Re: Siddhaswarupa...Guru
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Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Oct 31, 2009, 1:46:26 PM10/31/09
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Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I arrived in LA in early 1972 soon after Siddhasvarupa and his followers all joined ISKCON and took initiation from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada had already awarded Siddhasvarupa sannyasa.
One time, I was set up to record Srila Prabhupada's Sunday feast lecture in the "sanctuary" (now the temple room). However, I was disappointed because all that Srila Prabhupada said was that Siddhasvarupa Maharaja should give the lecture. Srila Prabhupada simply sat on the Vyasasana and listened.
Siddhasvarupa was very good looking, very charismatic, and was adored by his many followers, even after they had taken initiation from Srila Prabhupada. This made the other ISKCON sannyasis / leaders very envious. Therefore, they never let him into their inner circle. This is probably part of the reason why he became disgusted, gave up the sannyasa order, left ISKCON, and went back to Hawaii.
He must be doing something right, because he has gotten several of his followers into high political offices there in Hawaii and Radha Mitchell's success as an A list Hollywood actress has been outstanding. These are things that no member of ISKCON has ever been able to accomplish.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
I arrived in LA in early 1972 soon after Siddhasvarupa and his followers all joined ISKCON and took initiation from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada had already awarded Siddhasvarupa sannyasa.
One time, I was set up to record Srila Prabhupada's Sunday feast lecture in the "sanctuary" (now the temple room). However, I was disappointed because all that Srila Prabhupada said was that Siddhasvarupa Maharaja should give the lecture. Srila Prabhupada simply sat on the Vyasasana and listened.
Siddhasvarupa was very good looking, very charismatic, and was adored by his many followers, even after they had taken initiation from Srila Prabhupada. This made the other ISKCON sannyasis / leaders very envious. Therefore, they never let him into their inner circle. This is probably part of the reason why he became disgusted, gave up the sannyasa order, left ISKCON, and went back to Hawaii.
He must be doing something right, because he has gotten several of his followers into high political offices there in Hawaii and Radha Mitchell's success as an A list Hollywood actress has been outstanding. These are things that no member of ISKCON has ever been able to accomplish.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:40 PM, larry freeman p <lak...@webtv.net> wrote:
after Siddha surrendered, and turned over his followers to Prabhupa; he soon found Iskcon too 'heavy' and suppressive, and left, (somewhat with Prabhupad's 'blessings'); and most of his Hawaiian followers left also.From: amey...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 2:22 PM
To: istag...@googlegroups.com, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Cc: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Siddhaswarup... guru
Okay, so, this actress is follower of follow of SiddhaswarupSo, that brings me to another topic - how Prabhupadanuga's relate to Siddha and his followersActually, this is how I relate and I was just wanting to bounce it off others to see their ideas:I have one follower of Siddhaswarup (follower of his disciple, Sankirtan das I think is his name, never met him, a few years ago he had ran a preaching center here in Albuquerque, but has since left), who comes regularly to our programs. One day he brought videos of their meetings (in other states, they have no meetings any more here in Albuquerque), and in all cases, all of them wear casual western dress, more toward hippy dress. No kirtas, no saris, no dhotis. And, even on street Sankirtan, they often play with guitar, not so much temple instruments. They have a much more relaxed standard. No dress standards, who knows anything else. But, they have an appreciation of Srila Prabhupad, and read from his books. And the kirtans are lively and at least what I heard, standard ISKCON fare. But, they are tainted by the lax atmosphere. This bhakta, he has no desire to get even a kurta to wear to our programs. Still, we don't push him.Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the following is correct: This Bhakta told me that before Siddha joined he already had his own ashram, and was acting as guru and initiating his own disciples. Then, he found Srila Prabhupad's books and accepted Prabhupad as his own guru. When he did, he told his disciples that they should follow him and also surrender to Prabhupad and become his disciple. I don't recall if the Bhakta told me how many did. But, after Siddha started coming to the temple and considered himself disciple of Prabhupad (I do not know if Siddha had been initiated by Prabhupad yet) one of his followers who was not initiated yet also came to the temple and accepted Prabhupad. At some point this boy approached Srila Prabhupad and asked to take initiation. Prabhupad knew that he had previously been a follower of Siddhaswarup, and so he told this boy he that his first guru was Siddha, so he should ask Siddha to initiate him. But, Siddhaswarup considered himself a follower and disciple of Srila Prabhupad, so Siddhaswarup told the boy, no. He said that he was now a follower of Srila Prabhupad, and therefore the boy should take Prabhupad's shelter and take initiation from Prabhupad as well, that Prabhupad was superior guru. The boy went back to Prabhupad and let him know what Siddha told him. Prabhupad said, yes, only since Siddha gave his permission, then Prabhupad could accept the boy. Prabhupad said it was not proper ettiquette for Prabhupad to initiate someone who had previously been following another guru - who was now a Vaishnav, not without their permission. And, so Prabhupad initiated that boy.Now, I have only heard it the other way, that Siddha started initiating in Prabhupad's presence, and so Prabhupad wrote him that letter saying it was etiquette to not do so in the presence of one's guru But, I never heard about the above incident. The Bhakta said that originally Prabhupad showed proper etiquette of not initiating another Vaishnava's followers, without their permission. Does anyone know if this incident is true, or if there is a different version of it?Ameyatma das
larry freeman p
Oct 31, 2009, 2:35:48 PM10/31/09
to ista gosthi
Chris Butler/Siddhaswarupa:
both his parents were medical doctors.
when he left Iskcon, he was hounded by Iskcon fanatics;
to the point he felt literally threatened,
possibly to be 'taken out': as a competetor?
he went somewhat into hiding for many years;
and still keeps far away from Iskcon.
http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya
From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:46:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Guru
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
http://community.webtv.net/lakshmi/TheLakshmiSampradaya
From: praty...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:46:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Guru
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Oct 31, 2009, 2:41:25 PM10/31/09
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Very interesting.
Sean Hartigan
Oct 31, 2009, 7:56:05 PM10/31/09
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How is Radha Mitchell's success as an A-list hollywood actor an achievement a devotee would care about? What has she done to spread the holy name? Look at some of the interviews on youtube of her and find one where she isn't in a cleavage revealing outfit, much less find one of her talking about krsna consciousness. Listen to her talk about her love for wearing a bikini in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hnw1yNxPSc and see if you can avoid getting an eye full. Would Srila Prabhupada consider having one of his initiates acting like this to be a success? I think not.
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Oct 31, 2009, 8:44:44 PM10/31/09
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The question should be, "Is she engaging the fruits of her labor nicely in Krishna's service."
She is simply acting the part of a smart A-list Hollywood actress, trying to be assured of more good acting jobs in the future.
Sounds to me like you might be a little envious.
Do you have a karmi job wherein you also have an opportunity to preach? Most of us had to simply bite our lips, hold our noses, and "take the money and run!"
How much money do you make?
She is simply acting the part of a smart A-list Hollywood actress, trying to be assured of more good acting jobs in the future.
Sounds to me like you might be a little envious.
Do you have a karmi job wherein you also have an opportunity to preach? Most of us had to simply bite our lips, hold our noses, and "take the money and run!"
How much money do you make?
Sean Hartigan
Oct 31, 2009, 8:56:41 PM10/31/09
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So the means justifies the ends? Parading as a liar and prostitute is fine so long as it draws a large salary? I'm not envious, simply confused as to how this could be considered successful by Vaishnava standards.
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Oct 31, 2009, 9:12:03 PM10/31/09
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No. The end justifies the means. She's not doing anything illegal. Maybe she realizes that she's not her body. "Full frontal nudity" is going a little far, but it sounds like a clever, charismatic, intimidating, Oscar-winning director (Robert Benton) may have brainwashed her into doing it. We all make mistakes. Srila Prabhupada said that "Women and children are always to be considered innocent."
What example of making a lot of money and preaching at the same time are you setting? Please tell us all how to do it. We are waiting with baited breath!
What example of making a lot of money and preaching at the same time are you setting? Please tell us all how to do it. We are waiting with baited breath!
Sean Hartigan
Oct 31, 2009, 9:28:28 PM10/31/09
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So it's not illegal in this perverted world we live in, but neither is animal slaughter or pornography. Surely no sane devotee would be proud of being a butcher or prostitute simply because they made a lot of money they then used to serve Krsna.
I think there is a difference between acting as a sex object in karmi films and working for Pepsi. You are right in that we must carve out a living somehow, but I disagree with pointing to Radha's career as anything close to a success story. I also fail to see how she is preaching. Do you have any examples?
I think there is a difference between acting as a sex object in karmi films and working for Pepsi. You are right in that we must carve out a living somehow, but I disagree with pointing to Radha's career as anything close to a success story. I also fail to see how she is preaching. Do you have any examples?
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Oct 31, 2009, 9:34:08 PM10/31/09
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"Vegetarian and practices yoga." is good preaching, and people are benefited just by saying her name ("Radha").
Sean Hartigan
Oct 31, 2009, 9:52:25 PM10/31/09
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Would Srila Prabhupada agree that being vegetarian and practicing "yoga" is good preaching?
George Harrison used his position to do some good preaching, there is a successful example.
Radha Mitchell has not used her position to preach successfully. She has simply acted like any other Karmi.
People are benefited by saying her name, yes, but she did not really choose that name.
George Harrison used his position to do some good preaching, there is a successful example.
Radha Mitchell has not used her position to preach successfully. She has simply acted like any other Karmi.
People are benefited by saying her name, yes, but she did not really choose that name.
Howard Charles Best
Oct 31, 2009, 10:08:44 PM10/31/09
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"Full given name, Radha-Rani, is the name of the true love/main consort
of the god Krishna in Hinduism, followed by the word for queen (Rani -
from various Indian languages)" is also good preaching.
Srila Prabhupada never put pressure on his disciples who had karmi jobs to also preach while on the job. I was never put under any such pressure, not by my wife, not by my children, not by any temple president, and not by any of my godbrothers. We all understood that you just "take the money and run."
Srila Prabhupada never put pressure on his disciples who had karmi jobs to also preach while on the job. I was never put under any such pressure, not by my wife, not by my children, not by any temple president, and not by any of my godbrothers. We all understood that you just "take the money and run."
Gadadhara das
Oct 31, 2009, 10:15:45 PM10/31/09
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| I also completely fail to see how this is preaching at all. She advertises breaking the 4 regs. She never once mentioned Krishna Consciousness or Prabhupada. She is initiated by a bogus goru. Even that is speculation. ... we dont know anything about her. Who cares for her. Only lusty men, .... Krishna Conscious effect: ZERO Lust Effect: 100! Kate Bosworth is more productive to Krishna Consciousness. At least she played a devotee in a movie. She is a Vegan and promotes it as well. The only difference is that she doesnt have a devotee name. Other than that theres not much difference between them. They both promote illicit sex, gambling, and intoxication. --- On Sat, 10/31/09, Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP <praty...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Sean Hartigan
Oct 31, 2009, 10:17:47 PM10/31/09
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I agree 100% "take the money and run".
What I don't agree with is heralding Radha Mitchell as a Krsna conscious preaching success story.
What I don't agree with is heralding Radha Mitchell as a Krsna conscious preaching success story.
Howard Charles Best
Oct 31, 2009, 10:28:32 PM10/31/09
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Why do you say that he's a bogus guru? Are you saying that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are capable of becoming a guru? This is simply a criticism of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada prescribed ritvik initiations for within ISKCON, not outside of ISKCON. Siddhaswarupa started his own institution, just like Srila Prabhupada did.
He has met with great success. Judge by the result, and try not to be envious.
He has met with great success. Judge by the result, and try not to be envious.
larry freeman p
Nov 1, 2009, 12:25:15 AM11/1/09
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Again; of course the purpose of all of us practicing bhakti yoga is to become KRSNA Conscious: genuinely fully GOD realized. and many of us have been trying to do so for decades. Hopefully one of us; or some of us; or a LOT of us have been successful, and realized KRSNA fully: 100%, like Prabhupad.
But, judging by the lives and 'results' of many 'gurus'; does it seem like anyone has 'made it'? (yet)?
No doubt: Siddha is a mellow 'guru'; who has created many new devotees. Based on a lot of criteria by a genuinely realized master: Prabhupad; is there one genuinely clear reason to prove Siddha has 'made it'? i.e.: He is now realized? If he is not (yet) realized; yet claiming he 'is' a pure devotee; then what is he?
Was Bhaktisiddanta a 'failure' for not producing one single pure devotee in Gaudiya Math? (according to Prabhupad: "Not one of my godbrothers is qualified to be acharya"; etc.).
Aren't we drowning in unrealized pure devotees? claiming to be realized?
who Prabhupad says are simply creating 'chaos' in society: misleading so many naive followers?
Better to be honest ritvik: not falsely claiming realization.
isn't it?
But, judging by the lives and 'results' of many 'gurus'; does it seem like anyone has 'made it'? (yet)?
No doubt: Siddha is a mellow 'guru'; who has created many new devotees. Based on a lot of criteria by a genuinely realized master: Prabhupad; is there one genuinely clear reason to prove Siddha has 'made it'? i.e.: He is now realized? If he is not (yet) realized; yet claiming he 'is' a pure devotee; then what is he?
Was Bhaktisiddanta a 'failure' for not producing one single pure devotee in Gaudiya Math? (according to Prabhupad: "Not one of my godbrothers is qualified to be acharya"; etc.).
Aren't we drowning in unrealized pure devotees? claiming to be realized?
who Prabhupad says are simply creating 'chaos' in society: misleading so many naive followers?
Better to be honest ritvik: not falsely claiming realization.
isn't it?
From: Howard Charles Best
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 7:28 PM
To: istag...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Goru
Why do you say that he's a bogus guru? Are you saying that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are capable of becoming a guru? This is simply a criticism of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada prescribed ritvik initiations for within ISKCON, not outside of ISKCON. Siddhaswarupa started his own institution, just like Srila Prabhupada did.
He has met with great success. Judge by the result, and try not to be envious.
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Gadadhara das <cc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
He has met with great success. Judge by the result, and try not to be envious.
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Gadadhara das <cc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I also completely fail to see how this is preaching at all.��� She advertises breaking the 4 regs. She never once mentioned Krishna Consciousness or Prabhupada. She is initiated by a bogus goru.� Even that is speculation. ... we dont know anything about her. Who cares for her. Only lusty men, ....��
Krishna Conscious effect: ZERO
Lust Effect:� 100!
Kate Bosworth is more productive to Krishna Consciousness. At least she played a devotee in a movie. She is a Vegan and promotes it as well.� The only difference is that she doesnt have a devotee name. Other than that theres not much difference between them. They both promote illicit sex, gambling, and intoxication.
Gadadhara das
Nov 1, 2009, 12:28:20 AM11/1/09
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| are you saying Siddhaswarupa is a bonifide guru? and no I did NOT say that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are not capable of being gurus. ... Why do you put words in my mouth? What is wrong with you? Siddhaswarupa fell down, he is not a bonifide guru. He is a Goru! These are just simple facts. What does envy have to do with anything? Why would I be envious of a Goru? Envy means that I want something that some one else has. It is just the opposite, I am appalled by his antics and the antics of his disciples. One of his idiot diciples came to my house last week HE WAS ACTUALLY INITIATED BY SIRLA PRABHUPADA. He offered his obeisances and said "nama om vishnu-padaya. krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale. shrimate SIDDHASWARUPANANDA-. svamin iti namine...." He explained how once he chopped a raccoon up with a heavy ax because he thought that the raccoon was sick. These type of people are just demons. Thats all . nothing more. They do not perform any devotional service at all. They believe that Sankirtana is NOT A GOOD THING. They do not distribute Srila Prabhupada's books. They sit around the camp fire singing songs on the guitar and kill raccoons in their spear time. --- On Sat, 10/31/09, Howard Charles Best <hbe...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Howard Charles Best
Nov 8, 2015, 5:52:36 PM11/8/15
to istag...@googlegroups.com, cc...@yahoo.com
Dear Gadadhara Prabhu Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
You say that one of his disciples is a nonsense, but some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are nonsense also, including me, so what does that prove?
Please see other answers below.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
You say that one of his disciples is a nonsense, but some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are nonsense also, including me, so what does that prove?
Please see other answers below.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Gadadhara das wrote:
are you saying Siddhaswarupa is a bonifide guru?
Who. among Srila Prabhupada's disciples have started their own successful institutions outside of ISKCON? You could count them on your fingers, right? Why criticize them? The only reason that I can think of is to try and boost our own egos. If we were to hang out our own guru shingle, how many disciples would we get? Probably not very many, right? Too criticize someone who had done what we ourselves are unable to do does not put us in a very good light. Similar to Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers criticizing him out of envy, right?
and no I did NOT say that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are not capable of being gurus. ..
Why do you put words in my mouth?
Name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has his own disciples and whom you respect.
What is wrong with you?
Do you want a list?
Siddhaswarupa fell down, he is not a bonifide guru. He is a Goru!
Our philosophy is that no matter how many times we fall down, we can pick ourselves up and go on making advancement. Unlike some other's who have fallen down, he is not still pretending to be a sannyasi.
These are just simple facts. What does envy have to do with anything? Why would I be envious of a Goru? Envy means that I want something that some one else has. It is just the opposite, I am appalled by his antics and the antics of his disciples.
He has disciples and a successful institution. You do not.
"Chris Butler's most successful political endeavor to date has been the Gabbard family. Mike Gabbard (Krishna Kartha das) was elected Senator for Hawaii in 2006. Wife Carol Gabbard (Devaruti dasi) spent a record amount to win a place on the Hawaiian Board of Education and daughter Tulsi Gabbard-Tamayo won a seat in the House of Representatives in 2002."
How's that for something to be envious of?
One of his idiot diciples came to my house last week HE WAS ACTUALLY INITIATED BY SIRLA PRABHUPADA. He offered his obeisances and said "nama om vishnu-padaya. krishna-preshthaya bhu-tale. shrimate SIDDHASWARUPANANDA-. svamin iti namine...."
He explained how once he chopped a raccoon up with a heavy ax because he thought that the raccoon was sick. These type of people are just demons. Thats all . nothing more.
They do not perform any devotional service at all.
What makes what you do "devotional service" any more than what he does?
They believe that Sankirtana is NOT A GOOD THING. They do not distribute Srila Prabhupada's books. They sit around the camp fire singing songs on the guitar and kill raccoons in their spear time.
Srila Prabhupada had nothing but good things to say about George Harrison's devotional music, which he wrote himself and which included guitar playing.
Gadadhara das
Nov 1, 2009, 10:23:48 AM11/1/09
to Howard Charles Best, istag...@googlegroups.com
| Pratyatosa Prabhu, All Gloires to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances. Thats nice that you are such a sentimentalist. Hridayananda das is doing such a nice job. Oh and Sastavarupa ... hes great! so much preaching. This is ridiculous its a kind of "mayavadhi vaishnavism" : the idea that everyone is "Good" no matter what they do. ... They are all the same, they do no wrong. No one is a cheater. ... for those who want to be cheated, thats fine, "we are all one": but for those who can see the forest for the trees: we get the following words: "...Because of this, they are always bereft of the association of pure devotees, and thus they cannot behave like Vaisnavas. Observing the defects of the sahajiyas, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung as follows in his book Kalyana-kalpa-taru: ami ta' vaisnava, e-buddhi ha-ile,
amani na haba ami... "If I think
I am a Vaisnava, I shall look forward to receiving respect from others.
And if the desire for fame and reputation pollute my heart, certainly I
shall go to hell. By giving others the
remnants of my food, I shall consider myself superior and shall be
burdened with the weight of false pride. Therefore, always remaining
your surrendered disciple, I shall not accept worship from anyone
else." Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has written (Antya-lila 20.28):
premera svabhava--yahan premera sambandha
sei mane,--'krsne mora nahi prema-gandha' "Wherever
there is a relationship of love of Godhead, the natural symptoms are
that the devotee does not think himself a devotee, but always thinks
that he has not even a drop of love for Krsna."
tesam kupatha-destrnam... "Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them." YourHumbleServant, Gadadhara das |
--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Howard Charles Best <hbe...@gmail.com> wrote: |
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To: "Gadadhara das" <cc...@yahoo.com> |
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amey...@gmail.com
Nov 1, 2009, 11:27:53 AM11/1/09
to istag...@googlegroups.com
HK
As far as this topic, for me it is very
distracting. Of course, there is value in people hearing the names
of Radha Krsna and Their devotees, but, there are
millions of people in India and abroad who have such names and engage in the
lowest acts... just having such name does not justify any and all degraded
actions these people engage in.
Justifying her appearing naked
before millions of lusty men is somehow service because she has name
Radha that becomes Sahajya. What, all
women with name Radha can stand naked in the public in exchange for money and
the world will become purified because all the men will hear the name
Radha? So, the men will think, ah, here is Radha,
standing naked before me. While they lust after wanting to enjoy her
nakedness. This is not what you have proposed, but, this
is what it would lead to, Sahajya. Naked Radha, let me
enjoy.
Pratyatosh argues the woman has done nothing
illegal, but seems to only be concerned with the laws created by the fools
of modern society. The laws of Dharma, and Prabhupad's
teachigns, which are our real law books, he
ignores.
Aug 1, 1975 Prabhupad is arguing that
polygamy should be allowed, devotees are giving arguments why it should
not be, and one argument was public opinion...
>>>Nityananda: The general public objects
to that... It's very...
Prabhupada: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mudhas, they have been described, mudhas. You know the meaning of mudha?
Devotee: Ass.
Prabhupada: Ass. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah paramam mama.
Prabhupada: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mudhas, they have been described, mudhas. You know the meaning of mudha?
Devotee: Ass.
Prabhupada: Ass. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah paramam mama.
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Viewing women naked is gratifying the senses, the
sense of seeing. Seeing the naked body of a shapely woman is one of the BASE
forms of Gross Sense Enjoyment. It is Subtle form of Illicit Sex. It
invokes lusty desires, increased sense enjoyment and in
all ways, it is not at all conducive to devotional
service.
Radharani is so chaste, she only reveals her
feet and ankles to her devotees but once a year. Draupadi
was so chaste, not even Surya, the sun-god, had seen her uncovered hair before
she was dragged into the royal assembly and insulted.
The ONLY men who had ever seen even her hair uncovered before then were
here 5 devotee husbands. Draupadi was chastity personified.
Although Krsna and His devotees see Draupadi as the
most chaste woman, it was Duryodhan and his followers who wanted to
enjoy their senses by seeing her naked beauty (which, according to dharma, is
reserved only for the husband to see). Due to this act of trying to
ruin the chastity of a most chaste woman, the battle of Kurushetra took
place and 632 million men lost their lives. While Dushashan and
Duryodhan wanted to see Draupadi's naked body, Krsna prevented
this horrible transgression and supplied endless cloth.
Whoever this Radha is, if she has husband, her husband has failed to
protect her chastity. If she has guru and he actually APPROVED of
this, then he has no qualification, and has failed to protect
her chastity. Krsna performed a mystic act to protect Draupadi
from being forced naked before men who are not her religious
husbands. Men of moral decency and who understand and uphold the
principles of Dharma will do whatever they can to protect a women from being
seen naked in public. They stand on the side of Krsna, Arjun
and Yudisthir, Dharmaraj, They stand up and fight to uphold the
dharma of the chastity of chaste women. Those who want to see a chaste
women strip naked, they stand on the opposite side, along with
Duryodhan,
I consider Pratyatosh an old friend,
and do not want to disrupt that friendship, but, the modern
slogan is, friends don't let friends drive drunk. Devotee
friends don't let devotee friends fall deeply into maya. So,
take my words as coming from a friend. I find these arguments given
by Pratyatosh to be totally vacant of any real substance. Quoting that we
can engage anything in Krsna's service, alone, out of context, then
we can justify any damn thing period. But, we have to consider those
statements with his other teachings.
>>>It appears from the words of Urvasi
that the standard of living, eating, behavior and speech are all different on
the heavenly planets from the standards on this planet earth. The inhabitants of
the heavenly planets do not eat such abominable things as meat and eggs;
everything they eat is prepared in clarified butter. Nor do they like to see
either men or women naked, except at the time of sexual intercourse. To live
naked or almost naked is uncivilized, but on this planet earth it has now become
fashionable to dress half naked, and sometimes those like hippies live
completely naked. Indeed, there are many clubs and societies for this purpose.
Such conduct is not allowed, however, on the heavenly planets. The inhabitants
of the heavenly planets, aside from being very beautiful, both in complexion and
bodily features, are well behaved and long-living, and they eat first-class food
in goodness. These are some of the distinctions between the inhabitants of the
heavenly planets and the inhabitants of earth.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB
9.14.23
In the story of Krsna stealing the clothes of the
gopis, who were bathing naked in the river Yamuna. First, Prabhupad
says that males were not allowed to go to the place where the women bathed. But,
the gopis had all been praying for Krsna to become their husband. Only
husband is to see a woman naked. Thus, to satisfy their prayers Krsna went
to that place, although it is forbidden for males to go there, he went
there and by seeing them naked he fulfilled their desire that they will be His
wives. By seeing them naked, technically he
had agreed to take them all as his wives.
This means every man who sees this Radha Mitchell naked has become
her husband. If her intention was not to become wife of all men who see
her naked, then she was willingly becoming public prostitute. You glorify
her nakedness as justified because she is now an A class actress, and this is
something you see as glorifiable for devotee. I find it
deplorable. I could not find quote right away, but I think it is in
Bhagavatam, somewhere, or maybe it is in Manu Samhita, it states that to protect
his citizens a king must not allow Professional Singers, Dancers and Actors to
perform in his kingdom. It is stated that professional actors and
performers degrade society. To become naked and do favors for powerful men
is exactly what it takes today for women to become A actresses or
singers. The Madonna's and Britney Spears. The more willing
they are to go naked the more the producers will promote them and make them
famous. This R Mitchell is not to be glorified as
great Vaishnavi, but, this was the act of a professional
prostitute. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sure you can find
1,000's of prostitutes in Mumbai with the name Radha. Many of them
carrying HIV and all sorts of sexually transmitted diseases. For
years men in the villages have gone to Mumbai too seek employment and
money, and being away from their wives, they relieve themselves
by visiting the many "Radha's" in Mumbai's red-light districts.
Then, they return home to their wives... and for years
now, this is how HIV and sexually transmitted diseases have
spread deep into the villages of India. Since many of
these prostitutes have the name Radha, I take it that you will
find their acts somehow devotional? No, I am sure you
don't, but, somehow you seem enamored by the fact his women is
an A actress.
>>>In animal life, the animal has no sense
to understand that he is naked. But Kuvera was the treasurer of the demigods, a
very responsible man, and Nalakuvara and Manigriva were two of his sons. And yet
they became so animalistic and irresponsible that they could not understand, due
to intoxication, that they were naked. To cover the lower part of the
body is a principle of human civilization, and when men or women forget this
principle, they become no better than animals.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 10: The
Deliverance of Nalakuvara and Manigriva
According to Jagat Guru, Srila Prabhupad,
this Radha has acted no better then an animal. Pratyatosh thinks for her
to stand naked before millions of lusty men has not harmed her, and encourages
us, on an auspicious ekadasi day to go see her naked. And goes on arguing
that it is somehow wonderful that she is an A actress, that this is
something great for a devotee, that the means justifies the end.
But, according to Prabhupad, her actions, in regards to standing naked, are no
better then an animal. Glorify the chastity of Draupadi,
not the animalistic behavior of immoral so-called fallen
Vaishnavi's,
Glorify your own daughter, who is a
chaste wife and mother, rather then the a-dharmic actions of this professional
prostitute (taking money to have gross sex, or the not so subtle sex of
standing naked before millions, is prostitute).
You should be encouraging devotees to see the good
and CHASTE qualities of your good wife and wonderful daughter, then
glorifying the nakedness of this other woman. Glorify mother Urmila's
chastity of never taking another husband. That is to be
followed, that is to be upheld in society, that we should be
encouraging our children to see as great example and to follow. Not
women who stand naked before millions of men for
money. Promote the glorious qualities of your
own daughter who desired to accept Srila Prabhupad's teachings
that wife should allow her husband to take more than one wife.
Who is a chaste mother and chaste wife. She may not earn
millions of dollars being a chaste wife,
but, the goal of our philosophy is not that we live for
Money. we live to serve Guru and Krsna. That
is our goal. The chastity of your good wife,
mother Urmila and your daughter brings 1,000 times more happiness to
Srila Prabhupad's heart then the millions of dollars given by a
woman who stands naked in the public in exchange for money.
Get thy bearings, prabhu.
I could find 100's more quotes and examples
- but, really, I have no more time for
this non-sense. I think it best to remove me from the
Istagosthi list, it is only distraction... I have not much
connection with other devotees, I opened a facebook account, but don't have time
for it, I also don’t go to sun or other devotee
sites, but, what is the use of associating with someone
who has no sense of right and wrong... ?
Sorry if I seem too
harsh, and again, I am not without my own
personal faults, I am worse offender then any of you... but,
principle is principle and I just can't remain silent when I see transgression
of such principles.
aspiring to become your worthy and humble
servant, ameyatma das
PS I think an appropriate atonement
would be for you to take it on yourself to do as I suggested,
broadcaste the glories of the CHASTITY of your good wife...
Encourage her chastity, of never having taken another husband, of having
remained faithful to her one and only devotee husband, as a role model for the
devotee girls to follow. You should encourage devotees to see her chastily
clothed modesty. I could not find the quote just now, but, in SB
Srila Prabhupad states that a chaste woman is Worshipable by the
Brahmanas. Brahmanas are worshipable by all others in society, but a
chaste woman is worshipable by the brahmanas. Devotees glorify the chaste
behavior of Draupadi, we don’t glorify women who stand naked in the
public. Women like your wife, men of dharma will bow
their heads to their feet with no hesitation. Seeing chaste women,
like mother Urmila, be properly honored and glorified in society will
bring far more pleasure to Srila Prabhupad then millions of dollars given by
women who stand naked in the public. Any day of the week.
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Guru
Howard Charles Best
Nov 1, 2009, 2:54:49 PM11/1/09
to cc...@yahoo.com, istag...@googlegroups.com
Just see, Gadadhara Prabhu, nice quotes by Srila Prabhupada, but you are using them to avoid the issue. Isn't this called a "straw man argument?" You simply ignored everything that I said and then proceeded to try and defeat something that I never said!
For one thing, I said "Name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has his own disciples and whom you respect," but the only examples that you can think of are ones that you don't respect. My theory is that you don't respect any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who have their own disciples. Am I right?
Your not-so-humble servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
For one thing, I said "Name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has his own disciples and whom you respect," but the only examples that you can think of are ones that you don't respect. My theory is that you don't respect any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who have their own disciples. Am I right?
Your not-so-humble servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
Gadadhara das
Nov 1, 2009, 3:12:47 PM11/1/09
to Howard Charles Best, istag...@googlegroups.com
| Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances. No you are not right, Pratyatosa Prabhu. Just see your self. Why should I have to "Name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has his own disciples and whom you respect"??? such a foolish proposition. It has nothing to do with the point: I respect all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who are following the orders of their Spiritual Master. If I named just one that would be leaving out the others. There are many who are following. You are the one avoiding the point: You say that those who are not following are "okay" and "doing a good job" (in so many words). This is the point that you made and it is false statement! It is out of sentiment only. "...generally the people accept the son of a brāhmaṇa as a real brāhmaṇa, by sentiment only. Factually the matter is different. A brāhmaṇa is accepted on the merit of qualification and not on the merit of simply being the son of a brāhmaṇa."(SB 1.7.43) That is the entire point: you consider Siddhaswarpananda a real (guru), "by sentiment only. Factually the matter is different." A guru is accepted on the merit of QUALIFICATION AND NOT ON THE MERIT OF SIMPLY BEING THE DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. |
YourHumbleServant, Gadadhara das --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Howard Charles Best <hbe...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Howard Charles Best
Nov 1, 2009, 4:01:38 PM11/1/09
to cc...@yahoo.com, istag...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Gadadhara das <cc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I respect all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who are following the orders of their Spiritual Master.
Pratyatosa Dasa ACBSP
Nov 1, 2009, 4:41:52 PM11/1/09
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Dear Ameyatma Prabhu, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I already apologized for sending out that link. If I had sent it out a day later would it have made any difference? Although, I, like you, was observing Ekadasi on that day, I sent the email out on impulse as a passionate reaction to a private email that I had just received, not thinking whether or not it was Ekadasi. Please forgive me for sending it out on Ekadasi, and please again forgive me for sending it out period. I fully realize now that it was my mistake to have tempted Lord Sri Krishna's dear devotees in that way. I'm very, very sorry.
You are overly paranoid. No one was "out to get you" by putting grains out on the prasadam table on Ekadasi in Detroit in the early 80s. It was temple policy, and it probably still is. The temple authorities don't want to see guests, who are not observing Ekadasi, go hungry, and they don't want to see prasadam go to waste.
You mentioned that I should glorify my chaste wife, Urmila Devi Dasi as atonement. A few years ago, I used her as a good example to try and inspire karmi women:
By the way, very few of us have time to read your repetitious, long-winded posts. Also, you don't even know the difference between "then" and "than." (One of my pet peeves.) Isn't that something that we were supposed to have learned in junior high?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
I already apologized for sending out that link. If I had sent it out a day later would it have made any difference? Although, I, like you, was observing Ekadasi on that day, I sent the email out on impulse as a passionate reaction to a private email that I had just received, not thinking whether or not it was Ekadasi. Please forgive me for sending it out on Ekadasi, and please again forgive me for sending it out period. I fully realize now that it was my mistake to have tempted Lord Sri Krishna's dear devotees in that way. I'm very, very sorry.
You are overly paranoid. No one was "out to get you" by putting grains out on the prasadam table on Ekadasi in Detroit in the early 80s. It was temple policy, and it probably still is. The temple authorities don't want to see guests, who are not observing Ekadasi, go hungry, and they don't want to see prasadam go to waste.
You mentioned that I should glorify my chaste wife, Urmila Devi Dasi as atonement. A few years ago, I used her as a good example to try and inspire karmi women:
Examples of Successful Women
That web page got me banned from the local public library for 90 days, and my banning indirectly got the local public library director fired!By the way, very few of us have time to read your repetitious, long-winded posts. Also, you don't even know the difference between "then" and "than." (One of my pet peeves.) Isn't that something that we were supposed to have learned in junior high?
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
alice...@att.net
Nov 1, 2009, 7:27:47 PM11/1/09
to Howard Charles Best, Gadadhara das, istag...@googlegroups.com
When a person is actually qualified to accept disciples, that person is so advanced that he thinks himself to be lower than a straw in the street. Such a person would never presume to accept disciples. The only way he'd accept disciples is if he is ordered to do so by his spiritual master. No one is a bona fide spiritual master unless he has been personally ordered to accept disciples by his bona fide spiritual master.
Chris Butler had disciples when he was still in high school. I was told this by a contemporary who attended high school with him. He brought his entourage with him to ISKCON, got knowledge and continued to accept disciples. As far as I know, he was never ordered to accept disciples. Because his followers use concocted mantras, I'm doubtful that Chris Butler is a pure devotee. But who am I to judge? I wouldn't send anyone to his group, however.
By the way, I am corresponding with a person who is now reading Srila Prabhupada's books and has given up eating meat. Unfortunately I have no where to send him for association. He lives in Northern California.
Anuttama
Chris Butler had disciples when he was still in high school. I was told this by a contemporary who attended high school with him. He brought his entourage with him to ISKCON, got knowledge and continued to accept disciples. As far as I know, he was never ordered to accept disciples. Because his followers use concocted mantras, I'm doubtful that Chris Butler is a pure devotee. But who am I to judge? I wouldn't send anyone to his group, however.
By the way, I am corresponding with a person who is now reading Srila Prabhupada's books and has given up eating meat. Unfortunately I have no where to send him for association. He lives in Northern California.
Anuttama
-------------- Original message from Howard Charles Best <hbe...@gmail.com>: --------------
Dear Gadadhara Prabhu Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
You say that one of his disciples is a nonsense, but some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are nonsense also, including me, so what does that prove?
Please see other answers below.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Gadadhara das <cc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
are you saying Siddhaswarupa is a bonifide guru?
Who. among Srila Prabhupada's disciples have started their own successful institutions outside of ISKCON? You could count them on your fingers, right? Why criticize them? The only reason that I can think of is to try and boost our own egos. If we were to hang out our own guru shingle, how many disciples would we get? Probably not very many, right? Too criticize someone who had done what we ourselves are unable to do does not put us in a very good light. Similar to Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers criticizing him out of envy, right?
and no I did NOT say that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are not capable of being gurus. ..
Why do you put words in my mouth?
Name one disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has his own disciples and whom you respect.
What is wrong with you?
Do you want a list?
Siddhaswarupa fell down, he is not a bonifide guru. He is a Goru!
Our philosophy is that no matter how many times we fall down, we can pick ourselves up and go on making advancement. Unlike some other's who have fallen down, he is not still pretending to by a sannyasi.
These are just simple facts. What does envy have to do with anything? Why would I be envious of a Goru? Envy means that I want something that some one else has. It is just the opposite, I am appalled by his antics and the antics of his disciples.
He has disciples and a successful institution. You do not.
"Chris Butler's most successful political endeavor to date has been the Gabbard family. Mike Gabbard (Krishna Kartha das) was elected Senator for Hawaii in 2006. Wife Carol Gabbard (Devaruti dasi) spent a record amount to win a place on the Hawaiian Board of Education and daughter Tulsi Gabbard-Tamayo won a seat in the House of Representatives in 2002."
How's that for something to be envious of?
Gadadhara das
Nov 1, 2009, 8:01:42 PM11/1/09
to Howard Charles Best, istag...@googlegroups.com
| PAMHO . All Glories to Srila Prabhupada Pratyatosa Prabhu, personally I respect everyone only because Supersoul is in their hearts,... but that doesnt mean that I do not "tell it like it is". Call a spade "a spade" Dont call a spade "the king of hearts". ... Siddhaswarupa das fell down and does not follow the orders of his spiritual master, his disciples are lead to think that he is "as good as God". He leads them AWAY FROM Srila Prabhupada: therefore he is not bonifide. He is a ZERO! Yes, he is a cheater, there is no question. The product of his preaching is that A PRABHPADA DISCIPLE offers his pranams to SIDDHASWARUPA and NOT HIS OWN GURU! This is against GURU, SADHU, SASTRA. Someone who can not follow the four regs, MISLEADS PEOPLE, and does not personally communicate with Krishna is not qualified to deliver anyone "Back to Godhead" YOUR QUESTION: Your "leading" question (which is completely on a DIFFERENT TOPIC) as follows: |
"whether or not they are accepting disciples on their own behalf within ISKCON or outside of ISKCON has nothing to do with whether or not you respect them?" |
| If someone is able to be OUTSIDE of ISKCON and become a successful GURU, A REAL GURU,... then I FULLY respect them even if they are not giving diksha "on behalf" of Srila Prabhupada. ... I would bow to their lotus feet! They are bonifide because Ritvik initiations are for ISKCON,... not outside groups (other branches of the Chaitanya Tree). But the fact is...there is noone currently like Srila Prabhupada (or on the platform of Uttama Adikari like Srila Prabhupada is), not even remotely close... not even with in a billion mile radius. If there was such a person, you would not have to point them out, it would be obvious. HOW TO DO YOU KNOW THAT THE SUN IS SHINING? ??? ANSWER THIS QUESTION! HOW DO YOU KNOW??? Because the sun is THE SUN! Same thing goes for Srila Prabhupada. He is like the SUN. ... resident, BURNING BRIGHT, "like an iron rod", ... you get near Him and he can deliver you to Krishna. Because Krishna is like a vortex and Srila Prabhupada is too. For those who are sincere in search of a bonifide GURU, they will get "a real GURU", OUR LIVING GURU: SRILA PRABHUPADA. But for those who WANT to be cheated, they get what they deserve. They will get someone like Siddhaswarupa das or Hridayananda das, or Narayan Maharaj. They will end up a successful KARMI with a spiritual name. They will occasionally drink alcohol and promote illicit sex and gambling and they will not care if they eat at meat restaurants. Or they will be sahajiyas walking around talking about Radha Krishna's rasika pastimes while going to the Cinema to watch stories of other peoples sex life. ... these are the signs of Kali Yuga: "the age of quarrel and hypocrisy" |
YourHumbleServant, Gadadhara das --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Howard Charles Best <hbe...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Gadadhara das
Nov 8, 2015, 5:54:53 PM11/8/15
to istag...@googlegroups.com, hbe...@gmail.com, alice...@att.net
| "The only way he'd accept disciples is if he is ordered to do so by
his spiritual master. No one is a bona fide spiritual master unless he
has been personally ordered to accept disciples by his bona fide
spiritual master." |
| This is a valid point also. But if someone is empowered then they are empowered. So if some one becomes successful and Srila Prabhupada comes to them in a dream and instructs them to be Guru,... there is always the chance of that happening. YourHumbleServant, Gadadhara das --- On Sun, 11/1/09, wrote: |
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mario beckman
Nov 4, 2009, 3:22:24 AM11/4/09
to istag...@googlegroups.com
Hare Krishna , prabs..whats the latest in B-town
Been a week in Idia, mostly Vrindavan...finally getting purified and back on track.
I was thinking of paying Radha Vallabha a visit, what was the room # at the MVT?
Headed to Jaipur on riday with Kuva, to meet up with Nimai. Hope all is well.
y/s
maha
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:06:19 -0800
From: cc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Goru
To: hbe...@gmail.com; alice...@att.net
CC: istag...@googlegroups.com
Been a week in Idia, mostly Vrindavan...finally getting purified and back on track.
I was thinking of paying Radha Vallabha a visit, what was the room # at the MVT?
Headed to Jaipur on riday with Kuva, to meet up with Nimai. Hope all is well.
y/s
maha
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:06:19 -0800
From: cc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Siddhaswarupa...Goru
To: hbe...@gmail.com; alice...@att.net
CC: istag...@googlegroups.com
| "The only way he'd accept disciples is if he is ordered to do so by
his spiritual master. No one is a bona fide spiritual master unless he
has been personally ordered to accept disciples by his bona fide
spiritual master." This is a valid point also. But if someone is empowered then they are empowered. So if some one becomes successful and Srila Prabhupada comes to them in a dream and instructs them to be Guru,... there is always the chance of that happening. YourHumbleServant, Gadadhara das |
| --- On Sun, 11/1/09, alice...@att.net <alice...@att.net> wrote: |
|
To: "Howard Charles Best" <hbe...@gmail.com>, "Gadadhara das" <cc...@yahoo.com> |
Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 4:27 PM |
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