Re: [IBM1130] Huge IBM 1800 find

[David Cortesi]

From the text "lauantai 21. maaliskuuta" (saturday 21 march) I deduce you are in Finland?

Where is the machine?

How far do you have to move it?

How much time do you have to finish the move?

What kind of place will you put it in?

Oh -- how did they get it up to the second floor originally?

Maybe there was some kind of hoist or crane outside?

Or, if there is a big window, maybe you could hire a crane now?

[Johannes Thelen]

Hi David!

I have very limited time to pickup. My plan is first pickup small items on next week, and make master plan how I get cabinets out of the building. Probably cabinets came from the window (whole building made same time as this machine installed, maybe they made building around 1800...), but it is not option for now. Best plan what I have so far, is take big truck and lot of men with me. Firstly I have lighten cabinets by removing power sources and then rolling cabinets over plywoods on stairs. If it looks too risky, then is have to figure out something else. I'm not worried, I'm optimist ;)

It is in Finland, but I can't reveal machine's exact location publicly, because donating contract have some conditions. This is big company where IBM is coming from and they want keep low profile. Later I'll make full historical reveal of this machine's days back then to my blog: ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi (now just Finnish, later also in English) ...and I promise it have some real history behind it :D

I wrote this IBM find to the Classic Computer mail list, I attach here copy of my text, so all can see background of this finding:

I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning...

I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I really couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateway theory is right, Commodores are step to mainframes ...)

Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and he sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM.

Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is in their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate anywhere. But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better than nothing I thought.

After couple months, I went to there to see IBM.  Boss had changed at that time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big iron, no doubt it.  We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service in dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It have stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk packs was left probably just where they are 30 years ago. 

Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0

System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, terminals, card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system!

Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet that easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you want". :D

So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always wanted, own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the trick as well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like below 200 at 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is totally unlikely you could find anything this good at Finland these days.

**************

But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light those "little" bit. 

I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?

I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)

Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!


- Johannes Thelen
Finland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/

[Clare Owens]

Oh my gosh!  I have never seen an1800 that large.  Must be 8 or nine cabinets.  With 2311 drives is must have been set up to handle a lot more data than the machines I was used to, although the one at Airco Speer had two of the three drive 1810 cabinets.

This system looks like it must have had many hundreds of digital and or analog I/O points. 

But you know, I did work with the guys at Westinghouse in Buffalo on a project to automate a storage and retrieval system for Caterpillar in Illinois.  That 1800 was a big one and had 2311 drives as well as two tape drives.  They had hired away one of our 1800 systems engineers and formally offered me a job but I had to turn it down since it would have involved travel all over the world for extended periods in order to work on warehouse systems.  Could this be one of those???  There was one in the works somewhere in Scandinavia that they wanted me for.  But we had three small children and I couldn't leave my family for long periods like this job would have required.  So I stayed with IBM.

Anyway, I have the complete 1977 IBM Systems and Machines catalog here and have scanned the 1130 and 1800 pages if having them would be of interest.

As someone already pointed out, there should be big rolling racks of the ALD manuals for this system.  If they really just left it all as it was, those books should be there and would have the diagrams you need.

Just getting the list of standard and RPQ features on the system will be a must if you hope to get this system operating.  Also there should be a lot of card decks with the MPX system sources that you need to do the original MPX setup, as well as the portions of MPX that were distributed in object form, (as I recall from so very long ago...).

I wish you success and safety in getting this tremendous find into as safe place.

Clare

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[Johannes Thelen]

Yes, there is analog and digital IO several hundreds, all options but no tape drives (because this is 1801).

Interesting story, I think there is several 1800s still around, because they made around 2000 of these beautys, and what comes industry, it is not unusual something is forgotten tens of years to warehouse (I've seen this some many times)... We had these 1800s several here Finand, I'll try to track down all of them, but it is quite job, all are big national companies these days, and finding right persons who know something are hard to find (if you even get anyone to answer to you...)

I hope there is all documents still somewhere, last time I visit there, I coudn't see those there. It is possible something have gone junk in all these years :/

But I doubt this one of those what you mentioned, this have been "normal" process control use. However, it was some kind of dissapointment in its use, because of its poor performance.

I have good home for it, and I'm building new warehouse at summer, where this gets its own place (...and maybe later there would be whole living computer museum, I hope :D ). All are welcome to see it, if you guys ever lost to Finland!

Ps. Please send me scans of catalog, I'd love to see it! Thank you!

[Peter Flass]

I recall watching IBM move a system z box. Of course we had a freight elevator, but the box was encased in plywood (IIRC) which had handles to allow it to be moved easily. if you have clearance in the stairway I'd think about this, then several guys could move a cabinet more securely.

[John R Pierce]

On 3/22/2015 4:47 PM, 'Peter Flass' via IBM1130 wrote:
> I recall watching IBM move a system z box. Of course we had a freight elevator, but the box was encased in plywood (IIRC) which had handles to allow it to be moved easily. if you have clearance in the stairway I'd think about this, then several guys could move a cabinet more securely.

this cabinet is close to a metric ton. take more than a few guys to
move that safely.

my concern about disassembly is, I'm pretty sure the massive
transformers and such are all random wired, not modular, and 40 year old
power wiring harnesses are not going to be real happy about being
disturbed, the insulation is likely very brittle.


--
john, recycling bits in santa cruz

[Brian Knittel]

Hello Johannes,

This is an amazing find! I'm so excited to hear about it. And incredibly excited that an IBM 1800 operating system might get recovered!

When we moved our IBM 1130 system down a stairway a few years ago, we hired a piano mover. Moving an 800 lb extremely delicate box was just another day's work for him, it was inexpensive, and he thought it was fun change from moving pianos so he charged even less. He had a very interesting "toboggan" that he used to slide the stuff down the stairs. He and one helper got our three cabinets into a panel truck without a lift gate, a meter off the ground, using just very clever tricks and leverage. I would never have been able to do it even with five men built like moose.

If you can get the 1800 split into separate cabinets, a piano mover might just have the tools and skills to make an easy job of it.

Regards,

Brian

If you can get the cabinets separated, a piano mover might be a good option.