Regarding Chanakya

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Bharat Churiwala

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Mar 29, 2010, 5:03:36 AM3/29/10
to Devotees of Holy Trio

Respected Vaibhavji,

 

My humble pranaams to you for your continous endeavour of publishing RASHTRA CHETANA an internet bi-monthly magazine. I sincerely apologise for not able to contribute nowadays much, except forwarding some articles written by our Rev. Swami Samarpananandaji.

 

I also apologise in responding to your mail about my views on Chanakya Niti. Right from my childhood days whatever I have learned and understood that Chankya always epitomized SHREWDNESS and DIPLOMACY???? 

 

Here under I give some of THOUGHTS OF CHANAKYA.  

 

"A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and Honest people are victimised first."

 
Even if a snake is not poisonous, it should pretend to be venomous." (Hypocrisy!!! Please remember the parable of Thakurji of You should Hiss!!!)

 

The biggest guru-mantra is: Never share your secrets with anybody. ! It will destroy you." (Anybody, means Guru, Wife, etc?)


There is some self-interest behind every RELATIONSHIP. There is no relationship without self-interests. This is a bitter truth." (Even Guru Shishya relationship?)

 

Before you start some work, always ask yourself three questions - Why am I doing it, What the results might be and Will I be successful. Only when you think deeply and find satisfactory answers to these questions, go ahead."

 

Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest." (Aren’t these totally contradictory?)

 

A wise man should marry a virgin of a respectable family even if she is deformed. He should not marry one of a low-class family, through beauty. Marriage in a family of equal status is preferable.

 

Women have hunger two-fold, shyness four-fold, daring six-fold, and lust eight-fold as compared to men. (How can ALL WOMEN CAN BE DESCRIBED LIKE THIS?)

 

Untruthfulness, rashness, guile, stupidity, avarice, uncleanliness and cruelty are a women's seven natural flaws. (This is an atrocious statement? Thakur used to say, THERE ARE WOMEN WHO ARE  VIDYAMAYA and AVIDYAMAYA?)

 

Give your daughter in marriage to a good family, engage your son in learning, see that your enemy comes to grief, and engage your friends in dharma.

 

Give up a member to save a family, a family to save a village, a village to save a country, and the country to save yourself.

 

Respected Devotees, I am not A FANATIC FOLLOWER OF SWAMIJI, but as Gomuji, confirmed, Why Swamiji never mentioned Chanakya's name or about his philosophy?

 

In short, I dont find any POSITIVITY IN CHANAKYA'S THOUGHTS!!! I will definitely like to CORRECT MY UNDERSTANDING, if someone otherwise throw some more light on GREATNESS OF CHANAKYA???

 

 

Bharat Churiwala

 

Lastly, I am enclosing one image of Chanakya!!! Look at it closely!!!! It may be an artist's impression!!! But what impression we get from this image??? And now look at Swamiji's Actual Photo!!!! My purpose is not at all to compare Swamiji with Chanakya or Chanakya with Swamiji but I will like to quote Shri Ravindranath Tagore, "If you want to know about India, study Swami Vivekananda. In him everything is positive, nothing negative."



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manisha k

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Mar 29, 2010, 5:21:15 AM3/29/10
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INDEED!!
 
"If you want to know about India, study Swami Vivekananda. In him everything is positive.."
 
Infact,
If one wants to learn the most basic & essentials of life  -
Charitra (Character) And Aacharana (Conduct),
learn  About  &  From SwAmi VivekAnanda ji!!
 
Jai Shree SwAmiji MaharAj Ji Ki
 


 
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SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
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Soorya

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Mar 29, 2010, 8:34:06 AM3/29/10
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Dear Bharatji,

Eventhough your email is directed to Vaibhav, may i make a few points.

We shouldnt make the mistake of comparing a lion with an elephant. Each is great in it's own place! :-)

First of all i have never come across these quotes of Chanakya.

The quotes of Chanakya you have noted below(most of them) are relevant to a King or a ruler, not to one who chooses renunciation and wants to live as a monk. The path of each is different and so are the guidelines, Chanakya seems shrewd sometimes, but he was a patriot. One cannot forget that, and he had exceptional genius at politics and economics - he is unequalled in these with anyone in world history. I dont know much about politics or economics, but as much as Chanakya's works have been studied, people have found it difficult to rate him.

The quotes about women does sound bit atrocious, but it cannot be forgotten that such women existed alot, still do, his warnings are against such women who have alot of destructive power, that they can destroy nations altogether. Maybe he shouldnt have generalized his statement :-) . Somehow i am not feeling offended by it :-)

Regards,
Soorya

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Bharat Churiwala <bchur...@msn.com> wrote:

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SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
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"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods;
There is a rapture on the lonely shore;
There is society, where none intrudes,
By the deep sea, and music in its roar;
I love not man the less, but Nature more..."

Bharat Churiwala

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Mar 29, 2010, 9:16:50 AM3/29/10
to Devotees of Holy Trio
Respected Sooryaji,
 
Pranaams.
 
First of all let me very emphatically state that there is NO QUESTION OF MY COMPARING SWAMIJI WITH "ANYONE"!!!!
 
Secondly, some of the quotes I have taken from CHANAKYA'S NITI recieved few days back in our group only.
 
And let me state humbly, I HAVE COPIED AND PASTED ALL OF THEM, NOT A COMA OR FULLSTOP HAS BEEN ADDED BY ME.
 
And with all due respect to your opinion, still I feel that CHANAKYA should not be ROLE MODEL FOR OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS.
 
I will still maintain that MANY OF HIS UTTERANCES ARE DIRECTED AGAINST A PARTICULAR SECTION OF SOCIETY.
 
You have given justification to many of these quotes, but what about this one,
"Give up a member to save a family, a family to save a village, a village to save a country, and the country to save yourself."
 
Today only someone was telling me that "Swami Ramdev should be Chanakya and should not try to be Chandragupta?" I dont know what it means but the fact is Chandragupta Maurya was a great ruler and Chanakya was his Minister. This is my knowledge of history.
 
I will still wait for some more opinions and reply from Vaibhavji specially.
 
 
Bharat 
 



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Soorya

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Mar 29, 2010, 9:36:10 AM3/29/10
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Dear Bharatji,

Thanks for replying.

My knowledge of Chanakya is limited to what i learnt in history about how he singlehandedly brought up a maid's son(Chandragupta Maurya), seeing that the boy had exceptional intelligence inspite of being only a maid's son. He saw thru the boy and decided here is the one who will bring back mother India back in Her glory, the India which was lost to the lazy humbugs called the Nanda dynasty and a lot of petty rulers. Chanakya was personally insulted by the Nanda king at his palace and he vowed to dethrone the vile Nandas and only then tie his tuft of hair which was undid as the soldiers threw him out of the court. We must remember he was a very learned Brahmin. The Greeks invaded us and there was barely very few of Indians who posed a defence, save the brave king Porus. I am sure you have read/learnt about how he(Chanakya) appealed to all of the rulers of little kingdoms in India to unite and fight the foreigners for the sake of their motherland. His appeal was unheard and the Greeks won over many a Indian province. Later he strived to train Chandragupta Maurya in military as well as political skills and Maurya gathered up a mighty army that chased the Greeks all the way back to Macedonia.

I have seen some of the serial "Chanakya" tele-cast on Doordarshan years back. I believe its available for download via torrent, its a very good one and gives a good idea about the man who actually moulded India into unity when she was politically disintegrating.

I really believe it is not quite apt to try to interpret the words of a statesman and say they dont match with the words of a saint. Looking at it from this angle, i feel Chanakya's words are quite apt. Even where he says marry a virgin even if she is deformed, the emphasis is on the character of the woman, and her family. In those days(even now), the woman's role in the family was crucial and hence her character needed to be pristine. No point in arguing that its not right to question a woman's purity and all, as i am sure Chanakya is a man who saw greatness in a maid's son, he foresaw that a maid's son could rule mighty India(the India which had it borders running into Iran and Afghanistan)

Regards,
Soorya


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SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
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Soorya

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Mar 29, 2010, 9:42:55 AM3/29/10
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I would like to add "Chanakya was not just a minister to Chandragupta Maurya, he was the one who made Chandragupta Maurya". But for him, there would be no Mauryas and heaven knows what would have been the history of our country from then.

I believe people fail to understand the man and so make such glib comments about him, that so and so should have been Chanakya :-)

Regards,
Soorya

Tirtha Mitra

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Mar 29, 2010, 12:07:44 PM3/29/10
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Swamiji while recollecting his lessons on ethics in school remembered this lesson as "For the good of a village, a man ought to give up his family; for the good of a country, he ought to give up his village; for the good of humanity, he may give up his country; for the good of the world, everything."

 

--

Vaibhav Khire

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Mar 29, 2010, 10:27:00 PM3/29/10
to Devotees of Holy Trio
Dear Bharatji,

Before I say anything, let me make a couple of points clear.
1) In today's world, the words of Swamiji and Thakur are the most
important and it would be really childish to argue the case of
Chanakya over Swamiji. That being said, there is still something good
in Chanakya's philosophy but I will come to that in a minute.
2) Just like most of the ancient Indians, there are hardly any
original pictures/paintings of Chanakya. So please do not read too
much into the photo. Each painter/sculptor tries to portray his/her
impression. For e.g. if you see the Buddha-murthis in China and India
you would see the Buddha in China looks Chinese and vice versa. We
have been lucky to have original photos or Swamiji and that is good.

It is not possible for me or anyone to "justify" all utterances of
Chanakya, nor do we know how many of them are true. But let us see
what is the most important contribution of the man? 200 years after
Budhha's death, Alexander was attacking India and he was coming at the
"invitation" of the border-king Ambhi (who ruled the current
Afghanisthan". Chanakya was then a teacher of politics in the
university in Takshashila (which if I am not wrong is somewhere in
Pakistan or on the border now). Chanakya realized the great danger
that Alexander posed to India and left his job and went to all the
kingdoms in the area. (Compare this with how Swamiji always urged the
kings of princely states to work for the welfare of common masses in
his travel). The kings were so self-engrossed in their own petty
fights that noone paid any attention. He realized that the only one
powerful enough to stop Alexander was the kindgom of Magadh and so he
went there begging the king Dhananand to organize a united front
against Alexander.

But this king Dhananand was so selfish and corrupt that he would make
our present day politicians look like saints. He insulted Chanakya and
drove him out of the kingdom. At this Chanakya realized none of the
established rulers would do anything and instead raised an army of
brahmacharis and soldiers. This in itself would be unique in the
country. However, Alexander lost the support of his army and was
forced to leave India, but he still left a large colonial empire. The
fight of Chanakya was against this foreign rule as well as the rule of
the corrupt Nandas, which he ultimately won.

Forgetting the individual utterances, just look at the qualities which
Chanakya exhibits. Extreme patriotism, for which he left his teaching
and stayed a brahma-chari throughout his life! Is that not something
Swamiji would have appreciated? He single-handedly united enough men
in an army to overthrow India's largest empire! Even Swamiji says that
Mauryas were the greatest and just rulers of India. The Maurya dynasty
was started with Chandragupta Maurya and Chanakya was his guru! It is
said that he established a very just system of governance and saved
thousands of people from the atrocious Nandas.

Lastly, as I mentioned earlier, I cannot justify all of his utterances
but that is due to my limited knowledge. Also there is doubt even as
to their truth. Plus a lot of the verses are singled out of context
and that often deviates the meaning. But we have the life of the man
in front of us and I dont think there is anything bad in it.

That is my humble understanding. Let me end with a couple of quotes
from Chanakya-niti, which show the ideology of the man:
1) "The secret task of a king is to strive for the welfare of his
people incessantly. The administration of the kingdom is his religious
duty. His greatest gift wouldbe to treat all as equals. The happiness
of the commoners is the happiness of the king. Theirwelfare is his
welfare. A king should never think of his personal interestor welfare,
but should try to find his joy in the joy of his subjects."

2) Let not a single day pass without your learning a verse, half a
verse, or a fourth of it, or even one letter of it; nor without
attending to charity, study and other pious activity.

3) A man's descent may be discerned by his conduct, his country by his
pronunciation of language, his friendship by his warmth and glow, and
his capacity to eat by his body.

4) There is no poverty for the industrious. Sin does not attach itself
to the person practicing japa (chanting of the holy names of the
Lord). Those who are absorbed in
maunam (silent contemplation of the Lord) have no quarrel with others.
They are fearless who remain always alert.

5) Learning is like a cow of desire. It, like her, yields in all
seasons. Like a mother, it feeds you on your journey. Therefore
learning is a hidden treasure.

6) Charity puts and end to poverty; righteous conduct to misery;
discretion to ignorance; and scrutiny to fear.

7) Heaven is but a straw to him who knows spiritual life; so is life
to a valiant man; a woman to him who has subdued his senses; and the
universe to him who is without attachment for the world.

8) A man attains greatness by his merits, not simply by occupying an
exalted seat. Can we call a crow an eagle (garuda) simply because he
sits on the top of a tall building.

You can see the entire Chanakya-niti at this website:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37031/Chanakya-Niti-Shastra

Hari Om!
~Vaibhav.

Bharat Churiwala

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Apr 1, 2010, 8:27:40 AM4/1/10
to Devotees of Holy Trio
Respected Vaibhavji & Tirthaji,
 
Pranaam.
 
I am sorry if I am sounding little adamant, but the fact is that I am not getting answers to my particular points which I have raised in my first mail:
 

A person should not be too honest 

Before you start some work, always ask yourself three questions - Why am I doing it, What the results might be and Will I be successful. Only when you think deeply and find satisfactory answers to these questions, go ahead."

Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest." (Aren’t these totally contradictory?)

Women have......... lust eight-fold as compared to men.

Untruthfulness, rashness, guile, stupidity, avarice, uncleanliness and cruelty are a women's seven natural flaws. Does it mean that ALL MAN NATURALLY TRUTHFUL, GUILELESS, KIND HEARTED... 

 

And Lastly, how can one say such thing............

 

Give up a member to save a family, a family to save a village, a village to save a country, and the country to save yourself.

 
I am really extremely sorry to be persistent, since nowadays I think that any point of view which I take or raise in the group, is meeting either with opposite views or just ignored...
 
As far as Chanakya is concerned you all will agree that HE WAS MORE OF A POLITICIAN AND DIPLOMAT!!!! No one will raise any objection to the point that HE WAS ONE OF SHREWDEST PERSON IN INDIAN HISTORY.
 
SHREWDNESS CANNOT BE CALLED A VIRTUE!!!
 
Oxford Dictionary says:  — ORIGIN of word SHREWD originally in the sense evil in nature or character: from SHREW in the obsolete sense evil person or thing, or as the past participle of obsolete shrew to curse.
 
Oxford Dictionary has one more word equivalent to this that is GUILE!!!

guile:  noun sly or cunning intelligence.

    — ORIGIN Old French, related to WILE.

 
Thakur uses word  GUILELESS or GUILELESSNESS 68 times in whole of Gospel!!!!!
 
Thakur says, "Unless a man is guileless, he cannot so easily have faith in God."   P. 865
 
Finally, my purpose of raising this issue was no way to belittle Chanakya or his philosophy. But as a devotee of Holy Trio, above mentioned things and many other acts and ommissions didnt suit my temperament!!!!
 
On a lighter side, GABBAR SINGH BECAME MORE POPULAR THAN THAKUR, JAI AND VEERU and EVEN CHARACTER OF A K HANGAL (I dont even remember the name!!), that is present scenario..... 
 
Bharat
 
I ask apology in advance if I am hurting yours or anyone else's view and opinion. 

shashank

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Apr 1, 2010, 9:11:46 AM4/1/10
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Dear Bharatji

I fully agree with your questions.

As you know I have become an adept silent mango eater for the last two years. But this mango was a little difficult to savour.

There are many schools of thoughts, each one pioneered by a thinker of various ages. These schools of thoughts have also been termed many a times as "philosophy". Chanakya has also propounded a school of thought.

But "Holy Trio" is not a school of thought. It is a way of life. A way of life that ensures that we get the taste of the nectar.

A school of thought can never ensure that.

I think the subject of Chanakya is not worth discussing on this forum.

Thanks and regards
Shashank

Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel


From: Bharat Churiwala <bchur...@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 17:57:40 +0530
To: Devotees of Holy Trio<holy_t...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Devotees of Holy Trio:20283] Regarding Chanakya

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Rita Basumallick

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:01:11 PM4/1/10
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I second
Rita


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NAREN RANA

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:44:17 PM4/1/10
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JAI SRI RAMAKRISHNA

 [ The Current Coin]


Sent from from my Desktop PC

naren rana

.
--
Ramakrishna pada sharana sada,
[(You who are) Ever surrendered at the feet of Ramakrishna]
Pada saroja tava pranami sada
[My Salutations to Your lotus feet].

Purnendu Mukerjee

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Apr 1, 2010, 12:49:25 PM4/1/10
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I too agree with Shashankji
--
O Lord please grant me this faith that You are always holding my hand.

Gowri Balasubramanian

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Apr 1, 2010, 8:48:15 PM4/1/10
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I also agree with Sri Sashank, and Ms.Rita

Gowri.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:41 PM, shashank <shashank....@gmail.com> wrote:



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WHEN YOU ARE INSPIRED...DORMANT FORCES, CAPABILITIES AND TALENTS BECOME ALIVE-PATANJALI.

Soorya

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Apr 1, 2010, 9:04:20 PM4/1/10
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Here is the link to the complete Chanakya Niti, i liked many of them, for instance :
"He who gives up what is imperishable for that which is perishable, loses that which is imperishable; and doubtlessly loses that which is perishable also."

Soorya

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Apr 1, 2010, 9:08:34 PM4/1/10
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This is also too good, and proves he knew what made a true woman :-)

"16. Even from poison extract nectar, wash and take back gold if it has fallen in filth, receive the highest knowledge (Krsna consciousness) from a low born person; so also a girl possessing virtuous qualities (stri-ratna) even if she were born in a disreputable family."

Soorya

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Apr 1, 2010, 9:28:17 PM4/1/10
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Dear Ones,

Found this nice interview on net :


The interviewer asked ,
But Chanakya is known to be ruthlessly manipulative and cunning.  
Yes, I know Chankaya is used in derogatory terms. No one names their kid that, even though if colonies and businesses are named so. But, he's a much misunderstood man. He was of the opinion that you should life with high values like honesty and truth, but before you live like a saint, buy a gun. Otherwise, the world will send you to the Himalayas. Today, your weapon is your contacts, your strategies, and your integrity. We don't realise his greatness because we compare him to saints when he was only a state-crafter. It's like saying Abraham Lincoln was not a good sculptor. If India doesn't get its modern Chanakya soon, it will lose it's advantageous position.


Tirtha Mitra

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Apr 2, 2010, 1:44:32 AM4/2/10
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Bharatji,
I gave my interpretation in blue. The views are entirely my personal without any influence of any book. Let others comment on this also.
Jai Sri Ramakrishna

Tirthankar


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Bharat Churiwala <bchur...@msn.com> wrote:
Respected Vaibhavji & Tirthaji,
 
Pranaam.
 
I am sorry if I am sounding little adamant, but the fact is that I am not getting answers to my particular points which I have raised in my first mail:
 

A person should not be too honest 
Before you start some work, always ask yourself three questions - Why am I doing it, What the results might be and Will I be successful. Only when you think deeply and find satisfactory answers to these questions, go ahead."

Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest." (Aren’t these totally contradictory?) -- I do not think so. Here he is emphasizing the need for planning. Before beginning any work one must plan and look into pros and cons. But once the work is undertaken it should not be abandoned in middle and finished irrespective of end result. This is a very practical approach.

Women have......... lust eight-fold as compared to men.

Untruthfulness, rashness, guile, stupidity, avarice, uncleanliness and cruelty are a women's seven natural flaws. Does it mean that ALL MAN NATURALLY TRUTHFUL, GUILELESS, KIND HEARTED... I would interpret this as Thakur's cautions to all men about women. Thakur never showed any disrespect to women but merely cautioned the men to avoid company of women. Such exaggeration and strong aversion towards women was probably necessary for building his team of Brahmacharis. So we have to see under what circumstance and to whom he addressed this.

 

And Lastly, how can one say such thing............

 

Give up a member to save a family, a family to save a village, a village to save a country, and the country to save yourself. Is he not preaching the highest truth by this? A Sanyasin has to renounce even his country for the salvation of the soul. Why don't we see it this way?

 
I am really extremely sorry to be persistent, since nowadays I think that any point of view which I take or raise in the group, is meeting either with opposite views or just ignored...
 
As far as Chanakya is concerned you all will agree that HE WAS MORE OF A POLITICIAN AND DIPLOMAT!!!! No one will raise any objection to the point that HE WAS ONE OF SHREWDEST PERSON IN INDIAN HISTORY.
 
SHREWDNESS CANNOT BE CALLED A VIRTUE!!!
 
Oxford Dictionary says:  — ORIGIN of word SHREWD originally in the sense evil in nature or character: from SHREW in the obsolete sense evil person or thing, or as the past participle of obsolete shrew to curse.
 
Oxford Dictionary has one more word equivalent to this that is GUILE!!!

guile:  noun sly or cunning intelligence.

    — ORIGIN Old French, related to WILE.

 
Thakur uses word  GUILELESS or GUILELESSNESS 68 times in whole of Gospel!!!!!
 
Thakur says, "Unless a man is guileless, he cannot so easily have faith in God."   P. 865
 
Finally, my purpose of raising this issue was no way to belittle Chanakya or his philosophy. But as a devotee of Holy Trio, above mentioned things and many other acts and ommissions didnt suit my temperament!!!!
 
On a lighter side, GABBAR SINGH BECAME MORE POPULAR THAN THAKUR, JAI AND VEERU and EVEN CHARACTER OF A K HANGAL (I dont even remember the name!!), that is present scenario..... 
 
Bharat
 
I ask apology in advance if I am hurting yours or anyone else's view and opinion. 



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Bharat Churiwala

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Apr 2, 2010, 5:57:28 AM4/2/10
to Devotees of Holy Trio
Respected Sooryaji,
 
Pranaam.
 
If you remember, in my last mail, I mentioned something about GABBAR SINGH being more popular than all other characters of film SHOLAY!!!!
 
What my point was that NOWADAYS NEGATIVITY, VILOENCE, MANIPULATIVENESS, SHREWDNESS, etc are considered as NECCESITIES and even VIRTUES!!!!
 
I was astonished at reading this particular sentence "before you live like a saint, buy a gun. Otherwise, the world will send you to the Himalayas."
 
Now I understand that why Swamiji did not mention a single word about this "STATE-CRAFTER"?
 
Not only that Swamiji clearly mentions one thing about "GUN" (He uses word, "sword") as under:
 
"The whole of Western civilisation will crumble to pieces in the next fifty years if there is no spiritual foundation. It is hopeless and perfectly useless to attempt to govern mankind with the sword. You will find that the very centres from which such ideas as government by force sprang up are the very first centres to degrade and degenerate and crumble to pieces. Europe, the centre of the manifestation of material energy, will crumble into dust within fifty years if she is not mindful to change her position, to shift her ground and make spirituality the basis of her life. And what will save Europe is the religion of the Upanishads."
CW Vol 3 P.159 
 
Interview which you have given reference to mentions about KABIR and CONFUCIOUS also?
Please read something more about KABIR, and you were realize that ONE PERSON CANNOT BE KABIR AND CHANKYA AT THE SAME TIME???? THEY WERE TOTALLY OPPOSITE KIND OF PERSONS???


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Soorya

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Apr 2, 2010, 7:34:34 AM4/2/10
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Dear Bharatji,

The reference to the gun is in view of self defence, not for attacking others.
I dont see why self-defence is so bad, isnt it our primary duty to safeguard our country and ourselves?
And again those words are from a particular person, they are his ways of expressing his thoughts about being prepared if someone came to attack us by force.

 Swamiji said the same too, he said the Hindus whine instead of defending their homes, he was disappointed with our lot and even advocated meat-eating so that we build some muscular strength to be able to defend ourseleves. You will find these in the reminiscences of Swamiji. 

Yes, he said that anything based on materialism will crumble down and its true. There is no conflict between his ideals and Chanakya's, the latter's quotes are about safeguarding one's borders only.

Swamiji always saw the greatness of those whom we met, Sister Nivedita and several others have noted how he made everyone who came in touch with him appear great.Just because we dont find any reference of his ever having said anything about Chanakya doesnt imply Chanakya is wicked, that would be the most childish thing :-). He may well have mentioned him and maybe no one recorded it, or maybe he didnt. His goal in life was not to analyze each person in history alone, he came with a greater mission to awaken India and that too in so short a time!

Having read so much of his literature, we should now be adept at evaluating things ourselves, with his grace.

Regards,
Soorya 

Regards,
Soorya

--
SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
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Soorya

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Apr 2, 2010, 8:11:26 AM4/2/10
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Dear Bharatji and Devotees,

The below links are from Chanakya serial, a well researched one:

The first one is a song "Hum Kare Raashtra Aaradhan" - a patriotic song:


This is where Chanakya appeals to the Kings for help to save India from the Greek invaders.None listens to him

There are several other videos on this serial available in youtube.

Regards,
Soorya

vineeth

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Apr 3, 2010, 12:16:46 PM4/3/10
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Swami Vivekananda said,
 "Seek the science of the maker and not that of the made." ( Inspired talks )
I think what Chanakya said about the "made" was from his own samskaras and his own projections of his subconscious mind, not inline with the holy trio.


--
SWADHYAYA PRAVACHANABHYAM NA PRAMADITAVYAM
{Be not negligent about the study and exposition of scriptures. - Taittriya Upanishad}
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Vaibhav Khire

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Apr 6, 2010, 2:02:21 AM4/6/10
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Respected Bharatji,

Sorry for the delay in replying but I was busy for last 3-4 days.
However I feel devotees in the group feel this topic should not be
extended. If that is so, feel free to delete this post and I will of
course respect your judgement.

I didnt want to address your specific points because I thought one
should dwell on only those points of a man's life which history knows
for sure, rather than those of whose authenticity we are not sure.
Most of the quotations comes from Chanakya-niti but noone knows how
many of those versesare actually from his writings and how many have
been added later!

But there is definitely no denying that he was a patriot and
sacrificed his life's work for fighting the foreign invasion. Just
like we talk today of the "British invasion and British Raj" or the
"Muslim rule in India", we are fortunate to NOT HAVE TO TALK about a
"Greek era" or there are no stories of Greek rulers in India!! And for
this we need to thank Chanakya. Whether the spread of Buddhism was a
good or bad thing is a matter of debate but the kingdom of Ashoka was
the greatest and most united form of empire in India extending from
Kandahar to Sri Lanka and Arabic Ocean to almost China!!! For years he
brought stability peace and prosperity to entire Bharat. Ashoka was
the grandson of Chandragupta, whom Chanakya crowned as king!

I agree the philosophy of Chanakya is not for everyone but surely
atleast the politicians and statesmen of today need to follow his
course of action! Today every state of India if fighting with another
state! Marathis are fighting with North Indians, Tamils are fighting
with Kannadas, Gujrat and MP are fighting for Narmada water, the
Naxals are openly asking for a separate government and for 50 years
several forces are trying to separate Kashmir!!! How much do we need a
man with the amazing unifying power of Chanakya who single-handedly
united the entire India!! If we can sing the glories of Shivaji and
Rana Pratap, of Bhagat Singh and those others who died for the nation,
cant we atleast give the respect of being a patriot to this great man
whose contribution would be no less than any others mentioned?

I already mentioned I cannot defend each and every sentence attributed
to Chanakya since we neither know the authenticity nor the context of
that. Also I am no scholar..But you mentioned this quote "Give up a


member to save a family, a family to save a village, a village to save
a country, and the country to save yourself."

The first three lines are very evident. I was reminded of Swamiji's
story of the family of birds who one by one fell in the fire to
satisfy the hunger of visitors staying under their tree. A man (if it
helps) must sacrifice his life for the family. Here, "sacrifice" need
not mean kill oneself, but essentially "renounce" everything he has
for his family. And indeed we see thousands of examples every day
where a mother leaves all her hobbies, career etc for the family and
so does the father leave his likes for his children. In the same way,
a family must sacrifice itself, all its interests for the benefit of a
village. If by giving up the family an entire is going to be saved
from some catastrophe it is indeed the dharma of the family to give up
their interest. Similarly a village can give up the self-interest for
the nation.
The only part which is any contradictory is "and the country to save
oneself". I think here by "Self" he mean one's soul or Atman. If one
can gain the knowledge of Atman by leaving one's country or
sacrificing one's allegiance to one's country must do that because
after all there is nothing more important than realizing one's self. I
feel that is the proper context of explaining the phrase, "and the
country to save oneself". A realized man can help the country, village
and family, and an unrealized man can not even help himself.

I could be completely wrong but if one has to explain the words I
think that is the proper context. Of course, I would still urge you
and all other devotees to look at the patriotic, courageous and the
unifying side of Chanakya and not go after simple utterance which we
do not even know if they are true or not!!

Anyway I feel I have said too much already in the term of arguments
and I might have offended those in front of whom I should not be
saying anything. I hope you will forgive this outburst. Like I said
before, if you feel please delete this whole mail if it is
inappropriate.

Hari Om and pranaam!
~Vaibhav.

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