Ideas for grant application

[Tom Servaes]

While you're hoping for great tools on Christmas morning, please remember we're collecting a wishlist for the makerspace.

Personally, I've always wanted a pantorouter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6clpdY52VZM

Your turn.

Tom

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Tom Servaes

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[Marcel Boudreau]

Holy crap. I didn't even know such a tool existed. I might even be more impressed on the length of the actual router bit it's using.

[Chris McDonald]

I've got the 1960's era milling machine version of that. I have it locked down to use as a conventional mill. The pantograph is crazy complex to set up. It is what they used to produce complex parts and molds before there were CNC machines.  

http://www.annunciindustriali.it/oc-content/uploads/149/44274.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kisxs26wR4I

I picked it up for something like $800 with a full set of accessories. It was 550v 3phase and the motors were seized. I've replaced the motors and wiring and now its working great. The ways are like new on the machine. It was barely used at NRC and then sat in a guys basement for 20 years, then in the guy I bought it from basement for another 10 years.

I've also recently picked up a 1943 Monarch 16CY metal lathe for $800. It's a massive old beast. Everything works on it, it was just really dirty when I got it. This one was already converted to single phase. Eventually I will need to rework the cross slide ways, they are in rough condition. But everything else has cleaned up really good. 

There are deals to be found on old machines if your patient. If the machine has survived to this age it's generally a great indestructible machine. 

Accessories are the tough part to find and usually cost as much as the machines. A dividing head for example can sell used for $800 or more. A good vise is a few hundred. A lathe chuck can sell for $1000 or more. A quick change tool post set is like $500. 

Some stuff is just unobtainium. Collets for the deckle are very rare. I was lucky to get a full set with lots of duplicates with the machine. I've been considering selling some off to get cash to buy a decent vise. But what you can't buy you can make with these machines. It takes lots of time and good metal stock isn't cheap. But just about anything can be made.

Some people collect old cars, or baseball cards, I seem to have an obsession with old machines and tools.

Chris 

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[Shawn Wilson]

I always wondered how much time he spent setting that thing up for a couple joints, vs. some other method.  I often won't bother setting up a dado stack.  He recently did a video where he made dozens and dozens of wood blocks for a diy marble track set, though, where it would seem to be very useful.

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[Marcel Boudreau]

Here's my short list of suggestions of items for the Space that we could/should consider for a grant application:

- Proper rails, ripping fence, mitre gauge and MagSwitch Universal Featherboard (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=58746&cat=1,240,45884) for the Table Saw

- Thickness planer (woodworking)

- Edge Jointer (woodworking)

- Full blown air exchanger / paint booth

- CNC machine (perhaps Makerspace built) that'll handle 4'x4' or even 4'x8' sheets of plywood

- Industrial sewing machine with walking foot

- Air brad/staple driver

- Hobbyist bench top milling machine

- An articulated bench top vice

- Heavy duty paper cutter (something like this http://middlegraphics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82&search=paper+cutter)

- Plumbing compressed air into each of the rooms, or at least into the woodshed and the Laser Cutter room

- Plumbing the kitchenette sink to work

- Portable welding kit (we'd probably have to use it outdoors in the parking lot)

I'm sure I can think of other items to add to the Space.

[Shawn Wilson]

I donated a brad nailer.  It's hanging on the pegboard with my hose that's on loan until I get a new compressor at home.  There are some brads with the nails and screws on the mobile rack.  You still have to wheel the compressor in until we get it plumbed, though. :)

[Shawn Wilson]

So, I think the ideas we have for the grant application (due end of March) would be the following.  Whatever we choose to try for should be: under $5000, but should be fairly expensive (groups of inexpensive items don't get chosen), can't be a leasehold improvement (no upgrading the building), and can't go to a salary.  A lot of the things on this list are likely too cheap to be considered, but I am including them for completeness.  I would be interested in knowing what members or non-members would want us to try to get (what would make the space more appealing to you), as well as what you think we should get to make the space more useful in general (like if you think a 3D scanner would bring in members and let us serve HRM makers, even if you would never use it).  And if you have suggestions on specific models, or can give reasons or caveats, so much the better.  If you want to help write the grant, let us know, but you don't need to be willing to write it to offer opinions, so don't be shy.

• New oscilloscope(s)

• FormLabs 3D printer (resin)
  

• Jointer, planer or lathe

• Laptops for classes

• Proper rails, ripping fence

• Thickness planer (woodworking)

• Edge Jointer (woodworking)

• Full blown air exchanger / paint booth

• CNC machine (perhaps Makerspace built) that'll handle 4'x4' or even 4'x8' sheets of plywood

• Industrial sewing machine with walking foot

• Hobbyist bench top milling machine

• An articulated bench top vice

• Heavy duty paper cutter

• Plumbing compressed air into each of the rooms

• Portable welding kit

• kiln

• embroidery machine

• sawstop table saw

Here is the list again with some of my thoughts.  Please correct me if I am wrong about anything:

• New oscilloscope(s) - Price is in the sweet spot for the grant. We have 2 very old ones, and the third doesn't have a lot of features.  Useful. Would be useful to a lot of existing members.
  
• FormLabs 3D printer (resin) - Price is in the sweet spot.  Expensive to run.
• lathe -  A wood lathe with good tools and accessories might be in the sweet spot.  Useful to existing members, and possibly to potential members (maybe a wood lathe isn't something a lot of people have at home).  Might take up significant room in the wood shop, but I think we could make it work.
  
• Laptops for classes - If considered as a group, this would be priced in the sweet spot.  Useful to existing members (a number of members use our laptops), and to bring in revenue through classes (Arduino, anything laser or cnc cut).  Our existing laptops are starting to cost us a lot of time, as they aren't really sufficient for current versions of Windows.  Also, the value of them to the overall community is much more clear to the people holding the grant purse strings: offering community education opportunities.
• Proper rails, ripping fence.  ??
• Thickness planer (woodworking)  / Edge Jointer (woodworking) - might be priced too low.
• Full blown air exchanger / paint booth - useful, but might fall under leasehold improvements.
  
• CNC machine (perhaps Makerspace built) that'll handle 4'x4' or even 4'x8' sheets of plywood (we may have a line on this regardless of grant)
• Industrial sewing machine with walking foot - priced in sweet spot. Might attract members outside of our current core?
  
• Hobbyist bench top milling machine - priced in sweet spot
• An articulated bench top vice - probably priced too low.
• Heavy duty paper cutter - probably priced too low
• Plumbing compressed air into each of the rooms - leasehold improvement?  Probably priced too low.  May not be necessary once dedicated small compressor for laser comes in.
  
• Portable welding kit - no place to use it.
• kiln - probably priced too low.
• embroidery machine  - priced in sweet spot.  Might attract members outside of our current core. Perhaps not too versatile?
• sawstop table saw - priced in sweet spot. Might be expensive to run (cartridges are about $100).  Maybe not a large improvement over what we have?
  

And another option might be to propose a "kit" of lesser priced things.  Maybe something like kiln/embroidery machine/Silhouette (vinyl cutter)/heat press (for applying vinyl) as a crafting area?  I'm not sure if this would be viewed as a shopping cart of small things, or as a single thing.  I suspect the former.

We need people to lay their markers down!  So I will say that I am leaning towards laptops, followed by a crafting section as my second. 

On Friday, December 22, 2017 at 9:12:46 AM UTC-4, Tom Servaes wrote:

[Téa Chen]

TLDR; My order of preference – Kiln, manual milling machine, CNC, industrial sewing machine, computers

 

My general thoughts…

 

SawStop:

 

Since I’m the one who proposed the SawStop, it’s odd that I’ll argue against it – or at least I’d argue for a deferment until later years (we could even try sponsorship deals).  For those like me who feel unsafe with the current TS, there are ways to avoid it in woodworking.  A bandsaw-centric workshop might be in order if there’s interest.  I’m also looking at what’s required to at least get a splitter on that Beaver TS for the interim.

 

 

Thicknesser Planer:

 

A router sled can do the job albeit inefficiently.  I’ll probably end up building one and leaving it at the space later this year.  If we can get our hands on a ½ collet router, there are enough cheap sizable bottom clearing bits to make this go faster.

 

 

Jointer:

 

Router sled does the job of a jointer for faces.  Edge jointing can be done if we can shim the router table fence.  Might need a custom fence.

 

 

CNC:

 

I have to ask what sort of accuracy do we desire at 4x8?  Also, what’s the feasibility of actually dragging a full sheet into the ever-crowded space?  I only have one project that needs a high-accuracy 4x8.  Day to day use I’d be hesitant to throw good quality materials at anything less than 20k. 

 

For the 5k grant, I’d suggest getting pairing something ‘easy’ to use like the Carvey and then a Shapeoko XXL.  Carvey for workshops to get people interested in CNCs (or small quick projects), while the Shapeoko for the larger stuff.  This is a moot point anyways if something is lined up.

 

 

Kiln:

 

Ferretbelly’s other thread provided a list of kilns.  I would suggest we get two kilns as a package – one ceramic and another for glass to cover the gamut of things people might be interested in.  Also go with the electronic programmable ones which do up the cost a tiny bit more toward 5k in total.

 

 

Vinyl and Crafting stations:

 

I like the idea of reaching out to people outside the current wood/electronic fabtech.  However, given the low price point and compactness, silhouette users are already likely to have it already at home.  Those that don’t already have one might find the membership dues not worth it.  Honestly, it would be more a purchase for those of us who currently focus on the other high-price items to dabble in vinyl.  Unless you can figure out projects or workshops to cross-pollenate crafters into wanting to use the space/other equipment, I’d defer.  I’d rather just set up a Silhouette tip-jar for current members to contribute.  P.S. a crafting area can get pretty consumables heavy.  A bring-your-own-supplies craft area is less a draw than it seems.

 

 

Laptops:

 

Would it make more sense to expand the space’s equipment list first?  The Arduino classes seem to be geared towards generating potential membership leads – but there doesn’t seem to be a hook.  Regardless, I’d vote for desktops instead of laptops for the attached computers on the laser, cnc, etc. to delay their eventual obsolescence.  Laptops age too quickly and unless there’s a clear plan to quickly leverage their working life into membership conversions I’d wait until next year when the space/workshops stabilizes before wanting a fleet of laptops for a computer lab.  I’d also be wary of over-reliance on computer-related outreach.

I've been kinda out of the loop for the winter so apologies if I'm not up to speed on the direction the makerspace is heading over the next year.

[Chris McDonald]

Hey Guys, 

Some food for thought on milling machines and CNC routers.

Small new milling machines are not worth the money. Older used machines are orders of magnitude better. I just bought my 3rd milling machine and I'm on my second metal lathe. I haven't spent more than $800 on any of the machines. At the centre, I have a new $3000 mill and its junk compared to old iron. The big old iron are just so much better than the new machines. To get a lathe comparable to my monarch lathe today would be something like $100,000 and it likely wouldn't last nearly as long. It's too easy to break the small machines and if the old machines survived to today they are typically indestructible. The downside to old iron is that they are very heavy and somewhat difficult to move.  Most are 3 phase and often require 575 volt power. I've replaced the motors in my machines with single phase 240v motors. I've used tilt load to move my machines to the property and we have heavy equipment to move the machines around with (wheel loader). They also take quite a bit of work to disassemble, clean and lubricate.  But so do the new machines. 

Many companies sell off there old machines for a song. It's getting tougher to compete with CNC these days. In the past the setup time and programming time to do a CNC job was significant. But with the newer software like fusion 360, you can program a job nearly as fast as you can draw it on paper. Many shops still run manual machines for repair work but even those are going CNC these days. New managers come in and they see a 50 year old machine and just assume it junk. These machines were built to last forever. Most machines can be rebuilt back to new or better than new specs(modern bearing and way materials). It just takes lots of man hours to do the rebuild. There are a number of videos on youtube about machine rebuilding. 

The 3 phase 575v is often a turn off that drives the prices down, but it really isn't all that difficult to change a motor and rewire the machine for single phase. If the machine is 3phase 208v, VFD and phase converters are options.   

I'm always watching kijiji for machines and trading up to better machines for myself. At some point I may have a machine to donate to the makerspace. My current milling machine might be a good fit but I'm not ready to let go of it yet. It's Deckle KF12. It's foot print is relativity small as its main table only travels 8"x12". Its a copy machine so it has two tables and a crazy set of arms for enlarging or shrinking.  I've changed the spindle motor to a 1.5HP 120v motor. So it can run off a regular wall plug. I just bought a much bigger mill that might replace it but its going to take a while to get that one up and running. 

CNC routers take up a ton of space. To cut a 4x8 sheet the machine will need over 100sqft of shop space. The foot print of our machine at the discovery centre is like 11'x7' plus room to walk around the machine. So its more like a 12'x12' box that gets tied up by the machine. 

Accuracy is not difficult to obtain but rigidity, speed and reliability come at a cost. Rigidity, or lack there of will show in your surface finishes. If the machine isn't stiff enough the cutter will shake and bounce along the surface being cut. Going slower doesn't solve this as then the tool starts to rub and burn the surface(and destroy the tool).  To get rigidity you need a big heavy and well structured table. The gantry needs to be nice and stiff too while not being too heavy. Speed comes down to power, you need nice big stepper motors and a powerful spindle.   

The critical mechanical and electronic components for a 4'x8' router might fall under $5000. But the structural steel and welding will likely cost another $5000. Then there is work holding. We spent about $5000 on the vacuum pump alone.  

A 24"x36" build might be a better fit with a $5000 budget. I'd skip the shapeoko style kits and go for a steel frame, linear slides and ballscrews.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HBH25-1500-HB20-400-Square-Linear-guide-sets-2-x-SFU2010-450-1000-1000mm-Ballscrew-sets/32839785250.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.78.7cbe23b22oRSD3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10152_10151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10547_10342_10343_10340_10548_10341_10084_10083_10618_10139_10307_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_38,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=4bc20d3b-36ad-416c-99c7-5fd2b634f95f-11&algo_pvid=4bc20d3b-36ad-416c-99c7-5fd2b634f95f&transAbTest=ae803_3&priceBeautifyAB=0 

That might not quite get you to a full 24"x36" as you must subtract the length of the carriages from the rails to get your actual travel. 

Motors and drive electronics would be $1000. 

Steel for the frame and stuff might be another $1000

That leaves $2000 for spindle, tooling and work holding. 

Not a great candidate for the grant. But maybe something that could be crowdfunded over time.

I would kick in some cash and host the build here at my shop. My new big mill would be very useful in building something like this and I have access to welders and a plasma cutter in my shop here in Porters Lake. 

On another topic. I might have some laptops to donate. I'll inquire today. They are older machines with 32bit(Core 2 duo T2300 @ 1.66Ghz) processors which limits them a bit. They have windows 7 installed on them. I was using them for Brainwar but we have changed the way we run brainwar and don't need as many anymore. They currently only have 1GB of ram in them in two 512MB sticks. Some have no ram, I combined the ram from any that have 1GB sticks in them so I have 2GB in the ones I'm keeping. We have around 30 of them and I'd like to keep around 15. RAM can be purchased on aliexpress for like $15 for two 2GB sticks(PC2-5300 or 6400). 

I wish I could be more involved with the Makerspace. The location is on the wrong end of the city for me. The last year has been crazy at work with the opening of the new building and that has drained me. Things are only starting to settle down there now. I also now have two amazing shops to work in. One at the Discovery Centre and one here in my in-law's garage at home where I have my big machines. I never seem to have enough time to spend in either of the shops.  

Chris McDonald

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[Shawn Wilson]

Téa, looking at ferretbelly's linked chart, it seems the Caldera will do everything but glass plates for some reason.  I don't understand most of what's in the chart though, or why a specific kiln would do something another wouldn't.  I understand temperature, but not what other features allow them to do one thing but not another.  Which two kilns would you try for?  

Thumbs up for router sled! 

Router table fence is in two parts, so I think we can do that?

I have a homebrew jointer, but I think it's likely too big for the shop.  If that's a desperate need for anyone let me know and I will see if I can figure out a way to tuck it away in the shop.  I have a thickness planer I bought a year ago that l can likely leave at the space indefinitely.  Not quite ready to donate it, but if it dies there, I am okay with it.

I am not sure what we want in a CNC.  We have a small one that somebody needs to figure out how to use.  I am picking away at learning fusion 360 for this purpose.  I was going to CNC some pucks to vacuum form molds for a seed bomb workshop, but then realized I could 3D print them easier.  Adam printed one for me.  Will print the next two on Sunday open house, and maybe vacuum form them if it's not too busy.  The other CNC we are considering is the Maslow.  A member bought the parts already, but we are just kicking around whether we have the space to do it at the Makerspace or at his house.  I suspect it wouldn't be super accurate compared to horizontal cncs, but I am sure it'd still have applications.

Good points on the laptops' lifespan.  We are going to try to make a go of classes, and a lot of the stuff that attracts people to us is the computerized stuff (Arduino, CNC, laser, PCB design in Eagle or whatever, ). And electronics (for which you generally need a computer to google data sheets, etc).  I think computerized stuff might be our best bet, generally, as we don't have a lot of space and duplication of tools to compete with Patch for sewing, Hands On for woodwork, the screenprinting place for screen printing, Clay Cafe for pottery, etc.  That said, if we can get by on old laptops, I am okay with that.  CNC has its own desktop with 32 bit windows.  The Windows updates are the killers on the old laptops.  If we could keep 2 or 3 windows laptops around to run laser software (to run laser, and to let people test their designs in the laser software without tying up the laser), we could likely move to Linux for the rest.  Most of the software we use, I think, has Linux versions.

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[Shawn Wilson]

Oh, and any idea  what other tools/area would be required for kilns per Tom's post?  Safety gear, washing up stuff?

[Shawn Wilson]

Thanks, Chris. That's a lot to digest on milling machines.  I mentioned some stuff on the cncs in my response to Téa.  Space is at a premium right now, especially in the woodshop.  I suspect that might be one of the biggest factors in the decision making.

Thanks for checking on the laptops.  And no worries about not being hands on involved. I'm glad you can stay involved on the GG, and you can always become more hands on again when we grow to dwarf your home shop and the DC shop. 😀

[Téa Chen]

Shawn,

Total newbie here too, but from my cursory understanding, the glass-kiln differs from a tabletop-ceramic kiln in that the heating element is all from above.  The ceramic kiln has elements on the side.  Thus, glass plates (like those sold in NS gift shops) can be made without cracking - although I hear you can get away with it in a ceramic if you go slow enough.

The two ferretbelly picked out (Caldera/Firefly) were the only ones able to get hot enough for porcelain and stoneware.  

As an aside, people do seem interested in combining 3D printing with lost wax.  The Caldera/Firefly are not listed for lost-wax casting, but I've seen the Firefly used for smallish things.  The SC3 in comparison has a top-vent.  There's a boatload of other equipment needed, namely vacuum casting machine, investment powder, UV safety glasses, gloves, tongs, flasks, and a questionable way of melting metals (torch or electric).  Gesswein has a package that pretty much consumes the entire $5k+: http://www.gessweincanada.com/product-p/265-1164.htm

Other things not listed there would have been a fire-safe worktable, water for quenching, weight scale, and UV safety glasses.

Neither ferretbelly personally have a preference - we just thought a kiln might be an attraction.  If porcelain and stoneware were the only things not available at the makerspace, Yu-yo cafe fires things for a small fee.

On that note, we ended up talking with Patch Halifax.  An industrial sewing machine is not in their future.  It's one of those things that isn't part of their workshop demographic although she thought it'd be nice to have accessible in HRM.  She gave a couple suggestions on where we might find one.

[Shawn Wilson]

Thanks, that clears things up a bit.  

[Bill Morrow]

I was away for a couple of weeks. What did we end up applying for, if anything?

[Adam Cox]

Yep, we got our application submitted and applied for a Prusa i3 MK3 3D printer with the Multi Material Upgrade (MMU) as well as a desktop computer. The new printer will offer larger print sizes, be more reliable, and the MMU functionality will allow interesting stuff like multi-colour printing, and printing with dissolvable support materials. Given the age of the laptops we have at the space a desktop will be a good upgrade. We applied for one with a discrete video card so that we will have a station that can handle some decent CAD modelling or video editing. The desktop will replace the laptop next to the laser cutter so we will have a reliable computer for both the 3d printer and the laser cutter.

It can take a few months for the grant applications to be processed. I checked the timing of when we received notice the year we got funding for the laser cutter and it was late-June.

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 3:54 PM Bill Morrow <morr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was away for a couple of weeks. What did we end up applying for, if anything?

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[Bill Morrow]

Nice! I will keep my fingers crossed.