Re: [HackerspaceSG] Getty Images Demand Letter

[Martin Bähr]

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 09:53:20PM -0700, ongkybeta wrote:
> I had carefully picked my images from free sites, and made sure they
> had no copyright info etc.

not having copyright info does not mean that there is no copyright. on
the contrary, according to the berne convention, everything has a
copyright, and by default that means there is no right to use (other
than fair use for quoting, etc)

singapore signed the berne convention, so this applies here.
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/notifications/berne/treaty_berne_198.html

exceptions to the copyright must be stated explicitly, so unless an
image or text explicitly contains a permission for using it, then it may
not be used.

if someone claims that you violated their copyright, they must show that
they own the copyright and you must show that you have been given
permission.

greetings, martin.
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[Justin Hammond]

 

Hi,

 

Firstly, IANAL...

 

I also got a Demand Letter from Getty for a image that was part of a Open Source Mail Administration Utility (vpopmail!)

 

I ignored the letter, and despite a few reminders, they eventually stopped sending them.

 

Looking around the internet shows that despite sending these letters to thousands of people around the world, they have not prosecuted anyone. They just send demands for absurd amounts of money in the hope and expectation (clearly correct) that a small proportion will get frightened and pay up.

 

It seems that calling them, writing to them, or contacting them in any way is a bad move, because it shows them you are taking it seriously. The best bet seems to be to ignore it completely, tell them you don’t know what they are talking about if they call, and make it totally clear that you have no intention of paying their extortion.

You will also find a few postings around the web from people saying that Getty will definitely sue, that you don’t have a leg to stand on etc. These tend to have a similar style and appear to be written by Getty employees in order to put the frighteners on people.

So don’t worry, stay firm, and they will leave you alone in the end.

 

-----Original message-----
To: HackerspaceSG <hacker...@googlegroups.com>;
From: ongkybeta <ongk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu 05-05-2011 13:07
Subject: [HackerspaceSG] Getty Images Demand Letter
Hello hackerspacesg.

I've recently received a demand letter from gettyimages demanding
payment of SGD2K+ for the use on 1 image on my site 2 years ago, which
I was totally unaware was from gettyimages. It was a thumbnailed
version of an image which they claim to be from their database. I had

carefully picked my images from free sites, and made sure they had no

copyright info etc. Specifically, I had never visited gettyimages to
obtain ANY images whatsoever.

Alas, even though the image was removed and there was no warning
letter, they still slam me with a scary, intimidating letter which I
have been really stressed about recently. You can read more here.
http://extortionletterinfo.com/. I received the same letter as those
people.

I have actually replied once to gettyimages (APAC) http://bit.ly/j56LYO
denying intent, and that the images have been removed a while back.
However, they replied and still wanted to claim that 2K+ damages from
me. I kind of regret replying so quickly, and now would like to take a
more careful approach. The cost of getting a license for that photo
would be around what, 50 USD? Extortion is the word I'd like to use
here.

Anyone familiar with Singapore's IP and copyright laws?  My company is
registered in Singapore, but the domain is a .com. I am actually
considering consulting a lawyer who is familiar with this, to see my
next course of action. Any idea how much the lawyer fees would cost,
say for a consult? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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[Meng Weng Wong]

good lord man, the first thing a lawyer will tell you is not to make admissions like that in writing!

On May 5, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Ong Kiong Hieng wrote:

> Thanks for the info Martin.
>
> I do not deny that the infringement. Definitely after this incident, I will be more careful in usage of images.
>

[zan]

this sounds like a viable startup idea already. an image search engine that checks if your image is copyrighted. there're image search engines around, but none so specific as to guarantee that its not copyrighted(i think).

[Senthil Kumaran]

On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 05:34:09AM -0700, ongkybeta wrote:
> know I did. This has prompted me to do extensive research in this
> area, which might come in handy some day, when there are bigger
> stakes.

It is murkey waters! Not interesting for many people.
Anyways if you are interested, good luck with your pursuance.

--
Senthil

Halley's Comet: It came, we saw, we drank.

[Meng Weng Wong]

On May 5, 2011, at 8:57 PM, zan wrote:

this sounds like a viable startup idea already. an image search engine that checks if your image is copyrighted. there're image search engines around, but none so specific as to guarantee that its not copyrighted(i think).

this sounds like the right kind of hard problem -- not so hard it is impossible, but hard enough to cut down on the number of competitors.

the fundamental challenge, as Carl Sagan pointed out ages ago, is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ...

that's funny because it makes me think the copyright trolls must have done their version of the Drake equation for copyright infringement, heh.

in related news,

http://boingboing.net/2011/04/17/righthaven-copyright.html

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/02/25/40000-p2p-lawsuits-d.html

[Senthil Kumaran]

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 10:12:58AM +0800, Meng Weng Wong wrote:
> the fundamental challenge, as Carl Sagan pointed out ages ago, is that absence
> of evidence is not evidence of absence ...
>
> that's funny because it makes me think the copyright trolls must have done
> their version of the Drake equation for copyright infringement, heh.

Wow. You hit many targets in a single stone. :)

--
Senthil

You can do more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word.
-- Al Capone

[RST - Rick Sheridan]

IANAL also, but I'm with the posture that Justin Hammond's puts forth
100%. I think awareness (esp. my own!) needs to increase of the
yawning chasm between the totality of a jurisdiction's legal code on
the one hand, and efficient+ reasonable, judiciously-applied
enforcement on the other. Rather than representing some kind of
subversive view, it's simply bread-and-butter legal strategy employed
by law firms and corporate legal teams every day (something I was
compelled to pay attention to ever since I originally began
considering doing anything in business ). Moreover, an evidently
burgeoning profit-seeking private enforcement industry lies somewhere
in between, but is necessarily subject to the imperatives of efficient
business execution, hence the value of Justin's advice.

Rick

[Patrick Haller]

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 10:12:58AM +0800, Meng Weng Wong wrote:
>

> this sounds like the right kind of hard problem -- not so hard it is
> impossible, but hard enough to cut down on the number of competitors.
>
> the fundamental challenge, as Carl Sagan pointed out ages ago, is that
> absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ...
>
> that's funny because it makes me think the copyright trolls must have
> done their version of the Drake equation for copyright infringement,

and then used something like the Fight Club recall inequality to
determine who to sue. ;)

it seems that Intellectual Ventures has optioned Digimarc's IP that
protects Getty Images

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1438231/000119312511054776/d10k.htm

Patrick

[Meng Weng Wong]

On May 6, 2011, at 10:56 AM, RST - Rick Sheridan wrote:

> IANAL also, but I'm with the posture that Justin Hammond's puts forth
> 100%. I think awareness (esp. my own!) needs to increase of the
> yawning chasm between the totality of a jurisdiction's legal code on
> the one hand, and efficient+ reasonable, judiciously-applied
> enforcement on the other.

The exact same thoughts go through my mind every time I jaywalk ...

[Jason Lee]

Hi Guys,

I have just received the same letter and would advise any help to me. This time the letter was sent to us through a local rogue lawyer company.

Upon nego, they are willing to lower the price to 1k from the original price of 2k,  however it is still super unreasonable.

Should i get a lawyer in view of this 1k, will it be cheaper or should i just ignore?

Any help appreciated.

[Mohan Belani]

Let me guess. Is this guys name Arthur?

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[Mats Engstrom]

Apparently it's important to both look at the exit data as well as doing a reverse image search when using free images so you can claim that you've done your due diligence.

Saying I "didn't intend" to use their images probably won't cut it.

But not as ridiculous as the people on YouTube that uploads complete movies of episodes that think they can get off scotfree by saying "This is not my movie, I claim no rights to it and no infringement of Ip rights intended."   Meh?

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[Jason Lee]

Hi Mr Mohan,

Yes, It is under Yeo peh & Leong LLC. Hope you could help small businesses like us with your influential media site.

Thanks so much.

Jason 

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[Mohan Belani]

We've been a victim of this too. Getty is on a rampage lately. What they usually do is to get you to sign up for one of their accounts premium accounts and they will waive off the fees. 

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Mohan Belani

+65 9003 9915

Pardon the short replies as this email is sent from my iPhone

[Jason Lee]

Hi Mohan,

May I know If you are receive the same letter from the same lawyer firm?

Thanks!

[Mohan Belani]

Different. We got it from Getty directly. 

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Mohan Belani

+65 9003 9915

Pardon the short replies as this email is sent from my iPhone

[Jason Lee]

Did you know anybody else whom receive the same letter from lawyer firm?

Also have you resolve the issue with them already?

[Stefan van der Bijl]

Letters like this are sent by lawyers doing a fishing expedition for people like you, who are easily intimidated by a scary sounding legal letter. They probably send a thousand letters a week and get 100 people to pay. That's $200K/week. Casting a net and see what they catch. Litigating this represents a lot more than $2K in opportunity costs for them. Why would they go after you for just one image for peanuts? I would copy and disseminate their threatening letter on every social media and ask for opinion. Write the Straits Times. Do everyone a service and raise awareness of these legal trolls.

That said, where did you get the image from? You're kind of vague. How did you use the image? Did you profit from it? Can we see it on the Getty site? Was it non-Getty first then was possibly purchased by Getty? How do they know you used it? What is their proof (moot point now since you essentially admitted?). If you plead no harm and ignorance, and complied by removing the image, one would assume a jury of peers would side with you (but as someone else wisely commented ignorance of the law is no excuse, and I'm not sure about the legal system in Singapore). What's the trolls' success rate been? Also, once burned, twice shy, maybe next time, simply pay $50 to haev peace of mind!

Finally, I am not a lawyer, and these are my uneducated opinions. If you are really worried, hit up a friend with expertise in this domain.

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[Mohan Belani]

This is how it happened to us. Different people may have different experiences.

The Getty representative approached us with a "partnership" opportunity at first. Following that, they slammed us with a violation of using some of their images, despite us saying that we did not. There were no legal documents sent, just threats. They were willing to waive and/or significantly reduce fees if we signed up for a premium account.

Based on what I've read online, there's little value in fighting the case, especially if you're a small company. They have an army of legal people doing this on a daily basis. You can fight it and there might be a chance you'll win but it isn't worth the legal fees you will incur.

-- 

Best Regards,

Mohan Belani

+65 9003 9915

LinkedIn: http://sg.linkedin.com/in/mohanbelani | Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/mohanbelani | Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/mohanbelani

[Harish Pillay]

Just as a FYI, the Internet Society Singapore Chapter (isoc.sg) ran a
workshop on
the issues around copyright etc specifically with the movie "Dallas Buyers Club"
issue.

The proceedings of the workshop is online
(http://isoc.sg/new-workshop-copyright-end-user-infringement-a-view-from-both-sides-of-the-fence/)
and would suggest that you spend some time watching it.

tl;dw: offer $50 and be done with it.

Harish

[Kai Hendry]

On Mon, 9 Nov 2015, at 01:38 PM, Harish Pillay wrote:
> tl;dw: offer $50 and be done with it.

Giving them a single cent would legitimize their immoral business
practice.

Remove their image and be done with it.

[Jolyon P Caplin]

Message Classification: Restricted


Very interesting video. Thanks.

I was responsible for Data Protection with the Institution of Engineering and Technology. Many parallels there...

Best regards,

Jolyon Caplin
SENIOR LECTURER



DID 6772 1436 | MOBILE 90038420 | OFFICE 6772 1815 | FAX 6772 1974 | 500 Dover Road Singapore 139651 |
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[Harish Pillay]

While I agree that not paying these chaps is the best thing, for the time
and hassle a token might help. These chap are no different from the one
that is pulling the stunt with the movie downloads. Some of those accused
have offered a token (cost of what it would be to watch it in the theatre +
cost of popcorn + some goodwill = $50). I am not sure, however, if it has
been accepted.

FTR, I did file a complaint against the law firm that sent out the letters
about the movie and the complaint was filed with the Law Society.
The Law Soc has done their investigations and I am awaiting a reply.

Harish

[theafri...@gmail.com]

Hello! Glad to have found you guys here! I thought I was the only one being victimised and persecuted!

I got the same gazillion-word-long small-font-sized demand letter from the same ambulance-chasers turned debt collectors and now, extortionists. 

I was extremely suspicious and I'm still wondering if what they are doing is legal, especially since that image was no longer even on my website as I've been changing my webpages on a weekly basis since last December (I'm not web-designer - I'm a dinosaur learning how to use Dreamweaver!)

I replied explaining that the 160 x 100 px thumbnail was not copyrighted. They replied with what I suspect is a 3-paragraph 'standard response' template parroting the demand letter. 

Having had nothing better to do, I replied again to their ridiculous assertion that Getty is committed to protecting copyright (ie, their rice bowl): If Getty is genuinely committed to protecting its imagery from unauthorised use, then the material should have been copyright-protected from the onset, and not have been allowed to be distributed all over the internet for use without copyright notices by innocent users like myself, and be consequently ambushed by Getty to extort an exorbitant sum of money.

Guess what? They replied with another 3-paragraph standard response template and for my 'convenience' they 'kindly' attached a 30-page long Copyright Infopack, referring me to https://www.ipos.gov.sg/.

So now, I'm knee-deep in the Copyright Act Chapter 63 Part X Clause 200: Groundless Threats of Legal Prosecution, where a person, by means of circulars, advertisements or otherwise, threatens a person with an action or proceeding in respect of an infringement of copyright, then, whether the person making the threats is or is not the owner of the copyright or an exclusive licensee, a person aggrieved may bring an action against the first-mentioned person and may.... unless... 

Is there a doctor in the house? I think I'm having a brain-attack! 

I'm a Catholic who used to believe that we are all children of God, but now, come to think of it, in the bible, after Cain killed his brother Abel, Cain must have spawned an entire population of demons! So if anyone has a feasible plan to slay the devils, please share! 

Meanwhile, I'll be praying Psalm 109:6 - Appoint someone evil to oppose my enemy; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. 

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[Gideon Simons]

Sue them under the spam protection law! :)

https://www.ida.gov.sg/Learning/Technology-You/Unsolicited-Communications

Gideon

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[Robert Sim]

There is a similar discussion thread on WordPress Singapore's Facebook group as well: https://www.facebook.com/groups/wpug.sg/permalink/1199471633399980/

A couple of members have also said that they have been hit by the letters from Getty.

Regards,

Robert

[Jason Lee]

That was a great thread. I gotten in touch with the thread starter though, and I didnt realise IPOS offered free legal advice for such things.

But anyway for those that received the letter, please do not pay right away. 

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[Mike Weibel]

Curious to know if Getty has actually prosecuted anyone, and if so what the particulars were (how many images involved, what the amount of the lawsuite was, etc)

Thanks!

[Kai Hendry]

Oh the FUD keeps coming...

On Mon, 23 Nov 2015, at 08:56 AM, Mike Weibel wrote:
> Curious to know if Getty has actually prosecuted anyone, and if so what
> the
> particulars were (how many images involved, what the amount of the
> lawsuite
> was, etc)

I'm curious to know if anyone here has fallen for a 419 scam or
something similar? http://scamalert.sg/ You should be publicly shamed!
That's how I see your request.

If you are dumb enough to use a copyrighted image on your site (clue:
use https://www.google.com/imghp), take it down and optionally say
sorry.

[LK]

Hi Jason 

So did you have a resolution already?? I also just got the demand letter :( 

I'm going to call up IPOS too...  

[Heather Ho]

Hi,

I just got a letter too. IPOS IP Clinic is undergoing some changes and won't be able asset until April or May.

Whats the best course of action?

I called up IPOS and was advised to ask for extension ion payment deadline or seek help from local IP lawyers via www.legal500.com.

Hope to hear from you guys.

Heather  

[Stefan van der Bijl]

This whole thing reeks of a ridiculous, epic-scale shakedown, like the Dallas Buyers Club recently. Don't pay now, pursuing you will cost them a lot more. Ignore, stall. They're fishing. Make a big deal about it socially, have their effort backfire on them, potential clients will go elsewhere for images.

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[LK]

Heather, you can also get free legal advice from here: http://probono.lawsociety.org.sg/Pages/Help-for-Public.aspx   

[Shen Heng]

Hi

My friend, Mike, pointed me here as I experienced the same thing.

My case is slightly different and I did purchase the image almost 7 years ago from iStockPhoto, and apparently when iStock was acquired by Getty, the royalty free clause expired and became a rights-managed clause.

I've also heard of other creative counterparts getting similar "threats".

After speaking with the Getty rep, she offered 2 resolutions. They calculated fees based on when the image license expired till the day they sent the notice to me.

1. Pay the amount or they will escalate to their legal, once that happens, it will cost more. If you lose the case I assume.

2. Pay the amount and have part of it converted to Getty credits because they "value my business".

I went for option 1, and negotiated a discount that I could swallow.

Was it fair? Nope. But I'd rather settle this, than for it to keep me awake at night.

And for sure, I will never ever use Getty again, nor recommend them to anyone else.

Point 2 - I guess this is how they grow revenue...

[Heather Ho]

Thank you LK

[Anandh G]

Hi Jason Lee

Have you settled with this issue with Yeo peh.... ? What was the outcome and how you got rid of this ?

Regards

Anandh G

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[Jeff Ng]

Hi Coreen,

Have you resolved the issue? I also just got the letter, totalling over $5K for a website that is not in use for over a year now.

Regards,

Jeff

[Jeff Ng]

Hi Anandh and Jason,

I also received a letter from Yeo Peh, 3 images that for a website that is no longer in use, totalling over $5K. Ridiculous.

How are you guys approaching this issue to settle it? 

Regards,

Jeff

[Jeff Ng]

Hi Heather,

Jeff here and I also just got a letter. You received yours in March, might I ask how u have resolved your issue so far?

Greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Jeff

[defini...@gmail.com]

Hi all,

I received a letter too... :( I am trying to find a way out of it. Any advice would be gr8? 2k+ claim...... 

[Meng Weng Wong]

http://boingboing.net/2016/07/27/photographer-sues-getty-images.html

[Jonas S Karlsson (☯大鱼)]

Hope they get hit hard as this is fraud!

They not only use others work but misrepresenting it.

Amy links/info to how they represented that image in their archive? Hope do they prove they have the "rights"?

On Jul 28, 2016 01:03, "Meng Weng Wong" <meng...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://boingboing.net/2016/07/27/photographer-sues-getty-images.html

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[Meng Weng Wong]

I don't know, but it'd be funny if https://blockai.com/ found it