[Harp-L] Chromatic KEY choices
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dfw...@flash.net
Mar 14, 2017, 8:14:00 AM3/14/17
to har...@harp-l.org
Just a curious question. Playing in different keys and modes on the Chromatic , is it easier to change to a different key chromatic , or just stay on a C harp.
Jerl Welch
Jerl Welch
fmajor7
Mar 14, 2017, 8:23:08 AM3/14/17
to dfw...@flash.net, har...@harp-l.org
It is not a curious question. The whole meaning and purpose of a Chromatic
Harmonica is the ability to play in all keys - major and minor.
If you read music, then it even more necessary to use just the C- Chromatic.
Imagine trying to read a score written in 2-flat (Bb) or one # (G) and
using different keys Chromatic !
If you are planning to learn to play a Chromatic harmonica and music theory
and be able to play any song in any key then C-Chromatic is the only choice
- just like a piano.
Harmonica is the ability to play in all keys - major and minor.
If you read music, then it even more necessary to use just the C- Chromatic.
Imagine trying to read a score written in 2-flat (Bb) or one # (G) and
using different keys Chromatic !
If you are planning to learn to play a Chromatic harmonica and music theory
and be able to play any song in any key then C-Chromatic is the only choice
- just like a piano.
Joseph Leone
Mar 14, 2017, 9:36:05 AM3/14/17
to dfwhoot, har...@harp-l.org
Some people (that’s ‘some’) use different keyed chromatics in order to get a different sound. Iow they want to get into a draw key instead of a blow key. Then ‘lean’ on the draw notes.
Example: A tune is in Cm and the ends of the phrases are on blow notes on a C chromatic. So they use a Bb play it in Dm and the ends of the phrases land on draw notes. Meanwhile
they are STILL in Cm..it just sounds different. More haunting.
BUT this is all pretty involved. (I carry a transposition chart). Most of the time it’s best to stick with a C. For simplicity.
smo-joe
Example: A tune is in Cm and the ends of the phrases are on blow notes on a C chromatic. So they use a Bb play it in Dm and the ends of the phrases land on draw notes. Meanwhile
they are STILL in Cm..it just sounds different. More haunting.
BUT this is all pretty involved. (I carry a transposition chart). Most of the time it’s best to stick with a C. For simplicity.
smo-joe
fmajor7
Mar 14, 2017, 9:49:12 AM3/14/17
to Joseph Leone, har...@harp-l.org, dfwhoot
Sounds quite interesting but complicated. You can use the 4-Octave
Chromatic to get the low octave sound or the Tenor C (I use it also) which
has wonderful sound. Ron Kalina, the famous jazz chromatic player used the
Tenor just for the tone.
Toots Thielemans and all other jazz players use only the C-Chromatic.
Chromatic to get the low octave sound or the Tenor C (I use it also) which
has wonderful sound. Ron Kalina, the famous jazz chromatic player used the
Tenor just for the tone.
Toots Thielemans and all other jazz players use only the C-Chromatic.
Doug Schroer
Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:01 AM3/14/17
to Harp-l for posting
The choice of playing it all on a C or using different keys is a matter of
choice to be based on your musical goals and aspirations.
If you are beginning to learn chromatic harmonica and want to be able to
read classical music or to play music that change keys dramatically, then
working to play all keys fluently and fluidly on one instrument is the way
to go. The best way to become good on chromatic (as a horn player would
become good on a horn) is to devote yourself to mastering playing one
instrument in all keys. If you are planning on reading, then the music you
play will be in the key on the sheet music without transposition or buying
various keys of sheet music. Doing it all on one instrument is the way the
greats approached chromatic, though some renowned players were reported to
have used another key on occasion to facilitate a good performance.
Regardless of whether you decide to use different keys of chromatics later,
I recommend that you begin with just one key. Usually the key of choice is
a C instrument, though there is a lot of sheet music written for Bb
instruments and for other keys, too. Sticking to just one key for a while
while learning will help you gain skill on the instrument while you learn
your way around it. You need to learn where the intervals are located.
Later on you can explore whether you are able to or want to switch
instruments (and scales) without confusion.
However, if you can already navigate a chromatic fairly well in a few keys
and you want to expand your playing into more challenging keys so you sound
good playing in difficult keys without years of work, then in my opinion
keyed chromatics are a valid choice. It depends on the music genres you
like, the difficulty of the songs you want to play, and whether you will be
reading notes or improvising. If you want to play competently in public in
keys that are more difficult on a C chromatic, keyed chromatics are an
option.
For improvising in the Americana, folk, and roots music I like, keyed
chromatics work well for me. I can improvise readily playing by ear in keys
that would be inaccessible to me on a single instrument. I use the slide a
lot, too. This music can be played on a C (just listen to David Naditch
play bluegrass and Gypsy jazz!), but often can be more easily played on an
instrument closer to the key of the song. Chord options are different
depending on the key of the song and key of the instrument, and some keys
require difficult combinations of breath change and slide use that make
plyaing smooth phrases very difficult.
My first instrument was a Bb clarinet, so I became familiar with the
relativity of keys and the idea of transposing instruments early on. My
first chromatic at age 11 was a G chromatic, because I first experienced
chromatic harmonica when a relative played old popular songs on a chromatic
in that key at a sing-a-long by a camp fire. Saxophones come in different
keys as do some horns. It is all relative.
If you are really serious about being a good player, particularly if you
intend to read music in many keys, keep working on using the C chromatic
(or whatever key of instrument you have chosen as your key of chromatic to
learn on) for all or most of your playing.
I do not claim to be a great chromatic player, but I can perform the music
that I enjoy competently and I can improvise in all keys by using keyed
chromatics.
Doug S.
choice to be based on your musical goals and aspirations.
If you are beginning to learn chromatic harmonica and want to be able to
read classical music or to play music that change keys dramatically, then
working to play all keys fluently and fluidly on one instrument is the way
to go. The best way to become good on chromatic (as a horn player would
become good on a horn) is to devote yourself to mastering playing one
instrument in all keys. If you are planning on reading, then the music you
play will be in the key on the sheet music without transposition or buying
various keys of sheet music. Doing it all on one instrument is the way the
greats approached chromatic, though some renowned players were reported to
have used another key on occasion to facilitate a good performance.
Regardless of whether you decide to use different keys of chromatics later,
I recommend that you begin with just one key. Usually the key of choice is
a C instrument, though there is a lot of sheet music written for Bb
instruments and for other keys, too. Sticking to just one key for a while
while learning will help you gain skill on the instrument while you learn
your way around it. You need to learn where the intervals are located.
Later on you can explore whether you are able to or want to switch
instruments (and scales) without confusion.
However, if you can already navigate a chromatic fairly well in a few keys
and you want to expand your playing into more challenging keys so you sound
good playing in difficult keys without years of work, then in my opinion
keyed chromatics are a valid choice. It depends on the music genres you
like, the difficulty of the songs you want to play, and whether you will be
reading notes or improvising. If you want to play competently in public in
keys that are more difficult on a C chromatic, keyed chromatics are an
option.
For improvising in the Americana, folk, and roots music I like, keyed
chromatics work well for me. I can improvise readily playing by ear in keys
that would be inaccessible to me on a single instrument. I use the slide a
lot, too. This music can be played on a C (just listen to David Naditch
play bluegrass and Gypsy jazz!), but often can be more easily played on an
instrument closer to the key of the song. Chord options are different
depending on the key of the song and key of the instrument, and some keys
require difficult combinations of breath change and slide use that make
plyaing smooth phrases very difficult.
My first instrument was a Bb clarinet, so I became familiar with the
relativity of keys and the idea of transposing instruments early on. My
first chromatic at age 11 was a G chromatic, because I first experienced
chromatic harmonica when a relative played old popular songs on a chromatic
in that key at a sing-a-long by a camp fire. Saxophones come in different
keys as do some horns. It is all relative.
If you are really serious about being a good player, particularly if you
intend to read music in many keys, keep working on using the C chromatic
(or whatever key of instrument you have chosen as your key of chromatic to
learn on) for all or most of your playing.
I do not claim to be a great chromatic player, but I can perform the music
that I enjoy competently and I can improvise in all keys by using keyed
chromatics.
Doug S.
Joseph Leone
Mar 14, 2017, 10:50:38 AM3/14/17
to fmajor7, har...@harp-l.org, dfwhoot
Everything you said was correct fmajor7. And I wasn’t contradicting a thing. Agree totally. I was just saying that some (shall we say advanced) players ‘mess’ with tunes. Here’s an example:
Richard Hayman gave a concert at the Jackie Gleason theater in Miami. He said “I have a request for Ruby” (from the movie Ruby Gentry). He said “I haven’t done it in years (yeah…right),
but I’ll give it a try. I don’t even think that we have the music for it here”.
Sooo, Hayman starts to play the tune and guess what? The camera zooms in on the piano player and right there on the music stand is a chart for Ruby..clear as day, and ‘I’ was able to make
out ONE flat on the sheet. Which IS key of F.
Here’s what happened. Hayman, who is known to play an A tuned chromatic, played the tune in F (one flat) ON an A chromatic (3 sharps). The sound came out as bup-a da-ba…. TWO sharps
( D major ) Ok, the original movie theme was done by George Fielding IN D but George used a C chromatic. The deal IS..The ONE flat of the music cancelled out ONE sharp of the harmonica,
and the result was TWO sharps. Which is the original key.
The cool thing is that BOTH F and D are draw keys and the critical notes that set the mood are both draw notes. So the tune still sounds good. Because everyone knows that you can milk draw
notes better than blow notes.
Ok, so..it doesn’t take a nuclear archeologist to see that this can get quite involved. A person would either need the transposed charts OR have spent a lot of time on this. And for this reason I
totally agree with what you said. Best to use a C. And maybe some oither key now and then on certain tunes for effect. But a C usually suffices. The only reason why I ever experimented was
because unlike other instruments, which are ‘all blow’ (so to speak), the harmonica is a wonderful instrument that swings both ways. When I first picked one up, instead of blowing like most folks
I sucked. (still do. lolol).
25 years ago I was going to do a group presentation at SPAH but was shot down. The leaders felt that it was not the direction to send newer players on. Too involved, too confusing. But I cross
key all the time.
smokey joe
> On Mar 14, 2017, at 9:48 AM, fmajor7 <fma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds quite interesting but complicated. You can use the 4-Octave Chromatic to get the low octave sound or the Tenor C (I use it also) which has wonderful sound. Ron Kalina, the famous jazz chromatic player used the Tenor just for the tone.
> Toots Thielemans and all other jazz players use only the C-Chromatic.
>
Richard Hayman gave a concert at the Jackie Gleason theater in Miami. He said “I have a request for Ruby” (from the movie Ruby Gentry). He said “I haven’t done it in years (yeah…right),
but I’ll give it a try. I don’t even think that we have the music for it here”.
Sooo, Hayman starts to play the tune and guess what? The camera zooms in on the piano player and right there on the music stand is a chart for Ruby..clear as day, and ‘I’ was able to make
out ONE flat on the sheet. Which IS key of F.
Here’s what happened. Hayman, who is known to play an A tuned chromatic, played the tune in F (one flat) ON an A chromatic (3 sharps). The sound came out as bup-a da-ba…. TWO sharps
( D major ) Ok, the original movie theme was done by George Fielding IN D but George used a C chromatic. The deal IS..The ONE flat of the music cancelled out ONE sharp of the harmonica,
and the result was TWO sharps. Which is the original key.
The cool thing is that BOTH F and D are draw keys and the critical notes that set the mood are both draw notes. So the tune still sounds good. Because everyone knows that you can milk draw
notes better than blow notes.
Ok, so..it doesn’t take a nuclear archeologist to see that this can get quite involved. A person would either need the transposed charts OR have spent a lot of time on this. And for this reason I
totally agree with what you said. Best to use a C. And maybe some oither key now and then on certain tunes for effect. But a C usually suffices. The only reason why I ever experimented was
because unlike other instruments, which are ‘all blow’ (so to speak), the harmonica is a wonderful instrument that swings both ways. When I first picked one up, instead of blowing like most folks
I sucked. (still do. lolol).
25 years ago I was going to do a group presentation at SPAH but was shot down. The leaders felt that it was not the direction to send newer players on. Too involved, too confusing. But I cross
key all the time.
smokey joe
> On Mar 14, 2017, at 9:48 AM, fmajor7 <fma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sounds quite interesting but complicated. You can use the 4-Octave Chromatic to get the low octave sound or the Tenor C (I use it also) which has wonderful sound. Ron Kalina, the famous jazz chromatic player used the Tenor just for the tone.
> Toots Thielemans and all other jazz players use only the C-Chromatic.
>
Joseph Leone
Mar 14, 2017, 10:58:22 AM3/14/17
to Doug Schroer, Harp-l for posting
This is the best explanation I have seen on the subject. I also play clarinet, trumpet, and some tenor.
smokey joe and the cafes
smokey joe and the cafes
Richard Hunter
Mar 14, 2017, 1:59:34 PM3/14/17
to har...@harp-l.org
Jerl Welch wrote:
<Just a curious question. Playing in different keys and modes on the
Chromatic , is it easier to <change to a different key chromatic , or just
stay on a C harp.
Most of the responses to this message say stick with the C chromatic, and
<Just a curious question. Playing in different keys and modes on the
Chromatic , is it easier to <change to a different key chromatic , or just
stay on a C harp.
most of the time that's good advice. However, chromatics in different keys
are very useful if you want to use chording and the C harp doesn't support
the chords you want, or if the key you need to play in isn't so easy on a C
chromatic.
I own a CX12 in the key of E that I've used on a number of occasions. I
used it on a recording session last year where I had to play a solo in the
key of A. It was a lot more fluid on an E chromatic, where the key of A
lays out the same as the key of F on a C chromatic. (Flat keys are in most
cases easier on the chromatic than sharp keys.)
In general terms, it's always better to have the facility to play fluently
in all 12 keys on a single instrument. I've certainly spend a lot of time
working on that. But I haven't forgotten one of the great lessons of the
blues, which is to get it any way you can, or one of the great lessons of
studio work, which is to make it good enough as fast as you can.
Tommy Morgan told me that he carried two sets of chromatics in all 12 keys
to his sessions, one tuned to A440, the other to A447 so he could play the
thing hard without dipping below concert pitch, and so he could chord as
desired. If he did it, I'm not ashamed to do it.
Thanks, Richard Hunter
--
"The Lucky One" 21st century rock harmonica project at
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/richard-hunter-s-the-lucky-one/x/5259889#/
Author, "Jazz Harp" (Oak Publications, NYC)
Latest mp3s and harmonica blog at http://hunterharp.com
Vids at http://www.youtube.com/user/lightninrick
Twitter: @lightninrick
Gary Lehmann
Mar 14, 2017, 4:14:51 PM3/14/17
to Joseph Leone, Harp-l for posting, Doug Schroer
It's a great explanation!
I still am not using keyed chromatics at gigs, but will if the situation
ever requires it.
Mostly I just use altered tuned diatonics, much easier to play in the key
of the song.
Most popular music doesn't go outside the tonal center very much. Jazz is
different.
I still am not using keyed chromatics at gigs, but will if the situation
ever requires it.
Mostly I just use altered tuned diatonics, much easier to play in the key
of the song.
Most popular music doesn't go outside the tonal center very much. Jazz is
different.
Ron Burton
Mar 15, 2017, 2:01:45 PM3/15/17
to Harp-L
Having been a personal observer of Smo-Jo's playing since the last century, I can attest to his somewhat confusing, initially, and always mind blowing method of "which key do I use now" chromatic? There is a method to his madness...just ask to see his "circle of keys" chart which to this day I am still trying to reconcile. He turned a "what harp to use" question into an astro-physical equation that, as you can see below, I am still trying to wrap my harp around. Consequently, since I read, I have unfortunately, as some may lament, been forced to stay with my "C" and know that when I have a Bb...it's a draw with the stem in.. as long as my mouth is in the right place. Bottom line is...Smokey KNOWS his instrument...back and forward. Proof of which comes from the first time I heard him play. A local band was doing a light jazz jam. Long story short...band leader asked what do you want to do? His answer was how about "Song For My Father"?..Somewhat taken aback, the bandleader asked with some degree of disbelief "what key"? Smokey's answer still amazes me....."Any key you want." I rest my case.
I'm not here to pump his rep...not needed. Just saying, practice what comes best and easiest to each. KNOW and own each tune or scale. I still can't overblow but that doesn't mean I still don't try. See you in Carnegie Hall.
Ron of the 'Glades
________________________________
From: Harp-L <harp-l-...@harp-l.org> on behalf of Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:50 AM
To: fmajor7
I'm not here to pump his rep...not needed. Just saying, practice what comes best and easiest to each. KNOW and own each tune or scale. I still can't overblow but that doesn't mean I still don't try. See you in Carnegie Hall.
Ron of the 'Glades
________________________________
From: Harp-L <harp-l-...@harp-l.org> on behalf of Joseph Leone <3n...@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:50 AM
To: fmajor7
Winslow Yerxa via Harp-L
Mar 25, 2017, 12:26:07 PM3/25/17
to har...@harp-l.org
Depends on your definition of "easier" :)
People argue for and against having chromatics in different keys and advance all sorts of reasons pro and con.
I do both.
That is, I can and do play in all 12 keys on a C chromatic.
But I also use chromatics in other keys for specific reasons.
And I can read in one key and play in another. Sax players do this all the time. Someone hands them a piece of music or a chord chart written at actual pitch, and they have to take their Bb or Eb instrument and transpose in their heads so that the music doesn't come out in a different key from everyone else in the band.
On a C chromatic, every key has a different set of possibilities. Different harmonies and chords. Different things you can do with the slide related to the scale of that key. Different same-breath melodic sequences.
Maybe you want all those huge D minor-type chords in the key of A instead of the key of D. So you pick up a G chromatic. Blues harmonica players do this all the time. Here's a recording where, as part of a challenge a few years ago on Modern Blues Harmonica, I played "Consipracy Theory," something over a backing track in E that had been created from Little Walter's "Roller Coaster." I chose to use a D chromatic to play in third position in E instead of second position on a diatonic in A. And yes, I do use the slide quite a bit, mostly to access the slide-in draw split of G#-D, which outlines an E7 chord instead of the usual E minor6 chord:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/Conspiracy%20theory.mp3
A lot of fiddle music is in keys closely related to D, and I often use a D chromatic because it offers more useful chords and chord fragments.
Here's a link to a hybrid recording I made of "Hillsdale," using two different chromatics. Most of the tune is played on a D chromatic, and I use chords and splits that can only be played on a D (starting about 0:43) . But later in the tune (about 1:55), I switch to a C chromatic because the melody goes too high for the three-octave D chrom (remember, a D chromatic is a Low D, pitched nearly an octave below a C).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/03-Hillsdale.mp3
In another instance, I made a medley of folk tunes "A la claire fontaine" and "She's like the Swallow," that goes from Bb major to C# minor to E major. I used a Bb chromatic because it delivered the two-note harmonies I wanted in all three keys. Now I could have used a C harmonica and put the tunes in C, Eb minor, and F#. But I didn't want those keys, so I used a Bb. Here's a recording, with Tuula Cotter on violin and Colin Cotter on guitar:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/A%20la%20Claire%20Fontaine%2C%20She%27s%20Like%20The%20Swallow.mp3
Even Toots Thielemans used to record using different keys of chromatic. He did this for awhile in the 1950s, and usually so that he was playing in D-flat position. East of the Sun was in Ab on a G chromatic and Soul Station was in Bb on an A chromatic, among others.
Winslow
Winslow Yerxa
Producer, the Harmonica Collective
Author, Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition: ISBN 978-1-118-88076-0
Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
Instructor, Jazzschool Community Music School
President emeritus, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the Harmonica
________________________________
From: "dfw...@flash.net" <dfw...@flash.net>
To: "har...@harp-l.org" <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 5:20 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Chromatic KEY choices
People argue for and against having chromatics in different keys and advance all sorts of reasons pro and con.
I do both.
That is, I can and do play in all 12 keys on a C chromatic.
But I also use chromatics in other keys for specific reasons.
And I can read in one key and play in another. Sax players do this all the time. Someone hands them a piece of music or a chord chart written at actual pitch, and they have to take their Bb or Eb instrument and transpose in their heads so that the music doesn't come out in a different key from everyone else in the band.
On a C chromatic, every key has a different set of possibilities. Different harmonies and chords. Different things you can do with the slide related to the scale of that key. Different same-breath melodic sequences.
Maybe you want all those huge D minor-type chords in the key of A instead of the key of D. So you pick up a G chromatic. Blues harmonica players do this all the time. Here's a recording where, as part of a challenge a few years ago on Modern Blues Harmonica, I played "Consipracy Theory," something over a backing track in E that had been created from Little Walter's "Roller Coaster." I chose to use a D chromatic to play in third position in E instead of second position on a diatonic in A. And yes, I do use the slide quite a bit, mostly to access the slide-in draw split of G#-D, which outlines an E7 chord instead of the usual E minor6 chord:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/Conspiracy%20theory.mp3
A lot of fiddle music is in keys closely related to D, and I often use a D chromatic because it offers more useful chords and chord fragments.
Here's a link to a hybrid recording I made of "Hillsdale," using two different chromatics. Most of the tune is played on a D chromatic, and I use chords and splits that can only be played on a D (starting about 0:43) . But later in the tune (about 1:55), I switch to a C chromatic because the melody goes too high for the three-octave D chrom (remember, a D chromatic is a Low D, pitched nearly an octave below a C).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/03-Hillsdale.mp3
In another instance, I made a medley of folk tunes "A la claire fontaine" and "She's like the Swallow," that goes from Bb major to C# minor to E major. I used a Bb chromatic because it delivered the two-note harmonies I wanted in all three keys. Now I could have used a C harmonica and put the tunes in C, Eb minor, and F#. But I didn't want those keys, so I used a Bb. Here's a recording, with Tuula Cotter on violin and Colin Cotter on guitar:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2901194/A%20la%20Claire%20Fontaine%2C%20She%27s%20Like%20The%20Swallow.mp3
Even Toots Thielemans used to record using different keys of chromatic. He did this for awhile in the 1950s, and usually so that he was playing in D-flat position. East of the Sun was in Ab on a G chromatic and Soul Station was in Bb on an A chromatic, among others.
Winslow
Winslow Yerxa
Producer, the Harmonica Collective
Author, Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition: ISBN 978-1-118-88076-0
Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
Instructor, Jazzschool Community Music School
President emeritus, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the Harmonica
________________________________
From: "dfw...@flash.net" <dfw...@flash.net>
To: "har...@harp-l.org" <har...@harp-l.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 5:20 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Chromatic KEY choices
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