Where can a Janko (etc.) keyboard be purchased and for how much?

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Corky Peavy

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Apr 11, 2016, 3:44:23 AM4/11/16
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I'm building one, because it's the cheapest option I've found by far.   Can that really be true?

Joseph Austin

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Apr 11, 2016, 9:38:04 PM4/11/16
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Corky,
You can buy a Chromatone on-line:
 http://www.chromatone.jp/online-shop/outlet_en.html
Personally, I've found the reliability to be poor--keys stop working after a few months.
[If you're interested in a used one, contact me directly.]

At the other end of the price spectrum: 
http://www.reinert.eu/en/instruments/janko-instruments.html
(I haven't tried them myself.)

You might want to contact Lippens and see if you can try one of theirs.

Paul Vandervoort (Daskin) has built a couple but to my knowledge is not yet "mass producing" them.

For a better answer re building your own, you might check this group:

Omar Soriano

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Apr 13, 2016, 4:49:58 AM4/13/16
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Conversely, I have found the quality of the Chromatone to be excellent, playing it daily for almost two years now with no problem.

I think Joe unfortunately just got stuck with a bad unit, which is a shame, cause I know how long and hard he contemplated getting one (and I encouraged him).

Joe, did you ever try asking Chromatone/ Muto for a replacement unit?

Corky Peavy

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Apr 13, 2016, 5:01:27 AM4/13/16
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Thanks yall!

Since it's North of $800, I think I'll go ahead and do my little conversion experiment.

Anyone care to offer opinions about what might work best?  Full size keys vs little chromatone type?  How much height offset between rows?  Tactile markings so you can find your position w/o looking?  Colors, or note names or some other notation?  Something else? 

I'll also post this question on the site you suggested Joe.

gguitarwilly

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Apr 13, 2016, 4:13:25 PM4/13/16
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Hi Corky,

I did a conversion of a melodica. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0crWRRDncHk but got the idea from someone who did the same with a midi controller keyboard.
Should you try this option (which is the easiest to my knowledge), there are some things you might want to consider:
- janko octave span ideally is no wider than 12, 5 or 13 cm. with that span, you may grab tenths, which is a great option, but hardly possible when converting a piano keyboard midi controller. So your midi controller should have really narrow keys, because your janko conversion will have the same octave span.
- you will also need a bit of key resistance. if that is to weak, the weight of your janko keys might leave no key resistance at all.
- the easiest option I can think of is using lego (and glue). http://monxmood.free.fr/images/lego.html
- you can also try to adapt an acoustic piano, which, in the end, might leave you a happier janko player. I'm currently converting a piano, but I expect it will take me at least a year to complete the operation.

good luck! Willem

Op woensdag 13 april 2016 07:01:27 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

Omar Soriano

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Apr 13, 2016, 4:18:01 PM4/13/16
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There's a whole thread in this group dedicated to different coloring options.

Corky Peavy

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Apr 13, 2016, 6:29:03 PM4/13/16
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First, thanks for posting that video!  I was in the process of trying to visualize how to do that and really struggling to wrap my head around it when I found your video and it helped convince me it could be done.   

Thanks for the other great suggestions too.   I *am* concerned about weight.  If this fails, I may try with balsa, or try to add resistance with foam below the keys.   

I did not realize the overall octaves were narrower on Janko.   Could you explain a little more what you meant by 12, 5, or 13 cm?   I'm kinda on my way now, but if this "basically works" I think this may not be the last time I do it.   

I'm also really concerned about the height of the structure making things really fragile.  That is a pretty big vertical lever on top of the keys that can twist them left and right.  How did that work out for you?


On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5, Corky Peavy wrote:

Doug Keislar

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Apr 13, 2016, 7:55:10 PM4/13/16
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Re: "Could you explain a little more what you meant by 12, 5, or 13 cm?"
I believe he was using European notation, with a comma for the decimal point.  In American usage, 12.5 or 13 cm.

Joseph Austin

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Apr 14, 2016, 12:08:49 AM4/14/16
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I could, if I pay the $200 shipping both ways, which is over half the price of the instrument. Then I still have no guarantee the replacement will be any better.

I knew I was taking a chance, but there didn't seem to be any better options at the time. (Recall I had even tried converting Axis-49).
At this point, I've learned two things:

1. Learning to play the Janko is not "dramatically easier" than learning traditional piano, at least for a beginner.  Even if you already know piano, it's like learning a new instrument.  In my opinion, it's actually harder than "beginning piano" in the key of C.  
On the other hand, I think learning Janko is a better way to learn--you learn to think "musically" instead of "instrumentally."  But "better" doesn't necessarily translate to "easier."

2. The Chromatone version of Janko is not pleasant to play.
It sounds bad and feels bad, to me anyway.
The "sounds bad" can be fixed by investing in an alternative midi synth (if you don't already have one), but that's more money, and another set of controls to wrestle with.

Again, this is just my opinion. "Your mileage may vary."

Corky Peavy

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Apr 14, 2016, 6:41:52 AM4/14/16
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Joe you mention that you did not find the chromatone pleasant - and you meant more than just the sound, but the feel I think.   Since I'm still building (just came in from the shop) I have options.   What was wrong, how should it be from your point of view?

One trade off I'll have to make is 4 rows with smaller keys, or 3 with bigger keys.  With 4 rows the travel distance variance and force to press required is pretty dramatic between top and bottom row.  I notice the chromatone has very small keys.   I'm trying to make my keys about the size of the bottom of white keys on a normal piano.   


On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5, Corky Peavy wrote:

gguitarwilly

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Apr 14, 2016, 7:29:32 AM4/14/16
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Hi Corky,

I read your other message also: I strongly suggest you use four rows instead of three. I've been playing janko for more than a year now, and I have concluded five rows or even six is desireable. 
some chord positions use three rows; transpose up and you're on the fourth row. If you want to start a musical line downward (right hand) and your pinky is already on the fourth row, you need a fifth row to start your line.
Octave width is 5 inches, measured from left side key to left side next same key up an octave .
I have no trouble with the solidity of the upper keys. but since they're close to the pivot of the key, more pressure, and even a slightly inward pushing motion is required.
You might want to try converting a melodica first, since you'll be gaining experience, and in the worst case only a 40 dollar instrument is ruined.
Or use strong double sided tape to attach a few prototype keys before you start for real. You'll have to check the minimum vertical distance between rows to make sure that the keys of adjacent rows do not touch when played.
One tip: do not try to saw the upright wooden parts 'freehand'. You'll need a mitre saw or a fixed guide to make all angles exactly the same.

Willem

Op woensdag 13 april 2016 20:29:03 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

Joseph Austin

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Apr 14, 2016, 2:51:14 PM4/14/16
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I'm trying this reply by email; let's see if it posts.
[looks like it posted OK after I changed the To address from the author to the Janko-Chromatone group.]

Re pleasant feel: I don't like the rounded, ridge-sided typewriter-like keys.
At minimum, bevel the edges; even better, make the keys more rectangular (longer).

Re rows: The more, the better!
I use all six rows of my chromatone.  This may be partly because the keys are so short.
You may know that Lippens originally planned 4 rows but now they are shipping 5.

Hold your hand in a L with middle finger up and thumb pointing sideways.
Measure the vertical height of the L. That is effectively your "row" reach. How many "rows" does that make?

To even out key pressure front-to-back,  
you could use a "parallelogram" action, as in Lippens, 
or a long lever, as in acoustic piano, 
instead of a short lever.
Cheap electronic keyboards tend to hinge the keys at the fall-board and fill the top with buttons.
I'd prefer to put the key hinge well back of the fall-board, extend the fall-board up vertically and put the control buttons there, as on an organ,
and bring the music rack forward to the fall-board and up to eye level. But that could add to the cost, and the package dimensions.

Joe

On Apr 14, 2016, at 2:41 AM, Corky Peavy  wrote:

Joe you mention that you did not find the chromatone pleasant - and you meant more than just the sound, but the feel I think.   Since I'm still building (just came in from the shop) I have options.   What was wrong, how should it be from your point of view? With 4 rows the travel distance variance and force to press required is pretty dramatic between top and bottom row.  I notice the chromatone has very small keys.   I'm trying to make my keys about the size of the bottom of white keys on a normal piano.   

Corky Peavy

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Apr 20, 2016, 11:16:27 PM4/20/16
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Well, I built it, now on the the adventure of seeing if I can learn to play music on it.   





On Sunday, April 10, 2016 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5, Corky Peavy wrote:

gguitarwilly

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Apr 21, 2016, 7:29:17 AM4/21/16
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Hi Corky,

Great job! 
You show that anyone can make himself a Janko layout keyboard without having to spend a lot of money. And you did it in what, one week?
I see that you chose to keep all keys in one plane. I'm curious to hear of your experience playing the keyboard.

have fun! Willem

Op donderdag 21 april 2016 01:16:27 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

Corky Peavy

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Apr 21, 2016, 7:11:48 PM4/21/16
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Yes, about a week - lots and lots of hours, perhaps 40 - 50?   If I were to do it again, I could do it in 1/3 the time easily.   I was even thinking if there were enough interest I could make a kit with all the parts pre-cut and detailed instructions.  I wonder how I might gauge the interest level w/o building a bunch and offering them for sale.  With a kit anyone handy could cheaply build one with about 4 hours work.  That in turn might lead to enough people getting to use Jankos to make a little revolution.   Right now there is no way to get any mass of users.

Yes, I used a small step size between rows because that is how Paul V's looked, and I thought his was probably fairly "ideal".  Now that I have it though, I see that the bottom row needs to be a little lower because a thumb playing on the 2nd row depresses the keys on the bottom row a little.   It's not a problem on higher rows because the travel distance is less up there.   So I might change it slightly.   

The other reason I did it that way was to try and keep the upright blocks as short as possible to decrease left / right wobble.  Even so, the wobble is significant and a little unnerving, but I'm learning to just ignore it.

I put a lot of effort into getting the top row as far down the keys as possible so it would not be too stiff to play.   It's playable but the difference between top and bottom is pretty large.

I wonder if the key tops should have been wider, shrug, it does not seem to be hurting anything.

gguitarwilly

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Apr 21, 2016, 8:26:32 PM4/21/16
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Hi Corky,

Funny your adapters should wobble. They look pretty solid. The adapters on my melodica are way higher, but no wobbling there. Is it the keyboard keys themselves that are moving maybe? 
Don't worry about the 'small' keys: mine (on my Vandervoort piggyback) also have a lot of room in between. Since they are pretty narrow this is an advantage, offering a lot of space for your fingers, or a diagonally placed thumb.
the stiff feel of the upper row is a consequence of your construction. In a new project you might want to move all rows outward, but then the outer row will hardly have any resistance.
About offering a 'conversion kit': why not start 'on demand'? But you may want to perfect your design first. And it would be interesting to try and find a midi controller with a reasonable touch and really narrow keys, if such a thing exists. you could then customize your kit to fit that, so that octave span would be narrow.
By the way: will you be able to get the first row keys of for lowering them?

Willem



Op donderdag 21 april 2016 21:11:48 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

Doug Keislar

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Apr 21, 2016, 8:43:30 PM4/21/16
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Hi Corky,

Congrats on finishing that project!  It will be interesting to hear about your experience.

It looks like you built it on top of a Yamaha PSR-220, which has full-size keys, correct?
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/digitalkeyboards/portable_keyboards/psr220/

And I assume your new keyboard has exactly the same octave span as the keyboard underneath (otherwise it would have required a more complicated mechanism, like Vandervoort's old piggyback keyboard, which Willem owns).

One of the significant advantages of the original Janko design is its reduced octave span, allowing people to reach larger intervals comfortably.  So if you're going to make a kit, you might want to consider offering one that has smaller keys, suitable for fastening to an underlying keyboard that has less-than-full-size keys.  Such keyboard instruments also are cheaper.  But I don't know offhand if there is one that happens to have an octave span close to the original Janko's and also enough octaves to be musically satisfactory (as well as MIDI output)...  Anyone know?  Unfortunately, if the underlying keyboard has less-than-full-size keys, they will not only be narrower but also shorter, making it harder to fit enough Janko rows on top of them.  Hmm.  Maybe that's not a great solution after all...

Doug

Doug Keislar

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Apr 21, 2016, 8:45:43 PM4/21/16
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Oh, my post crossed with Willem's.  Similar point, though!

Paul Vandervoort

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Apr 22, 2016, 2:06:02 AM4/22/16
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Corky-

Congrats on your new keyboard!

Doug asked about short-octave keyboards.  Here are two:
There may be others I don't know about.

Paul V.

Corky Peavy

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:18:11 AM4/22/16
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Funny your adapters should wobble. They look pretty solid. The adapters on my melodica are way higher, but no wobbling there. Is it the keyboard keys themselves that are moving maybe?



Yes, now that I look at it, it’s the underlying keyboard.   I got two very similar keyboards off Craig’s List very cheaply to play with.  I thought they were almost identical, but I see now that the one I actually used has much less stable keys.   




The stiff feel of the upper row is a consequence of your construction. In a new project you might want to move all rows outward, but then the outer row will hardly have any resistance.


Right, I tried to do several things to make this manageable, with “enough” but still not wonderful success.  I made the keys a little shorter than I wanted, and I moved the bottom row almost completely beyond the edge of the underlying keys so the top row would be further from the hinge.   There are a few things that might help further:


* Make the keys even shorter - but that is not desirable for other reasons of course.   

* Make a much bigger height difference with the keys literally overlapping, but I doubt if that would be a good thing.

* Find a cheap mass market keyboard that often shows up on Craig’s List / Ebay that has a hinge further back.   The reason I chose Yamaha over Casio is because their “full size” keys are longer, so I think that helped keep me further from the hinge and made 4 rows workable at least.  I wonder if one exists with more travel up into the keyboard. For my goals it has to be cheap (< $100 used, preferably <$50) and readily available too.


About offering a 'conversion kit': why not start 'on demand'?

Well, making one is a lot of work / expense.   Making 20 is not that much harder.   In fact, making 20 I could probably take my specs to a shop and have them made with much higher quality and consistency.  For example even carefully using jigs I still had to hand tune the blocks a little to get nice even heights and angles.   


But you may want to perfect your design first. And it would be interesting to try and find a midi controller with a reasonable touch and really narrow keys, if such a thing exists. you could then customize your kit to fit that, so that octave span would be narrow.


That *is* attractive- and Paul links a couple that meet the criteria.   However if the key length / distance to the hinge is less so 3 rows may be the usable limit before the upper row/bottom row stiffness / throw variance get’s too extreme.    I wonder if that would be a good trade off - give up the 4th row in exchange for wider reach left to right.


The way I look at this is it’s a cheap way to get in the game, but it probably can’t ever be a great way.   I’m thinking the kit could be done for around $80 in groups of 20, or if there was more interest possibly down to $40.  Then perhaps enough of a market could be created to inspire a commercial outfit to produce them.     




By the way: will you be able to get the first row keys of for lowering them?

Yes, it’s not too much of a problem.  About 2-3 hours work.   After 50is that’s not so bad, ha ha.   But I want to finish the Dodeka conversion of the other keyboard before returning to Janko.   



Corky Peavy

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:23:14 AM4/22/16
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What do you think, would giving up the 4th row be a good trade for the narrower span?   Paul referenced some keyboards that would fit the bill fairly well.   

Corky Peavy

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:26:14 AM4/22/16
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The smaller keys might make the 4th row unworkable.  If it came to it, would you prefer 4 wide rows, or 3 rows that are narrower?  

Doug Keislar

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:32:37 AM4/22/16
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Hi Paul,

Thanks for those URLs!  The first one says that the Microstation's length is 778 mm.  (I'm guessing the Microarranger has exactly the same keyboard.)  There are 36 white keys, and judging from the photo of the Microstation I'm guessing the left and right edges of the instrument beyond the keyboard are each around 1.5 times the width of a white key.  So I calculate about 139.6 mm per octave, or 5.5 inches.  I see on daskin.com that your keyboards' octave span is 129.6 mm, or 5.1 inches.  Reasonably close, then. 

Doug

Doug Keislar

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:36:55 AM4/22/16
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Have you considered whether you could fit more rows by having the Janko keys hang quite a bit off the front end of the standard keyboard?

Corky Peavy

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Apr 22, 2016, 5:46:16 AM4/22/16
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Yes, that is what I did on the one I built.   The travel distance for the bottom row is about 2.5x greater than the bottom row, and the resistance is similarly different.  Useable, but not great.  If it were any more extreme I don't think it would be very playable.

gguitarwilly

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Apr 22, 2016, 7:15:59 PM4/22/16
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Hi Corky,

three rows is not enough. I played that on my melodica for a while, than added a fourth. 
For a major triad (right hand) you need three rows, to move that up a half tone you need the fourth.
I'm looking forward to being able to use six rows on my converted piano once it's finished.

Willem

Op vrijdag 22 april 2016 07:23:14 UTC+2 schreef Corky Peavy:

Joseph Austin

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May 6, 2016, 2:47:14 PM5/6/16
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Trying to get this conversation back in the forum:

On May 5, 2016, at 4:07 PM, Corky Peavy  wrote:

The thing that is giving me pause on Janko is that it does not exactly deliver on the 1 shape = 1 sound idea.   It's true that you can always do this for a major triad:

 _ _ _ g _
c _ e _ _

except that it's easy with the right hand and hard with the left hand, so in practice I find I'm doing this with the left:

 c _ e _ _
_ _ _ _ g

So it's a mirror image which is still a big improvement over a piano and I *could* do them the same way, it's just harder.


but some chords are impossible to play the same with right and left hands.  For example:

 c _ _ _ _ _ c _
_ _ _ _ g _ _ _


is comfy for the right hand, but with the left it really has to be flipped. 


Other chords are a bit worse.  For example G7

 g _ b _ _ _ f _
_ _ _ _ d _ _ _
 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

This at first seems easy to play the same way with both hands, yea!   But my celebration was premature, because as I move to the center of the kbd that fingering becomes hard, *very* hard with the left hand and I have to go to this:

 g _ b _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ d _ _ _
 _ _ _ _ _ _ f _

on the left hand, which is not even a mirror image.   

Still speaking as someone new to making music, the piano is just downright perverse, cruel even.  With Janko I feel like the instrument is trying to be my friend.  I do find I'm fond of the whole steps on rows with half steps on alternate rows.   

Some piano songs punish this though.   For example Bill Withers "Lean on Me".   On a piano its the same shape for all chords, and on Janko I have to keep changing shapes to play it.  


I think that is just fallout from the fact that much music was written for piano.   Cool things can be written for Janko that would be harder on piano.

Thanks for being a sounding board!

- Corky


 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Corky Peavy
Spanish For Good
http://spanishforgood.youcanbook.me/  (To sign up for a free lesson)


On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Joseph Austin  wrote:
Corky,
Won't moving the hinge forward give you an unacceptable reach to the keys?
What I had in mind was more like a "bridge" over the whole instrument;
the downside would be cutting into knee room underneath.

You can't really decide which "horse" is best without riding them!
I gave a serious 2 months to learning to play Chromatone,
and I only did a couple dozen "easy beginner" pieces.
And even that is hardly enough time to get a real feel for the instrument even to the level at which I can play the conventional piano (roughly book 2-3).

As I've said elsewhere, I can't (yet?) agree with claims that a new keyboard layout makes the instrument "dramatically easier to learn and play".  But on that score I would defer to those with more experience, like Paul Vandervoort and Roy Pertchik.

The difference between the straight 6-6 and Janko is just that Janko gives you keys closer together at the cost of interleaving finger pads for the two whole-tone scales.


On Apr 30, 2016, at 2:30 AM, Corky Peavy wrote:

Hmmm, I did not realize this email does not appear on the board so I missed it!   Yes, I agree the only real solution to getting better results is a longer hinge.   I think it will be hard to build though.   If it is a "set on top" adapter, then it has to be responsible for keeping the keys from sliding/wobbling left to right.   I could imagine something like this, where it actually glues to the bottom of the keyboard, and to the keys themselves:

This would allow the use of a smaller keyboard like Paul was suggesting, giving better coverage and I think better playability.   Right now, the keys actually seem uncomfortably far apart.   

I am far enough into it to see that fingering is kinda weird.   I still plan to finish the straight key keyboard too pretty soon.  (Danskin? it's called?)  I'd don't want to get too deep to change my mind before committing.   Also there is just the black/white/black/white option which is kinda similar.   I'm itching to settle down and see if I can learn to really play *something*, but don't want to pick a terrible horse.   :-/  

Thanks for your input!


Corky Peavy
Spanish For Good
http://spanishforgood.youcanbook.me/  (To sign up for a free lesson)


On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:
Corky,
I don't recall whether I've mentioned this before.
One solution to you key-length problem is to build the whole attachment as a "bridge" over the whole keyboard.
Essentially, instead of extended your keys forward of the keyboard, extend them back well beyond the back of the keyboard.
I'll try a diagram (side view):

-------------------------------------------------------+
|key hinge                   your key                  |
@---------------------------------------------------+  |                          
#                                                   |  |
#                                                   |  |   
#                        ====================+      |__|
#                        "    keyboard        :::::::::::
@ access hinge           ================================
                                                                            
This way, you can position your key hinge as far back as you please,
while the vertical movement of the front of your key will match the vertical movement of the keyboard key,
and you will take full advantage of the return-force of the keyboard key as well.

Of course, what you lose is access to the controls that most cheap keyboard makers put on the flat top of the keyboard,
(where you can't conveniently see them while playing, and which puts the music rack at the back instead of close enough to read!)

But you could design the whole contraption so it could be lifted for set-up.
That's no worse than an acoustic piano, which has only one tone configuration!

Joe Austin

Joseph Austin

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May 6, 2016, 3:05:26 PM5/6/16
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You are correct that our hands are mirror image, not strictly isomorphic.
But I don't typically play the same thing with both hands!
I've had some success playing the pinky low, on the "thumb rows",
which gives some semblance of congruence.
As I've said elsewhere, I'm still not convinced Janko is "dramatically" easier to play!
But it does make more musical sense.

You could try separate, mirror-image keyboards for the two hands, organ style.

Have you seen this?

gguitarwilly

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May 7, 2016, 9:31:14 PM5/7/16
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Hi Corky,

the fingerings you drew don't look comfortable.
Pinky and thumb are shorter than the fingers in between, so it's logical when playing four note chords to play notes in between pinky and thumb on a higher row, not on a lower one. Why play C G C with G on a lower row than the two Cs?
As Joe states, there is not reason to assume left and right hand fingering should somehow be the same or mirror images.
A typical major chord fingering: left hand: root and third on same row (pinky and middle finger), fifth thumb one row lower.
right hand: root thumb, third index or middle finger two rows higher, fifth pinky on row in between.

Just let ergonomics and the difference in finger length guide you, and stick to fingerings that feel most comfortable for triads or four note chords.

you will have to memorize different 'standard' fingerings for left and right hand. 
Don't get discouraged if things don't feel 'easy' right away. I don't know any 'easy' musical instruments.

Willem


Op vrijdag 6 mei 2016 17:05:26 UTC+2 schreef Joseph Austin:

Omar Soriano

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May 8, 2016, 6:55:12 PM5/8/16
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The thing that is giving me pause on Janko is that it does not exactly deliver on the 1 shape = 1 sound idea.   It's true that you can always do this for a major triad:

This is why, in the beginning of your playing, it is recommendable that you decide on one shape for each musical figure, one that is relatively comfortable for both hands, and stick with it until the association between shape and sound is ingrained.  later, as you grow, feel free to add new shapes that recreate the old sounds, but to do that from the beginning will just create confusion.

For example, for the C major triad you mentioned.  I chose only play that as ...

o o o E o o o o
 o o o o G o o
o C o o o o o o

...which I call the "Hustler" shape.  It is comfortable to play in both LH and RH, and both hands at the same time. I have come to mentally associate that shape with a simple, open, major sound.

gguitarwilly

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May 8, 2016, 8:10:28 PM5/8/16
to Janko-Chromatone
Hi Corky,

I drew fingerings for major triads and their inversions which I find the most comfortable, see attached file. I already did so some time ago, but I find that after a year I've had some small insights.
How useable my fingering choice is for you I'm not sure because of the dimensions of your keyboard. 
Chromatone players could probably use the fingerings by adding two empty rows between adjacent rows here and there. For instance the first chord C E on one row and the G three rows lower.

about the notation: it is meant to explain itself, but: the lines represent the rows, fingering is indicated below with thumb being 1 and pinky 5. c e g c'  means the last c is in the next octave.

playing these fingerings should give something of a Janko primer.

Willem


Op zaterdag 7 mei 2016 23:31:14 UTC+2 schreef gguitarwilly:
janko triad inversions fingering.pdf

Paul Morris

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May 10, 2016, 1:14:24 PM5/10/16
to Joseph Austin, Janko-Chromatone
Corky Peavy wrote:

> For example Bill Withers "Lean on Me". On a piano its the same shape for all chords, and on Janko I have to keep changing shapes to play it.
>
> http://www.playpianomusic.com/lean-on-me-chords
>
> I think that is just fallout from the fact that much music was written for piano. Cool things can be written for Janko that would be harder on piano.

Note that this tune is written in C major. That’s what makes it easy on the piano – no black keys to play. In other keys those major 1, 4, and 5 chords (C, F, and G in the key of C major) will not have the same shape. (Maybe even in every other key?)

The piano makes C major (and A minor) easy in exchange for making the other keys harder (and making each key different so that shapes from one won't work the same in another). It gives short term gains for beginners in exchange for long-term hardship, whereas playing Janko you have a steeper learning curve at first but things will be easier in the long term when you start playing in more keys.

Cheers,
-Paul

gguitarwilly

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May 10, 2016, 3:12:48 PM5/10/16
to Janko-Chromatone, drtec...@gmail.com
Hi Corky,

Corky Peavy wrote: 

> For example Bill Withers "Lean on Me".   On a piano its the same shape for all chords, and on Janko I have to keep changing shapes to play it. 

That is a disadvantage of the piano, not an advantage: same shape, different sound.
You'll have to look into the basics of chord construction. You'll find that basic chord shapes on janko are simple, and tell you, by their appearance, how they are construed.

.good luck, Willem

Op dinsdag 10 mei 2016 15:14:24 UTC+2 schreef Paul Morris:

Corky Peavy

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May 22, 2016, 6:24:19 AM5/22/16
to Janko-Chromatone, drtec...@gmail.com
Agreed, I see that already.   It's just that many things are written to adapt the piano.   But the piano really does not interest me except to be amazed at people who succeed in spite of it.
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