Fwd: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: 16 Jan 2017 5:59 a.m.
Subject: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc:

Aswal & Mehrotra in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' (1999) found D.hatagirea to be common in grassy meadows on slopes

at Khoksar.

They observed that the tubers are an important ingredient of many Ayurvedic and Unani preparations and therefore

collected by the local people for sale. 

Bor's specimen at Dehra Dun which had been identified as A.maculata is in fact D.hatagirea.  A.maculata being a

European species which does not occur in India.  The plant reported by Aitchison in 1868 as A.maculata is probably

A.hatagirea.

Koelz (1979) found an attractive rose-coloured orchid common in the meadows of Lahaul, known in Tibetan as 'Wanglak' (

hand-shaped root) used by local doctors of Tibetan Medicine.   This was only partially identified as Habernaria sp.  Was this

Gymnadenia orchidis or perhaps Dactylorhiza (and if so, D.hatagirea or D.kafiriana)?

Collet in 'Flora Simlensis' (1921) also got it wrong (presumably following FBI) finding what he thought was Orchis latifolia

which he said was the 'Marsh Orchis' of Britain in wet ground at Huttoo.  Flower colour dull purple, the lip darker spotted.

'The Valley of Flowers' book lists Orchis latifolia (now Dactylorhiza hatagirea) and Orchis chusua (now Ponerorchis chusua).

I am attaching 6 images:

1.  A string of Dactylorhiza tubers having been illegally collected in H.P.; photographed on my behalf - I don't expect the

Indian collectors (they were not local men) gathered them in a responsible way (which I believe amchis - local doctors of

traditional medicine do).

2-4.  Images taken by Krishan Lal at Koksar, Lahoul, H.P. of what he thought was D.hatagirea

5. Image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed as Coleloglossum viride (in the UK this

plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green.   Just taking a quick look, Krishan's image does

not fit but we have members with much greater familiarity with Orchidaceae, who can comment more authoritatively.

6.  Another image of what he thought was Dactylorhiza viride - which Stewart listed as Coeloglossum viride (in the UK this

plant is known as the 'Frog Orchid' - the flowers MOSTLY being green.   This seems more promising.  Perhaps Krishan made

a labelling error (which he did from time-to-time).

Just supposing Krishan photos from Gulaba were taken where both Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Coeloglossum viride grew together,

the POSSIBILITY of hybrids exists.  In the UK, C.viride is known to hybridise with a number of Dactylorhiza species.....

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

[Pankaj Kumar]

Dear Sir

1. As I see all pink flowers in this thread belong to Dactylorhiza hatagirea. The tubers if collected from this plant then its ok they too are Dactylorhiza.

2.The greenish white flower pic at the end is not clear but does look like Dactylorhiza viridis (=Coeloglossum viride). If you have more pics I can check, because in this particular pic, I cant get any glimpse of the labellum. Just for your information Mr. Kishan Lal passed away recently. He was an engineer by profession and a keen collector. Most of his orchids were either identified by Jeewan and myself till 2008 (following which I had cut off my connections with him).or by BSI. D. viridis colour varies from pale green to green to even red. This is one species extremely widespread and hence such variations are obvious.

Thanks and regards

Pankaj

--

**********************************************************************************************************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia

Office:

Conservation Officer

Orchid Conservation Section

Flora Conservation Department

Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen

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email: pku...@kfbg.org; sahani...@gmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194

[Pankaj Kumar]

Just forgot to mention that yes, Amchis are around in himalayan region, some as a part of tibetan refugee and some illegal. But please remember that Dactylorhiza hatagirea atleast is also used in Indian traditional medicine.

Pankaj

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks,  Pankaj ji

[C CHADWELL]

Re: 1 - the photos of flowers had nothing to do with the image of the tubers drying.

2: Yes, I was aware that Krishan had passed away.  I have no further images. Your comments

illustrate that despite the image being quite a nice general shot it does not provide enough detail to

be certain.  As I keep saying, more than just one or two images (no matter if they are good quality)

NEED to be taken when photographing a plant.

I have recently posted images of Dactylorhizas growing in Wales, UK - taken mostly for their 'beauty'.

Last year I photographed another Dactylorhiza, this time in England, taking some closer images.  I think

it may be worth posting a selection of these images for your comments as to what other detail might be

useful to have and checking with the advice from The Botanical Society of Britain & Ireland.   These images

would also illustrate variation within a species.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: Dr. Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
Cc: chrischa...@btinternet.com; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2017, 0:39
Subject: Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

[C CHADWELL]

My understanding is that 'Tibetan' Medicine has been officially adopted/sanctioned as a health-care

system in India.

This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known

as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for

herbal formulations  - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion.

This would include collection of Dactylorhiza hatagirea (and presumably D.kafiriana) in Ladakh and Himachal Pradesh

and Gymnadenia orchidis (if it is present) which are likely to be collected as "dbang-lag".

As this has been going on for CENTURIES and D.hatagirea was described in 'Flowers of the Himalaya'

and by Stewart as "common" (and the number of amchis operating in Ladakh, much reduced in recent

decades) THERE IS NOTHING to suggest that this species is SERIOUSLY Endangered in this part of

the Himalaya at least.   UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE INCREASE IN CONSUMPTION WITHIN

'INDIAN' MEDICINE?

I assume that amchis in places like Ladakh have collected RESPONSIBLY by NOT remove colonies/

populations of this orchid in their entirety. Since the tubers (roots) are harvested, this involves

digging up the whole plant.   IF collection takes place AFTER seed has been dispersed, this is less bad.

It would be INFORMATIVE if PROPER SURVEYS OF TYPICAL HABITAT FOR THIS ORCHID HAVE

BEEN UNDERTAKEN IN LADAKH & LAHOUL to SCIENTIFICALLY ASSESS levels of threat to

wild populations. 

Flora of Lahaul-Spiti STATES that "THE large scale exploitation MAY lead to extinction from the

natural habitat" but I ask, what is the ACTUAL EVIDENCE, that this orchid is being collected on a

LARGE scale?  I do not know the answer to this nor does ANYONE.

The image taken for me showing what are likely to be Dactylorhiza hatagirea tubers being dried was

in Lahoul.   The collectors (presumably operating illegally) were not local men.

Yes, it is right and proper to express concerns and one way would surely be to monitor QUANTITY

of dried tubers being purchased.  

But UNLESS there is evidence to INCREASED demand/usage cf. say the 1970s/1980s, when D.hatagirea

was considered as "common" in suitable habitats (and thus collection of such quantities appeared

sustainable).   IF this is the case then CLAIMS of risk of extinction have been EXAGGERATED.

I KNOW from personal experience "in the Himalaya" that some species which are CLAIMED to be

'rare and endangered' are NO SUCH THING.

Surely, FINITE, resources for a CONSERVATION should be directed towards those species GENUINELY

rare.

Just because a plant is used for medicinal purposes does NOT automatically mean it is CRITICALLY

ENDANGERED (which means it is about to become extinct).

CRYING WOLF too often, will, in time cause GREAT harm.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, 16 January 2017, 13:10
Subject: Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

[Pankaj Kumar]

Dear Sir

"This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations  - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion."

No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn.

Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. 

Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop.

I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar.

Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>

[gurinder goraya]

Dears,

May I join you all in this very interesting and meaningful debate on Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchisdis.

During the course of our field visits to the Great Himalayan National Park in Himachal Pradesh, we have seen both these species growing together at altitude of about 3500 m asl. Had we not stopped for savouring the beauty of these spikes with many hues of pink emerging from the alpine grass mat and for clicking their pictures, we would have passed these as Dactylorhiza hatageria only. It was only close interaction with these that we could notice occurrence of Gymnadenia orchidis mixed with that of Dactylorhiza. None of the local people accompanying our group as porters and routinely making wild collection of medicinal herbs was able to differentiate between the two and were collecting both as 'Salam Panja'. I have NOT noticed Gymnadenia orchidis from Lahaul valley yet, even as have seen Dactylorhiza hatageria in may grasslands, especially along small water channels criss crossing these grasslands.

I have been regularly interacting with local people in Himachal Pradesh about the expanse of occurrence of Dactylorhiza hatageria as part of our continuous efforts to understand the wild harvest of the species. I have recently completed a national study to assess demand of medicinal plants in India. An annual consumption of more than 10 metric ton of the entity traded as 'salam panja' (Dactylorhiza hatageria) has been estimated based on consumption data collected from the domestic herbal industry and traders. A part of this annual need (about 6 metric ton) is being met from 'Salam Panja' raw drug received as LoC trade. The remaining matching annual quantity is being collected from the wild in J&K, Himachal Pradesh, and Uttarakhand with some quantity in trade traced back to Arunachal Pradesh. Obviously what is being traded as 'salam panja' is a mix of species.

Coming back to the status in the wild, a severe depletion in the wild populations of Dactylorhiza hatageria has been reported in Himachal Pradesh with regeneration not matching with the annual removals of its tubers. At many places the habitat of the species - grass lands with good flow of water in mini channels - has severely dwindled. The species has been assessed as of 'conservation concern' and some efforts towards establishing its nursery and plantation techniques have been initiated, with no great success reported till now. Any idea about how to propagate the species?

I'll locate photographs of both these species clicked during my GHNP visit and share with you in a day or two.

Regards,

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: indian...@googlegroups.com <indian...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM
To: C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

 

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[gurinder goraya]

Dears, 

In continuation of my mail of yesterday, I attach below high resolution images of plants I think are of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis, clicked from the same location and same day in GHNP, Kullu in Himachal Pradesh. I also dug up tubers of these two orchids and noted that with careful examination it is possible to tell one from the other. I'll share photographs of the tubers also as soon as I am able to locate these. 

Kindly validate.

Regards,

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:23 AM
To: Pankaj Kumar; C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

 

[J.M. Garg]

Very interesting discussions.

---

From: indian...@googlegroups.com <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM
To: C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Dear Sir

"This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations  - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion."

No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn.

Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. 

Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop.

I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar.

Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>

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[C CHADWELL]

Very informative input.   

Surprising to find BOTH species growing together in the GHNP and interesting that the locals

who collect medicinal plants could not distinguish between the two - mind you, they are not

trained/skilled amchis and in Tibetan Medicine the means of identification/recognition is different

to that used by Western Science.

Your findings suggest that Gymnadenia orchidis may well have been over-looked in other areas.

The figures you quote of estimated harvested are ENORMOUS and raise CONSIDERABLE concerns.  Could you say whether

this weight is FRESH or DRIED weight of tubers?  And do you know an c. mean weight of a tuber collected?  From which an estaimate

of actual numbers of plants removed could be arrived at.   Often weights only are given.  1kg of flowers or leaves is very different to 1kg of roots.

It certainly seems (at least for Himachal Pradesh) there are legitimate grounds for GRAVE concerns- the situation may not be anywhere near as

extreme for Ladakh or Kashmir (where access/movement has been an issue for decades due to being disputed territory with Pakistan).

Would you say that those currently undertaking collection in HP are doing so in a RESPONSIBLE way?  Those undertaking ILLEGAL collection are likely to REMOVE every available tuber they come across.....

Assuming your estimate of annual removal of tubers is accurate this sounds like it would NOT be sustainable no matter how good the natural regeneration of these orchids is.

Yes, the habitat you describe is dwindling in H.P.   I recollect observing such habitat part of the way up the Rohtang during botanical tours I led to Lahoul in 1985/1986 but it is long gone.  A few years back I undertook a short trek from above Nagar to a pass where an uncommon (for the area) Primula had been seen by Koelz in the 1930s.  The area was heavily over-grazed and seemed 'drier' than in the past.

From your evidence it is fully justify to classify Dactylorhiza hatagirea as of Conservation Concern in H.P. (indeed Grave Concern) but that does not automatically mean this applies in Kashmir or Ladakh or within Pakistan territory.   Too often, I see a classification of 'Rare' or even 'Critically Endanagered' (which is a VERY serious status) which may or may not be accurate in one area/district EXTRAPOLATED to cover the WHOLE of its distribution.   Such is not CORRECT.

Given that both Datlylorhiza and Gymnadenia seem to be collected as 'dbang lag' - I have a copy of 'Clear Mirror of Paintings of Tibetan Medical Plants' produced by Men-Tsee-Khang which has a painting of Dbang-lag which CLEARLY is NOT of Dactylorhiza but Gymnadenia, then should not BOTH species be included within the classification of 'Conservation Concern'?

In Ladakh, IF we are correct that Gymnadenia is not found there (nor most other orchids) then Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato (by which I include D.kafiriana) ONLY will be the plant collected as dbang-lag.

It would not be appropriate for me to quote actual figures of average consumption at the National Institute of Traditional Medicine, Thimphu, Bhutan (this covers only part of that country) in the early 1990s (I worked as a consultant for The Royal Government of Bhutan for a short period) but for 'dbang lag' (bearing in mind whether the figures for HP and Bhutan refer to dried weight or not which may be a tenth or so) the amount currently being consumed in H.P. may well be 1000x.....

I know little about the actual formulations of Bhutanese or Tibetan Medicine as a whole or how often orchid tubers are used nor their usage in

Ayuvedic Medicine - which presumably is the main consumer of these vast quantities in India?

As for cultivation. I have never grown orchids (terrestrial or epiphytic) myself and have limited first-hand experience but expertise does exist in the West and I am in a position to offer some useful advice. Large showy Dactylorhiza are cultivated.  I am not aware if D.hatagirea has been grown much.   Although it quite attractive, it is relatively small and not especially showy compared to other species of the genus and the varieties most widely grown. Orchids often present a special challenge cultivation-wise.  When in Bhutan I was asked to recommend species for cultivation (and how that might be done).  It made sense, since there was NO tradition of cultivating plants used as medicines, to initially select ones which stood the MAXIMUM chance of being successfully grown.  Dactylorhiza hatagirea would have very much have been near the BOTTOM rather than at the TOP of a list of species recommended for cultivation.

Given that I am familiar with the typical nursery and presumably plantation techniques employed in India, it comes as no great surprise to hear little success has been achieved.

I am happy to offer some general pointers but consider IF the authorities in India  are serious about ex-situ conservation as well as nursery production of Himalayan plant species utilised in traditional medicine, they should engage my services as a consultant to visit the Himalaya and Himalayan foothills to provide DETAILED advice and plans/programmes.

In the mean-time, could you outline what methods have been tried to-date (and where including elevation). Accompanying photos would be most helpful.  It may or may not be appropriate that some of this information is supplied to me privately rather than to the whole group.

ONE FUNDAMENTAL POINT WHICH ALARMS ME IS THAT IT SEEMS THAT MOST EX-SITU CONSERVATION PROJECTS FOR INDIAN HIMALAYAN FLORA INVOLVING DIGGING-UP LIVE PLANTS FROM THE MOUNTAINS, THEN TRANSPORTING DOWN THOUSANDS OF FEET TO ALL-TOO-RAPIDLY EXPIRE IN A BOTANICAL GARDEN.  THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT APPROACH.  I AM A STRONG ADVOCATE OF SEED-COLLECTION (WHICH IF DONE INTELLIGENTLY DOES NOT DAMAGE WILD POPULATIONS) AND RAISING FROM SEED, RATHER THAN REMOVING WHOLE PLANTS OF SUPPOSEDLY 'ENDANGERED' SPECIES.

NEVERTHELESS, MANY MOUNTAIN PLANTS ARE NOT SUITED TO BE GROWN AT LOWER ELEVATIONS BY ANY METHOD...

I will be interested in viewing these images.

I recollect seeing on a leaflet produced for a Tibetan Organisation in Ladakh which had a picture of a 'field' of Dactyloriza being cultivated.  Presumably these had also been dug-up from the wild.  I also visited the 'garden' of another organisation near Leh which was really struggling due to lack of water - in fact I spotted more species growing in waste ground outside the garden than inside...

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>
To: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017, 1:53
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

[C CHADWELL]

Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids.

I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids.

Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria and Himalayan plants

at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to differentiate between them at the

non-flowering stage. 

Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras permit, also has the

potential to transform things.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>
To: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; J. M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2017, 0:59
Subject: Fw: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com>

--

[C CHADWELL]

I shall let our orchid specialist formally confirm the IDs of these two orchids. 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: gurinder <guri...@hotmail.com>
Cc: chrischa...@btinternet.com; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2017, 13:13
Subject: Re: Fw: [efloraofindia:261782] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Very interesting discussions.

---

From: indian...@googlegroups.com <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM
To: C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Dear Sir

"This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations  - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion."

No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn.

Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. 

Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop.

I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar.

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[C CHADWELL]

Thanks for your clarification of important points.

I think it is worth mentioning that Indian deserves greater recognition and credit for

taking in large numbers of refugees from Tibet and being prepared to host H.H. The

Dalai Lama at Dharamsala. The latter does not make them popular with a certain powerful

neighbour.

CLEARLY, Dactylorhiza was NOT 'Critically Endangered' in 1986.   I think it is important

to spell out what this actually means i.e. in imminent danger of becoming EXTINCT.

THIRTY years later it is NOT Extinct, no matter what state populations are in the wild -

and this INEVITABLY varies from district to district and region to region.

I can well believe that the species is NOT as common as it was decades ago.  IF typical

habitat of any species is reduced then it will come as no surprise that population size has

reduced - regardless of whether a species is collected or not for any use!

But Scientists MUST NOT get caught up with 'tabloid-style' sensationalist claims/head-lines -

there MUST be actual evidence.

I am sure ADULTERATION has been an issue for NUMEROUS medicinal species for centuries, if not

millennia.   The Romans brought with them plants of various sorts.   The Moghuls introduced various

plants into Kashmir.

Plants will ALWAYS have been MISIDENTIFIED thus leading to UNINTENTIONAL adulteration

and SOME medicinal species have ALWAYS been DELIBERATELY adulterated - just as happens with

drug supplies in the West.   Coventry in his Series on WILD FLOWERS OF KASHMIR talks of medicinal

species being adulterated and this was almost a century ago.  SMUGGLING has always taken place. 

Certain plants were smuggled into Lahaul from Kashmir and are grown there now - just as, I understand,

Moravian Missionaries first introduced potatoes, now a major crop.  And much as the potato is associated

with Britain it was 'taken' from the Andes.   The Spanish spread many plants around the world (as did the

Portugese though probably to a lesser extent).   Many plants grown in Indian cities originate from Central or

South America and Africa.  In terms of ornamental plants, the world over, people seem more interested in

cultivated plants from other parts of the world.

I recollect when briefly at the Institute of Traditional Medicine in Thimphu, Bhutan in the 1990s that

there was an issue about low-altitude plant material imported from India for use in formulations in

Bhutanese Medicine (pretty much all the high-altitude plants were collected within Bhutan).  Some

of the items supplied were clearly not the genuine article.   Though nothing new about this.

Doctors of Traditional Medicine in Bhutan are (or at least were) not paid as such, so it came as a

shock to Bhutanese when people starting coming over the borders into Bhutan to collect Cordyceps

- this happened when the price rose significantly.

Being 'tricked' is nothing knew all over the world.  I briefly took an interest in Pashmina and it soon became

apparent that almost NONE of the supposedly 100% Pashmina sold in Kathmandu is genuine - almost all

is synthetic....

At the height of the 'Pashmina' fashion peak, I KNOW that the top designers, who charged considerable sums

for their clothes were frequently sold FAKE 'pashmina'....   They could not tell the difference.

India tourists on Rohtang shoud be aware of India sellers of supposed Saffron - which at times is just strips of

paper which has been died or 'Musk' which is assorted hair and glue boiled up.

The ART and ANTIQUES trade has plenty of 'fakes'.   Few people can tell the genuine articles, whether plant

or animal products or otherwise.   HIGH price is no guarantee that something is genuine.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>

To: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>

Cc: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017, 1:03

Subject: Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com>

[gurinder goraya]

Dears,

Kindly see the trailing mail containing details of the photographs. I am resending slightly compressed photographs as the high resolution images did not get uploaded.

Regards,

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:54 PM
To: Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg; C CHADWELL

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

 

Dears,

Find attached four more photographs of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis showing (a) common habitat; (b) freshly dug tubers of Dactylorhiza hatageria; (c) freshly dug tubers of Gymnadenia orchidis; and (d) comparative image of tubers of both these species.

The estimated consumption of Dactylorhiza tubers I have shared with you in my previous mail is based on dry weight only. I don't have dried samples of tubers of either of these species here with me. However, I'll get the average weight of dried tubers soon.

Regards,    

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM
To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids.

I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids.

Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria and Himalayan plants

at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to differentiate between them at the

non-flowering stage. 

Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras permit, also has the

potential to transform things.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot,  Gurinder ji

---

From: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM
To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids.

I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids.

Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria and Himalayan plants

at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to differentiate between them at the

non-flowering stage. 

Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras permit, also has the

potential to transform things.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>

To: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>; J. M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

---

From: indian...@googlegroups.com <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:33 AM
To: C CHADWELL
Cc: J.M. Garg; efloraofindia
Subject: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Dear Sir

"This means that it is legitimate for amchis (doctors of traditional Tibetan Medicine in Bhutan are known as dungtshos) long resident in Ladakh AND those based a MEN-TSEE-KHANG to collect material for herbal formulations  - provided it carried out in a responsible fashion."

No that doesn't make it legitimate for amchis to collect. According to Indian laws, they (indian tribals) have the right to collect from their area. Not all Amchis are native indian tribes. Many of them are refugees from Tibet who have limited rights. Please also remember that many of these amchis dont collect plants by themselves, but they hire locals or even outsiders to supply plants to them. How much they collect depends on how much money they want to earn.

Infact when the red data book of Indian plants was published in 1986, Dactylorhiza hatagirea was assessed to be Critically Endangered but many disagreed to it including myself. No doubt there has been immense collection of it but as I said above a particular elevation it is common as per my personal observation, but may be it was more common decades ago. 

Yes Amchis are accepted in Indian Traditional Medicine but I believe many plants are being sold out of India legally or illegally. For example plants like Cordyceps are collected in India but used mainly in Chinese Traditional medicine. Never heard of it being used in India. So you can see the violation of Indian law here. Recently we examined tubers from Hong Kong market and through barcoding we found out that they were Gymnadenia orchidis although the bag was labelled as Dactylorhiza. You will be shocked that in the name of deer femur, we have seen dog femur being sold in Chinese traditional medicine shop.

I just feel that they adulterate to make more and easy money or just that they dont know how to differentiate as the tubers are very similar.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Pankaj Kumar]

Dear Sir

Do you mean that the tubers of the two species can be differentiated morphologically?

Regards

Pankaj

To: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; J. M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

---

From: indian...@googlegroups.com <indian...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>

[C CHADWELL]

Interesting.   Thanks for sending these images. 

Let me start with the common habitat - certainly rich and varied.  I seem to be able to make

out Anemone obtusiloba, Geum elatum (maybe), Potentilla atrosanguinea (probably), Iris (could

probably work out which species) and could, also, probably decide upon some other plants there.

The average dry weight of the 'tubers' would be of interest, allowing an estimate of the numbers of

individual plants dug up.

So your estimate was dry weight meaning that the harvested weight of orchids would have by say 10x

as much.  Wow.

Certainly would be useful to the authorities if one can READILY separate the FRESH (and partially dried)

tubers and even the dried tubers on morphological characteristics.

On the basis of your images, I would say, looking at the tubers that the orchid which had been dug-up

between Khelanmarg & Gulmarg, images of which I posted recently, was Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato

rather than the Gymnadenia.

I will look at the immature fruits and surrounding parts and see, now I have some reference images of G.

orchidis to check, which of the two species they seem to fit best.  HOPEFULLY this will agree.  But I am

quite prepared to say if I think it does not or I cannot decide.

I have a copy of 'Clear Mirror of Paintings of Tibetan Medicinal Plants' by Dawa which includes dbang-lag - this,

on the basis of its flowers and now your images of tubers fits with G.orchidis.   It had been named as G. sp.

According to an early medieval text 2 forms of dbang-lag are known - SUPERIOR and INFERIOR (such a separation

occurs for many Tibetan plants).  According to this the tubers with 5 fingers are SUPERIOR - those with less than 5,

INFERIOR.  My INITIAL thinking is that it may be that GYMNADENIA ORCHIDIS tubers represent the 'superior' type.

Assuming the distinction is VALID, then in Ladakh, where ONLY the Dactylorhiza is found, only the INFERIOR form

is available.  In Tibetan Medicine I regularly come across references to it being known that the SUPERIOR forms

come from particular parts of the Himalaya and not others.

IF e.g. you are an amchi in Ladakh and cannot assess raw material from E.Himalaya which has SOME of the SUPERIOR

forms of plants used in Tibetan Medicine, then you must MAKE DO with what you can obtain.

I know little about Ayuvedic Medicine - do such distinctions occur?

Another aspect which I am especially curious about is the ALTITUDE a plant is gathered at for medicinal purposes.

GENERALLY-SPEAKING, in Tibetan Medicine, the HIGHER the ELEVATION material is collected from, the more 'potent'/

'better quality' it is considered to be.   Indeed the original medieval texts can dictate that material can ONLY be gathered

towards the upper altitudinal limit - in some cases.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: gurinder goraya <guri...@hotmail.com>

To: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; J. M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 24 January 2017, 15:24

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Dears,

Find attached four more photographs of Dactylorhiza hatageria and Gymnadenia orchidis showing (a) common habitat; (b) freshly dug tubers of Dactylorhiza hatageria; (c) freshly dug tubers of Gymnadenia orchidis; and (d) comparative image of tubers of both these species.

The estimated consumption of Dactylorhiza tubers I have shared with you in my previous mail is based on dry weight only. I don't have dried samples of tubers of either of these species here with me. However, I'll get the average weight of dried tubers soon.

Regards,    

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 3:33 AM
To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg

Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand

Nice photos which clearly differentiate between the two orchids.

I would welcome viewing the images of the orchids.

Having spent quite a bit of time examining pressed specimens in herbaria and Himalayan plants

at the fruiting stage in the wild, think I may well soon be able to differentiate between them at the

non-flowering stage. 

Being able to have good close-up images to compare, which digital cameras permit, also has the

potential to transform things.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

Chris Chadwell - shpa.org.uk www.shpa.org.uk Chris Chadwell - Freelance Lecturer, Botanist, Himalaya Specialist, Travel and Plant Photographer, Freelance photo-journalist

[gurinder goraya]

Dears,

Thanks to Mr. Chadwell for his insightful comments. 

The issue of 'better' or 'inferior' quality tubers would perhaps need more study. Dactylorhiza tubers with five fingers are also quite common. I'll try to make another trip to the typical habitat of the species to get more info this year. Other members including DS Rawat, Anil Thakur, Ashwini, who are actively exploring western-Himalayan flora may take up this issue as a challenge and come together to resolve this by the end of this year.

Regards,

Dr. G S Goraya, IFS

Deputy Director General (Research),

Indian Council of Forestry Research & Education,

New Forest P.O., Dehradun - 248006.

(Uttarakhand, India) 

Tel. (+91-941-802-5036)

---

From: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 3:56 AM

To: gurinder goraya; Pankaj Kumar; efloraofindia; J. M. Garg
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:261724] Re: Datylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in HP & Uttarakhand