Fwd: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: 16 Jan 2017 7:20 a.m.
Subject: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc:

My first visit further East along the Himalaya came in 1990 when I went to Nepal for the first time.

I do not remember seeing any terrestrial orchids but did notice a number of epiphytic ones at lower

elevation.  The first epiphytic orchids I had seen were when I travelled from Srinagar, Kashmir to

Jammu then took the train to Pathankot and noticed some in trees in Kangra district en route to Manali.

No Dactylorhiza nor Gymnadenia are mentioned in 'Flora of Mustang' but I do not consider this to be complete

by any means as I personally know quite a number of species omitted.

Enumeration of the Flowering plants of Nepal gives:

D.hatagirea a distribution of Pakistan to Bhutan & SE Tibet @ 2800-3960m

G.orchidis a distribution of Kashmir to Bhutan & SE Tibet @ 3000-4700m.

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of Orchidaceae for Flora of Bhutan (which also covers Sikkim).

In the mid-1990s I was a consultant to 'The Royal Government of Bhutan' on 'The Cultivation of Medicinal

Plants for Traditional Medicine Project'.

Prior to my first visit to Bhutan I was sent a partial list of Himalayan species utilised in Bhutanese Medicine with

their equivalent Tibetan name. I immediately noticed some errors within the Latin names, as several of the species

on the list were restricted to the 'Western' Himalaya and not known in Bhutan.

As I regularly comment, the geographic distribution of species is seldom checked.  I must ENCOURAGE all those

attempting to identify plants in the Himalaya to check along with checking if the elevation where a specimen has

been recorded TALLIES with its known altitudinal range.  IF it is at a significantly higher or lower elevation, then open

must investigate further.

In the list, as expected, there was an entry for 'dbang-lag' which had been named as Dactylorhiza hatagirea, however, I wondered

if other orchids were collected as well - indeed there was evidence to suggest D.hatagirea was not found much in Bhutan.

In another list the 'botanical name' for dbang-lag was given as Gymnadenia crassinervis.  This species is, as far as I know, restricted to

China (Yunnan & Sichuan), so is likely to be a misidentification.  The most likely explanation is that someone looked up the Latin name for

dbang-lag in a Chinese reference book.

Assuming ALL Dactylorhiza and Gymnadenia have hand-shaped roots then it is likely that ANY from these two genera are collected by

doctors of Tibetan Medicine.  The actual species will vary from region to region.

Gymnadenia orchidis is recorded for Nepal and Bhutan.

I see that the group's orchid specialist expresses uncertainty in distinguishing between D.hatagirea and G.orchidis, when specimens are not in flower.  If someone with specialist knowledge struggles, it means other botanists will have done so in the past.  Thus either species may have previously been over or under-recorded.

There is also the issue of whether Dactylorhiza hatagirea is a variable complex or a number of taxa can be separated, as Soo suggested in the past.

Has any member got a copy of Orchidaceae for Bhutan (or can check a copy in a major botanical library) and see what was said about

these two 'species' and closely-related ones?

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

[Pankaj Kumar]

Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Gymnadenia orchidis are very widespread above a particular elevation. I am sure it should be there in Pakistan if it is there in Indian Kashmir. BUt please remember the aspect of Himalaya changes if you go westwards from uttarakhand. So uttarakhand has rich diversity and then species number goes down westwards till the end of Himalayas around Afghanistan.

You cant treat a species based on their traditional name. As I said Dactylorhiza hatagirea is widespread and some variations are normal. Infact at one point I think Dactylorhiza umbrosa should be merged under hatagirea.

Gymnadenia is very different for sure but without flower just on the basis of leaves you cant differentiate, infact there are many Habenaria found in same habitat which cant be differentiated either. NOT A BIG DEAL.

In China all Dendrobiums are used in chinese medicine as Shih Hu. But there are many species of Dendrobiums in China. They are very distinct from each other.

--

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Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia

Office:

Conservation Officer

Orchid Conservation Section

Flora Conservation Department

Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.

Residence:
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Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot,  Pankaj ji

[C CHADWELL]

I am in agreement that conditions in the NW Himalaya (which I consider to be Kashmir & H.P. but not Uttarakhand)

are different to Uttarakhand.   The State of Uttarakhand represents the north-westerly limit of the range of quite

a number of Himalayan species belonging to many genera. 

I consider dividing the main Himalaya into just "Western" and "Eastern" is too simplistic.  Perfect divisions seldom

exist but better to have "North-West" (see above), "Central" (covering Uttarakhand plus West & Central Nepal), then "Eastern"

(covering East Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan).   I am not familiar enough with the vegetation/floristics of A.P. to comment as to whether

it fits into 'East' Himalaya well or has greater affinities with the flora of the mountains of SW China (which I do not count

as part of the Himalaya proper - just as the Karakoram and Hindu Kush are not part of the Himalaya proper).

I remain interested in the identify (according to Western Science) of plants collected under 'Tibetan Names'

especially the CORRECT geographic range, altitudinal range and habitats for Dactylorhiza hatagirea

(sensu lato) and Gymnadenia orchidis.

As you know, orchids are few and far between in the Indian Trans-Himalaya.   Dickore & Klimes (2005) list the following

species from Ladakh:

Dactylorhiza hatagirea

D.kafiriana

Epipactis helleborine

Epipactis persica

Herminium monorchis

I have not come across any Epipactis in Ladakh myself (though have seen E.helleborine in Kashmir).

The typical habitat for the Dactylorhizas and Herminium in Ladakh (and Lahoul) is in 'marshy' conditions around the

irrigation channels of fields.  See attached images taken from some 800m above the Matayan in Ladakh (the first settlement

after one crosses the Zoji La from Kashmir).

Gymnadenia orchidis is NOT known from Ladakh.    I am curious as to the CORRECT ranges and conditions under which this

and Dactylorhiza hatagirea grow in Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan.   Does any member have a copy of Orchidaceae of Bhutan, so can

check the details?

The Gymnadenia is not recorded in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' which IF correct, suggests it is NOT a Trans-Himalayan species and so

would not be expected in Nepalese, Sikkimese or Bhutanese territory bordering Tibet, yet the Dactylorhiza would be.

In addition to records from Kashmir territory, Stewart recoded the Gymnadenia from Hazara.

The original MEDIEVAL texts which Tibetan Medicine is based upon, mostly describes species from close to Lhasa/SE Tibet

and Bhutan (which was known as 'Southern Valley of Medicinal Herbs').   Doctors of traditional medicine operating in Ladakh

would located the NEAREST equivalent plant, which in some cases is NOT the same 'species' according to Western Science.

4 images attached (photographed as slides in mind-1980s) then scanned in:

All show the settlement of Matayan, Ladakh at some 3000m with irrigated fields of barley (probably also peas and some fodder crops) photographed in September after harvest.   The irrigation channels are home to Dactylorhiza hatagirea and sometimes Herminium monorchis.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: Dr. Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
Cc: chrischa...@btinternet.com; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2017, 0:40
Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya

[Pankaj Kumar]

Dear Sir

Nice pics.

You may contact my PhD mentor Prof G.S.Rawat about the occurrence of these species in the Himalayas as he has conducted extensive surveys in this area.

Here are few details I am quoting from Orchids of Bhutan, Orchids of Northwest Himalaya and Orchids of Arunachal Pradesh.

Dactylorhiza hatagirea

INDIA: Jammu and Kashmir (Kashmir, Kishan Ganga Valley, Sonmarg, Gulmarg, Gilgit, Poonch, Ladakh), Himachal Pradesh (Shimla, Chamba, Lahaul, Kullu, Ksokar), Uttarakhand (Garhwal - Mussorie, Tehri, Uttarkashi, Chamoli; Kumaun - Pithoragarh), Arunachal Pradesh (Kameng, Subhanshri); PAKISTAN NEPAL & SOUTH WEST TIBET (CHINA).

Gymnadenia orchidis

INDIA: Jammu & Kashmir (Liddar Valley), Himachal Pradesh (Pangi Chamba, Shimla, Dhanchoo, Kinnor), Uttarakhand (Garhwal - Uttarkashi, Chamoli; Kumaun - Pithoragarh, Nainital), West Bengal (Darjeeling), Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh (Kameng, Lohit, Siang); PAKISTAN; NEPAL; BHUTAN.

Note: I cant find a reference saying this from Ladakh area but with such distribution from Pakistan till Bhutan, I imagine WHY NOT?

Hope this helps.

Pankaj

Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet.com; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>

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[Tapas Chakrabarty]

Pankaj ji, 

Pl. share new Pleione with us!

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks,  Pankaj ji and Chadwell ji

Cc: chrischa...@btinternet.com; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

[C CHADWELL]

Thanks for the information, though I am also interested in the habitats these

species grow in. 

As for Gymnadenia orchidis, this species may well need moister conditions than

found in Ladakh or even Lahaul.

Yes, it has been recorded from Pakistan (according to Stewart and the author of

Orchidaceae for Flora of Pakistan - the latter says "alpine pastures".  Stewart only

lists Hazara, Upper Kishengaga & Kashmir Valley NOT the drier districts like

Baltistan or Ladakh.

So it seems no surprise to me that it is NOT known from Ladakh.

I remain curious about the habitat and altitudinal range of Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato

(or agg. if one prefers) in Bhutan.  IS, I wonder G.orchidis more commonly collected as

'dbang-lag' there rather than D.hatagirea?

As I said, I do not have a copy of Orchidaceae for Bhutan (and Sikkim).   IF you do, could you

check what this volume has to say about these two species.

Perhaps Professor Rawat has information about these species in Sikkim?   Though this was a separate

Kingdom (as Bhutan currently remains as) previously and access may have been difficult then. 

I have just seen that you were quoting from Orchids of Bhutan - is this the same as the Orchidaceae of

Bhutan published by Edinburgh Botanics?

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
To: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; Gopal Singh Rawat <raw...@wii.giv.in>
Cc: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017, 12:57

Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya

[C CHADWELL]

This message failed when first sent, so am trying again.

Thanks for the information, though I am also interested in the habitats these

species grow in. 

As for Gymnadenia orchidis, this species may well need moister conditions than

found in Ladakh or even Lahaul.

Yes, it has been recorded from Pakistan (according to Stewart and the author of

Orchidaceae for Flora of Pakistan - the latter says "alpine pastures".  Stewart only

lists Hazara, Upper Kishengaga & Kashmir Valley NOT the drier districts like

Baltistan or Ladakh.

So it seems no surprise to me that it is NOT known from Ladakh.

I remain curious about the habitat and altitudinal range of Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato

(or agg. if one prefers) in Bhutan.  IS, I wonder G.orchidis more commonly collected as

'dbang-lag' there rather than D.hatagirea?

As I said, I do not have a copy of Orchidaceae for Bhutan (and Sikkim).   IF you do, could you

check what this volume has to say about these two species.

Perhaps Professor Rawat has information about these species in Sikkim?   Though this was a separate

Kingdom (as Bhutan currently remains as) previously and access may have been difficult then. 

I have just seen that you were quoting from Orchids of Bhutan - is this the same as the Orchidaceae of

Bhutan published by Edinburgh Botanics?

 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

From: Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com>
To: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; Gopal Singh Rawat <raw...@wii.giv.in>
Cc: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017, 12:57

Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya

Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>