Fabaceae herb ID 26/9/2012 SK

[surajit koley]

Sir,

I thought it was SHOLAPITH (Aeschynomene), i have been told so by local residents, but leaflets are much bigger. I attach pictures of four individuals, and also two old records of the same plant.

Species : UNKNOWN

Habit & Habitat : wild under-shrub in ditches and flooded lowland at village outskirts, 5 feet or more tall

Date : 18/8/12 & 25/9/10 (old, with flowers)

Place : Khanpur (Hooghly)

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[Neil Soares]

Hi,  This one also looks like Sesbania bisphinosa.                      With regards,                        Neil Soares. --- On Wed, 9/26/12, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[surajit koley]

Neil Sir,

I also thought that it might be a Sesbania species, specially, Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Pers. (or DHONCHE in Bengali), more so because DHONCHE is cultivated in many places in Hooghly, including that particular place and in this very rainy season.

Yesterday, i worked for almost 2 hrs. just to understand what does mucronate or truncate or apiculate or obliquely rounded leaf mean. I paste below my homework!

Leaflet apex  = rounded and mucronate = Aeschynomene indica L.

Leaflet apex = obtuse or truncate-apiculate = Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Poir.

1. http://web3.dnp.go.th/botany/BFC/image/leaf/leaf_apex.jpg
   
2. http://www.plantbiology.siu.edu/PLB304/Lecture02VegMorph/images/LeafApexLawrence.jpg
   
3. http://www.nswildflora.ca/glossary/Grays/Figs103ffTips.jpg
   
4. http://www.eeob.iastate.edu/classes/bio366/terminology/vegetative/images/leaves/apices.jpg
   
5. http://www.kswildflower.org/drawings/leafapex.jpg
   

Leaflet base = obliquely rounded = Aeschynomene indica L.

1. http://www.pssc.ttu.edu/techhort/structur/leaves/bases.htm
   
2. http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/abrs/online-resources/glossaries/vascular/images/lbase.jpg
   

Leaflet size : Aeschynomene indica L = 2.5-6.5 mm long, 1.2-2.0 mm broad = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200011865

Leaflet size = .Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Poir. = 8-20(-40) × 2.5-4(-7) mm = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012310

Description = Aeschynomene indica L. = http://www.prota4u.org/protav8.asp?g=psk&p=Aeschynomene+indica+L.

Description = Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Poir. = http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/data/pf000169.htm

The above homework led me to Aeschynomene species. Only leaflet size doesn't match.

Now, as i read the description of Sesbania bispinosa at FoP (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=242348734) the same size problem arises, leaflet in this species measures at about 4 cm x more than 7 mm.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit

[Dinesh Valke]

Surajit ji, can we get nearer to some flowers at whatever best focus - by cropping original pictures (old_VSCN6223.jpg OR old_VSCN6225.jpg) ?
Hopefully some time later, you may even get to capture the seedpods -- may give us good lead.
My thought is - some species of Aeschynomene.
Regards.
Dinesh

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[surajit koley]

Dinesh Ji,

I wish to visit the place as soon as possible and take pics of flowers and pods, if available.

Also i will search my old archives for the original copies of those cropped pics i attached. I hope i didn't delete the originals, what i often do to save my hard-disk space.

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Neil Sir & Dinesh Ji,

This plants, be several individuals of the same species or belong to two different taxa, are neither Aeschynomene aspera nor A. indica, nor even A. americana. Leaflets and pods are much bigger here. Moreover, pods are long, as can be seen in the attached picture 1024x_old_VSCN6225_25sept2010,jpg.

For the very leaflet size we can discard S. sesban (all varieties), S. bispinosa.

Sesbania concolor in FoP = leaflet 1-3 cm x 3-8 mm = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=250064809

Sesbania cannabina in FoC = leaflet  8-20(-40) × 2.5-4(-7) = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012310

It appears to me that it is a Sesbania species, maybe Sesbania cannabina (Retz.) Pers. According to FoC, "....Stems green or sometimes brown, smooth, with inconspicuous light greenish stripes..." and the same feature can be seen in my original upload pic - plant3_DSCN8793.jpg. But, at the same time i fail to explain prickles in pic - plant1_DSCN8730.jpg.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gurcharan Singh]

Surajit ji

This is turning interesting. First make sure that all photographs belong to the same plant/population. Obviously 3730 and 3797 don't belong to the same plant. 

    Your 6225 excludes the possibility of Aeschynomene, as pods are clearly of Sesbania. 

    Your first photograph 8735 raises the biggest doubt. the leaflet shown starts from 5.6 cm and extends to about 9.8, a length of about 4.2 cm. same image at number 8 where whole width of leaf is shown the scale covering pair of leaflets. It starts from 5.6 and extends up to slightly less than 15. Taking into account the width of rachis the length comes to around 4.2-4.3 cm.

     The number of leaflets in few leaves that I could count seems to be 21-23 pairs.

     This strictly does not fit any species known in our Floras, although S. sesban  with up to 25 pairs or so seems closest. The leaflet size in S. cannabinus is 8-20 mm, S. bispinosa 10-16 mm, and S. sesban 13-25 mm, again last being the closest.

      Please analyse your specimens keeping these in mind.

 

-- 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

     

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[surajit koley]

Good morning Sir,

I explain the images in groups of 4, excluding the old records.

All images, except the old ones, were recorded on the same day and along roadside covering a distance of 200 meters or so.

group1 : pics nos. = 8735, 8739, plant1_DSCN8730, plant1_DSCN8734, plant1_DSCN8735

The above pictures are taken between 2:22:31 p.m. to 2:25:50 p.m., so i think all images come from a single plant.

group2 : pic no. = plant2_DSCN8758 was recorded at 2:45:04 p.m., so i think it comes from a second plant.

group3 : pics nos. = plant3_DSCN8792, plant3_DSCN8793, = recorded between 3:03:46 to 3:04:07 p.m., i think from a third plant

group4 : pic no. = plant4_DSCN8817 was taken at 3:16:07 p.m., probably from a population at another location in the vicinity.

However, according to FoC, leaflets of S. cannabina can attain a length of 40mm, i copy here a line - "leaflet blades oppo­site or subopposite, linear-oblong, 8-20(-40) × 2.5-4(-7) mm, smaller at both ends of rachis than in middle" = http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012310

But, all said and done, i am very much ashamed to make it so confusing, I will try to revisit the place today and make new post or posts, whichever is applicable, with new records of those plants.

Thank you & regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Sir,

I visited the place and recorded fresh images of plants scattered in an area covering only 50 meter or less.

FINDINGS :

1. All my previous pictures, including those old flowered ones and with pods, come from same species.
2. This plant is locally known as KATHSHOLA (where KATH = wood or woody), it is entirely wild species
3. DHONCHE, a cultivated species used as green manure, is also growing nearby areas. My previous uploads of DHONCHE is at - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/xaUdJoZOLeI/discussion
4. I do not know scientific names of both the species, but they are surely either different species or varieties or cultivars or whatever botany has in store for such plants
5. KATHSHOLA is branched shrub growing in submerged lowlands, in small ponds, ditches and even on roadside
6. The overall appearance of DHONCHE is rather Jute Plant like , a slender herb

Species Features :

• The plant grows vigorously in submerged land, while they are weak on relatively drier place (roadside plants are weak, 3-4 feet, slender, but, those at the edges of ponds and in submerged unused lands do attain a height of more than 8 feet above water surface)
• The stem is prickly at lower or base and without prickle in the upper region+branches
• The diameter of the stem at base region is that of a mature sugarcane
• adventitious roots emerge from base region and can be seen just above the water surface
• rachis and leaflets length varies according to plant health, maturity, and growing area on the stems. The leaves and leaflets at lower part is bigger than upper part of the stems

Searched for KATHSHOLA :

1. http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CEgQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.banglajol.info%2Findex.php%2FJPharma%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F347%2F342&ei=6hxnUOaRKoHprAee2oHgAg&usg=AFQjCNFFDodZZKpCXp-R8_T30aV0zVy1HA
   
2. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/2874821787/
   

Attaching some of the pictures taken today, on roadside, pond edge, flooded lowland. I have many more stored in my hard disk.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Gurcharan Singh <sing...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gurcharan Singh]

Thanks Surajit ji for excellent analysis.

Your first photograph seems to be settling the issue. I can count about 25 pairs of leaflets in one of the leaves. There don't seem any prickles, and most important standard is wider than long. This seems to be confirming your ID S. cannabina.

    You may focus on underside of some young leaves to check for pubescence.

       

-- 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[ushadi Micromini]

very nice
like it that you persevere
usha di

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--
Usha di
===========

[surajit koley]

Sir,

I was searching all my 100+ pics i recorded today. I have no picture of the underside of young leaves.

Since the place is about 2 km from my school i will surely check for pubescence on the underside of the young leaves.

One problem still remains, if it is S. cannabina then what could be the ID of DHONCHE plant.

I will try to get more data on DHONCHE and pubescence of this plant by the end of coming week.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Thank you very much Usha Di.

Regards,

surajit

[Gurcharan Singh]

Surajit ji

Your DHONCHE plant on the website (link below) has about 12-14 pairs of leaflets and standard much broader than long. That perfectly fits S. sesban

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/xaUdJoZOLeI/discussion

-- 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

--
 
 
 

[surajit koley]

Good morning Sir,

Now, as you have pointed out i notice the standard of the DHONCHE flower is much broader.

I couldn't reach those DHONCHE plants because of waterlogging.  One of my students went to that waterlogged filed and collected a flowering twig for me.

Thank you very much, Sir, once again.

Regards,

surajit

[surajitkoley]

Sir,

Received an ID suggestion, Sesbania sesban var. picta. I copy paste the ID keys below-

This is looking like Sesbania sesban var. picta

leaflets 40-50 mm long, c. 3-5 mm wide, linear-oblong, obtuse, apiculate, glabrous; stipules c. 5-7 mm long. Inflorescence an axillary raceme; 12-20-flowered, up to 15 cm long. Bract and bracteoles up to 3 mm long, caducous. Pedicel up to 12 mm long, Calyx glabrous, except the margin, c. 5 mm long, teeth c. 1 mm or less, broadly triangular. Corolla yellow, tinged with or spotted purple. 

I attach a bigger picture where flowers have spotted corolla.

Regards,

surajit

 

[surajit koley]

Sir,

Though some flowers are spotted majority of them seem to be not spotted. Attaching more flower pictures.

Regards,

surajit

 

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[surajit koley]

Sir,

I copy an entry from "Bengal Plants" by David Prain (Vol.1, page 402 onward), an ebook downloaded from the net =

Pods twisted, pendulous; flowers .5 in. or more long; stems and branches unarmed :-

....................

      Perennial, stems woody; flowers .6 in.; pods 6 in, long, sutures undulate and valves widely depressed between the seeds; small trees:-

         Flowers uniformly yellow...... aegyptiaca

         Flowers more or less coloured:-

             Standard externally dotted with purple .... aegyptiaca var. picta

             Standard externally dark maroon or purple ..... aegyptiaca var, bicolor

     Annual, stems pith like; flowers .75 in.; pods 10-12 in. long, sutures straight, valves slightly abruptly depressed between the seeds; a swamp species with tree-like stems ....... paludosa

Pods not twisted, erect or ascending (except sometimes in S. cannabina);

.........................................

...........................................

another entry from the same book reads-

539/2. Var. PICTA Prain. S. aegyptiaca F. B. I. ii. 114 partly.

Cultivated fairly commonly.

A small tree.

...............

540. SESBANIA PALUDOSA Prain. S. aculeata var. paludosa F. B. I. ii. 115 partly. Aeschynomene paludosa F. I. iii. 333. E. D. S. 1164.

Central and Eastern Bengal, in jheels; common.

A tall marsh plant with tree-like stems. Beng. Kath-sola

Again, i copy entries from "An English Index to The Plants of India" by Piddington, another e-book downloaded from the net-

page2-

Aeschynomene

grandiflora, (white and red) = BOK-PHOOL (in Bengali)

Sesban, (yellow and purple) .............

             .................

             paludosa = SHOLA; SOLA; Kath-Shola.

             cannabina = DHUNCHA.

page 207 & 209 of the same book reads-

Shola; Sola = Aeschynomene paludosa

Entries from yet another e-book, "HORTUS SUBURBANUS CALCUTTENSIS" (A Catalogue of The Plants which have been cultivated in the Hon. East India Company's Botanical Garden, Calcutta, and in the Serampore Botanical Garden....) by Voigt.

page 216=

Sesbania aegyptiaca Pers. ........... JUYUNTEE (in Bengali).......... cultivated and extensively used...........

Since, these books can be downloaded freely from the net i hope they are not copyrighted and i attach screenshots from those books

[surajit koley]

Sir,

I think this species is Sesbania paludosa Prain, a synonym of S. javanica Miq. as per The Plant List. This is a shrub, not herb as i have mentioned before, the stem can attain a diameter of a bamboo culm. This is purely wild species.

Biodiversity Library has some old accounts of S. javanica - http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/name/Sesbania_javanica

Attaching a page from an ebook that mentions a plant, S. paludosa Roxb., available at - http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/384865#page/262/mode/1up

Also attaching two more images.