer feet.
>
>
> Pete
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 4:34 AM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I live in Rock Falls, Illinois in Northern Illinois near the Iowa border.
>> I have done cross walking before, and this was something that I performed
>> prior to starting Jesus on the Web and prior to most all of my ministry and
>> writings. The best way in my opinion to do cross walking is to get a bag
>> full of dollar bibles from Dollar General or another such dollar store and
>> give them away as you walk through town.
>>
>> When cross walking, you might be best to inform the city that you are in
>> that you will be conducting a public display so that you do not get arrested
>> for unlawful assembly. Also when doing any display on a public university or
>> college, you will need to either use an aria known as a free speech/ commons
>> aria or you will have to have the backing of a Registered Student
>> Organization in order to prevent getting arrested. Overall, I have never had
>> a problem with law enforcement officials, but I know that if I was very
>> aggressive and acted like John the Baptist, then I can assure you that I
>> very well may have a problem with people like law enforcement officials
>> trying to stop a public display that I would be doing.
>>
>> I would be interested in getting together.
>>
>>
>> Mathew Enoch Mount
>> mmo...@essex1.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> From : ON EARTH
>> Ministries[ mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
>> To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
>> Cc :
>> Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your notes of reassessment. i think you two (the only
>> ones i have had contact with so far in this group) are wonderfully
>> fascinating and engaging. my public ministry has benefited in ways
>> that have yet to be revealed to me, just in the short time i have
>> partaken. i note that Matthew is in Illinois and thought i would
>> mention that i am across the Mississippi in Iowa. it may be
>> interesting to get together. i am captivated by the idea of cross
>> walking. one of my MOs is to dress like a medieval friar, talk to
>> people and apologize and ask forgiveness for the atrocities of my
>> fellow Christians in history, and offer to wash feet in the pedestrian
>> mall of my college town. (Yes, i know Peter, i have a lot of nerve
>> worrying about YOUR mental health. Chuckle)
>>
>> Peace, Love, and Understanding,
>>
>
>
> >
>
Peter VanGee
To further support my argument, God told (shall I say commanded) Jonah to go to Ninevah. He didn't go, so he had to live with the consequences of that action. A rather unpleasant experience. There are consequences to the choices we make. I never said there weren't. So God asked him to go again and he went. Jesus said he had to face the rulers of this world. He chose to go. The difference is in Nineveh - they repented. In Jerusalem - they did not. They killed an innocent man. There are consequences for the actions we take. What did God tell Abraham, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Many of the fans of Free Will believe that only if they make their message more appealing then they will gain the unsaved into the kingdom of heaven by making the choice easier. Many of these same people could think something like, "if only I preached the gospel better or made myself more understandable then the unsaved would have been saved." The fact is the problem with some of these fans of free will is that if our free will was truly free than some of the blood that Jesus shed on the cross would have been wasted by him shedding blood for the entire world when not everyone would believe.
The fact is that Jonah as soon as he heard the Word of the Lord fled because he both chose to do so and was predestine to do so. As a result of this God used the message of Jonah being swallowed into the belly of the whale as a prophesy of Jesus Christ whom just as Jonah was swallowed into the belly of the whale so to Jesus Christ was crucified and went into the center of the earth of three days. Just as Jonah fled the word of the Lord, so to Christ prayed that his father’s cup be taken away from him. Overall, if you go back into the archives of Jesus on the web, then you will find that I am for both predestination and free will because the scripture is clearly for both.
In other words we make a choice, but that choice has already been determined before we make it.
The following is an article that I made in December 2005 regarding the subject.
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ/msg/1cecf757109fd004?hl=en
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
only going to be as accurate as say, a clock measuring eternity. We
are able to talk about the passage of time only from our vantage point
in the slipstream of moments. We are only aware of one proximity in
time and space: because that is what our Father has placed before us.
I think of it as baby steps. He is making it "easy" for us, by
giving life to us in little bite-sized bits, so that we are able to
chew it up and digest it consciously. He wants us to mature and
graduate spiritually from this world.
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Let us review the message of Jonah. The communication between Jonah and God is such, "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live." But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?" Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city." Jonah 3:10-4:5 (NIV) Overall, this appears to indicate that the reason why Jonah fled from the Lord when the word of the Lord come to Jonah is because he already know what the Lord would do; moreover, Jonah already knew that the Lord would have compassion on the city before Jonah even testified to it. If Jonah already knew that the Lord would spare Nineveh before Jonah preached to the city, then God knew this too, so the point is that Nineveh was predestined to repent.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Adam Colbert
and many will continue to make. Jesus said "Father, if it is your
will, then take this cup from me" (i paraphrase from memory), but that
DOES NOT mean "i don't want this cup." it means "if it is your will,
take this cup from me." THAT'S IT. it is anachronistic to use OUR
PRESENT COLLOQUIAL INFERENCE ON THE USE OF CERTAIN PHRASES OF LANGUAGE
to explain what Jesus meant with the same words.
lemme ask you personally, do you officially take the stance that
Jesus' will is COMPLETELY in line with the Father's will or that
Jesus' will is SOMETIMES NOT in line with the Father's will?
i assume that you will say "completely," and i assume you're able to
back it up with scripture. i could back it up right now, but i'm
honestly too lazy to look it up. i could know the Bible a bit better
than what i do now, but i'm pretty darn sure that somewhere in the
book of John, i think around chapter 18 or 20ish, Jesus says something
like "my will and the Father's will are one," and that the Greek for
"one" used is regard to purpose and not numerical. anyway, the ONLY
way to even lay down the argument that Jesus didn't want the cup and
that he was praying it be taken away is to say that Jesus' will is
sometimes not the Father's will. and there are those within this very
group who will believe that, most of them most likely predominately
non-Christian, and i'm not saying anything bad about them. i'm just
saying it's a stance that's out there. but i highly doubt that it's a
stance to which you yourself abide. but if it is, then speak up,
because i'm confused how you can interpret "if it is your will, take
this cup from me" as somehow saying that Jesus didn't want it.
the fact that it was not the Father's will to take away the cup in
combination with the premise that Jesus' will is ALWAYS in line with
the Father's will furthermore makes a case that it was Jesus' will to
not have the cup taken away.
so why would Jesus say such a thing? notice i said "say such a thing"
and not "ask such a thing" because Christ NEVER ASKED THE CUP BE TAKEN
AWAY. my Bible doesn't have a question mark, does yours? my Bible
doesn't phrase it in such a way that Jesus specifically asks the cup
to be taken away, does yours? so Jesus "said" those words. "if it is
your will, take this cup away." again, i ask, why would Jesus say such
a thing? in my hunch, and it is only my HUNCH, that he said it because
people were listening. if people weren't listening, then how did the
context and the memory of the situation survive in the minds of those
who wrote it down so that they could write it down? i can only think
of two possibilities: 1) Jesus was completely alone, nobody was
watching, and then later after the prayer Jesus approached one or more
of The Twelve and told them what he had spoken in prayer, 2) he was
praying aloud in earshot of somebody who WOULD eventually write it
down. i think the latter is more likely. in that case, Jesus might
have said it so that one or more of the Apostles would hear it and
thereby know that it was the Father's will.
i'm running outta time, but that pretty much sums things up of why i
refute the statement that it was against Jesus' will to have the cup.
unless you can get out the ol' concordance and look up some literal
Greek translations and show evidence otherwise, i stand where i stand.
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I will give an example that may violate many people’s understanding of orthodox christology. Take for example a car; moreover, it has many parts and for example it has an engine, transmission, battery, wheels, and many other parts. Not every part in a car does the same function, and for this reason all the parts are different. The scripture itself talks about the body of Christ being the church and that every member does a different function, so this idea of personality, function, and will with the Trinity should not be a unusual idea.
Let us investigate this idea of function and personality in terms of scripture, and thus note the following,
"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' "But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless. "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are invited, but few are chosen."" Matthew 22:1-14 (NIV)
Okay in the above passage of scripture people understand this to mean that the king is God the Father, the son of the king is Christ, the servants are in some way the Holy Ghost working throughout the world as well as the evangelists and such. The wedding supper (spoken about in Revelation 19:11-18) is a prerequisite to the marriage of Christ and the New Jerusalem. The point is that each person of the Trinity has a separate personality and function, but all have the same will.
Having said this God the Son had the function in his earthly ministry of showing himself, the bride groom, to everyone in order that he may reveal himself and his ‘family’ to others. In the process I have stated and have made the case that Christ held himself back from complete knowledge, and this is why he talks about the end and says that only his father knows the hour. For this reason both Christ and the Holy Ghost have to ask of the Father’s will from time to time because they hold themselves back from complete knowledge in order that they may do their work.
Obviously a car is not a collection of intelligent parts that all have personalities, but the wheels need to coordinate with the driver and steering wheel in one type of way, the engine coordinates with the driver in another type of way. If the car was God, then the steering wheel would be the Holy Ghost, the wheels and suspension and such would be the servants of God meaning people like me and you, the driver would be God the Father, and the Engine and Transmission would be Christ the Son. In coordinating the work of the entire car the wheels need not always know the destination because they are guided, the engine and transmission need not know the beginning of the trip from the end either, and the only part of the car that needs to know every element of the trip all the time is the driver.
Having said all of this when Jesus prays, "Father if you are willing take this cup away from me" he was so admit about this that blood came out of the pours of his face. Not only that but also Christ was facing spending three days in Hall before he would raise from the dead, and so at this time Christ asked his father to take the cup away if he was willing with the hope that he would. The hope of Christ and the will of God are two different things, and for this reason the will of God was never divided. You see to give an example I may hope that I have a thousand dollars in my bank account, so when I go to check it and find that only three quarters of that is in the account then my hope is dashed but the bank and I may have the same will regarding my money namely that it be protected, kept safe, and be used for investments. Overall, just as the bank sees the money one way such that they function to loan it out for investments, and I function to use it for my care does not mean that our will is divided but it means that we have different functions but are in one accord (especially if I need to take out a loan form the bank).
The point that I am making is that God is one, the church is one (in some way and needs work on that), the Holy Ghost is one (even though it has seven spirits as described in scripture), and we are one even though we have a spirit, soul, and flesh. Despite this oneness hope and will are different as well as personality, and as a result someone in the church may ask for example, "Father if you are willing make me very wealthy." The person that has this prayer hopes for wealth, might not because of that hope have a divided will with God, and that person out of their personality brings this hope. The point that I am making is that the unity of the Trinity means that each person Father, Son, and Holy Ghost may have a lot of differences but all three persons comprise one God because none of them could function as God alone.
When Satan was cast out, I believe that he lost the ability to function as a member of God working throughout the world but we function as a member of Christ working throughout the world. As a result Satan I believe could only have the power to change appearances of things, perceptions of things, and manipulate creation in non creative ways. I do not believe that Satan has the power to create things or to produce things because he is not in God. We know that we are in God when we heal the sick, cast out demons, feed the poor, care for the sick, and do other such things that are constructive.
If Christ had not been crucified, then his mission on earth would not have been as constructive. God is the origin of constructions and maker thus of all things, and so as a result if Christ was not very constructive with his ministry then we would be not constructive at all. Overall, as a result Christ had to be crucified because it was the most constructive thing that he could have done, and that is why God did it.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
At the time I do not know anymore to say about the issue. I do think however that sometimes people disagree about such things as predestination and free will because of the narrowness of your language. I think that language is like a flowing river, but people who uses words in a denotative way in the traditional since are like those whom would dip their container in that river and say, "look I have a word, and it fits perfectly in this container." Overall, the problem is that language is intended to be a collection of meaning that together flows like the water in a river.
I just thought that I would give you some verses to consider below.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30 (NIV)
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." Ephesians 1:4-6 (NIV)
"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:9-14 (NIV)
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.’"" Romans 9:22-26 (NIV)
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
Let us review the message of Jonah. The communication between Jonah and God is such, "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live." But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?" Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city." Jonah 3:10-4:5 (NIV) Overall, this appears to indicate that the reason why Jonah fled from the Lord when the word of the Lord come to Jonah is because he already know what the Lord would do; moreover, Jonah already knew that the Lord would have compassion on the city before Jonah even testified to it. If Jonah already knew that the Lord would spare Nineveh before Jonah preached to the city, then God knew this too, so the point is that Nineveh was predestined to repent.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matthew:Finally your argument is starting to make sense. I'll agree given Rev. 12.8 that the living (and our God is the God of the Living - as Jesus speaks) are written in the book of life. I won't agree that the dead are without hope. What was it Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. He's talking about spiritual death here. Breathing, working people who are spiritually dead.Why don't I agree? What does he tell Jonah to say, "Forty days more and Ninevah shall be destroyed." If predestination existed then this statement is a lie. I ask you, can our God lie? Our God is a God of the Living not the dead, He doesn't know the dead. They can choose life. This is also consistent with Ezekial - When he tells him to tell the wicked man to change and he'll be saved. That is why there is such rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. If heaven knew ahead of time, why the need to rejoice?I said before that I was like Jonah, overlooking Nineveh, hoping they don't repent. I am not like Jonah here, you are. Your theology wants them to remain hopeless. This is not consistent with what Jesus was about. The son of man comes to save the world not condemn it.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Many of the fans of Free Will believe that only if they make their message more appealing then they will gain the unsaved into the kingdom of heaven by making the choice easier. Many of these same people could think something like, "if only I preached the gospel better or made myself more understandable then the unsaved would have been saved." The fact is the problem with some of these fans of free will is that if our free will was truly free than some of the blood that Jesus shed on the cross would have been wasted by him shedding blood for the entire world when not everyone would believe.
The fact is that Jonah as soon as he heard the Word of the Lord fled because he both chose to do so and was predestine to do so. As a result of this God used the message of Jonah being swallowed into the belly of the whale as a prophesy of Jesus Christ whom just as Jonah was swallowed into the belly of the whale so to Jesus Christ was crucified and went into the center of the earth of three days. Just as Jonah fled the word of the Lord, so to Christ prayed that his father’s cup be taken away from him. Overall, if you go back into the archives of Jesus on the web, then you will find that I am for both predestination and free will because the scripture is clearly for both.
In other words we make a choice, but that choice has already been determined before we make it.
The following is an article that I made in December 2005 regarding the subject.
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ/msg/1cecf757109fd004?hl=en
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/25/2009 10:45:19 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matthew:That hole you're digging getting deeper and deeper? Again - you bring up another argument to avoid the discussion at hand. As I stated before and you would do well to remember. Sometimes God draws a line in the sand and evil men cross it. Kind of like the commandment, thou shall not kill. Predestination is a cop out for evil men. "The devil made me do it." It allows them to do as they will and say it wasn't their fault - I was predestined. God didn't crucify Jesus and I'd say its sacrilegious to say so. And if I remember correctly, He gave Jesus the power to bring himself back.
To further support my argument, God told (shall I say commanded) Jonah to go to Ninevah. He didn't go, so he had to live with the consequences of that action. A rather unpleasant experience. There are consequences to the choices we make. I never said there weren't. So God asked him to go again and he went. Jesus said he had to face the rulers of this world. He chose to go. The difference is in Nineveh - they repented. In Jerusalem - they did not. They killed an innocent man. There are consequences for the actions we take. What did God tell Abraham, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.Know the Lord,Pete
Know the Lord,Pete
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/24/2009 9:34:03 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Matthew:What's that sound I hear? Is that the sound of you digging your own grave?Did I ever deny Jesus was the author of life? First off - you say God commanded Mary and even if she assented she had no other options. This isn't exactly consistent with the God I've come to know and love. God gives us many commandments, and people break them all the time. Murder, theft are among the few I can think of. Furthermore, tell me if she had said no, how is this not rape?The root of yer problem with my argument seems to be that you worry people will put their own will above God. Or that if we have free will with regard to faith then God will be beneath free will. They do this all the time and it is called sin. If the God who created the world allows this to happen. If God empowers man, who are you to question God's will? What you are saying is another logical fallousy. The slippery slope - which is why I wrote this argument in the first place. Consider Jonah and Nineveh, just because you can go to hell doesn't mean you will go to hell.If free will is a gift of God, then who is greater? The gift or the one who gives the gift? As to it being God's greatest gift, I haven't thought about that.Do us all a favor, bow down to my superior argument and say "uncle."
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
I hope that you are ready for my explanation because it is a little extreme and perhaps to extreme.
I realize that my use of the phrase pro choice was a little bit like a slide of hand, but in a way we need to recognize that not only ‘church people’ are in favor of choices but also people who would not be caught dead in a church. If we are to tell people that they have a choice, and then try to legislate people from making a choice, then how could we say that free will is the greatest gift of God. According to the scripture Mary was told that she would be with child and it was so, but today so many people preach free will that to them the rewritten version of the story of Christ birth showing maximum usage of the free will concept would read something like the following (This is a message that I do not support in any way),
"Mary made a choice to listen to the voice of the person whom she made a choice to recognize as Gabriel the angel one day. God loves you like he loves everyone else he said. Mary thus was troubled that she may soon feel the necessity to reject a decree from God that would be to hard for her to do. The angel then said don’t worry God is really pleased with you. If you so make the choice that we expect out of you then you can have a child, and if you make the choice then you can name him Jesus upon your own free will if and only if you make the choice not to end the pregnancy early. If you make all the right choices, then he will be a good guy called the son of God if he so decides that upon his own free will. God will give him all kinds of stuff unless his choices mess things up and cause him to loose it all including his birth right. Then she said how will this be I am a virgin and soon may make the choice to give my virginity to my soon to be husband. The angel then explained "thus if you so decide based upon your own free will the Holy Ghost if he also chooses will overshadow you and give you a child, but if you decide to no longer be a virgin, then we might not know who the father is." Free will is the greatest gift of God, and by the way if you or anyone chooses to reject him then nothing that God says will come to pass showing who is really in charge of their own free will." *** Note I do not endorse the above message at all and only use it for demonstration purposes, and instead I endorse the message of the scripture that is listed below regarding the birth of Christ.
The gospel according to Luke chapter one verses twenty-six through thirty-eight, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her." (NIV) The point is that God did not ask Mary if she wanted to be with child or not, but instead Gabriel told her that she would be with child and this appears to be presented to Mary as a gift.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/21/2009 9:18:41 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Slow Down Matt:I believe you just committed, perhaps unknowingly, what they call a logical fallousy. I'm not sure which one. A strawman? You did so by throwing up a false argument to avoid answering the question. Mary isn't being prochoice, if the fetus isn't in her womb yet. She agrees to God's will. If she doesn't and still has to go through with the child, then - by our human definition - this would be rape.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
If Marry would have been inclined to say no to the birth of Christ or to be pro choice, then the Lord would not have chosen her. If however the Lord would have still chosen her under such circumstances, then he would have given Marry the faith to believe in a pro life message. Either way God is in control, and note that I am not in anyway indicating that Marry was like this at all in regards to a pro choice doctrine. You however appear to indicate that marry had a choice about the birth of Jesus, and I however am indicating that being pro choice is just not an option.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/20/2009 10:23:59 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our LivesHi Matt:And if Mary said, "No, I don't want a child." The book would be different. A book with free will isn't like a book you get at the library.
Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Thank you,
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>> > Know the Lord,
>> >
>> > Pete
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:42 AM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >> Mathew Enoch Mount
>> >>
>> >> mmo...@essex1.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------- Original Message ------->> >> From : Adam Colbert[ mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
>> >> Subject : RE: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
>> >>
>> >>
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
mmo...@essex1.com
No Peter,
My theology is the same as that of Barabas, you see Barabas did nothing for Jesus to save him from death. Nevertheless Barabas was set free because Christ was Crucified, and in this way Barabas was chosen to be saved because Jesus paid the penalty for sin in the case of Barabas. Overall, if Barabas was not chosen by God then this would not have happened, so the crucifixion of Christ had to happen in order that Christ would die for the one, "each and every one individually and not the many."
This outcome became the best result overall. Remember the lost sheep; moreover, the good shepherd leaves all the sheep behind to find just one lost sheep and once found the shepherd beings him or her into the flock regardless of its desires to run.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Agbasoga Ojirika
Thank you very much.
Agbasoga
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Jesus Christ was born as both God and Man, he died, and he arose from the dead. This was described by many people for centuries before it happened in the Nation of Israel. Christ showed himself to people, showed his father to the believer though him, and he showed the work of the Holy Ghost as well. By God thus showing himself in the form of these three person Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, those whom God has called to himself for reconciliation are saved from an eternity alienated from God as a result of sin.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
From : Agbasoga Ojirika[mailto:agba...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/26/2009 6:16:04 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matt:Your opinion - you don't know if its the best outcome. Go back in time, play the role Caiaphus, Herod or Pilate your theology still crucifies him. You crucify him. I don't.Know the Lord,Pete
No Peter,
My theology is the same as that of Barabas, you see Barabas did nothing for Jesus to save him from death. Nevertheless Barabas was set free because Christ was Crucified, and in this way Barabas was chosen to be saved because Jesus paid the penalty for sin in the case of Barabas. Overall, if Barabas was not chosen by God then this would not have happened, so the crucifixion of Christ had to happen in order that Christ would die for the one, "each and every one individually and not the many."
This outcome became the best result overall. Remember the lost sheep; moreover, the good shepherd leaves all the sheep behind to find just one lost sheep and once found the shepherd beings him or her into the flock regardless of its desires to run.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matt:I'm not letting you go that easy. My argument keeps getting stronger. He predestined the living to be his adopted sons and daughters. Yes, I agree and said as much before with regard to the elect. Basically, that which is His is protected. And I think Jesus supports this when he says - the only sin that won't be forgiven the sons of men is blaspheming the spirit.Your statement of Paul says nothing about predestination with regard to the actions that take place in this world. This is the realm of the dead. In a fools paradise - anything can happen. Those of the world - who are dead and not written in the book of life can repent, do good works and be saved. Jesus says as much when he says that they won't or else they'll be saved. For the most part though, I'll admit - they won't repent. Then again there is always the exception - Nineveh. Nineveh - the ancient enemy of Israel gives hope to the dead.Given your theology, you really think that the crucifixion had to happen. That it was the best possible outcome. If this is the case and you went back in time to play the role of Caisphus, Pilate or Herod then you'd have no choice but to crucify Jesus. In a sense your theology is the same as that of Caiaphus - one shall die so that many shall live.Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
At the time I do not know anymore to say about the issue. I do think however that sometimes people disagree about such things as predestination and free will because of the narrowness of your language. I think that language is like a flowing river, but people who uses words in a denotative way in the traditional since are like those whom would dip their container in that river and say, "look I have a word, and it fits perfectly in this container." Overall, the problem is that language is intended to be a collection of meaning that together flows like the water in a river.
I just thought that I would give you some verses to consider below.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:28-30 (NIV)
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." Ephesians 1:4-6 (NIV)
"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:9-14 (NIV)
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.’"" Romans 9:22-26 (NIV)
Thank you,
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/26/2009 9:10:40 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matthew:Enough! You never really answer a specific question I ask. You give your same fuzzy theology, and it is fuzzy. Answer the question at hand. God doesn't say through Jonah, "Repent or be destroyed in 40 days." He says to go and tell Nineveh that they will be destroyed in 40 days. That is a specific statement. Clearly God was planning on destruction. Either that or he is wishy-washy and doesn't mean what he says. In other words a liar. If the future is indeed predetermined by God, how is this not a lie?Other than that we can agree to disagree here - but what about my views on life and death. Consistent with what I have said about the Descartes and Hobbes argument. God isn't really infinite if he isn't finite. A view that is consistent with both philosophy and scripture. Going back to Genesis - Eve as the mother of the living - this also accounts for how Eve's children could marry. Kind of ties the whole thing together.I'm speaking from experience here. The fact of the matter is, if we're lucky, we can count on 1 friend in 1000. The other 999 are not friendly, though they may pretend to be. Now days, we're so outnumbered, I don't even know if the percentage is that high. The antichrist pretty much runs everything, including our churches. Unlike you, I don't put much stock in ordination. Ran into too many bad clergy. Do they repent, can they be saved, or do they just laugh at us behind our backs? What did Jesus say? Support a wise man because he is a wise man and get a wise man's reward.Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Let us review the message of Jonah. The communication between Jonah and God is such, "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live." But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?" Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city." Jonah 3:10-4:5 (NIV) Overall, this appears to indicate that the reason why Jonah fled from the Lord when the word of the Lord come to Jonah is because he already know what the Lord would do; moreover, Jonah already knew that the Lord would have compassion on the city before Jonah even testified to it. If Jonah already knew that the Lord would spare Nineveh before Jonah preached to the city, then God knew this too, so the point is that Nineveh was predestined to repent.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matthew:Finally your argument is starting to make sense. I'll agree given Rev. 12.8 that the living (and our God is the God of the Living - as Jesus speaks) are written in the book of life. I won't agree that the dead are without hope. What was it Jesus said, let the dead bury the dead. He's talking about spiritual death here. Breathing, working people who are spiritually dead.Why don't I agree? What does he tell Jonah to say, "Forty days more and Ninevah shall be destroyed." If predestination existed then this statement is a lie. I ask you, can our God lie? Our God is a God of the Living not the dead, He doesn't know the dead. They can choose life. This is also consistent with Ezekial - When he tells him to tell the wicked man to change and he'll be saved. That is why there is such rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. If heaven knew ahead of time, why the need to rejoice?I said before that I was like Jonah, overlooking Nineveh, hoping they don't repent. I am not like Jonah here, you are. Your theology wants them to remain hopeless. This is not consistent with what Jesus was about. The son of man comes to save the world not condemn it.Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Many of the fans of Free Will believe that only if they make their message more appealing then they will gain the unsaved into the kingdom of heaven by making the choice easier. Many of these same people could think something like, "if only I preached the gospel better or made myself more understandable then the unsaved would have been saved." The fact is the problem with some of these fans of free will is that if our free will was truly free than some of the blood that Jesus shed on the cross would have been wasted by him shedding blood for the entire world when not everyone would believe.
The fact is that Jonah as soon as he heard the Word of the Lord fled because he both chose to do so and was predestine to do so. As a result of this God used the message of Jonah being swallowed into the belly of the whale as a prophesy of Jesus Christ whom just as Jonah was swallowed into the belly of the whale so to Jesus Christ was crucified and went into the center of the earth of three days. Just as Jonah fled the word of the Lord, so to Christ prayed that his father’s cup be taken away from him. Overall, if you go back into the archives of Jesus on the web, then you will find that I am for both predestination and free will because the scripture is clearly for both.
In other words we make a choice, but that choice has already been determined before we make it.
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-the-christ/msg/1cecf757109fd004?hl=enThe following is an article that I made in December 2005 regarding the subject.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/25/2009 10:45:19 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hi Matthew:That hole you're digging getting deeper and deeper? Again - you bring up another argument to avoid the discussion at hand. As I stated before and you would do well to remember. Sometimes God draws a line in the sand and evil men cross it. Kind of like the commandment, thou shall not kill. Predestination is a cop out for evil men. "The devil made me do it." It allows them to do as they will and say it wasn't their fault - I was predestined. God didn't crucify Jesus and I'd say its sacrilegious to say so. And if I remember correctly, He gave Jesus the power to bring himself back.
To further support my argument, God told (shall I say commanded) Jonah to go to Ninevah. He didn't go, so he had to live with the consequences of that action. A rather unpleasant experience. There are consequences to the choices we make. I never said there weren't. So God asked him to go again and he went. Jesus said he had to face the rulers of this world. He chose to go. The difference is in Nineveh - they repented. In Jerusalem - they did not. They killed an innocent man. There are consequences for the actions we take. What did God tell Abraham, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.Know the Lord,PeteKnow the Lord,Pete
Hello,
If free will is really free then why did Jesus have to be killed for it. After all who would give their life for something free anyway? My point is that Jesus said, "Father if your willing take this cup away from me." Obviously he was not willing to do so, and so free will is not really free.
Christ was predestined to be tortured and crucified even though he was and is God.
My mother however suggests the story of Christ crucifixion is that he was born from the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost on Mary and this never departed from him until death, and then when he said, "Father if you are willing take this cup away from me" what he was talking about was the communion with God the Father. In this understanding of scripture this was necessary because otherwise Jesus would not have been able to be wounded by the torture of the Roman soldiers. Then according to this same interpretation Jesus gave up the Ghost when he said Father into your hands I commend my spirit. The problem appears however to be that Jesus said, "Father why have you forsaken me", and he would not have said this if his free will was really free because it would have been his choice to not be killed on the cross.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/24/2009 9:34:03 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Matthew:What's that sound I hear? Is that the sound of you digging your own grave?Did I ever deny Jesus was the author of life? First off - you say God commanded Mary and even if she assented she had no other options. This isn't exactly consistent with the God I've come to know and love. God gives us many commandments, and people break them all the time. Murder, theft are among the few I can think of. Furthermore, tell me if she had said no, how is this not rape?The root of yer problem with my argument seems to be that you worry people will put their own will above God. Or that if we have free will with regard to faith then God will be beneath free will. They do this all the time and it is called sin. If the God who created the world allows this to happen. If God empowers man, who are you to question God's will? What you are saying is another logical fallousy. The slippery slope - which is why I wrote this argument in the first place. Consider Jonah and Nineveh, just because you can go to hell doesn't mean you will go to hell.If free will is a gift of God, then who is greater? The gift or the one who gives the gift? As to it being God's greatest gift, I haven't thought about that.Do us all a favor, bow down to my superior argument and say "uncle."Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
I hope that you are ready for my explanation because it is a little extreme and perhaps to extreme.
I realize that my use of the phrase pro choice was a little bit like a slide of hand, but in a way we need to recognize that not only ‘church people’ are in favor of choices but also people who would not be caught dead in a church. If we are to tell people that they have a choice, and then try to legislate people from making a choice, then how could we say that free will is the greatest gift of God. According to the scripture Mary was told that she would be with child and it was so, but today so many people preach free will that to them the rewritten version of the story of Christ birth showing maximum usage of the free will concept would read something like the following (This is a message that I do not support in any way),
"Mary made a choice to listen to the voice of the person whom she made a choice to recognize as Gabriel the angel one day. God loves you like he loves everyone else he said. Mary thus was troubled that she may soon feel the necessity to reject a decree from God that would be to hard for her to do. The angel then said don’t worry God is really pleased with you. If you so make the choice that we expect out of you then you can have a child, and if you make the choice then you can name him Jesus upon your own free will if and only if you make the choice not to end the pregnancy early. If you make all the right choices, then he will be a good guy called the son of God if he so decides that upon his own free will. God will give him all kinds of stuff unless his choices mess things up and cause him to loose it all including his birth right. Then she said how will this be I am a virgin and soon may make the choice to give my virginity to my soon to be husband. The angel then explained "thus if you so decide based upon your own free will the Holy Ghost if he also chooses will overshadow you and give you a child, but if you decide to no longer be a virgin, then we might not know who the father is." Free will is the greatest gift of God, and by the way if you or anyone chooses to reject him then nothing that God says will come to pass showing who is really in charge of their own free will." *** Note I do not endorse the above message at all and only use it for demonstration purposes, and instead I endorse the message of the scripture that is listed below regarding the birth of Christ.
The gospel according to Luke chapter one verses twenty-six through thirty-eight, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God." "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her." (NIV) The point is that God did not ask Mary if she wanted to be with child or not, but instead Gabriel told her that she would be with child and this appears to be presented to Mary as a gift.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Sent : 8/21/2009 9:18:41 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Slow Down Matt:I believe you just committed, perhaps unknowingly, what they call a logical fallousy. I'm not sure which one. A strawman? You did so by throwing up a false argument to avoid answering the question. Mary isn't being prochoice, if the fetus isn't in her womb yet. She agrees to God's will. If she doesn't and still has to go through with the child, then - by our human definition - this would be rape.Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
If Marry would have been inclined to say no to the birth of Christ or to be pro choice, then the Lord would not have chosen her. If however the Lord would have still chosen her under such circumstances, then he would have given Marry the faith to believe in a pro life message. Either way God is in control, and note that I am not in anyway indicating that Marry was like this at all in regards to a pro choice doctrine. You however appear to indicate that marry had a choice about the birth of Jesus, and I however am indicating that being pro choice is just not an option.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
------- Original Message -------
From : Peter VanGee[mailto:peter...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/20/2009 10:23:59 AM
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our LivesHi Matt:And if Mary said, "No, I don't want a child." The book would be different. A book with free will isn't like a book you get at the library.Know the Lord,Pete
Hello,
Note in the following passage Jesus Christ is seen at the author of salvation, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10 (NIV) The idea that Christ is the author of our salvation tells me that man can do nothing to be saved because only God can save man; moreover, this parallels the passage that says that with man salvation is impossible but with God all things are possible.
Note again Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NIV) The point that I am making is that Jesus being the author of our faith is the one who created it, and Christ did not keep our faith to himself but instead gave it to us so that we may believe in him. Jesus Christ not only endured the cross for he also gave us the faith to believe in the message of the cross because he is the author of our faith.
Thank you,
From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >> Mathew Enoch Mount
>> >>
>> >> mmo...@essex1.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ------- Original Message -------
>> >> From : Adam Colbert[ mailto:adamc...@hotmail.com]
Subin Raju
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Peter I was just simply quoting scripture namely Hebrews 9:22 that you apparently are opposed to.
I can not see how your position can stand in context of scripture as noted by the following,
"In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." Hebrews 9:16-28 (NIV)
You see Peter you have no reason to indicate that Jesus did not have to be killed for our salvation.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Mathew Enoch Mount
Let me just demonstrate God’s awesome holiness by quoting the
following, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be
cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no
forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22 (NIV) The gospel of the Lord, Praise be to
God.
***Sorry about the blank e-mails. I had problems with my mail server.
> Hi Sabu:
>
> I know my flaw: I like my ideas to win out. I have fun discussing, and I
> do concede when I think I'm wrong. If I see a flaw in anothers argument,
> I'll keep going til I get to the root of it. I don't know if we can be
> friends for I do not know if Matt is my friend. He couldn't even come out
> and admit that he would crucify Christ. Evil hates to come to light. He
> indirectly says, there can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.
> Jesus proved that was wrong.
>
> Know the Lord,
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Subin Raju <subinmavun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What evil is going on here.You people are fighting here ....remember that
> > is evil.We people have different belief systems depends on their
> > experience.Please dont fight and dont try to change others belief
> > system.Only God can reveal the truth.So stop searching and
> > fighting.Searching and fighting ends where we find the reality.....so just
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Peter VanGee <petervan...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> You kidding? Starting to show your true colors? Becareful of
> >> the archaic morality. Actually, Jesus said the son of man could forgive
> >> sins. To prove it he healed a man. The exact opposite of what you are
> >> saying. Get behind me satan!
>
> >> Know the Lord,
>
> >> Pete
>
> >> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:26 PM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>wrote:
>
> >>> There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.
> >>> ------- Original Message -------
> >>> *Sent :* 8/26/2009 4:59:42 PM
> >>> *To :* jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
> >>> *Cc :*
> >>> *Subject :* RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL
>
> >>> Hi Matt:
>
> >>> Your opinion - you don't know if its the best outcome. Go back in time,
> >>> play the role Caiaphus, Herod or Pilate your theology still crucifies him.
> >>> You crucify him. I don't.
>
> >>> Know the Lord,
>
> >>> Pete
>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 5:42 PM, mmo...@essex1.com <mmo...@essex1.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> No Peter,
>
> >>>> My theology is the same as that of Barabas, you see Barabas did nothing
> >>>> for Jesus to save him from death. Nevertheless Barabas was set free because
> >>>> Christ was Crucified, and in this way Barabas was chosen to be saved because
> >>>> Jesus paid the penalty for sin in the case of Barabas. Overall, if Barabas
> >>>> was not chosen by God then this would not have happened, so the crucifixion
> >>>> of Christ had to happen in order that Christ would die for the one, "each
> >>>> and every one individually and not the many."
>
> >>>> This outcome became the best result overall. Remember the lost sheep;
> >>>> moreover, the good shepherd leaves all the sheep behind to find just one
> >>>> lost sheep and once found the shepherd beings him or her into the flock
> >>>> regardless of its desires to run.
>
> >>>> Thank you,
>
> >>>> Mathew Enoch Mount
> >>>> mmo...@essex1.com
> >>>> ------- Original Message -------
> >>>> *Sent :* 8/26/2009 4:12:05 PM
> >>>> *To :* jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> *Cc :*
> >>>> *Subject :* RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL
> >>>>> *Sent :* 8/26/2009 9:10:40 AM
> >>>>> *To :* jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> *Cc :*
> >>>>> *Subject :* RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE
>
> >>>>> Hi Matthew:
>
> >>>>> Enough! You never really answer a specific question I ask. You give
> >>>>> your same fuzzy theology, and it is fuzzy. Answer the question at hand.
> >>>>> God doesn't say through Jonah, "Repent or be destroyed in 40 days." He says
> >>>>> to go and tell Nineveh that they will be destroyed in 40 days. That is a
> >>>>> specific statement. Clearly God was planning on
>
>
> read more »
>
> 330.gif
> < 1KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
The scripture says that in order for an inheritance to be given someone has to first die, and it is this way that the atonement of blood works. Up until Jesus died God shared what he had with the Jews just like the Father shared what he had with the son that stayed at home in the story of the prodigal son, and the prodigal son is the one whom asked for his inheritance early and wasted it all. The prodigal son represents the gentiles, and in order that God’s divorce of the gentiles to be fully reversed Jesus had to die and an inheritance had to be issued. You see when the prodigal son returned he was right back to sharing his father’s estate, and his father had to die in order that the children could fully take charge of the very things that sustained the families life.
Jesus Christ had the power to forgive sins in his historic earthly ministry as a result of what he would do on the cross, and in this way God was sharing the kingdom of heaven with people. This gives even more reason to believe in predestination that Christ shared the kingdom of God with people by forgiving sins and as a result displayed that he was predestined to be killed. Overall, just as scripture says without someone’s death there is no inheritance, thus it took Christ death for people to truly inherent the kingdom of heaven.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Even the scripture describes Jesus Christ as High Priest in the book of Hebrews who made one sacrifice, and by that sacrifice we have atonement of sins. The scripture also talks about the early temple being a copy of the temple in Heaven, and as a result we learn that Jesus had to die in order to fulfill the need for animal sacrifice; moreover, this is why we do not need to gain control of the temple again and raise up a priest hood to perform animal sacrifice.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
ON EARTH Ministries
All of this on the tail of a conversation that started out as an
introductory post to the group regarding leading a meaningful life...
It seems that the scholarly Brother Mathew, in trying to express his
devoutly sincere beliefs in a concise, well researched manner, has
played into Peter's need to cast him some sort of Neo-Pharisees in his
own self-righteous witch hunt. Peter's demeanor, or "demon air", is
all to familiar. He is the one who approached Jesus in the desert.
When called on it, he runs and hides behind an apology and a
rationalization, like Golum. How dare he evoke the words of our lord
and say "Get behind me Satan"!
I am finding his aggressive, mercenary behaviour repelling,
embarrassing, hopelessly without love, devoid of compassion, and
totally contradictory to, and diametrically apposed to the Jesus Way.
i am disgusted, and struggle to keep my self from not loving him.
anyone who works so hard to inspire non-kingdom feelings, should
consider who's bidding he is doing.
Perhaps this is exactly what he is trying to do.
Lets all pray for Peter.
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Peter’s entire case as I will summarize is that free will predominates everything, Jesus Christ did not have to be killed on the cross, blood atonement (specifically the blood of Jesus paying for our sins) to him is morally and spiritually apprehensible. Peter is also against many of the biblical practices of the ancient Hebrews being applied today. Overall, Peter’s aggressive tone comes from his desire to go against evil (as he understands it) directly and attack it.
The value in many enthusiasts like Peter is that they make dialog before a world audience, and this allows for the possibility that the truth will come forward even if none of us individually are correct.
Yes however I can understand your concerns regarding Peter.
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
ON EARTH Ministries
this group, hoping to broaden the perspective of my
post-denominational ministry. I have fighting fundamentalists,
African-American Full Gospel Baptists, New Exodus young people, and
"Christ-curious" Buddhists in my immediate flock. I am not
uninitiated into the world of disagreement, debate, and more
disagreement, believe me.
But, I think that, at some point we endanger exactly what we come here
for: Intellectual Fellowship, in the catholic (with a small 'c')
church. We are one church, and we worship one God. Through our many
and varied interpretations and views of God, Scripture, truth, time,
meaning versus definition, and the nature of fate, we are brothers and
sisters. Madly in love with our Father, his son, and filled with the
Holy Spirit and inspired not only to love each other, but everyone,
unconditionally.
Let me tell you a parable about a Star Trek Convention. All of the
regulars were there: Fans of the three (Kirk, Spock, McCoy or action,
thought, emotion), those that new every line in every story, there
were those who argued the fate of characters in alternative time
lines, etc.
Think about how Christians can be likes Trekkie's. When was the last
time you were confronted by one of these misinformed zealots that use
the Bible as if it we some sort of Dungeons and Dragons Manual!?
God doesn't want fans, he wants REAL ASTRONAUTS.
I mean seriously, if you believe in God as the author and creator of
all reality, and prescribe, in your heart, to the basic teachings and
tenant of Jesus' ministries, aren't you a little humbled and
embarrassed? I am! i think we have a tremendous opportunity to be a
part of something far bigger than the sum of its individual parts.
i think we need to set ourselves apart as an on-line Christian
community, and demonstrate some Kingdom behaviour.
working together, making peace... You've heard of this, right? the
Lord's work, i believe....
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I was not particularly disagreeing with your analysis of Peter; moreover, my only concern is that your analysis may have been rather harsh. I think that the place that we need to focus harsh language is upon the analysis of writers like Stone That Bleeds. Overall, I think that I can understand your reference to the Star Track conventions, and although I have never been to one I can understand how a Star Track fan can differ from a real astronaut.
I have always had the policy of speaking with a person about the gospel and our God with anyone who is the least bit receptive of the message. The time that I usually have to stop communication with that person is when they tell me that they will no longer listen to what I have to say about Jesus or when they dictate to me that I have to believe a certain way or do certain things that I believe the scripture is opposed to. Overall, my point is that God can use us to promote the gospel even in the most hostile environments.
Remember how Moses went to God to receive the ten commandments, and upon doing so the Israelites had a festival of sin and worshipped the golden calf. This is what caused Moses to issue the curse of the law saying, "if you cannot live by the law, then die by the law", and not only that but also the house of Levi was commanded to kill their brothers so that everyone had lost someone. My point is that for Jesus Christ the most important commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and sole, and the second is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and as a result of this the command to the house of Levi to kill his brothers demonstrated the need to love God more than man.
The point is that above all else we should love God. As a result of our love for God, Jesus says that even in our own household their will be division for he said that he did not come to bring peace but the sward. Overall, people had been in a state of peace in constructing the tower of Babel because they all had been in one accord to work against God to reach God, so God confounded their language in order that they may stop their evil ways and only until Pentecost did God reverse the curse of the tower of Babel by allowing people to understand each other again despite language by the work of the Holy Ghost.
I believe that what has happened is that the church was developing a more recent Tower of Babel, so God confounded their understanding so as to cause a break down of the church into denomination after denomination after denomination. The point of the Genesis 11 story of the Tower of Babel is that people took upon their own accord to try to reach heaven as one people with one language, and God scattered them because I believe the appropriate manner to approach God is not to approach God but instead to be receptive of his appearance in our lives. Overall, the point of the birth of Christ is that God showed himself to the entire world; moreover, my point is that God shows himself to us and no amount of attempts to build the kingdom to reach him will ever amount to anything more than building a Tower of Babel.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Even if people come to crucify you because of the gospel, then you will have accomplished your mission of promoting the gospel because it was Christ that they crucified first and by crucifying you they show the crucifixion of Christ to the world and thus it is said that the place that the servant is their the Master is as well.
ON EARTH Ministries
Once again I must apologize. Obviously, as I stated in an earlier
post, "...the skin of the drum that the father beats out the rhythm of
His will in my life on is drawn taunt.", and, not only am I compelled
to tell everyone that isn't the beat of a task master, I should
remember, myself as well, that it isn't a war drum either, or I will
certainly be acting like a terrible hypocrite. Perhaps my frustration
comes from the same place Peter's zeal does: A sense of earnestness
and sincerity that often out paces my ability to be patient and
humble.
I just think it would be very sad if we might become ineffectual
parodies of historical archetypes. The Zealots, with their sticks,
roaming around Jerusalem enforcing their militant concept of
correctness. The Pharisees, who's seemed to think that thought,
doctrine, systemization, and compliance would somehow 'earn' them the
favor of the Father, and he will reward them, either in this world or
the next . The Herodians and Sagucees, who were political, and saw
themselves as intellectual, pragmatic and resourceful. There are so
many ways we can fall victim of our pride.
I see so much potential in Brother Peter. It would be beautiful to
see such an inspired young man use his gifts for love. And Brother
Mathew, what a mighty blessing God has given you! You seem so bright,
focused, and devoted. Your insights into, and understanding of
scripture are impressive. My concern for you is that you might be
kept busy by challenges from far afield, and your harvest might not be
gathered, milled, and baked into bread, because you use the brightness
of your lamplight and the strength of you staff to keep trampling
hooves out, and marauding wolves at bay.
I share your concern about STB. I also understand his concerns
regarding Paul. If I have ANY questions regarding any of the
scriptures' writers, I defer to Jesus. And if my opinion is
reinforced or dispelled, I trust in him. Perhaps STB doesn't realize
how much he might resemble the one who came down from the tombs
ranting and rattling his chains. At any rate, I think he deserves
love, prayer and close watching.
I seek to draw us together as the family of our Father. The one that
transcends the earthly. I find it ironic that you use that example.
Do you believe that he came to cause this kind of confusion and
division among his own followers? Do you think that perhaps his own
message was meant to be self-divisive? Do you believe that he was
making a new agreement, or Covenant of scandalous inclusiveness,
revolutionary continuity, and absolute, unconditional, unilateral love
and surrender? Are we left to reconcile in our minds, what can only
possibly be known in our hearts?
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Christ did pray that all the believers be one just as he and the father are one, and I do believe for the most part that people that believe in Christ firmly are able to recognize each other. I think the problem occurs when churches promote denominational doctrine in place of the gospel of God. Overall, I thus can see some value in covenant theology, but like many things people take something that is godly and manage to make it into something that is evil.
Let us consider how the Tower of Babble differed from temple worship and the work of Christ on the earth. First of all, the Tower of Babble was man’s attempt to reach God whereas the temple was given to man in terms of its plans prior to being built. With the Tower of Babble, people wanted to either to be like God or they wanted to be God and some may have even believed themselves to be Gods. With the temple, people knew that God’s presence resided inside, and so everyone knew that God basically set up his throne among man so that an entire nation firstly and other nations secondly could both recognize God to be greater than themselves and approach God.
The Tower of Babble was an attempt to look for something Holy such as an experience of heaven or an experience of God. When Christ appeared on the Earth, most everyone was not looking for him except for those whom studied and observed signs from God, and as a result God showed himself to people. The Tower of Babble may have been an attempt to allow for some to have more power over others because not everyone could be on top of the tower at all times whereas the crucifixion of Christ showed that God himself allowed wicked man to have power over him until death and even at the cost of public ridicule. If the Tower of Babble had been built, then it would have given kings power for whoever controlled the tower would have the power. Christ however was crowned king of the Jews with a crown of suffering for his people’s sake, and with open arms Christ said on the cross, "Farther forgive them for they know not what they do."
The problem that the church encountered is that toward the end of its days as being one undivided collection of believers what happened, I believe, is that the organization of the church worked on developing a Tower of Babble, so God caused them to fracture and he broke them apart. Many people try to build their own little towers these days with fragments of the original, but that only results in the same fracturing and division. Overall, Christ work on the earth in his physical ministry was not about building a tower to reach God because Christ is God and he came to people and appeared while no one recognized him.
The message of the birth of Christ is that God came to us, and we did not have to build a tower to him to reach God. The message of the death of Christ is that God was not on top of a tower that people built to reach him, but instead God was on top of a cross that people made to shame and reject him because they hated him. The message of the resurrection of Christ is that despite every attempt for man to shun him, kill him, and utterly turn their backs from him Christ rose from the dead and sits as king over all the earth ruling; moreover, this is just the opposite message as that of the fans of tower building.
When you are like Saul looking to have Christians killed and looking to build for yourself a mighty tower to reach God, it is then that God breaks that tower, appears, and shows himself. When you are preparing that Sunday sermon about baptism while drawing together all your resources to prove yourself right, it is then that the mighty tower is built. If God did not destroy the mighty towers that men build to reach him, then people would not realize that God is not to be approached with a mighty tower. In fact because of the gospel we do not approach God, but instead God approaches us.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
The problem is Peter that if I took on your argument seriously from the standpoint of someone who would take it as a biblical based argument, then I would have to go outside the context of the scripture. The scripture says that their is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and for me to take on your argument specifically that says that Jesus did not have to die but instead would forgive people anyway then I would ether have to abandon scripture or I would have to admit that your argument just is not founded in scripture and as a result is something that scripture would never talk about specifically. I take the case that your argument is something that scripture just would never talk about specifically because scripture teaches blood atonement, and thus your argument is perhaps impossible for someone to believe in whom believes that scripture is infallible.
The places that scripture would perhaps talk about your argument generally is cases such as that of teachings generated from man and not from God. In that case we are warned not to espouse such teachings less the cross be robbed of its power. I am afraid that your argument has the potential of robbing the cross of its power if people believe in it.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
> Peter’s entire case as I will summarize is that free will predominates
> everything, Jesus Christ did not have to be killed on the cross, blood
> atonement (specifically the blood of Jesus paying for our sins) to him is
> morally and spiritually apprehensible. Peter is also against many of the
> biblical practices of the ancient Hebrews being applied today. Overall,
> Peter’s aggressive tone comes from his desire to go against evil (as he
> understands it) directly and attack it.
>
> The value in many enthusiasts like Peter is that they make dialog before a
> world audience, and this allows for the possibility that the truth will come
> forward even if none of us individually are correct.
>
> Yes however I can understand your concerns regarding Peter.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mathew Enoch Mount
> mmo...@essex1.com
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> From : ON EARTH Ministries[mailto:onearth.ministr...@gmail.com]
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Regarding the Book of Isaiah I feel that not enough people read Isaiah, so I will provide significant reference to Isaiah in the following regarding the issue of sacrifice and blood atonement.
""I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.' All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations- a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick; who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat; who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me, for I am too sacred for you!' Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day. "See, it stands written before me: I will not keep silent but will pay back in full; I will pay it back into their laps- " Isaiah 65:1-6 (NIV)
The point in the above selection is that the Lord shows himself to all people yet his people have turned their face from the Lord to follow their own ways thus making God upset; moreover, God thus takes those who are not his people to be his people as a result.
"The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. "But you—come here, you sons of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes! Whom are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars? You burn with lust among the oaks and under every spreading tree; you sacrifice your children in the ravines and under the overhanging crags. The idols among the smooth stones of the ravines are your portion; they, they are your lot. Yes, to them you have poured out drink offerings and offered grain offerings. In the light of these things, should I relent? You have made your bed on a high and lofty hill; there you went up to offer your sacrifices. Behind your doors and your doorposts you have put your pagan symbols. Forsaking me, you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness. You went to Molech with olive oil and increased your perfumes. You sent your ambassadors far away; you descended to the grave itself! You were wearied by all your ways, but you would not say, 'It is hopeless.' You found renewal of your strength, and so you did not faint. "Whom have you so dreaded and feared that you have been false to me, and have neither remembered me nor pondered this in your hearts? Is it not because I have long been silent that you do not fear me? I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you. When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you! The wind will carry all of them off, a mere breath will blow them away. But the man who makes me his refuge will inherit the land and possess my holy mountain." Isaiah 57:1-13 (NIV)
The point in the above passages is that God is dealing with those whom have turned to their own ways and their own Gods to such an extent as to promote all manner of evil. Such people do not provide acceptable sacrifices to God.
"This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant- these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered." Come, all you beasts of the field, come and devour, all you beasts of the forest! Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep. They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain. "Come," each one cries, "let me get wine! Let us drink our fill of beer! And tomorrow will be like today, or even far better." Isaiah 56:1-12 (NIV)
The selection of scripture above shows how Israel has chased after their own Gods and their own ways, and as a result God will gather together even more than his people Israel for salvation and will bless the faithful.
""Yet you have not called upon me, O Jacob, you have not wearied yourselves for me, O Israel. You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings, nor honored me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with grain offerings nor wearied you with demands for incense. You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me, or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices. But you have burdened me with your sins and wearied me with your offenses. "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence. Your first father sinned; your spokesmen rebelled against me. So I will disgrace the dignitaries of your temple, and I will consign Jacob to destruction and Israel to scorn." Isaiah 43:22-28 (NIV)
In the above passage God appears to be upset because blood atonement is not being performed. God is saying, "look you are not innocent, but are sinful since Adam and full of wickedness."
"An oracle concerning Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them. "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—brother will fight against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists. I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master, and a fierce king will rule over them," declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry. The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and rushes will wither, also the plants along the Nile, at the mouth of the river. Every sown field along the Nile will become parched, will blow away and be no more. The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away. Those who work with combed flax will despair, the weavers of fine linen will lose hope. The workers in cloth will be dejected, and all the wage earners will be sick at heart. The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools; the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice. How can you say to Pharaoh, "I am one of the wise men, a disciple of the ancient kings"? Where are your wise men now? Let them show you and make known what the LORD Almighty has planned against Egypt. The officials of Zoan have become fools, the leaders of Memphis are deceived; the cornerstones of her peoples have led Egypt astray. The LORD has poured into them a spirit of dizziness; they make Egypt stagger in all that she does, as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit. There is nothing Egypt can do—head or tail, palm branch or reed. In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them. And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the LORD Almighty is planning against them. In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD Almighty. One of them will be called the City of Destruction. In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them. The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them. In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance." Isaiah 19:1-25 (NIV)
The above says that God will curse Egypt, their leaders are bankrupt in their leadership, and God will send them a savior because they set up an alter to the Lord in the Center of Egypt. The Egyptians will honor God with their sacrifices and God will bring together Egypt, Assyria, and Israel together in context of his will made known to man.
"The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand." Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah! "The multitude of your sacrifices—what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her—but now murderers! Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water. Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves;
they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them. Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: "Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish. "You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks in which you have delighted; you will be disgraced because of the gardens that you have chosen. You will be like an oak with fading leaves, like a garden without water. The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." Isaiah 1:1-31 (NIV)
The point in the above passage is that Israel is rebellious despite how much God has punished her, so he looks at her sacrifices as detestable. God thus says that they should turn form their evil ways and that God will wash away their sins. God thus will purify Israel, restore Israel, and destroy the wicked.
The point in all of the above scripture is that God set up the practice of blood atonement as Holy, but it is not God’s purpose to implement blood atonement to increase or multiply sin. The point thus is that for Jesus to forgive sins as God he needed to fulfill all righteousness through blood atonement, but the blood atonement of Christ is not provided to give the devil a way into heaven or for that matter any such children of darkness.
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
Christ did pray that all the believers be one just as he and the father are one, and I do believe for the most part that people that believe in Christ firmly are able to recognize each other. I think the problem occurs when churches promote denominational doctrine in place of the gospel of God. Overall, I thus can see some value in covenant theology, but like many things people take something that is godly and manage to make it into something that is evil.
Let us consider how the Tower of Babble differed from temple worship and the work of Christ on the earth. First of all, the Tower of Babble was man’s attempt to reach God whereas the temple was given to man in terms of its plans prior to being built. With the Tower of Babble, people wanted to either to be like God or they wanted to be God and some may have even believed themselves to be Gods. With the temple, people knew that God’s presence resided inside, and so everyone knew that God basically set up his throne among man so that an entire nation firstly and other nations secondly could both recognize God to be greater than themselves and approach God.
The Tower of Babble was an attempt to look for something Holy such as an experience of heaven or an experience of God. When Christ appeared on the Earth, most everyone was not looking for him except for those whom studied and observed signs from God, and as a result God showed himself to people. The Tower of Babble may have been an attempt to allow for some to have more power over others because not everyone could be on top of the tower at all times whereas the crucifixion of Christ showed that God himself allowed wicked man to have power over him until death and even at the cost of public ridicule. If the Tower of Babble had been built, then it would have given kings power for whoever controlled the tower would have the power. Christ however was crowned king of the Jews with a crown of suffering for his people’s sake, and with open arms Christ said on the cross, "Farther forgive them for they know not what they do."
The problem that the church encountered is that toward the end of its days as being one undivided collection of believers what happened, I believe, is that the organization of the church worked on developing a Tower of Babble, so God caused them to fracture and he broke them apart. Many people try to build their own little towers these days with fragments of the original, but that only results in the same fracturing and division. Overall, Christ work on the earth in his physical ministry was not about building a tower to reach God because Christ is God and he came to people and appeared while no one recognized him.
The message of the birth of Christ is that God came to us, and we did not have to build a tower to him to reach God. The message of the death of Christ is that God was not on top of a tower that people built to reach him, but instead God was on top of a cross that people made to shame and reject him because they hated him. The message of the resurrection of Christ is that despite every attempt for man to shun him, kill him, and utterly turn their backs from him Christ rose from the dead and sits as king over all the earth ruling; moreover, this is just the opposite message as that of the fans of tower building.
When you are like Saul looking to have Christians killed and looking to build for yourself a mighty tower to reach God, it is then that God breaks that tower, appears, and shows himself. When you are preparing that Sunday sermon about baptism while drawing together all your resources to prove yourself right, it is then that the mighty tower is built. If God did not destroy the mighty towers that men build to reach him, then people would not realize that God is not to be approached with a mighty tower. In fact because of the gospel we do not approach God, but instead God approaches us.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Agbasoga Ojirika
Agbasoga Ojirika
mmo...@essex1.com
Amen! The truth has been revealed in so few words.
------- Original Message -------From : Agbasoga Ojirika[mailto:agba...@gmail.com]
Sent : 8/31/2009 3:45:46 PM
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Jesus healed a man and paid the price for it latter. In fact God forgave sins by animal sacrifice all along and paid the price for it latter. The price that God paid for sins was the cross, and this was the purchase of men paid by the Son to the Father through the blood of Christ offered by Christ as High Priest. This is how Christ was crowned king is Jerusalem with a crown of suffering, and now Jesus rains over all the earth.
Not only that but note that when the "eye for an eye" is given it is given in the context of rendering justice in quart, and this should always be upheld. Not only that but when Jesus spoke regarding this he told people, and I paraphrase, that you have been told an eye for an eye, but I tell you. In other words Jesus was not casting quart rule out, but instead he was instructing people individually not to take the example of quart justice for their own personal way of handing things. In other words people should individually turn the other cheek, but if you are charged to be a judge in quart, then you must render an eye for an eye.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
To : jesus-th...@googlegroups.com
Cc :
Subject : RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: THE PERSONAL PARABLE - The Meaning of Our Lives
Hello,
The problem is Peter that if I took on your argument seriously from the standpoint of someone who would take it as a biblical based argument, then I would have to go outside the context of the scripture. The scripture says that their is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and for me to take on your argument specifically that says that Jesus did not have to die but instead would forgive people anyway then I would ether have to abandon scripture or I would have to admit that your argument just is not founded in scripture and as a result is something that scripture would never talk about specifically. I take the case that your argument is something that scripture just would never talk about specifically because scripture teaches blood atonement, and thus your argument is perhaps impossible for someone to believe in whom believes that scripture is infallible.
The places that scripture would perhaps talk about your argument generally is cases such as that of teachings generated from man and not from God. In that case we are warned not to espouse such teachings less the cross be robbed of its power. I am afraid that your argument has the potential of robbing the cross of its power if people believe in it.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
> Peter’s entire case as I will summarize is that free will predominates
> everything, Jesus Christ did not have to be killed on the cross, blood
> atonement (specifically the blood of Jesus paying for our sins) to him is
> morally and spiritually apprehensible. Peter is also against many of the
> biblical practices of the ancient Hebrews being applied today. Overall,
> Peter’s aggressive tone comes from his desire to go against evil (as he
> understands it) directly and attack it.
>
> The value in many enthusiasts like Peter is that they make dialog before a
> world audience, and this allows for the possibility that the truth will come
> forward even if none of us individually are correct.
>
> Yes however I can understand your concerns regarding Peter.
>
> Sent : 8/28/2009 4:29:18 PM
Peter VanGee
ON EARTH Ministries
This is what it all boils down to, isn't it?
i agree with Brother Peter in the fact that we are called on by a new
covenant to be held to a new higher standard, and that we, as members
of this covenant, are to "bind and loose", as the rabbinical
tradition. However, "With great power comes great responsibility", as
the pop-culture allegory states. To argue whether or not Jesus 'had
to' die for our sins to be forgiven, is kind of like arguing whether
or not Jesus could have done 50% more miricles if he had a third arm.
it just seems like an adolecent trying to win an arguement to me.
but, i am over fifty, and much of this kind of turmoil seems
extraineous.
i also think we could all stand to read a little more Isaiah, and
think Brother Mathew made clear some very defining points with his
reiteration. i have used the first passage as part of the New Exodus
theology i find myself preaching.
but i reiterate MY point:
transcends the earthly. I find it ironic that you use that example.
Do you believe that he came to cause this kind of confusion and
division among his own followers? Do you think that perhaps his own
message was meant to be self-divisive? Do you believe that he was
making a new agreement, or Covenant of scandalous inclusiveness,
revolutionary continuity, and absolute, unconditional, unilateral love
and surrender? Are we left to reconcile in our minds, what can only
possibly be known in our hearts?
contribute? what is it that says 'love' that we are displaying here?
mmo...@essex1.com
Mathew: Jesus forgave sins and still does because of his work on the cross; moreover, God forgave sins in advance prior to giving his sacrifice for sins.
Mathew: "May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice." (NIV) Key word hear is like.
Mathew: It was not wicked men that gave the sacrifice of Christ to be atoned for their sins, but instead God gave his own sacrifice to man to atone for sins. God gave himself.
Mathew: God does not always do what is pleasing to himself, but instead the scripture records that he often enduring much hardship as he did on the cross and thus the point of the cross.
mmo...@essex1.com
God is no thief for he owns everything and always has. Heaven is his resting place and the earth is his footstool. The only way that darkness dwells is by God withdrawing himself; moreover, this is the way that darkness can exist among light.
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Paid a price for it later? So healing the man was a sin? Oh, what a tangled web we weave?
Hello,
Jesus healed a man and paid the price for it latter. In fact God forgave sins by animal sacrifice all along and paid the price for it latter. The price that God paid for sins was the cross, and this was the purchase of men paid by the Son to the Father through the blood of Christ offered by Christ as High Priest. This is how Christ was crowned king is Jerusalem with a crown of suffering, and now Jesus rains over all the earth.
Not only that but note that when the "eye for an eye" is given it is given in the context of rendering justice in quart, and this should always be upheld. Not only that but when Jesus spoke regarding this he told people, and I paraphrase, that you have been told an eye for an eye, but I tell you. In other words Jesus was not casting quart rule out, but instead he was instructing people individually not to take the example of quart justice for their own personal way of handing things. In other words people should individually turn the other cheek, but if you are charged to be a judge in quart, then you must render an eye for an eye.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter VanGee
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor.
A year acceptable to the Lord is the sacrifice, I'd argue, that Jesus made. Sure he layed down his life, and no one took it from him. But they didn't have to kill him.
Know the Lord,
Pete
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I understand that the understanding that people have and their approach to life may differ much by their experiences, so let me share with you some of my experiences.
For twenty years from child birth onward I went to the wrong church, and the reason why my parents went to that church is because out of all the churches that they went to they felt that it was the most loving church in the entire community. Besides the fact my mother had generations of ancestry that went to that same church, and she felt that it was a good thing that she continue going in her generation.
At the church many of the ministry felt that the bible was full of errors as they explained almost constantly this proposition, and the church was in favor of bringing about the kingdom of God on earth by making peace with all people. In fact one of the ministers was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, and many members had several homes and lived in something like a state of harmony with one another. Everyone in the community for the most part praised most of the members as being almost like Christ himself doing his work.
One particular member who became the Pastor over the entire church lived in a house that was so large by a main part of town that the house was almost the size of a small school with apartments attached to the back of the building. She taught that everyone that believes in God is a child of God despite if that person believes in the Christian God or not; moreover, she was a Unitarian. This woman like all other people in the church would flee controversy whenever anything would be said that would sound like a teaching that would result in disharmony, and as a result she like everyone else did not read the scripture because it would lead people to disagreement.
The lack of knowledge of the scripture in this church despite its many ministers was extraordinary, and not only that but whenever scripture was spoken from the pulpit it was always the same verses about peace such as, "the Lion will way down with the Lamb." The most knowledgeable minister in the entire congregation had a claim to fame that he read the entire bible once. Overall, all the time that I went to this church before I became a Christian I do not think that I realized that I was a atheist and God hater; moreover, I was taught that Jesus is just a man and that if I ever committed a sin after baptism that I would loose my salvation.
I never became baptized in that church because I realized that I could not stop sinning, and I did not want to loose my salvation. When I became a Christian, I went to the home of this woman who latter became pastor of the entire church and I explained the entire scripture as best as I could to her husband who was also a minister of that same church and he believed. Overall, the woman eventually told me not to speak about the scripture again in her home, and her husband continued to promote the message of the scripture to her.
Not only that but during much of this time that I went to this woman’s home I also affirmed biblical messages in front of the entire congregation during times of testimony displaying God’s hatred for evil. This idea that God hates something was foreign to the congregation because they believed that God was so loving that he could not hate anything, and they also did not believe in the fall of man but instead believed that man was born without sin from birth. Overall, once the people in the congregation felt that I was being called to ministry even though I had not yet been baptized, I left the church and continued being instructed about the scripture by a college instructor over the six years that I knew him (he was a Sunday school teacher in a church of over a thousand members who was unhappy with the shape of Christianity in the community).
For a long time after I stopped going to the church that I had been going to since early childhood I no longer attended any church for years because many of the other churches in my rather wealthy community had similar ways about them because the church that I went to shaped the community; moreover, I must note at this point that it was only me, my family, and my dwelling away from the church that I went to that was very poor for the most part. Regardless of the fact that I did not attend Church anyplace for a long time I never stopped speaking to people about Jesus Christ, and I did not stop being personally mentored by that particular college instructor for the total of six years.
Prior to leaving for a University away from my community college it is that time that I got denied access to a seminary school, and instead met with a person who identified himself as a retired Bishop who was from my community whom baptized me and latter ordained me. Even though this man eventually is believed to have committed suicide after many years of having collected money and resources from my family and many others due to his constant asking for his financial needs to be fulfilled, this was the best person that I knew of in my community that I had met that would act as a Christian leader endorsing the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Although this man showed himself thought out time to have limited understanding of the scripture and other such things as well as being the most wicked person that I may ever know, he stated his belief that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost something that I knew not one other Church minister who operated a church organization to do in my community for the most part.
After having dealt with several church related groups when I went away to a secular University, and after now having both a firm understanding of scripture and faith I now realize that this community that I am in that I had to return to after going to school is for the most part spiritually dead with the exception of a few churches that have over a thousand people. Those large evangelical churches often teach people principles of how to live and not who God is, and not only that but also those churches often do not promote the doctrine of the Trinity; moreover, many of them see salvation to be something that people themselves do by accepting the easy message that the church gives. Overall, my point in all of this is that the evil that I am talking about is so incredible that it is amazing that God has not destroyed all of this already.
When I went away to the secular University after attending the community college in my community, I tried desperately to connect to every Christian that I found. It was in this time that I really matured, started Jesus on the Web, and began working on my ministry seriously. I found that many people of many denominations all had been Christian brothers and sisters, but many reasoned about their faith differently.
When I returned to this community after having gone away to school and after having attended a non credit seminary school provided by Bishop Gentry who had his base of operations by my University, I was hired at a local lumber yard. This local lumber yard hired me, and was the only business that would hire me; moreover, they hired me because I knew from early youth a woman who worked their for several years whom had a different mate sometimes every night, and sadly despite the hopes of my mother and I she has not changed greatly. This employment opportunity made indications that in four years I would be making a six digit income, but as soon as the store manager found that the reason why I went to college was because of Christianity he said that it is kind of like I went to school for brain surgery and then decided that I wanted to be an accountant. Overall, I was soon terminated from my position at the store and was told that the reason why is because I was hired into a Management Training program and no potential existed for promotion and thus according to the Store Manager he had no reason to continue with my employment since I would not be promoted into the position that I was being trained for namely that of a manager in preparation for upper level management.
My point in all of this is that today all kinds of people exist that are wicked, and many people say that they are Christian when it sounds good but the truth of the matter is that we are in some very wicked times. An illusion exists all around us that if we just reach out to each other and join hands under one message under one leader that we will have true prosperity and salvation, and this message is that if we just love each other then we will be able to bring about the kingdom of God and live in it. It is like people are saying that if we just forget God because he has been away for a long time, then we can just listen to the ‘man he left in charge’ and help build that golden calf, and if we all do our part then we will have a God of gold that we will be able to worship. That is right we are told that if we just put aside our differences then we will be able to build that mighty tower that reaches to heaven in brotherly love, and everyone will be able to help contribute in building that tower to reach out to whatever God we so desire to seek.
The truth is however that faith comes from God and from God along, and this is the entire point in the birth of Christ. We must be taught not by man but by Christ himself, and this is way he is confessed to be teacher even if those who confess him to be teacher do so mockingly. We must be ruled by Christ because he is king over all the earth crowned with a crown of suffering in Jerusalem even if those whom crowned him crowned him mockingly, and we must aspire to understand our inheritance and the message of the Holy Ghost that leads us into all truth that was poured out upon us abundantly as a result of the resurrection of Christ to his throne in heaven.
By the way I now have employment that pays a small fraction of what I was paid before but I work with one woman whom appears to have a strong grasp of theology, and I work with another woman whom believes like I that evangelism is everyone’s responsibility. Sadly I have to leave home an hour before work to get to work in time because my place of business is so far away, and not only that but in order to continue any reasonable lifestyle I will eventually have to go back to school or get a more permanent position. My point is that just about everyone can be wealthy in this life and everyone can live in harmony with their neighbors and love everyone, but all of that is often an illusion and that love is not truly love for our God. Not only that but the church that I attend in order that I may be able to attend a Church in my community preaches acceptance of all kinds of people (this I am concerned with), and the church preaches principles about how to live a good life and how to be a good Christian (this I am even more concerned with).
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Agbasoga Ojirika
I will also show you where the Bible says that God IS pleased with his death. Please read Phil 2:5-11. note somewhere it says therefore which means that the reason that God exalted him, because he humbled himself in all these ways.
Also you say that Pilate and co were not doing it from a pure heart, however, you find from my excerpt that it was Jesus who offered the sacrifice he himself being the priest and offering.
God bless us all,
Agbasoga
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Are you saying that Jesus could have laid down his life by perhaps being killed in the process of saving someone, and that this could have happened without the need for Jesus to have been killed by man?
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
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Stoneracket
humbly offer the following:
1. Why Christ Had To Die
http://bryanmistele.com/articles/Why%20Christ%20Had%20to%20Die.DOC
2. Predestination Or Free Will?
http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP039/
Peace!
>^..^<
Peter VanGee
To Larry and all those who are annoyed by our argument:
Peter VanGee
mmo...@essex1.com
Peter,
You said that you do not believe in blood atonement, the necessity of Christ crucifixion, and other such things. This is not simply a dispute over words; moreover, this is a real issue. If Christ didn’t shed his blood for you then how are you saved and how will you be saved.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
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ON EARTH Ministries
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
The second bishop that I studied under was of the opinion that the truth needed no justification and what he intended by that is that he spoke the truth and people had to believe whatever he said without the necessity for reason. This man would shy away from explanation, and the result was that his congregation appeared to have little understanding of the scripture. This man had to doctorate degrees, and my understanding is that he lost his entire flock by now.
For this type of reason not only do I affirm the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well as the content of the scripture, but I also am willing to explain this message even to those who firmly do not believe in it. This means that I will affirm the necessity of the birth of Christ, the necessity of the death of Christ, and the necessity of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe to some extent my work on Jesus on the Web has done all three.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
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mmo...@essex1.com
ON EARTH Ministries
drive-by theology. Besides for 2 Timothy, I had also thought about
scripture regarding “peacemakers”, reconciliation before we come
before the judge, or just general quality of behavior lessons taught
by Jesus.
But, I am also humbly aware of my own shortcomings, and am trying to
avoid hypocrisy. You might recall my comment about trying to avoid
using the Bible as some sort of Dungeons & Dragons Manual (tomes of
intricate rules for a fantasy role playing game which appeals to fans
of myths and statistics). For me, the truth of the “living word” is
in it’s meaning, and our ability to keep it alive, fresh, and
immediate. My goal is to preach the good news of living by the spirit
of it, and not dying by the letter of the law. We are being called on
to live a life set apart by who we are and how we behave. We are all
broken, sinful creatures, but we have potential. And, I believe, that
potential is realized by our being made perfect in Christ. In fact,
he said, “Be perfect.” He didn’t say “Be right”, “Be correct”, or “Be
smart”. He said “Be perfect”. He didn’t say “Be a winner”, or “Be
strong”. He told us to be perfect by loosing our lives, surrendering,
and giving until we have nothing. That’s when we’ll begin to see the
miracle of the Kingdom.
And now, I will contradict myself by quoting pieces of scripture,
rather than assimilating it and presenting it. (Chuckle)
This is to get back to the question I keep asking over and over:
Are we left to reconcile in our minds, what can only possibly be known
in our hearts?
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise;
God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He
chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the
things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one
may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ
Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our
righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is
written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”
- 1 Corinthians 1:27 - 31
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not
the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to
nothing. 7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has
been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they
would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is
written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”a—
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For
who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit
within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except
the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world
but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has
freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by
human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual
truths in spiritual words.b 14 The man without the Spirit does not
accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all
things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:
16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?”c
But we have the mind of Christ.
3 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as
worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food,
for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling
among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
- 1 Corinthians 2:6 – 3:3
18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by
the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may
become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s
sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”a;
20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are
futile.”
- 1 Corinthians 3:18 - 20
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
I believe that vast value exists in the reading of the scripture, and I believe that this value is especially known when we investigate scripture that is usually ignored. As a result, I will give my commentary of Song of Solomon Chapter 5 for all to ponder what the Holy Ghost says to the church in regard to this matter. Also I am doing this so as to dispel any notion that we are like Star Track fans.
Song of Solomon 5
Lover
1 I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
I have gathered my myrrh with my spice.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
I have drunk my wine and my milk. (NIV)
< Verse one shows that Christ comes to his bride (the New Jerusalem) and that it is a garden of good stuff (fruits of the spirit produced by the saints) that he eats and delights in. >
Friends
Eat, O friends, and drink;
drink your fill, O lovers. (NIV)
< Christ not only consumes the fruits of the spirit produced by God’s people, but he also offers these fruits to others. >
Beloved
2 I slept but my heart was awake.
Listen! My lover is knocking:
"Open to me, my sister, my darling,
my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
my hair with the dampness of the night." (NIV)
< Verse two shows the church in its slumber, and it shows the desires of Christ to produce children of God through the Church. >
3 I have taken off my robe—
must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
must I soil them again? (NIV)
< Verse three shows how Christ shows his inner most parts to those whom he has chosen, and it also shows how his work on earth has prepared him for conceiving children of God. >
4 My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
my heart began to pound for him. (NIV)
< Verse four shows the intimacy, excitement, and thrill expressed by God’s people being stimulated by Christ interaction with them. >
5 I arose to open for my lover,
and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
on the handles of the lock. (NIV)
< Verse five shows the outward flow of love and pleasure form God’s people for Christ’s affection and interaction. >
6 I opened for my lover,
but my lover had left; he was gone.
My heart sank at his departure.
I looked for him but did not find him.
I called him but he did not answer. (NIV)
< The point in verse six is that his people had been hoping for the consummation of the marriage of the New Jerusalem and Christ, but when Jesus rose from the dead he went away from his people for a time. >
7 The watchmen found me
as they made their rounds in the city.
They beat me, they bruised me;
they took away my cloak,
those watchmen of the walls! (NIV)
< Verse seven shows how the Jews striped the power and seriously harmed the early Jerusalem Church. >
8 O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you—
if you find my lover,
what will you tell him?
Tell him I am faint with love. (NIV)
< Verse eight is a request to communicate to Christ that his people are in immediate desire for his return. >
Friends9 How is your beloved better than others,
most beautiful of women?
How is your beloved better than others,
that you charge us so? (NIV)
< Verse nine shows that no love is greater than God’s love for his people. >
Beloved10 My lover is radiant and ruddy,
outstanding among ten thousand. (NIV)
< Verse ten shows that Christ is in stark contrast to the world and everything else for those whom love him. >
11 His head is purest gold;
his hair is wavy
and black as a raven. (NIV)
< Verse eleven shows that Christ’s appearance radiates with the glory of God. >
12 His eyes are like doves
by the water streams,
washed in milk,
mounted like jewels. (NIV)
< Verse twelve shows God’s people admiring the qualities related to Christ’s vision. >
13 His cheeks are like beds of spice
yielding perfume.
His lips are like lilies
dripping with myrrh. (NIV)
< Verse thirteen shows God’s people admiring Christ’s instrument for communicating God’s truth to his people. >
14 His arms are rods of gold
set with chrysolite.
His body is like polished ivory
decorated with sapphires. (NIV)
< Verse fourteen shows God’s people admiring Christ’s body and arms, and this is what Christ uses to do his work throughout the world. This is the Church that reaches out to perform the work of God in the world. >
15 His legs are pillars of marble
set on bases of pure gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as its cedars. (NIV)
< Verse fifteen shows God’s people admiring Christ’s legs, and this is what God uses for Christ to move to various location in the world to do his work. This is the work of the evangelists, and especially the work of the ‘bases of pure gold’ namely those who send out the evangelists. >
16 His mouth is sweetness itself;
he is altogether lovely.
This is my lover, this my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem. (NIV)
< Above all else God’s people admire Christ’s communication to them or his words, and with that they admire him as their bride groom and friend. >
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
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ON EARTH Ministries
scripture. And you, certainly, seem to be one of the rare birds who
are both academically emersed and also able to understand, interpret,
express the meaning that lies within.
AND, i am VERY excited that you decided to share with us your
understanding of The Song of Songs!!!! This and Revelations are the
two books i meant to ask you about once we all seemed to get debating
debating Peter's contentions!
mmo...@essex1.com
Hello,
Today the problems that I see with people and their readings of scripture is that many are vary superficial because of their strong desire to only listen to a literal understanding of scripture. Many others are willing to read scripture in depth, but they may believe that we are unable to have any type of relationship with God and they may replace those whom are filled with the Holy Ghost who read scripture with academic theologians whom know the scripture only through intensive study of theology. Yet others see the scripture as full of errors, and they use it for making their own systems of theology. Yet others are able to read the scripture and understand it by the power of the Holy Ghost, but their prior church taught theological dispositions can cause them to not understand basic orthodox theology such as the Trinity.
The way I believe that people should approach scripture is that they should recognize that scripture is not God and it can not save anyone because only God saves. Scripture can not teach us the truth because only God can teach us the truth. Scripture can not do much of anything but be a book that sits on a shelf, so God has to do the rest. Overall, God can however use scripture as an instrument or vehicle for showing himself to people, and when God shows himself to people by use of scripture we can be clear about whom and what God is as well as his will and intentions.
Thank you,
Mathew Enoch Mount
mmo...@essex1.com
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