Working with children

[Radha]

Friends
If anyone has been using TO with children, would you please write to
us ?
I have taken two sessions so far with a mixed-age group of children,
and the experience is so unlike working with adults that I am not even
sure how to talk about it!
First of all, children enter into games for pure fun. Of course it
helps that they have not been given the name 'Theatre of the
Oppressed' yet. I don't know that I will, but i don't know.
That's another of the things about working with children. From minute
to minute you are thinking,changing, modifying, adapting, and watching
every word of your instructions- everything that you do with any
workshop, but magnified ten times.Am i grateful that I have over 25
years of classroom practice!
And they say the craziest things."I like Zip Zap Zop because of the
dying!" or "like Zip Zap Zop because it's so confusing!"
I have 4 more sessions to go, and I look forward to these with the
eagerness of a new learner.
Would love to hear from anyone else lucky enough to work with
children.
Radha

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>>If anyone has been using TO with children, would you please write to
us ?

No. I have not been using TO with children; but, I am still going to
write!!
For, if you wait for contributions only from tose who do work on TO
with cjhilren, you will not get any.
I have look hard at all that is available on the web for some
authentic account of authentic TO with children - in the sense that TO
is used with adults and I have not been able to find a single one.
There are occasional examples or suggestions of use of Forum theater
in cases such as bullying in school - but nothing beyond that.

Way should that be?
Why not?
Because TO is no child's play...Why even a 'very intelligent' adult
like me cannot understand it :-)

In medical schools, the moment you start doing your pediatric
rotations as a medical student, one of the first things that you are
taught is that children are not small adults and perhaps that small
children are not "small - big" children. It is all in the brain and
the brain keeps changing markedly in the pediatric age group .. well
into the teens . And TO is all about the brain.
So, the question I want to ask is - is TO - in the real sense - at
all, 'applicable' to children ?
Which leads to the questions to you Radha.
Why did you want to do TO in Children in the first place?
What was the "result" - if any, you were hoping to achieve?
Or were you just doing to to "see"?

It would also be intersting to to know if the Theater that you did
with the kids (BTW, what age?) was more of "a normal theater" stripped
of the 'complexities' of TO (at least in the first instance)?
In which case I know of at least three people in the Bombay group -
Tasneem, Shaizia and Shruti who have vast experience of working in
schools with children of all ages and doing theater classes with them

Tasneem, Shaizia, Shruiti:,You three have immense experience in this
field. It would be nothing but sheer selfishness on you part if you do
not care to share your experience with us on this forum.. and I know
you wonderful ladies are faaaar from selfish :-)

More later...:-)

Ravi.

[Radha]

Ravi,
Maybe it's because you do NOT do TO, that your questions are so sharp!
Some of them had me saying 'ouch!'
Yes, Tasneem, Shaizia, Shruti, PLEASE share!!
Meanwhile, Ravi, your questions are extremely useful, to answer them
'properly', I need lots of time, lots of brain/muscle power, and
space- not sure if everyone on this thread wants to read a full
fledged article.
But i shall reply to all your questions, in about a week's time, when
i shall have completed my first round of TO sessions, with my first
batch of children, and maybe have some data to base my observations
on.
radha ( busy working on Jaya- style cape )

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>.radha ( busy working on Jaya- style cape )
Nothing compared to the "Lead Aprons" we radiologists use to protect
ourselves from other doctors - both of Medical and of the Theater
kind :-)

RR

[Radha]

Hi all,
I'm cutting and pasting a response from Ravi Ramaswamy to my post on
working with children. And I'm following it up with my reply.
In case people noticed the common surname,yes, Ravi is my son, and he
works with the NGO APSA in Bangalore. He did the Bangalore training
with Marc. Hee's working on a project called SHIP ( Sexual Health
Intervention Programme) and does a lot of work with children and
teenagers. To avoid confusion between the two Ravi's, since the other
Ravi is already active on this forum as 'Ravi', I suggest we call this
Ravi 'RaviR'.

Response from Ravi R: "In my view TO with children is very useful and
challenging. Children love activities/games like zip, zap, zop as its
fun and also
confusing and their sharing about what this game was about is natural.
They like to have fun but at the same time the relation of TO to their
lives is what will get them interested. e.g. looking at the issue of
bullying or teasing. TO can really help children to look at this
deeply through forum/image theatre.
How do we progress from fun to looking at themselves more deeply?
Well, my opinion is that after activities/ games, having a reflection
sessions helps. Using examples that the children can identify with can
be a spark which is enough for
the children to open up.
At times i feel TO with adults is very hard as compared to TO with
children. Children are far better at absorbing TO style sessions
whereas adults at times do tend to dismiss it as just theatre.
Though with children the joker needs to be more observant, more sharp
and constantly modifying as required.

Hope this was helpful?
Ravi"
Dear RaviR
Welcome to the group! and thank you for your response.It certainly is
very useful, because it has raised more questions!:-)
I can see from the tone of your response that there must have been
some pretty powerful sharing in your SHIP sessions. When you say that
children enjoy fun but also "the relation of TO to their lives is what
will get them interested", I'm wondering if you're thinking of long
term engagement, such as SHIP does, or do you think this is true of
one-off TO workshops also?
Also, I'm thinking age would make a big difference here.
As for your point about reflection after exercise/game, I couldn't
agree more.I have been saying this on this forum several times, and in
several ways, but working with children has once again confirmed, for
me, the absolutely vital role of debrief and therefore the skills of
the Joker.
I am not sure about your last observation though, Ravi. Adults versus
children- could you maybe give an example to illustrate your point? or
elaborate on why you think children receive TO better than adults?
Radha


On May 23, 10:47 pm, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> I'm cutting and pasting a response from Ravi Ramaswamy to my post on
> working with children.

Ravi R, welcome to the group.. I have been waiting hopefully and long
for your participation ( Meera is the other) and in the initial posts
you will see I have called myself "Ravi Ramakantan" to avoid confusion
with your name!!

>>To avoid confusion between the two Ravi's, since the other
>> Ravi is already active on this forum as 'Ravi', I suggest we call this
> Ravi 'RaviR'.

I would rather have him called Ravi Jr. for Ravi R was my Official
school name; but then it is not fair to overrule a mother's wish and
not safe to disobey the bosses's command!! :-)
-----------------
So, I now see that I am up against a 'full' family!! Radha!! Not fair
of you to call for reinforcements :-)

And Jaya cape or not, here are my first bullets:
1. We cannot put 'children' in one basket.
2. Intuitively and having played a lot with kids till a few years ago
( I still play with toy trains) , I feel kids less than 10 can enjoy
theater fun but not understand TO.
3. Then with older kids, things may be possible and get complicated
too. I think, it is totally unpredictable how these children will
react - to say, Image theater and at what at 'depth' they will
understand it.
4. I grant that for these kids, Forum theater may be useful and
thought provoking on matters that relate to them.
5. Finally, I will wait for Radha's answer to my question "What are we
trying to achieve with these TO sessions for children" If this can be
defined, we can start working on how to evaluate this.
I am getting nit-picky and "scientific" about this, as, in the absence
of reasonable literature on this, I see this as path-breaking work and
we should use this experience to learn and disperse that knowledge
gained from these sessions.So the more the "scientific" art we
practice, the better..

I fully accept that the above are just hunches and gut feelings and I
would be very happy to be proved wrong by solid 'data' and real shop-
floor experience.

But, the Real McCoy is yet to come :-)

Ravi Ramakantan

[John Tharakan]

Just a brief comment on children and TO:
I have not tried out TO with the children after our workshop. I intend to do
it after a while, when I have time and they are back.

1. I am inclined to believe that Theatre is good for children. they are just
at home with that.
2. They are an oppressed lot. So TO would be excellent for them.
3. They understand at their level. We understand at our level. It is time
that we stop comparisons.
4. If we still want to compare: it is more difficult for us adults to go to
their level than..... "The Little Prince" may throw some light here!

My Conclusion: Let us go ahead and do TO with any group, including children,
provided we feel confident and competent, and are able to pace with them.
TD John

[Radha]

Somne responses to Ravi and John:
Ravi, thanks for finding out for us that there is no literature
available on TO with children. It now becomes really exciting to
collect data on all our experiences. But as you point out, it also
puts responsibility on us to approach this work carefully, not
casually.
In the light of this, I am very grateful for John's observations.
First of all, to point out that children need TO, being oppressed,
generally.Secondly, "They understand at their level. We understand at

our level. It is time

that we stop comparisons." Absolutely! I would go further and say,
don't even use the word 'level'. The differences are probably not that
of level or degree of understanding, but the nature of understanding,
or the processing.
And here, I find myself in the dark. Children ( and i'm aware of your
objection to this generic title,Ravi, and I agree with your point
about huge differences between age groups.- I'm using this generic
title here simply because it seems ok to do so for this particular
point) and what they do with experiences and churned up feelings and
emotions are not something i know about in any way other than through
my own experiences as a child and as a parent and teacher.
There are at least a few people in this group who have worked with,
who work with children. I am thinking of asking for time with Dr
Shekar Seshadri of NIMHANS- many of you know him- he uses a lot of TO
in his work with teenagers. This should give us some useful medical
perspective also.If you have any more ideas for how we may 'arm'
ourselves for this work ( not just to face Ravi's bullets!:-) please
share.
Radha

[Ravi Ramakantan]

After a family, with John joining in, I thought I was up against the
whole city..but, thankfully, Radha with her moderate response, has
shored-up my courage to respond. The most I have heard of
participant's experiences image theater are from Radha and each time I
have looked at her in disbelief as to how such a medium can be so
powerful With almost no experience of participation (or for that
matter even observation) in this, I had to resort to being a "theory
master" . There are many many references in TO literature to the
"psycho" part of Image theater and Rainbow of Desire - in fact, this
is the part that seems to be working. For example look at these quotes
(sorry, I do now have the original references with me now).
---------------------------------------------
Image Theatre uses the human body as a tool of representing feelings,
ideas, and relationships. Through sculpting others or using our own
body to demonstrate a body position, participants create anything from
one-person to large-group image sculptures that reflect the sculptor's
impression of a situation or oppression.

The Rainbow of Desire is Boal's extraordinary effort to apply TO
approaches, especially Image Theatre, as a way of offering a
systematic psychotherapeutic technique. Although too extensive both in
theory and practice to summarize adequately here, suffice it to say
that the Rainbow work seeks to exteriorize interior feelings and
relationships, but to use a collaborative process.
------------------------------------------------
If after reading the above, you all feel that is OK to "casually" work
with children in the same vein as you do with adults using these
techniques, I would indeed be worried. I think, one needs to
understand from experts (Shubhangi, any thoughts?) on what , if any,
adverse effects these could have on children of various ages.

I may be being over cautious.. but, I do worry about such issues;
after all these are "normal" children and we do not want even a small
percentage of them to be hurt.
If nothing else, I feel, this is a matter for careful documentation
and research.

Ravi

[John Tharakan]

A word on what the children understand:
In the context of Andhra Pradesh department of education introducing Human
Rights Education in all the government primary and middle schools of the
state, I asked separately two children (boy: class 8 and girl: class 7)
about human rights education in their private/corporate schools. Each one
went through the topics in the teachers manual and said, our teachers cannot
understand all these. The boy added: The Headmaster does not understand what
human rights are. He does not even know about child rights. He knows only
how to beat children. The girl said she would get her class to start human
rights programmes!
I wonder why the participants from Bosco, Bangalore and Navajeevan,
Vijayawada are not responding about TO with children!
TD John

[Radha]

After reading Ravi's mail and John's response, I wonder if a few of
the things we're saying are the result of some confusion? the
confusion arising from trying to address several questions together,
and basing what we say on some assumptions.
The different questions people are addressing:
1. whether children can enter as deeply into TO as adults, whether
we.as facilitators, can take TO as far with children as with adults
(Does this mean the same as: can children "understand" issues as
adults do?
2. can we use the generic term for children of all ages? responses and
abilities vary hugely at different ages, within childhood
3. Should we, as facilitators, be more concerned about doing TO with
children, than when we work with adults?The reasons could be several,
perhaps the most important being that children may not have learnt to
process the inputs TO will give them, and struggle with unidentified
strong feelings and responses. What is the facilitator's
responsibility here?

Ravi, the quotes you give underline the importance of being aware of
what TO can do, whether with adults or with children. All of us who
did the training saw the power of Rainbow, and perhaps also remember
what Marc said, about never doing it with a group unless the group has
built a close relationship. Every exercise and game and structure in
the TO arsenal comes with similar cautionary instructions.
Let me add something else I learnt from Marc. It is good to be
careful, to be aware of the framework of each structure. At the same
time,it's also important to recognize that no matter how much care you
take, sometimes the reality of a workshop breaks out of all frameworks
and the facilitator is left to cope as best she can.
My question to the group is simply: does anyone out there have any
inputs on special care they took with children- and please specify age
groups- such as keeping parents informed( in case there are parents in
the picture), looking out for reactions, avoiding certain words or
certain exercises, modifying language or even the exercise itself,
etc.Specific instances will help tremendously.
Radha

On May 25, 8:43 pm, "John Tharakan" <tdjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A word on what the children understand:
> In the context of Andhra Pradesh department of education introducing Human
> Rights Education in all the government primary and middle schools of the
> state, I asked separately two children (boy: class 8 and girl: class 7)
> about human rights education in their private/corporate schools. Each one
> went through the topics in the teachers manual and said, our teachers cannot
> understand all these. The boy added: The Headmaster does not understand what
> human rights are. He does not even know about child rights. He knows only
> how to beat children. The girl said she would get her class to start human
> rights programmes!
> I wonder why the participants from Bosco, Bangalore and Navajeevan,
> Vijayawada are not responding about TO with children!
> TD John
>

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Radha: Your post above is a perfect sum-up of the issues here - even as I see them.

 

But I too deserve some compliments  - for digging out these references :-) ...

 

Erikson's stages of Development of Child's Psychological Profile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson's_stages_of_psychosocial_development

 

A Developmental Psychoeducational Perspective :
Theatre of the Oppressed and Developmental Psychology
http://kaharris.iweb.bsu.edu/RainbowEssay3.htm

And, a 'Nobel Prize in Theater research' for the scoop of the year which is in the attachment. A 2005 paper entitled "T.O. in Children : A field Experiment" !!

 

Could anyone have asked for more?!

 

Ravi.

 

[Radha]

At our first annual TO conference in Jan 2012, Ravi, you will be given
a medal, and a certificate, and there will be a photograph to post on
the forum too!:-)
Thank you!
I'm truly grateful.
radha

On May 26, 10:11 pm, "Ravi Ramakantan" <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Radha: Your post above is a perfect sum-up of the issues here - even as I see them.
>
> But I too deserve some compliments  - for digging out these references :-) ...
>

> Erikson's stages of Development of Child's Psychological Profilehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson's_stages_of_psychosocial_develop...
>
> A Developmental Psychoeducational Perspective :
> Theatre of the Oppressed and Developmental Psychologyhttp://kaharris.iweb.bsu.edu/RainbowEssay3.htm

>
> And, a 'Nobel Prize in Theater research' for the scoop of the year which is in the attachment. A 2005 paper entitled "T.O. in Children : A field Experiment" !!
>
> Could anyone have asked for more?!
>
> Ravi.
>

>  TO in Children Field Experiment.pdf
> 1865KViewDownload

[John Tharakan]

Congrats Ravi.
The information in the research article is excellent. I will surely benefit
from the information and I will have greater courage to experiment with TO
with our children here whom I call THE SEEKERS.
I appreciate your care in being ethical about the work you do. And a million
thanks!
And Radha, for being a real teacher, helping to bring out the best in
people, the maieutics process of Socrates!
TD John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Radha" <radharam...@gmail.com>
To: "Theatre of the Oppressed in India" <ind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: Working with children

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>>At our first annual TO conference in Jan 2012, Ravi, Ravi, you will be given
a medal,..
>>Radha.
Great. I hope that would be in Stockholm, Sweden.. and I travel only
Business Class :-)

>.The information in the research article is excellent. I will surely benefit
> from the information .. TD John.
I am happy that this may be of help, John. And if I am in a mood and
feel up to it, I may do some more digging over the weekend!

Ravi.

[Radha]

My goodness, John, this forum is getting too learned for me!But
thanks!:-)
There's a lot of useful stuff in the material you sent, Ravi. Some of
it reassures me about what we're doing, some of it is sending me back
to Boal, which is always a good thing.
Meanwhile, today was the last of my 6 sessions with my batch of 12
children. A lot of 'feel good' stuff. The children clamouring for
more, parents asking " They just love your classes, but what exactly
do you do?"
I ahve a lot of questions, and i ahve taken a couple of decisions:
- to do a short session for the parents, so they experience TO for
themselves, and know what the children will be doing.
- to focus on one age group. I need some help here. 9-11 or 10-12
years? Or something else? Some of the reading material we've got might
help. I know that however i group, a few of the children from this
batch will be left out, and that will make me feel terrible!Tough
decision!
Some pictures from my sessions with the children are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/radharamaswamy08/ChildrenSTOMay2011?authkey=Gv1sRgCLiaqtXs1c7pUA#
Two of the mothers came and participated today. The children allowed
it.
radha

On May 27, 10:33 pm, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>>. I know that however i group, a few of the children from this
>>batch will be left out,

If there are only 12 kids, why would you want to select from them? If
you have a clear answer to this, you will automatically know who
should get left out.
If 'age' is the reason you want to divide - then NOT dividing gets you
ages 9-12 and dividing 10-12 - I would think that does not count for
much of a difference (in any case, we need not bother about the upper
age limit).
So, after this confusing response, my vote is for take "all" or take
the oldest 6 (or whatever) kids.

BTW, you must be the only simultaneous practitioner of Geriatrics and
Pediatrics!!!

Ravi.

[Shaibya Saldanha]

Dear Radha,
I have worked with children in areas of life skills and health and
personal safety, using more of the 'Circle time' methodology which is
different from TO. However the facilitation is similar as one needs to
be sensitive to what the kids are going through and ensure the space
is physically and emotionally safe. The honesty and ability to think
simply and accurately lasts in children till adults mess them up with
'should do', 'shouldn't do' and 'what will people say?' !!!
Children need the vocabulary to express their thoughts and feelings
and they need role models to learn effective communication and other
life skills. if they get that, then the world is their oyster. We also
need to trust them to live their own lives and make their own
decisions ( including mistakes!). As adults, our primary aim could be
to create safe spaces for expression and action.
Shaibya


On May 28, 11:00 pm, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Sorry; but, you will have to translate that into English for me,
Shaibya :-)

Ravi Ramakantan.

[Ravi Ramakantan]

The correct, current link to the "Children's TO workshop" by Radha..
that she has cited in her post above now is:
https://picasaweb.google.com/105025156773433645960/ChildrenSTOMay2011#

Ravi Ramakantan

[Radha]

Dear Shoiba
Well put, and I don't think there can be any difference of opinion on
what you have said "As adults, our primary aim could be to create safe

spaces for expression and action."

The question for budding TO practitioners, and I'm assuming everyone
on this forum is one, is how exactly do we do that- specifically,
questions such as what ages, what games, what modifications, what
vocabulary,etc.
Any sharing of this nature will be valuable.
Radha

[Radha]

Dear Ravi,
for some time now, interacting with so many doctors, I've been feeling
that medicine is a profession i really missed! So your honorary
degrees in geriatrics and paediatrics are very welcome indeed! Thank
you!:-)
As for the children i worked with, and the dilemma of who to leave
out, the problem arises because of the wide spectrum - 7-13 years. If
i decide to keep all the ones between 9-13, I would be leaving out
just the one 7 year old. That would seem cruel. But i might have to do
that.
I would also be opening up the group. I would like to work with 15-20
children, and I suppose if there's an evenly spread-out mix of ages
between 9 and 12, that should be ok. I also need to keep an eye on the
gender ratio.
But i shall wait to see how the children feel after a few weeks of
school. That also gives me time to prepare myself!
Radha

[Shaibya Saldanha]

Ravi,
Don't be wicked! Will you please tell me what part of my mail was in
double Dutch? My whole medical life, I have been trying to get rid of
medical jargon and speak in clear tongues, and now you accuse me of
mendacity or confabulation, or just plain meretriciousness!
BTW, I am talking in abstract notions which are very concrete to me.
Shaibya

On May 29, 11:12 am, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> Don't be wicked! Will you please tell me what part of my mail was in

> double Dutch? .. Shaibya
What a way to start the day... with a great hearty laugh.. Thanks, Shaibya!!
What did I not understand?.. ask Snoopy !!

But, you are in esteemed company. It took me three years to get Radha to speak in "aam janta" English!!

 

>>and now you accuse me of mendacity or confabulation,
>>or just plain meretriciousness! > BTW, I am talking in abstract

>>notions which are very concrete to me...Shaibya
Yes. of course, that was perfectly intelligible.. even to my intelligence ; I just needed to consult four dictionaries and seven thesaurusses..thesauri.. whatever !!:-)

 

Ravi.

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> for some time now, interacting with so many doctors, I've been feeling
> that medicine is a profession i really missed!

You have NO idea, what a narrow escape we docs have had :-)

> I would also be opening up the group...if there's an evenly spread-out mix of ages..need to keep an eye on the > gender ratio.
Gender ratio? that's a new one.. so you have some reason to think
about that....maybe you have something there .. my 'extensive reading'
of the literature on Pediatric TO tells me that girls are always more
forthcoming than boys in participating.. no wonder... considering that
an average "female of our species" speaks twice as many words in a
lifetime as the male Homo sapiens" does!!
But, seriously, that is something you can look at.
Also, it is my gut feeling (but just that) that even at 9-13 ,these
kids will not be able to work at the "depth" of TO. Since you seem to
have this captive population of neighbourhood kids, it would be
interesting to ask them, say after 5 years, what this TO exposure did
to them.
Who said good research was easy work??!! BTW, do you have any openings
for an "under study' :-) ??

Ravi.

[Shaibya Saldanha]

> >>and now you accuse me of mendacity or confabulation,
> >>or just plain meretriciousness! > BTW, I am talking in abstract
> >>notions which are very concrete to me

Ravi,
I promise, no footnotes!
I added all those words to do a 'Woodstock' on you!

To return to the subject of involving children in TO. As I had
mentioned earlier, I have done Circle Time with kids. this was an
amazing concept started in the UK by a teacher, Jenny Mosley.
It entails sitting in a circle. Which actually is a subtle way of
ensuring that heirarchy is broken and the facilitator or Joker is at
the same level as the participants. It also ensures that each
participant has eye contact with all others and the joker is also
aware of each person in the circle.
There are a series of 5 steps involving movement, warming up,
questioning, answers from the group and solutions being being
addressed. The essence being that the facilitator/joker guides the
group but the concerns and solutions come from within the group.
Everybody gets to speak so there are less chances of an individual
getting 'left out' or feeling unimportant.
There is again a closure activity at the end of the class.
Shaibya






On May 31, 6:34 am, "Ravi Ramakantan" <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Foot notes.jpg
> 89KViewDownload

[Ravi Ramakantan]

You may not believe this, Shaibya, I am way more crazy than you can
imagine :-). Last year, even when I was Prof. at KEM, I attended a
full, four day Teacher training workshop in Bombay - meant for Primary
school teachers - conducted by the Teacher Training Foundation of
Bangalore for Muktangan - a NGO in Bombay.That's were I saw and
participated in Circle Time for the first time. I was the only Male -
all of 57 years of age, amongst 20years old "girls"...I participated
fully in the activities set out by the facilitator...it was great
experience.. I was amazed by the enthusiasm of those school teachers
and could not help but lament the huge contrast with the (generally)
uninspired medical teachers of today and the ultra drab Medical
Education Technology programs that we keep dishing out year after
year..

That's why I am so interested in cross pollination of cultures between
the Arts and Medicine and am ever so grateful to those that introduced
me to this .. I keep learning!!

Have I hijacked this thread?.. Sorry; if you feel so; but, I think not
- for, my interest in TO is mainly from a Medical Humanities and
Education point of you rather than its "social and political" aspects.

Ravi.

[Radha]

>>> You have NO idea, what a narrow escape we docs have had :-)

Ravi, you're gloating too soon, no?

> Gender ratio? that's a new one.. !
not new, at all, just something women have been aware of for millions
of years. And it's not just about 'opening up' more, or talking more.
How could you, Ravi?
In fact, in workshops where there have been more boys than girls, the
girls are completely silenced.And that is just one aspect of the ratio
business!

> Also, it is my gut feeling (but just that) that even at 9-13 ,these kids will not be able to work at the "depth" of TO.

There you go again! about 'depth'- and children- as if there's some
specific content to be delivered. I think this needs lots more
discussion. Maybe a face-to-face meeting, maybe a conference!

>>captive population of neighbourhood kids, it would be interesting
to ask them, say after 5 years, what this TO exposure did to them.

Not a bad idea, but definitely a long term project, and so, yes, a
research assistant post is very much on the cards!
Radha

[Ravi Ramakantan]

And my remarks about "girls being more participatory than boys" was in
the context of a paper I read on the conduct of a extended TO Module
in a school (I think I sent a link to that to you). And my remarks
about relative talkativeness of males and females was a scientifically
accurate aside.. and nothing more.

> There you go again! about 'depth'- and children- as if there's some
> specific content to be delivered.

Mmmm. By "depth" I did not mean "depth of content delivery" but, the
depth of perception,understanding and rumination and therefore
reaction to a given exercise by kids of different ages as opposed to
average reactions of adults. This is also what I had wanted to ask
Shaibya . Whether she sees "Circle Time" as being in the same league
as TO Exercises - I don't.

>> I think this needs lots more discussion.
>> Maybe a face-to-face meeting, maybe a conference!

So... yes.yes. I agree.. we need a conference - with the fire-brigade
standing by - seeing that the only thing we have easily agreed on so
far is that the sun rises in the East - perhaps :-)

Ravi.

[Radha]

>>, what a narrow escape we docs have had :-)

Spoken too soon, no?:-)

> Gender ratio? that's a new one.. that girls are always more

> forthcoming than boys in participating.. no wonder... considering that

> an average "female of our species" speaks twice as many words ...

Nothing new, Ravi. Something that women have known about for millions
of years. AND, please, it's not about girls "speaking more" or being
more "forthcoming"!
There's many aspects to this, we need a separate discussion. Maybe
someone with lots of expoereicne of working with women and men could
start a new thread? Shoiba?

> Also, it is my gut feeling (but just that) that even at 9-13 ,these kids will not be able to work at the "depth" of TO.

There you go again, Ravi! John, be my guest- and finish him properly
this time!

>>Since you seem to have this captive population of neighbourhood kids, it would be interesting to ask them, say after 5 years, what this TO exposure did to them.

That definitely sounds like a serious long term project. And yes, I
would need a research assistant, Ravi- how does June 2012 sound to
you, for a preliminary discussion?:-)
Radha

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>> And yes, I > would need a research assistant, Ravi-

>>how does June 2012 sound to you, for a preliminary discussion?:-)

Sure. Why not... you may be rid of me for 12 months, but,, then .. Time flies :-)

So that first paper will be entitled  "12 month Follow Up on .. " (That's FIVE original reports over 5 years!).. I am all for CV padding (and gift authorship)!!

> There you go again, Ravi! John, be my guest- and finish him properly
> this time!

Radha. I see you are giving up on me :-)

Now,  there is no levity in what I say.

I must confess that I have often found in discussions with you and others here that the way you guys think .. and may be many from the humanities think..  is very different from what I am able to "think". Ideas and concepts that seem obvious to you, seem to be 'beyond my comprehension". Obviously, there is some learning to be had here. Assuming that I am endowed with average intelligence, this is something that many of us in the sciences ..totally unexposed to the arts may be experiencing.. some the words, phrases and concepts may seem foreign.

I know many doctors here screaming "Ravi, speak for yourself"; but I hope they say atleast that!

I concede I may be being stupid; but, you must grant that "it does have a quality all its own!! :-)

 

 

Ravi.

[Radha]

My apologies to the group- for double posting!
I forgot that i had already responded to Ravi's mail on June 2, and
wrote almost the same email again on 3rd- yesterday.
However, reading the two posts today, i discovered that in my later
post, i'm appealing for help from John and Shoiba. This to me is very
interesting, in the light of Ravi's latest post- about the man of
science requiring a bridge course to 'understand' some of the meanings
'we of the humanities' seem to easily get.
I'm thinking that Shoiba, a medical doctor, has already travelled
that bridge, because of the nature of her work outside of medicine,
strictly and narrowly defined.Although i know very little of that
work, from her writing I come to this conclusion.Gender too plays a
huge role here. Yes, Ravi, gender again!:-)
And i'm not "giving up" on you Ravi, just gathering resources to deal
with a phenomenon with "a quality all its own".
Radha



On Jun 3, 9:49 pm, "Ravi Ramakantan" <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Quality of its own.gif
> 17KViewDownload

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>>Gender too plays a
> huge role here. Yes, Ravi, gender again!:-)

Yes.I readily acknowledge this. after all, there is nothing common
between male and female brains.

I am sort using this forum now, for some "intellectual" discussion on
the Humanities Vs the Sciences. It will be a long post; but then I
have the luxury of a weekend - audience or no audience.
Radha, you must pardon me here - some of this - you have already heard
from me. I hope some others in the group too can respond - I am esp.
looking for Meera's response and am actually copying this to her!!

So, it was about two years ago.almost 40 years after leaving high
school, I sat through a English Poetry class in one of the fancy
schools and the lady teaching was supposed to be a great teacher. At
the end of the 45 min. period, through which I sat in rapt attention,
I came out with this thought:
"What a waste of time.. what use all this?".
In fact in one hour at KEM, I would have taught my bacchus how to
diagnose pneumotharax on a supine chest film 1000 times over and SAVE
LIVES. That's was REAL teaching to me.
A year or so later, I sat through another poetry class of another
great English teacher discussing WW's "Daffodils". Now all of us have
learnt this poem in school days.. but this teacher was discussing this
poem at a totally different level. As the lecture went on, it became
more and more apparent to me was that this poem could be subject to
multiple interpretations.. THERE WAS SCOPE FOR ORIGINALITY OF THOUGHT
and INTERPRETATION.
As if in an enlightened moment, . I was really struck by this
difference between what we teach in Medical Schools and what I had
heard taught in the Daffodils lecture.
In Medicine we "straight jacket" students.

Around this time, I was introduced to the word "reflect" and I sort of
intuitively realised that "reflect" is not quite the same as "think".
In fact, in all my 30 years' medical teaching career, I do not ever
remember telling my students to 'reflect' on something. And if there
is any medical teacher here who says he or she has done so, I am
willing to bet he/she is lying.
So, I started asking these medical UG and PG kids:
"When was the last time that you "reflected" on any problem or
question in medicine?".
I must have done this to over a 1000 kids (age 20-27) over 2 years..
and there was NOT ONE HAND THAT went up!!
So much for original thought in medical education. I am sure, if my
son is to be believed, Engineering or the physical sciences are not
much different.
Which brings me to the term "Two Cultures" and the article entitled "
The Two Cultures and the Scientific Revolution" by the legendary CP
Snow. He wrote this in 1959. The Full text of that article is
available at this link and I would hope that many of you will read
this.
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5110/snow_1959.pdf

I would like to quote , from this rather long article, some
interesting observations by Snow
.. Literary intellectuals at on pole - at the other scientists - and,
as the most representative, the physical scientists. Between the two
is a gulf of mutual incomprehension - sometimes (particularly amongst
the young) hostility and dislike, but most of all lack of
understanding. They have a curious distorted image of each other.
Their attitudes are so different that, even at the level of emotion,
they can't find much common ground. Non scientists tend to think of
scientists as brash and boastful....The degree of incomprehension on
the two sides is a kind of joke - gone sour.. There is only one way
out of all this: it is, of course , by rethinking our education;;
school education...nearly everyone will agree that our school
education is too specialised...."

So when I hear the word "safe space". I have all sorts of problem
relating to this, I understand "safe" and I understand "space".. and I
THINK I know what 'space space" means... but then again, I perhaps I
wonder if I know what ALL it REALLY means :!!

So much for a "phenomenon with a quality all its own" :-)

Ravi.

[Charu]

Hi Ravi,
Though it's not a weekend and you're looking out for other responses,
here are thoughts I want to share with you :-)

I just don't see how 'humanities' can be separated from the 'sciences'
but in the world we live in - it is (and HOW separate!!) and here we
are - discussing the separation as people from two 'sides'! Ironic. Is
a mild description.

I chose to study 'science' in the first two years of college (normally
called 11th and 12th std) as I was not sure what I wanted to 'be' or
do and my father said that anyone doing well in their 10th class
should take 'science'. 'Science is for brainy people' was the
underlying message.

I HATED science in the 11th and 12th - found it too theoretical and
abstract and vague - especially physics. Those two years helped me
cyrstallise what I DID NOT want to do in my life and made me certain
that my place was in - what you are now calling - the humanities. So I
experienced the two fields as 'being separate' at that stage.

Yet, even at that point - i felt that - all of this is essential to
humanity but my place is not here. I never expected people from
science or most of the world's population to look down on or think
nothing of people in 'arts.' This is still happening and we all know
that boys (the gender angle!) taking up 'humanities' are pitied even
more etc. Basically science is considered more important or
'necessary' in the world. Art is trivial or the decoration. Not the
meat, we are told. But that is another thread...

Anyway, so, later in my life I met people who loved and lived music
and felt its poetry was closest only to maths! Ouch.

I met people who found 'art' in making a machine run! Who talked to
motorcycles to make them work better and who urged the vegetables in
the sambar to cook. Craftspersons who 'intuitively' knew the warp and
weft calculations as they wove the most beautiful ikkat fabric (a
fabric from Orissa, Andhra and Gujrath that is made from threads that
are dyed at intervals in different colours). So here were people who
did not separate the mechanics from the soul of an activity. Whose
actions suggested that the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

Even later I met doctors (ok.. I can see you sitting up..) who spoke
of cancer cells as if they were not attached to a human body with a
real and active mind. I heard their predictions. Took them very
seriously though the person in question showed none of the signs they
promised. We ran the drill they set us off on and we saw them eat
their words in the face of a very stubborn patient who simply believed
she had a lot to live for. This meeting-the-doctor-disconnected-from-
reality business kept happening in different contexts and pushed me to
switch to 'alternate' forms of medicine which were considered
'unscientific' as their medicines could not be taken apart exactly as
the other ones could.

Despite all this, when I got to know that there was actually a field
of work called medical humanities - I felt like standing open-mouthed
and round eyed and gaping. How could medicine ever be disconnected
from humanities to the extent that one needs to reactivate the human
emotional responses in a doctor who is paramountly a human being?!

We all seem to need a lot of 'rehumanising,' as Boal would say. Market
dynamics, human greed, the pace of life we have set for oursleves,
seem to be increasing the divides we have created for ourselves and
within ourselves.

We are hardly separate from our emotions yet we do not trust that
which makes us tick. Just because we can take things apart, we don't
have to take everything apart. We cannot create a real, whole apple or
the smell of rain with all the cell research in the world.

So, Ravi, science has been deliberately and cunningly and disastrously
been separated from the humanities. I think we should rise above this
by opening our minds and rearranging our thinking and looking at the
larger picture.

Whay do you say?
Charu.

> this.http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5110/snow_1959.pdf

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> Though it's not a weekend and you're looking out for other responses,
> here are thoughts I want to share with you :-)

Not expecting from you??? .. you must be kidding.. that you would
respond sooner or later was a given sinceI was provoking the Bangalore
folks enough.. only Meera seems unperturbed.. may be I should do a
"katti" on her.. if you know Bombay childhood lingo :-)

> should take 'science'. 'Science is for brainy people' was the
> underlying message.

Introduce me to him.. and I promise, he will change his opinion -
stat :-)

> I HATED science in the 11th and 12th - found it too theoretical and
> abstract and vague - especially physics.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?? Physics and abstract??
When are you in Bombay next :-)?

I never expected people from
> science or most of the world's population to look down on or think
> nothing of people in 'arts.' This is still happening and we all know
> that boys (the gender angle!) taking up 'humanities' are pitied even
> more etc. Basically science is considered more important or
> 'necessary' in the world. Art is trivial or the decoration. Not the
> meat, we are told. But that is another thread...

Each of the issues you have raised is worth discussing independently,
even if be just a few of us 'talking' here.

> Anyway, so, later in my life I met people who loved and lived music
> and felt its poetry was closest only to maths! Ouch.

I do not know about Maths and Poetry.. but, Maths and Music use the
same circuits in the brain.. it is a "known fact". One time, I was
watching a NatGeo program on the the discovery of the solution to
"Fermat's Last Theorem".. Towards the end my head was spinning but I
got this peculiar feeling that the solution was beginning to border on
philosophy. Very difficult to explain that feeling.. but, if you have
an opportunity, you should watch this program.

>>So here were people who
> did not separate the mechanics from the soul of an activity. Whose
> actions suggested that the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

I refer to my model locomotives as "he" and "that fellow" .. quite
crazy... must be...

> Even later I met doctors (ok.. I can see you sitting up..)

No. I slumped.. one more to get after us.. poor docs.. we know
nothing!!

> switch to 'alternate' forms of medicine which were considered
> 'unscientific' as their medicines could not be taken apart exactly as
> the other ones could.

As long as you have "DO NO HARM" as your first motto, any system that
works - works!!

> Despite all this, when I got to know that there was actually a field
> of work called medical humanities - I felt like standing open-mouthed
> and round eyed and gaping. How could medicine ever be disconnected
> from humanities to the extent that one needs to reactivate the human
> emotional responses in a doctor who is paramountly a human being?!

The best part of a very, very beautiful essay, Charu.. I am so moved
by the way you say, what you say!!

>>We cannot create a real, whole apple or
> the smell of rain with all the cell research in the world.

Hmmmm...

> So, Ravi, science has been deliberately and cunningly and disastrously
> been separated from the humanities. I think we should rise above this
> by opening our minds and rearranging our thinking and looking at the

> larger picture...Whay do you say?
So, is this the doing of our education system... is non formal
education the solution??.... Pedagogy of the Oppressed - the
fountainhead for Theater of the Oppressed?? Was Paul Freire right? Is
he relevant today.. do I understand him?? ..I plan to start a new
thread on this..if only to expose all my ignorance of pedagogy.. any
pedagogy -

“It is impossible/or any one to begin to learn
what he thinks he already knows.” Epictetus (620 AD.)

Ravi.

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Radha, I have no doubt that just like me, Charu too has been waiting
eagerly to hear your response to our very "learned" discussions..
please do not disappoint us and go into the "sleep" mode like the rest
of the gang !
After all, depending on how badly battered I get here, I will decide
whether to venture into a post on my 'profound observations"(!!) on
POO of Paulo Freire.. BTW, I have trouble even with that spelling!!!

Ravi.

[Shaibya Saldanha]

Dear Charu,
Your musings were profound and felt right.

Ravi, When you teach your students to study a 1000 Xrays in an hour to
diagnose a pnuemothorax, do you also remember to teach them that each
treatment will be different depending on the person who has the
pnuemothorax? That would truly unify the art of healing with the
science of medicine.
I am not spouting new stuff, more than 2000years ago, Hippocrates said
_ it is more important to know what sort of person has a disease than
what sort of disease a person has.
I like Voltaire's statement : "The art of medicine consists of
keeping the patient amused while nature heals the disease" . In our
hurry to diagnose, prognosticate, treat and cure, we forget the
natural wisdom of the human body and its ability to heal and survive.
Shaibya

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> Ravi, When you teach your students t.., do you also remember to teach them that each

> treatment will be different depending on the person who has the
> pnuemothorax? That would truly unify the art of healing with the
> science of medicine.

Interesting that you ask this, Shaibya. As as matter of fact I do, I
probably have always done; but, tend to do it in a more "urgent" way
these last couple of years., I think it must have been close to two
years now, that Radha forwarded me a poem on the theme about illness
and suffering - suggesting I could try use this with medical students.
I, was of course, aghast.. ME?? POETRY?? But, with help and hints
from her, I managed to do this. And I did use these and several other
poems with UG students doing Radiology rotation. This is probably not
the right forum to discuss details of how it was done. Interesting
though that perhaps this was the first time in the 85 history of our
institutions that such a thing was being done. Anyway, the students'
responses were amazing and it did help emphasise about the "Human" in
the patient. I then tried it with a about 300 radiology residents -
that too brought out amazing reactions. We are hoping to write this
experience up.

The short answer to your question is: It it is upto us , medical.
teachers - to change bacchu's behavior towards patients.
As a aside. these discussions between Radha and me were the seed for
KEM faculty and UG students attending Marc's workshop in Bombay.
Following the workshop, when I talked to the three students who
attended,, they generally said that they have been significantly
impacted by the TO workshop experience.
I also feel very proud when I say that it was these interactions
between the "Sciences and the Humanities" that has resulted in the
setting up of the "Medical Humanities Cell" at KEM the first ever in
ant medical School in Bombay!! One more time, we beat JJ :-)

Charu, you are right.. it is strange that we do not consider the
'human' in a doctor.. the 'human' in the patient as we go about out
daily chores of treating diseases, lab values and radiology reports.

Ravi,

[Radha]

Dear all
I shall not attempt to 'better' Charu - saying the same things
differently!
I have just sent off a description of a 30 hour TO course for students
in Mount Carmel College. I was asked to list out the objectives for
the course.This is one of them- "to transcend the artificial
boundaries created by our education system, of ‘Arts’, ‘Science” and
‘Commerce’, and rediscover the ‘human’ in all of us" .
I thought putting it this way would make sense to the students.
As for your question, Ravi, about 'is Freire the answer?', I really
don't know what to say. There are some fundamental concepts in Freire
that are extremely attractive, because they are based on simple truths
about human beings, truths that are being challenged by what we see
around us every day.The real challenge is to belkieve in those truths
in spite of what we see as 'the way the world is'. Is it possible, as
Freire recommends, to completely do away with hierarchy between the
teacher and student? I believe it is an ideal to move towards. At
least we'll reexamine some of the silly, meaningless rituals of
'respect' and authority between teacher and student that exist in our
educational systems.
Freire was writing in a context that called for a certain
articulatory style. But he continues to be an inspiration, and the TO
that we all learnt is definitely built on that bedrock of faith in the
ability of all human beings to think critically, and take decisions
about their lives.Faith in the power of continuous dialogue, which by
the way, is defined as " a way of knowing ... an indispensable
component of the process of both learning and knowing", and " not a
mere tactic to involve students in a task". Dialogue is listening to
understand, and working towards a relationship with the goal of
understanding, knowing.
When our teachers are given training in 'modern teaching methods', to
have interactive classrooms, they ask questions, and involve children
in activities, and believe the classroom is now 'different'. A far cry
from Freire's dream!
Radha

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Radha.. I have been reading.. reading.. reading.. more than I remember
ever reading even for my MD Exam (which really is not saying much,
though)...
Reading not as much Paulo Freire's "Pedagogy of the Oppressed., the
book itself - though substantial parts of this book are available on
Google Books at this link
http://books.google.com/books?id=xfFXFD414ioC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Paulo+freier+pedagogy&hl=en&ei=ZJvvTbrJOpHMrQeroezMBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
But I have been reading about the book.. I must have read most of the
commentaries and critiques of the book that are to be found on the net
and I am beginning to develop a strong opinion on his work which was
only reinforced today when I read the Publisher's Foreward,
Introduction and the Foreward to the book itself.
Knowing that I have trouble even with Shaibya's language, you can
realise how difficult the going is has been for me in this highly
jargonised book with what I believe are atrocious "neologisms". But I
am not giving up...because I can be very stubborn and opinionated!!

Ravi.

[Shaibya Saldanha]

Dear Ravi,
I am glad that you are bringing back the humane aspect of science.
Having been out of Bombay for more than 18 years the rivalry between
JJ and GS, which was such a fundamental part of my college days,
leaves me unbothered. Vasudaiv Kutumbakam starts becoming more real.

Let me obfuscate further ( I love doing this to you, Ravi!) Ontogeny
repeats phyllogeny
Shaibya

On Jun 8, 6:34 am, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Others are going to scream "Foul" for off topic discussions.. but I
still have four fouls left before I get thrown out of the game.

Frankly, Shaibya, with both GS and JJ 'spirits' themselves dying down
substantially (thanks to ALL India Entrance tests), the rivalry
between JJ and GS is no longer so evident...
Besides, I must confess that the GS campus has been flooded by faculty
from JJ over the last couple of decades and now that I out of KEM, I
do not mind admitting that some of the best faculty at KEM today (and
my dear friends) are from JJ!!

And enjoy this story - around 1976.
Dr. SD Deodhar , a die-hard GSite was the 50-year-old Chief of Unit in
Surgery - he was known for his incisive sarcasm and one liners..
Dr. Sudhir Shenoy, from JJ joined that unit as a new "Assoc. Prof",
Dr. Shenoy is a great master of the Eng. language and an
incorrigible punster.

So, day 1 of Sudhir Shenoy .. in the Gen. Surgery OT,

Shenoy to Deodhar " "Good Morning, Sir, I am Dr. Sudhir Shenoy, I have
joined your unit today as AP"
Deodhar "What man, Sudhir. where are you from?
Shenoy" "From JJ sir"
Deodhar "JJ???. What's that, man?"
Shenoy "JJ Hospital Sir,"
Deodhar "Where's JJ, man?"
Shenoy "Between II and KK, Sir"

To this day, they have remained the best of friends!!

>>Ontogeny repeats phyllogeny
That's not very bad.. Manu Kothari, our Prof. of anatomy would lecture
on this for hours...

Ravi.

[Radha]

Shoiba, Ravi, you are warned!

and you shall find out why i am exercising referee rights here- i
cannot figure out relevance of Shoiba's "ontogeny" statement to our
discussion?!

[Ravi Ramakantan]

> and you shall find out why i am exercising referee rights here- i
> cannot figure out relevance of Shoiba's "ontogeny" statement to our
> discussion?!

Shaibya!! You got me into this, now you get me out!! I have no
intention of being chucked out 5 mins into the game!

Ravi.

[Ravi Ramakantan]

You probably know the literal meaning of "Ontogeny repeats
Phylogeny"., Radha.

First the etymology:
Ontogeny:
"development of an individual," 1872, coined from Gk. on (gen. ontos)
"being" (prp. of einai "to be;" see essence) + -geneia "origin," from -
genes "born."

Phylogeny:
"genesis and evolution of a phylum," 1872 (in Darwin), from Ger.
Phylogenie, coined 1866 by Ger. biologist Ernst Heinrich Haeckel
(1834-1919) from Gk. phylon "race" + -geneia "origin," from -genes
"born."
--------------------------------------
There was a theory , now no longer accepted, that when the fertilised
ovum grows in the womb into a human form(ontogeny) , it grows through
stages of all previous life forms(phylogeny) .. something like our
"dasa avatharam".. like at some stage in development of the embryo..
it looks like a fish and the like a tailed animal etc..
So, I guess (and I am not sure I myself I understand Shaibya correctly
here) . what she meant to say was that She (Shabiya) has evolved
beyond the stages of GS-JJ rivalry to be an enlightened soul :-) for
whom "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam".

Am I right Shaibya.. or have I made a greater fool of myself..?
Remember.. we docs always stick together..'against laymen' :-)

RR

If anyone feels like (be warned, there is some graphic content - not
for the weak-hearted) , one example of the inimitable beauty and
wonder of a single cell becoming a full formed human is here at this
link.
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Stages/CStages.htm

[Radha]

Thank you, Ravi. I feel truly enlightened!
Shoiba, if Ravi's explanation is correct, then that indeed was a
beautiful application of the evolutionary metaphor.
Not calling any fouls here- enjoyed this digression.:-)
( this might be a foul, if there was a meta-referee here)

On Jun 10, 11:01 pm, Ravi Ramakantan <ramakantanra...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Ravi Ramakantan]

So, TO is based on POO - Pedagogy of the Oppressed - Paulo Freire's
brainchild in the early 1970s. In devising his PO, Freire, made the
following observations on "education" as it was then. I would lie to
have people's reactions to the following.. esp. in today educational
scenece in India - in schools, colleges .. whatever.

Ravi.
----------------

Paulo Freire's on the "Conventional system of education" - he called
it "the Banking system of education".

a) the teacher teaches and the students are taught;

(b) the teacher knows everything and the students know nothing;

(c) the teacher thinks and the students are thought about;

(d) the teacher talks and the students listen-meekly;

(e) the teacher disciplines and the students are disciplined;

(f) the teacher chooses and enforces his choice, and the students
comply;

(g) the teacher acts and the students have the illusion of acting
through the action of the teacher;

(h) the teacher chooses the program content, and the students (who
were not consulted) adapt to it;

(i) the teacher confuses the authority of knowledge with his own
professional authority, which he sets in opposition to the freedom of
the students;

(j) the teacher is the Subject of the learning process, while the
pupils are mere objects.

[John Tharakan]

Hi Ravi,
I am glad about your analysis of PoO.
There is a verse in the psalm that says:
"They have eyes, but they do not see
They have ears, but they do not hear"
PoO and TO are, I believe, meant to help those who choose to see, hear and
so on.

There is also from South America: Psychology of Liberation.
I am fascinated about that. Ignacio Baro in his "Writings for a psychology
of Liberation"
speaks of socialisation into a dominator model of society.
Education is also meant to serve the same dominant class.
Education continues the process of socialisation at the service of the
dominant clasess!
Are you surprised that the present educational system continues what Paulo
Friere Critiques!!!
Unaware or ignoring that critique!
It is still the same dominator model of society, isn't it?

Following on renaissance and the French Revolution, the 19th century saw a
major shift in education.
The focus shifted from the teacher to the student.
The children and young people began to be valued and respected.
New Educational methods were introduced by Pestalozzi, Rosmini, Montissori,
Don Bosco and so on.
We have these and similar approaches going on side by side the so called
"Corporate schools"
or some would call them "poultry schools" - more or less they run on the
same principles!!!

There is hope and hopelessness going on in parallel. It is for us to choose
and promote a more meaningful way.
What is happening is not by chance! They are choices of some people who take
decisions.
We too need to make different choices.
A better world is still possible!
TD John

[Ravi Ramakantan]

John, I am seriously curious!!
May I ask about your educational background.?. I am deeply impressed
with your writings here.
As for me, and as you probably know, I am a blinkered medical-
science person, a radiologist... purely urban Bombay bred.. I am
deeply interested in education esp. at school level... something I
hope to pursue for much of my time when I am done with medicine in the
next few years...
Poor school kids.. did you say? :-)

BTW, I have some serious questions about the relevance of some of
things that Paulo Freire says in his book POO...Of course , "Who
Cares"?

>>There is hope and hopelessness going on in parallel.
>>It is for us to choose and promote a more meaningful way.

So, what is the "meaningful way", John??
Is everything with modern education system in schools and colleges
wrong? We are products of that system. Are we rotten..?
Questions.. questions.. questions.. hoping everyone will pitch in...
Ravi.

[John Tharakan]

Dear Ravi,
Sorry for the silence.
Suddenly I 'see' silence all around.
I am sitting in a village hoping to connect back!

Ravi, My qualification: nothing special. I happen to take interest in a lot
of things.
And whatever I look at now are through that combined lens.My special
interest is in bringing psychological support to social action.
Hence my interest in wanting to see change in our society, change that is
better; and change that is lasting.

I am not happy about the present society which I consider to be a dominator
model.
Hence I would like to see this change.
Those who are dominated in the system, will want change.

We are definitely products of that system.
We are grateful for so many things for which we have benefitted from the
system.
We are also unhappy about many other things.
So we want those to change.
We need not repeat history.
Hence I suppose I could wish that the educational system too changes.
And Paulo Friere has a lot to offer in this regard.
Bye Ravi
TD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ravi Ramakantan" <ramakan...@gmail.com>
To: "Theatre of the Oppressed in India" <indiato@googlegroI ups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Working with children

[Ravi Ramakantan]

Let me take you on to a different level John.. and you need to be
patient and indulgent when I talk like this. I talk from my own
limited urban perspective.. lived all my life in Bombay.. have seen
almost nothing of rural India... And ofcouse, it is based on my
limited understanding of the essence of POO and I am not at all sure
that that premise may be right. Besides..at such arguments, I am
used to being called - rabid , mad..and some better adjectives....the
redeeming thing about this is that may be the rest of the time I may
be making some sense!!

I do believe that humans have huge biological baggage form animals.
Our brains still have the same and very powerful instincts that
animals do and they control our deep subconscious behaviour. Our
nearest relative the Chimps are something that we need to look it.
everything is the same,.. I am not going to talk of how similar our
DNAs are.. but that there is almost no animal society that does not
have a hierarchy.. from ants to bees.. to lions to elephants and of
course the great apes. That's built in our biology.That's necessary
for the survival of a species. If you change it.. there will be a cost
to the species...

So my first premise is that to say that all humans are equal, in the
literal sense, is not-biological. That it makes good sense in modern
society is a different matter.. but it will never work.. show me one
society where it has worked.. it simply cannot. Not in Russia, not in
the old Eastern Europe not in China.Not even in Cuba!! In fact, the
more leftist the Society, the more the Oppression... because after the
idealistic pioneers, in the followers, the primitive brain instincts
kick in...So all this Marxism that is associated with PO and TO is
something I cannot relate to. It is simply a case of some are more
equal than others. There will be those who "dominate" there will be
those who be dominated.. just as it happens in each home...

Why all this?? Because you talk of a "Dominator" society and you want
to change it...IMHO, you cannot.. no one can.. you will simply change
one dominator with another .. just as a nomadic lion overthrows a
resident king in a pride through a fierce dual...and becomes the
dominator all over again.. without that "dominator lion" .. the pride
withers away.. Stupid analogy you say.. may be you are right..

What I feel is we need is not equality but equitability.

So the social action we need to .bring in compassion and caring and of
doing the 'right" thing.. Look at our daily lives and the people we
depend on.. the servants, the maids, the drivers , the wardboys at
work.. each of them is deeply related to our lives. What happens to
them and their families in in our hands.. the "dominators".. each one
of us can change their lives in just one generation with just a
little help. This is what needs to be taught in schools.. caring and
respect for EVERY fellow human being..no matter how "lowly" they may
be.
PF lived in a different time.. some of that may be happening still in
our country. You travel, John..... perhaps.. you see things that I
don't.. I live in ivory towers and work from air conditioned hospital
rooms. But I know, that the peasants also have a right to that kind of
education that will relieve them of their drudgery.. they have to know
that there are OTHER ways of doing things.. they have to be taught..
there has to some system of "banking education" there are things that
they just do not know, cannot even imagine even as a group.. and there
are others - outside of their societies - that know and can transfer
that knowledge to them. what is so wrong with banking education.. PF
has taken extreme examples.. and I do not agree with it... who are we
to decide that the education that they(the peasants) need is only the
education that is relevant to them... so they continue to live by
hurricane lamps?

I do not at all agree that today's education system is our country is
"oppressor" dominated .. to keep up the haves as haves and have-nots
as have nots...The teacher in me gets revolted at such statements. How
many teachers do we have in this group. Does any one feel that he/she
was an oppressor.. in the sense the PF meant? That we want keep our
students oppressed??? OK..I know nothing of rural India and I am
willing to be educated...

I also agree that there are so many things wrong with present day
system.. the straight jacketing for example.. the "this is the only
way to do it" thing.. but to me that has nothing to do with PF 's
POO..it is a simple matter of common sense,a willingness to correct
the system and most importantly be willing to take inputs from the
people who are directly affected by it..

To be the one important lesson in POO and TO is that we need to
listen to the "shop floor" in very decision we make. Not provide all
the answers but let the answers come out.. after all, there can may be
more than one solution to many problems.. many ways to skin a cat, and
may be, the teacher's solution may not be the best or even right...
This simple concept makes a deep, deep sense to me in all that I do
and something that I have learned rather late in life!!

The last time I said " .. hoping everyone will pitch in" it was
greeted by a 4 day silence.. but this time around , I think I have
provoked people enough and fireworks are likely!!

Ravi.

[John Tharakan]

Hi Ravi,
I am on the train.
Just a short reply.

Could we deal with shorter dialogue forms!
Actually I had only started to respond to your earlier note. Before I could
address the remaining issues, you have bombarded us with so much more stuff!

How on earth can we find the time to keep pace with you?

TD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ravi Ramakantan" <ramakan...@gmail.com>
To: "Theatre of the Oppressed in India" <ind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Working with children

[Ravi Ramakantan]

>> Could we deal with shorter dialogue forms!

WHAT!! And I had thought, that was one of my 'shorter' posts !! :-)

>> you have bombarded us with so much more stuff!

Garbage is easy to spew out, no?

>> How on earth can we find the time to keep pace with you?

I agree. Surely not possible on the earth..so let's move base to
another planet.. say the Venus..about 6000 earth hours to a day!!

But, here is a promise.. I will try and hold my fire , now...

Ravi.