Google fonts Vietnamese support

[Nhung Nguyen]

Hey everyone,

I'm Nhung Nguyen, a self-study 'type designer', typoholic from Vietnam. I have been adding Vietnamese support for custom fonts for quite a while now, started since 2012. 

I'm also a part of a small team working on improving the google fonts directory, which language extending is an important task to do. Since I'm a native Vietnamese speaker, I think it's easier for me to do this job.

My first project is Libre Franklin. My workflow often is as follow:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/19C8YhGWsifeGhq279_A7gi88ytxnbYbSLVPGIOILY3k/edit?usp=sharing

I'll start working in most of the decent quality fonts, as well as the newly improved font by the google font team. Log start everyday after this post.

Thank you for reading. Any comments/critics are welcome.

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On slide 6 the stacked diacritics are smaller, but the overall mass is
the same as a single one. I think this 'inconsistency' in
per-diacritic size but consistency in overall size is fine and a good
solution for not changing the vertical metrics

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Cheers
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[Danh Hong]

Hi Nhung,

I am also Vietnamese speaker. Nice to see you here.

Your "stacked diacritics" look good, but you can keep same verticle metric with original version? If not, I think it is also ok if you move stacked diacritics a litle bit down.

Thanks,

Danh Hong

នៅ 30 មិថុនា 2016 12:14 ល្ងាច, "Dave Crossland" <da...@lab6.com> បាន​សរសេរ៖

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Hi

On slide 6 the stacked diacritics are smaller, but the overall mass is

the same as a single one. I think this 'inconsistency' in
per-diacritic size but consistency in overall size is fine and a good
solution for not changing the vertical metrics

On 29 June 2016 at 23:43, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Cheers
Dave

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[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung,

The attached image show how the metrics works for Libre Franklin.

This 2 are the tallest and lowest glyphs.

The red guidelines are our Bbox limits, as defined in the TypoAscender and TypoDescender.

As you see, we have some free space at the bottom at the /ncommaaccent.
If you need more space to work on the uppercase diacritics, we can move that free space to the top.
It's not much, only 40 units.

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Un Abrazo
Pablo Impallari

[Dave Crossland]

On 30 June 2016 at 09:12, Pablo Impallari <impa...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you need more space to work on the uppercase diacritics, we can move that free space to the top.
It's not much, only 40 units.

That would help :) 

[Pablo Impallari]

Just pushed the commit to the repository.
Now you can use 40 more units. And while I was at it, also fixed the precomposed fractions.

New version is v1.004 https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Franklin

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[Nhung Nguyen]

Hey everyone sorry for my late reply!

1. What I did today

- Making Vietnamese for Libre Franklin Italics v1004, which Pablo just released

2. What I do tomorrow

- Sending an email to Montserrat authors to ask if they allow me to work on Vietnamese of the font.

- Work on montserrat or a random pablo's font, when I haven't received advice about what should I start next.

3. Questions:

- I completed the character set for Vietnamese for Libre Franklin Romans v1003, but not the new version v1004, do I need to redo it or just make a pull request?

- Should I decrease all the sizes of the accents a bit so it'd look better for Vietnamese?

- Which font should I work on after montserrat?

@Dave: As we discussed, I don't know but many of my clients are sensitive with this inconsistency, they didn't like it. So I think moving down the accents (all of them, not just Vietnamese accents) and just decrease their size a bit would be a better solution.

@Danh Hong:

Nice to meet you too. Yes we've discussed and come to that conclusion. Thank you!

@Pablo: Thank you so much!

[Khaled Hosny]

On Mon, Jul 04, 2016 at 03:43:50PM -0700, Nhung Nguyen wrote:
> - Should I decrease all the sizes of the accents a bit so it'd look better
> for Vietnamese?

Can’t you use language-specific alternates for that? (people don’t
always correctly tag text language, but it should be a good compromise).

Regards,
Khaled

[Nhung Nguyen]

Thank you for your suggestion! But I think it isn't necessary because most of Vietnamese don't really use alternates, because they don't know how to use it or know if it even existed, they just go with the default character set. That's from my experiences. Besides, that'd take much more time to complete a master.

[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung,

> - I completed the character set for Vietnamese for Libre Franklin Romans v1003, but not the new version v1004,

Do the uppercase diacritics fitted inside v1003 metrics? I did v1004 metrics change to give you more room at the top.

> do I need to redo it or just make a pull request?

I'm not sure how "merging" works for Glyphs source files. Can I just copy/paste your added glyphs into v1.004?

After merging the new Vietnamese glyphs, I also want to do some extra work on top of it. (fix some kerning pairs problem I just detected in the italics).

Cheers,

Pablo

[Dave Crossland]

On 5 July 2016 at 08:35, Pablo Impallari <impa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure how "merging" works for Glyphs source files. Can I just copy/paste your added glyphs into v1.004?

You can see the structure of the file directly with a regular programmer's diff tool. I like meld:

$ brew install meld;
$ meld original-font.glyphs new-font.glyphs

However, until someone developers a better "glyphs comparison and merging" tool, then perhaps the best way to collaborate is for Nhung to mark the glyphs you touch with a special color so that its easy for Pablo to review?

[Khaled Hosny]

Simply marking HTML with language tag (which people should generally be
doing anyway) is enough to trigger locale-specific alternates in all
browsers that matter, the user does not need to select them manually or
change the text itself.

Regards,
Khaled

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung!

I hope you are well. I have two packages ready for you to work on. 

1. Anton -> https://github.com/kalapi/AntonFont

2. Bevan -> https://github.com/kalapi/BevanFont

Please let me know if you have any questions :)

Best regards,

Kalapi

[Dave Crossland]

Nhung, could you tell us some of the most popular websites in Vietnam? Then we can check if they use HTML language tags :) 

[Jacques Le Bailly]

Hi Nhung !

Could you have a look at my Vietnamese characters ? I made them already, I would like you to check them.

https://github.com/Fonthausen/VT323_GFPlus

Best,

Jacques

[Nhung Nguyen]

@Khaled: Thank you for your suggestion.

@Dave: These are the most popular news pages:

- vnexpress.net

- kenh14.vn

- http://news.zing.vn/

- http://yan.vn

- http://www.daikynguyenvn.com/

You can view more in: http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/VN

Many of them still use the Arial or websafe font though.

@Kalapi: Thank you, I'll look into it and find the best workflow. 

@Jacques: Okay, I'll look through it and get back to you soon!

- What I did today: I tried to write the code for generating characters with no-unicode accents, it turns out that the best workflow is scale down the diacritics, despite the inconsistency. I'm trying to find a workflow that is efficient and fastest. Gonna spend more time the next weekend to do it.

- What I'll do tomorrow: try the workflow on to Kalapi's packages.

- Questions: https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Franklin/pull/9

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Nhung!

Could you recommend some open-source fonts, where Vietnamese looks right?

For reference.

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 8 July 2016 at 21:22, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- What I did today: I tried to write the code for generating characters with no-unicode accents, it turns out that the best workflow is scale down the diacritics, despite the inconsistency. I'm trying to find a workflow that is efficient and fastest. Gonna spend more time the next weekend to do it.

- What I'll do tomorrow: try the workflow on to Kalapi's packages.

- Questions: https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Franklin/pull/9

I just chatted with Nhung and she had some personal issues come up unexpectedly so she hasn't been available to work in the last week. 

My recommendation was that when she returns to work (perhaps later this coming week) then she should...

0. Recommend some fonts where Vietnamese looks right; I remember on a chat/call you mentioned Adobe Garamond Premiere Pro :) 

1. make a glyphs file that doesn't adjust the existing accents that pablo designed, and adds vietnamese glyphs that work well with them, 

2. make another glyphs file that is how she ideally wants the entire set of accents to work, 

3. make a deck explaining the differences

I think these 2 files should be done _*without*_ thinking of the constraints of vertical metrics; then, with the design, the more engineering-focused designers can figure out the technical implications, and how to move forwards. 

And while thats happening, Nhung can move on to 

4. Extending the 'polished' fonts that are cleaned up to Vietnamese, or reviewing them if Vietnamese was already made

--

Cheers
Dave

[Nhung Nguyen]

Hi, sorry for the delay

- What I did today:

Helped Dave to organize designer's contact emails

Learn more glyphs stuffs like multiple masters and preview instances etc...

- What I do tomorrow

Review available Vietnamese fonts, which I'll post them here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vRjHu1SKnK4c7ySm2AjJAwG31_I4SwNjUfAyO-5CsJk/edit?usp=sharing

while I wait for the glyphs lisence

- Questions:

Mostly the fonts look good on a macbook, but in windows it's not good at all. Which system should I base my review to?

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung, 

I hope you are well! 

Can you tell me the following things:

1. Which apps are you testing on?

2. Which version of Windows are you testing on?

3. What ppem/pt size are you referring to?

It would be great if you can post some screenshots, that way I can understand better what you're looking at and how you're judging it :)

Best regards,

Kalapi

[Dave Crossland]

I suggest using the Mac to check the design a hinting is a separate concern

[Nhung Nguyen]

Hi Kalapi, I hope you're good as well!

As for your questions:

1. I'm testing them on Chrome on my Mac.

2. Windows 10

3. Not any specific size, I think the design itself has problem, the size not really matters much. Although the hinting might be at fault but I think we can just find the problems first then try to fix it later.

Okay I'll post some screenshots, but I think the sheet is not a good place to do it. Should I make a deck instead?

[Dave Crossland]

On Jul 25, 2016 10:27 PM, "Nhung Nguyen" <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Kalapi, I hope you're good as well!
>
> As for your questions:
>
> 1. I'm testing them on Chrome on my Mac.
> 2. Windows 10
> 3. Not any specific size, I think the design itself has problem, the size not really matters much. Although the hinting might be at fault but I think we can just find the problems first then try to fix it later.

Yeah I would like to see planning of the Vietnamese collection improvements so we can ensure the most important things are tackled in the next few weeks

[Nhung Nguyen]

I just go ahead and make a deck for this, which can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit?usp=sharing

Notice that this is a work in progress.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Review entire set of Roboto, Open sans, Source sans pro, Lalezar to find errors in Vietnamese. I posted them here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit?usp=sharing

- Review Alexei's rework version of Jura, it has a small problem with uhorn but he fixed it.

2. Tomorrow:

- Buy a glyphs lisence and resumes work with Libre Franklin.

3. Question:

- What's the full tips for designing Vietnamese accents for webfonts? I have some tips but I think it's still lacking something.

- What's the conclusion of how we can handle vertical metrics?

[Dave Crossland]

On 26 July 2016 at 22:48, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- What's the full tips for designing Vietnamese accents for webfonts? I have some tips but I think it's still lacking something.

 

I think the design issue is that you would prefer all Libre Franklin accents to be different, but Pablo doesn't recommend changing them, so we need you to figure out what the best way to handle Vietnamese accents is for existing designs like LF, and if there is a 2nd recommendation for new projects in the future. 

- What's the conclusion of how we can handle vertical metrics?

The conclusion is that we now have 2 recommendations; the first is for existing families and allows to avoid clipping while not changing the v metrics for existing fonts :) So you can draw the vietnamese accents with whatever height you think is best. The second is for new families in the future. 

--

Cheers
Dave

[Danh Hong]

The "horn" in "ò" and "ờ" should be similar, because it related to Vietnamese script history. The "horn" can modify in this case ằ ầ ề ồ for similar to hand writing. That is my opinion.

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[Nhung Nguyen]

- Sorry I didn't quite understand what you mean. You can speak in Vietnamese for better understanding.

- Cháu cám ơn chú ạ, nhưng cháu vẫn chưa hiểu ý chú lắm, chú nói tiếng Việt cũng được ạ. 

[Danh Hong]

Sorry group, I like to write some Vietnamese with Nhung for easy to understand.

Không sao. Dấy "huyền" theo ý kiến của tôi là nên giữ lại nét sáng tạo của tác giả trong trường hợp ỏ è à (o + dấu huyền, e + dấu huyền, a  + dấu huyền) và ờ ừ... nữa. Em chỉnh sửa lại dấu huyền khi kết hợp với ă (ằ) â(ầ) ê(ề) ô(ồ) là cần thiết theo thói quen viết tay của người Việt.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Sorry I didn't quite understand what you mean. You can speak in Vietnamese for better understanding.

- Cháu cám ơn chú ạ, nhưng cháu vẫn chưa hiểu ý chú lắm, chú nói tiếng Việt cũng được ạ. 

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[Danh Hong]

Again:

Không sao. Dấu "huyền" theo ý kiến của tôi là nên giữ lại nét sáng tạo của tác giả trong trường hợp ò è à (o + dấu huyền, e + dấu huyền, a  + dấu huyền) và ờ ừ... nữa. Em chỉnh sửa lại dấu huyền khi kết hợp với ă (ằ) â(ầ) ê(ề) ô(ồ) là cần thiết theo thói quen viết tay của người Việt.

[Nhung Nguyen]

@Danh Hong: dạ vâng, chỉnh lại theo ý chú là chỉnh theo vị trí hay kích thước hay sao ạ? À horn là dấu ư ơ chứ không phải dấu huyền ạ, dấu huyền là grave ạ.

Yes, do you mean fixing the position or the size, or the style of grave in ằ ồ ề ầ?

1. Yesterday:

- I was having trouble activating glyphs but after the developer helped I activated it with no problems. Although I have to wait a couple of hours before they answer my question email.

- Work on Libre Franklin: I'm done with the version I think is best, half way with the version Pablo wants. I scaled down the accents, maintaining the weights, pull them down a litte bit. Also fixed some problems Pablo mentioned in the last push.

2. Today:

- Complete the work I did yesterday: Pablo recommended version of Libre Franklin.

- Make a deck showing the differences and choose one version to be official released.

3. Question:

- None.

[Danh Hong]

Ok. Grave.

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[Danh Hong]

I have no idea about size of grave in ồ ề and ầ, but the position is better for fixing.

On Jul 28, 2016 12:26 PM, "Nhung Nguyen" <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung,

>  2. Today:

> - Complete the work I did yesterday: Pablo recommended version of Libre Franklin.

Please push commits to GitHub as you work, so we can all access the current files and have a look.

The latest online version is from 28 days ago. https://github.com/crystaltype/Libre-Franklin

Cheers,

Pablo

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Un Abrazo
Pablo Impallari

[Nhung Nguyen]

I just pushed the version with .case diacritics, also fixed some problems you mentioned and moved the single accents back to its original position. Please have a look at it: https://github.com/crystaltype/Libre-Franklin/tree/master/source

1. Today:

- Added .case diacritics with Alexei's help. We agreed Alexei will help me produce an xml so I'll have my own set of Vietnamese characters with its own set of accents based on .loclVIT suffix

- Test my version of small diacritics on webfonts. Looks like it's not good at all at small sizes. The diacritics are a little too small to read, it does look good on display size though.

2. Tomorrow:

- push my version of small diacritics so others can learn from my mistake.

- Start to work on montserrat.

3. Questions:

- Is there any list of repo that have glyphs file ready so I can fork from and work on that?

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung,

Have you had a chance to check Anton, Bevan, and Anaheim? :)

Thanks, 

Kalapi

[Nhung Nguyen]

Hi Kalapi!

I just checked them:

- For Anton, I think this is a display typeface, so the accents are a little bit big, and it'd not look good for Vietnamese in display size. I suggest we scale them down.

- For Bevan, the accent sizes are pretty nice, but still it has some problems:

- Anaheim: syntax error at ringcomb.case while exporting to OTF to test. But I think it's good already after viewing them in Glyphs. I'll have to test it as webfont though.

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Thanks Nhung!

LOL > "Tilde is flipped". Don't know how that happened.

I don't know what Dave has in mind but maybe we can talk to him later about you fixing these?

Cheers,

Kalapi

[Nhung Nguyen]

Haha maybe it's the original designer's idea. I don't know about other languages but in general, I think Vietnamese will be a bit annoyed while reading and then come across a flipped tilde.

Sounds good to me! I'll fix them if nothing goes wrong, maybe tomorrow.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Work and do some testing on Montserrat (3 masters). Commited changes: https://github.com/crystaltype/Montserrat.

- Review Kalapi's work Anton, Bevan, and Anaheim

2. Tomorrow:

- Fix Anton, Bevan, and Anaheim if nothing goes wrong.

- Do more testing with Montserrat.

- Start to work with whatever fonts that already have the glyphs file ready for work with.

3. Question:

- I had some question with glyphs but I already ask glyphs boss (Alexei) so I think he'll be able to give me the answer.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Completed reviewing existing google fonts that have Vietnamese problems. The deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit?usp=sharing

- Added .case diacritics to Anton. https://github.com/crystaltype/AntonFont

- Flipped back the tilde for Bevan. I noticed that this font has no kerning. https://github.com/crystaltype/BevanFont

- Testing and Fixing bugs in Montserrat. It has kerning problem in Idotbelow, which I don't know what caused this.

2. Tomorrow:

- Extending more fonts to Vietnamese.

3. Question:

- Should I also work on Bevan's kerning?

- Anyone completed the Vietnamese charset and want me to review them?

[Dave Crossland]

On 2 August 2016 at 10:48, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> - I had some question with glyphs but I already ask glyphs boss (Alexei) so I think he'll be able to give me the answer.

Cool! Please re-post on the forum, so we can all learn Alexei's tricks :) 

[Dave Crossland]

On 3 August 2016 at 14:46, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Should I also work on Bevan's kerning?

- Anyone completed the Vietnamese charset and want me to review them?

Please check in with each designer as they come online tomorrow (in the next few hours :) and ensure their Vietnamese is totally perfect and ready to ship :)

If you still have time after that today, please do kerning of Bevan :)

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung, 

It would be great if you can check the Vietnamese in Alfa Slab. The up-to-date branch (https://github.com/kalapi/alfaslab/tree/sprint-20160804).

Thanks!

Kalapi

[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung,

I had a look at LibreFranklin v1.006.

Overall it seems very good, but there are still a few problems.

I will file issues in your github project to keep things organized

Cheers,

Pablo

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[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung, seems that issues are not enabled at your fork. Can you please enable it?

Cheers,

Pablo

[Pablo Impallari]

In the meantime, Issues reported at https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Franklin/pull/9#issuecomment-237493019

[Andrew Cunningham]

Hi Nhung,

A quick question, when you are testing or evaluating the various fonts' Vietnamese support are you using Vietnamese NFC data, NFD data or Microsoft style strings?

Andrew

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[Dave Crossland]

On Aug 4, 2016 5:08 AM, "Pablo Impallari" <impa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In the meantime, Issues reported at https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Franklin/pull/9#issuecomment-237493019

Thanks Pablo! The way gh works normally is all issues are filled upstream.

For kerning, heck out @Mark2Mark_one's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Mark2Mark_one/status/761133810000027648?s=09

[Nhung Nguyen]

@Andj: Sorry I don't quite understand the question. Could you shed some light to it please?

1. Today:

- Reviewed Vietnamese work of the Raisins: Quicksand, Alfa slab one and Pacifico.

- Learn the glyphs alternates adding workflow so I can work on Montserrat alternates for Vietnamese.

- Fix diacritics position for Libre Franklin.

- Learn glyphs kerning workflow.

2. Tomorrow:

- Fix Quicksand Vietnamese

- Add alternates for Vietnamese on Montserrat

- Extending fonts. Ask Pablo if he can provide the glyphs files for Raleway.

- Learn more glyphs remixtools stuffs

3. Question:

None atm

Glyphs stuffs:

I was asking Alexei if he know any method that can scale the outlines without changing the weight, and he points me to this great tools:

https://remix-tools.com/

[Dave Crossland]

On 4 August 2016 at 17:03, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ask Pablo if he can provide the glyphs files for Raleway.

I would instead like to ask Marc to prepare this, converting these UFOs to a Glyphs file, similar to the work he has done on Rokkitt :) 

https://github.com/impallari/Raleway/tree/master/src/Masters

[Dave Crossland]

On 4 August 2016 at 17:03, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Learn the glyphs alternates adding workflow so I can work on Montserrat alternates for Vietnamese.

... 

- Add alternates for Vietnamese on Montserrat

Yes, now there is just a single glyphs file for the whole family :) I'm happy to see that! :) 

https://github.com/JulietaUla/Montserrat/tree/master/sources

[Pablo Impallari]

Alexei was also working on raleway, beware not to duplicate work

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[Alexei Vanyashin]

No problem, as I am only touching Cyrillic. I will use this new master from now.

I wonder if the kerning has also been fully ported to Glyphs. That is something I couldn't achieve, and would be great to have.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016, 08:54 Pablo Impallari <impa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Alexei was also working on raleway, beware not to duplicate work

On Aug 5, 2016 2:17 AM, "Dave Crossland" <da...@lab6.com> wrote:

On 4 August 2016 at 17:03, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Learn the glyphs alternates adding workflow so I can work on Montserrat alternates for Vietnamese.

... 

- Add alternates for Vietnamese on Montserrat

Yes, now there is just a single glyphs file for the whole family :) I'm happy to see that! :) 

https://github.com/JulietaUla/Montserrat/tree/master/sources

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[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Added alternates for Vietnamese in Montserrat. I couldn't auto select the .001 ones so I had to do it by hand. Marc told me to use the Smart filter in Glyphs to auto select the .001 ones.

- Fix compatibility on Raleway (partial completed).

- Work with Dave on my schedule in round 2. I'm gonna add info to the deck https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit?usp=sharing

2. Tomorrow:

- Work on the deck and continue to fix compatibility on Raleway.

- Fix Quicksand Vietnamese.

- Extending Raleway to Vietnamese.

3. Question:

- None ATM.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Improved Quicksand's Vietnamese:

Redraw the hookabove to look more cleaned and suited to quicksand's clear style:

- Redraw the horn, Thomas' version is curled so it's look like a swash, and in small size it wouldn't give a clear look:

- Also added kerning for Vietnamese based on original's designer kerning.

- Overall improved diacritics positions:

- Work on the Google fonts Vietnamese deck.

- Fix compatibility on raleway italics.

2. Tomorrow:

- Fix Lobster Vietnamese (priority if gets the glyphs file for it)

- Add Vietnamese for raleway

- Review Varela round 

3. Question:

- Any easy way for preview multiple version of a font beside install it and preview it on adobe apps?

[Dave Crossland]

On 8 August 2016 at 15:36, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Improved Quicksand's Vietnamese 

- Work on the Google fonts Vietnamese deck.

The deck is looking good - https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit - but I'd like you to add all the missing things from the 'Round 1' section before starting work on the fonts, so that the documentation for the 'ready to ship' families is ready for Flavio and myself to integrate into the blog. 

 

- Fix compatibility on raleway italics.

Okay cool - Alexei, how is yoru Raleway Cyrillic project going? I'm anxious to confirm your and Nhung's parallel work is not diverging! :) 

 

2. Tomorrow:

- Fix Lobster Vietnamese (priority if gets the glyphs file for it)

Great! Glyphs file is here:

https://github.com/ThomasJockin/The-Lobster-Font/tree/master/source/v1.1

Bangers glyphs file is here:

https://github.com/googlefonts/bangers/tree/master/glyphs_source 

 

- Add Vietnamese for raleway

Sounds good as long as you are in sync with Alexei :) 

 

- Review Varela round 

Jacques hasn't 100% completed this, so perhaps postpone this to Wednesday

 

3. Question:

- Any easy way for preview multiple version of a font beside install it and preview it on adobe apps?

To confirm, you mean previewing all members of a family in an old version and a new version, with a paragraph of text each?

--

Cheers
Dave

[Nhung Nguyen]

To confirm, you mean previewing all members of a family in an old version and a new version, with a paragraph of text each?

Yes.

 The deck is looking good - https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zZ28HbbwfBLdQKtW1r6pCpC2uwDhEZhnye-k67x8liM/edit - but I'd like you to add all the missing things from the 'Round 1' section before starting work on the fonts, so that the documentation for the 'ready to ship' families is ready for Flavio and myself to integrate into the blog. 

Tomorrow I'll add the remain contents, thanks!

1. Today:

- Completed Vietnamese for Raleway and its italics. https://github.com/crystaltype/Raleway

- Worked on bangers a little bit but glyphs keeps crashing, Dave told me to update the app. The problem went away so I'll be working on it tomorrow.

- Reviewed Jacques' work on Valera Round. It's totally good already but Uhookabove and uhookabove is missing.

2. Tomorrow:

- Add more contents to the deck.

- Complete fixing bangers.

- Add kerning and more fixing on Bevan.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

 

Okay cool - Alexei, how is yoru Raleway Cyrillic project going? I'm anxious to confirm your and Nhung's parallel work is not diverging! :) 

No worries, Dave. Only touching Cyrillic glyphs. We will merge them to Nhung's files later.

 

Nhung, about your custom GlyphsData request. I looked into your LibreFranklin file, I can offer a solution so that localised Vietnamese acute and grave(of you want them different from French, etc. ) will be default for vietnamese glyphs. This will happen if the GlyphsData.XML file is located in the same folder as the Glyphs source file. Will this be helpful for your work?

Is there anything else you need coded?

While inspecting your file I found that you are have a stacked diacritic for uppercase set up:

But in actual UC glyphs you are decomposing the accents, and shifting them. I would suggest doing this systematically, i.e. making the changes in the circumflexcomb_acutecomb.case glyph — then these changes will be true for all UC glyphs. 

[Nhung Nguyen]

Nhung, about your custom GlyphsData request. I looked into your LibreFranklin file, I can offer a solution so that localised Vietnamese acute and grave(of you want them different from French, etc. ) will be default for vietnamese glyphs. This will happen if the GlyphsData.XML file is located in the same folder as the Glyphs source file. Will this be helpful for your work?

Yes, that'd be great. I also need the ones for circumflex, breve and tilde (ones with single accents abreve atilde etc..) 

About your suggestion, I'll be fixing it tomorrow, thanks!

1. Today:

- Complete fixing bangers

- Halfway adding kerning for Bevan

2. Tomorrow:

- I don't know yet. Maybe Dave can help me with this.

3. Question:

None

[Dave Crossland]

Please complete the deck :)

[Dave Crossland]

On 10 August 2016 at 15:33, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

2. Tomorrow:

- I don't know yet. Maybe Dave can help me with this.

The deck shows the next families in your queue are:

Bevan

Lobster

Poiret One

Sigmar One

Alfa Slab One

I added links to the best github repo to fork from to the deck; I hope you can get all 5 ready to ship before end of Friday :)

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Discuss with others about Montserrat.

- Cleanups work on bangers.

- Add contents to the deck.

- Kerning Bevan, but I inspected the original font and saw that it already has kerning data. For some reasons it was not imported to glyphs so I asked Kalapi about that. Dave suggests that I leave it because it'd be a tedious work and others might be good at it rather than me. I should focus on Vietnamese.

2. Tomorrow:

- Complete round 1 contents for the deck and work on fixing the remaining Round 1 fonts, so that all will be ready to ship by the end of Friday.

- Work on the next week schedule.

3. Question:

- Can someone direct me to the tutorial about auto kerning in glyphs? I saw that while inspecting kerning for bangers but I don't know how to do it.

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung, 

Anton looks good! Can you please open a pull request so I can merge?

Thanks! 

Kalapi

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Sorry for the multiple posts! 

Please open a pull request for Bevan as well. I'll add kerning for the last source and then maybe you can have a look again at the Vietnamese?

Best,
Kalapi

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Nhung!

 

3. Question:
- Any easy way for preview multiple version of a font beside install it and preview it on adobe apps?

I would say fastest is to drop the fonts to Pablo Impallari's page. Just make sure you name them differently. Then you can easily switch between fonts like tabs.  

http://www.impallari.com/testing/index.php

ASAIK Pablo's page only shows Vietnamese diacritics, so I made a PR with a Vietnamese paragraph. 

About installing a font to preview in Adobe Apps... You don't need to install a font to view it in Adobe Apps. There is an easier method.

When exporting from Glyphs, check the Export Destination option, and enter the folder as follows, 

 

3. Question:

- Can someone direct me to the tutorial about auto kerning in glyphs? I saw that while inspecting kerning for bangers but I don't know how to do it.

Last time I heard about an auto-kerning script was on April 1st. Really? :)

There is Toshe's Bubblekern.

My method for kerning is relatively fast. 

1. Run this script. 

2. Go through a list of core kerning pairs.

This list also includes Cyrillic pairs, and you would need just Latin. I may build one for Latin only later. 

Lastly, I have a small question for you:

If you have any comments, could you please reply on the Inconsolata project thread?

Many thanks, 

Alexei 

 

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 August 2016 at 12:05, Alexei Vanyashin <a...@cyreal.org> wrote:

ASAIK Pablo's page only shows Vietnamese diacritics, so I made a PR with a Vietnamese paragraph. 

That link is for the 'compare' page, not a the 'pr', so I made one:

https://github.com/impallari/Font-Testing-Page/pull/76

[Nhung Nguyen]

Why there's no a "thanks a million" button like in other discussions forum xD? Thank you so much Alexei!

I've replied in your thread about Inconsolata!

1. Today:

- Finishing adding contents to the deck for round 1. Except for Sigmar One. I have a question about this typeface below.

- Review inconsolata Vietnamese done by Alexei and fix them myself since they're just very tiny little problems.

- Discuss with Dave on my schedule.

- Discuss with Pablo about which projects I should do next.

2. Tomorrow:

- Figure out how to set up glyphs file from UFO/vfb with Alexei's help.

- Work on Libre Baskerville/Cabin/Libre Bodoni/Dosis, whatever got the repo set up by Pablo first.

3. Question:

- Sigmar One has too big accents, but If I change their sizes, it'd affect the other languages as well. Seems like I need Alexei help with the XML file to fix Vietnamese on this one.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:01:56 PM UTC+3, Nhung Nguyen wrote:

Why there's no a "thanks a million" button like in other discussions forum xD? Thank you so much Alexei!

I guess because this is Google, not Facebook Groups. I heard they have likes, and emoji on facebook too ;)

 

I've replied in your thread about Inconsolata!

Nhung, thank's a lot for taking the initiative, and fixing my Vietnamese!

3. Question:

- Sigmar One has too big accents, but If I change their sizes, it'd affect the other languages as well. Seems like I need Alexei help with the XML file to fix Vietnamese on this one.

Got ya! Will do this after I clear my pile of work,

[Jacques Le Bailly]

3. Question:

- Sigmar One has too big accents, but If I change their sizes, it'd affect the other languages as well. Seems like I need Alexei help with the XML file to fix Vietnamese on this one.

Accents are big, but the vertical metrics are not good. But If we change those, if will affect the linespacing etc. 

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Nhung, 

I have written instruction for creating localised Vietnamese glyphs, different from default Latin. Please have a look here, (in the Vietnamese branch). 

Could you test them, and let me know your comments? This method is simpler that via GlyphsData.XML.

[Nhung Nguyen]

As expected from glyphs boss xD Thank you so much Alexei, looks great! Actually I asked Dave of this method back when we were at NYC but I didn't know about the existence of .loclVIT at all. This is totally a big help!

I think there's no need for the dotbelowcomb accents since AFAIK only Vietnamese use dotbelow? If not I think this is perfect.

I'm gonna try this to fix sigmar one, then I'll let you know the results. Thanks so much again! 

[Alexei Vanyashin]

On Thursday, August 18, 2016 at 11:00:16 PM UTC+3, Nhung Nguyen wrote:

As expected from glyphs boss xD Thank you so much Alexei, looks great! Actually I asked Dave of this method back when we were at NYC but I didn't know about the existence of .loclVIT at all. This is totally a big help!

I think there's no need for the dotbelowcomb accents since AFAIK only Vietnamese use dotbelow? If not I think this is perfect.

That's right,  Nhung. I am not including ẸẹỊịỌọỤụ, But including Ộ etc, since they have other special Vietnamese accents. 

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Yesterday (17th)

- Fixed David Libre.

- More learning glyphs stuffs with Jacques help.

- Browsing google fonts and choose ones I want to extend to Vietnamese. Indian Type Foundry fonts are good choices/trending. I think after done working with Pablo's projects, I'll move on to these while waiting for the raisins to be ready for Vietnamese review.

2. Today:

- With Jacques' huge help, I figured out glyphs problems and on my way doing the cleanups, removing overlapping points, etc... Thank you so much Jacques!

- With Alexei's guide I managed to finish fixed Vietnamese for Sigmar one, with this, all the round 1 fonts are ready to ship! Also I spotted one small tiny little bit problem on the guide and noted Alexei for fixing.

- Fix Arima Madurai, I added stacked diacritics marks to the Marks section using caps diacritics and use them to make components, instead of the original designer's components.

3. Tomorrow:

- Work with Dave to send out intro emails and do more preparation works.

- Work on Libre Bodoni after fix all the problems.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Do more cleanup work for Libre Bodoni, including removing overlapping points, fix compatibility, renaming glyphs, etc.. 

- Add Vietnamese for Libre Bodoni Romans.

2. Tomorrow:

- Cleanup Libre Bodoni Italics

- Complete adding Vietnamese for Libre Bodoni Italics.

3. Question:

- None.

[Dave Crossland]

On 18 August 2016 at 18:49, Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Work with Dave to send out intro emails and do more preparation works.

We decided that for the next week or two Nhung can work on Impallari's larger families :)

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Complete adding Vietnamese, and fix any problems I could spot in Libre Bodoni and make a pull request to Pablo here: https://github.com/impallari/Libre-Bodoni/pull/10

Details in the topic for Libre Bodoni: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/googlefonts-discuss/I4CMDgGgjM8/t9WREzFFDQAJ

2. Tomorrow:

- Work on adding Vietnamese to Cyreal's Lora.

3. Question:

- I looked at Marc's thread and would really appreciate it if he can somehow make a video, step to step porting fonts from VFB/UFO to glyphs. I'll need it for porting new project sources to glyphs for working. Right now Jacques and Alexei helped me with the glyphs stuffs but a detailed tutorial would really help to clarify any problems remain unnoticed.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today

- Write some thoughts about Vietnamese design guide which Dave and Flavio needed for the blog.

- Added Vietnamese for Lora Roman (regular weight)

2. Tomorrow:

- Continue to work on the guide and Lora.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Completed added Vietnamese to Lora (4 masters). Repo: https://github.com/crystaltype/Lora-Cyrillic

- Browse through google fonts to choose more fonts I want to work in.

2. Tomorrow:

- Work on Marc's repo Cabin. 

3. Question:

- Should I wait for Pablo to review the Cabin repo by Marc first then work on it?

[Pablo Impallari]

I Nhung,

I can review it later tonight and let you know here if there is any issue.

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Un Abrazo
Pablo Impallari

[Pablo Impallari]

Hi Nhung & Mark,

About the Cabin Migration:

I've only did a quick comparison by generating new files from the source Glyphs file and dropping it into the testing page, and there are some weird problems.. not sure what is the problem, but there are some

2016-08-24 20:52 GMT-03:00 Pablo Impallari <impa...@gmail.com>:

I Nhung,

I can review it later tonight and let you know here if there is any issue.

2016-08-24 20:39 GMT-03:00 Nhung Nguyen <vns.won...@gmail.com>:

1. Today:

- Completed added Vietnamese to Lora (4 masters). Repo: https://github.com/crystaltype/Lora-Cyrillic

- Browse through google fonts to choose more fonts I want to work in.

2. Tomorrow:

- Work on Marc's repo Cabin. 

3. Question:

- Should I wait for Pablo to review the Cabin repo by Marc first then work on it?

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Pablo Impallari

[Nhung Nguyen]

I think it's the kerning problem? Do we have any method of properly importing kerning yet?

[Marc Foley]

Hey Nhung and Pablo, 

Problem solved.

The old v1.007 sources had individual .vfb sources for each weight and 1 MM file which had just the extremes. The MM file and the separate .vfb files do not have the same metrics. Given the choice, I will always opt to use the MM file to reconstruct sources. We should check for this issue in the future as well.

I can fix this with scripting tomorrow. Sorry it is 10:15pm here and I need to watch The Great British Bake Off.

Cheers,

Marc

[Marc Foley]

Screw the baking for now.

I pushed an update. The issue should be fixed.

https://github.com/m4rc1e/Cabin

if you already forked the repo, please pull it.

Good night,

Marc

[Nhung Nguyen]

Thanks Marc! You're the best!

I wasn't able to work on thursday and friday so I'll work on weekend instead.

1. Today

- Added Vietnamese for Cabin romans and italics. Repo: https://github.com/crystaltype/Cabin

2. Tomorrow:

- Complete Vietnamese for Cabin Condensed.

- Work on Dosis.

3. Question:

- Sometimes I generate idotbelow with weird sidebearings, tho I've added anchor to idotless and dotbelow, what caused that?

[Kalapi Gajjar-Bordawekar]

Hi Nhung, 

Can you have a look at Dancing Script (https://github.com/kalapi/DancingScript/tree/updates-20160824) and Oswald (https://github.com/kalapi/OswaldFont) when you have some time?

Many thanks, 

kalapi

[Nhung Nguyen]

@Kalapi: sure, I'll have a look at it tomorrow!

1. Today:

Added Vietnamese to Cabin Italics and Condensed, removed overlapping points, fix path direction (3 masters).

2. Tomorrow:

- Review Oswald and Dancing script.

- Add Vietnamese for Dosis

3. Question:

- None

[Nhung Nguyen]

@Kalapi: Dancing script and Oswald are perfect! There's no need fixing anything, wonderful job! :D

1. Today:

- Cleanups work on Dosis, fixed master compatibility and removed overlapping points.

2. Tomorrow:

- Add Vietnamese for Dosis.

3. Question:

- None

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today (31th):

- Added Vietnamese to DosisDosis (2 masters).

- Learning about porting source files to glyphs based on Marc's instruction: https://github.com/m4rc1e/gf-docs/blob/tutorial/UpgradingExistingRepositories.md

2. Tomorrow (1st Sept):

- Add Vietnamese for IndieFlower

- Add Vietnamese for Muli

3. Question:

None

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today (1st Sept):

- Added Vietnamese to Indie Flower.

- Do some bug fixes with Muli but Dave said that I shouldn't do that because Jacques already working with it.

- More testing and learning source prep.

2. Tomorrow:

- Dunno yet. I've pinged everyone on chat so I can get something to work on.

3. Question:

None

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

I'm running out of repo to work so I asked Kalapi and Alexei if they have work for me. But Kalapi need to do more work with Rokitt and Alexei needs to check with Dave if his cyrillic projects need Vietnamese or not, so in the mean time, I keep learning the porting process.

2. Tomorrow:

- Wait for Dave to send emails to the designer and then decide what to port to glyphs and work.

3. Question:

- None

[Dave Crossland]

Hi Nhung!

Please update your deck, so we have 'before/after' and 'interesting moment' images for all the fonts you've worked on :)

I suggest next up is https://github.com/huertatipografica/Kadwa and if you can report issues with the vietnamese on Bungee and Baloo's github trackers that would be great :) https://github.com/djrrb/Bungee/issues/ + https://github.com/EkType/Baloo/issues/

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Cheers
Dave

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today (7th Sept)

- Fixed Vietnamese for Maven Pro

- Add contents to the deck. 

- Keep learning the glyphs porting source process.

2. Tomorrow

- Add Vietnamese for Kadwa and Bitter if nothing changed. Currently I'm waiting for Alexei to reply about the status of these.

3. Question:

- None.

[Alexei Vanyashin]

Hi Nhung, 

Would you like to work on Vietnamese for Lora?

It's a very popular 4 weight family. 

You can fork from here: https://github.com/cyrealtype/Lora-Cyrillic

-a

[Dave Crossland]

On 8 September 2016 at 19:18, Alexei Vanyashin <a...@cyreal.org> wrote:

Would you like to work on Vietnamese for Lora?

Lora would be great :)

[Nhung Nguyen]

Hi Alexei!

Thank you for the recommendation, but I did work on Lora... about one week ago xD when I asked you about it the first time. Gonna make a pull request for it then!

1. Today:

- I pinged Alexei on chat a while ago but he didn't noticed so I pinged him again today in email so Alexei helped me listed his cyrillic projects that don't have Vietnamese yet. So now I have 5-6 families to work on.

- Today I added Vietnamese for Merriweather and Yanone Kaffesatz (halfway). It went smoothly because Alexei's source is really clean. No wonder he's called glyphs boss! xD

2. Tomorrow: 

- Add Vietnamese for Philosopher and Play

3. Question:

- I don't know why this happens, although I've added anchor to all of the components. It only happens with dotbelowcomb+an accented character. Right now I have to use the disable automatic alignment to fix it.

[Nhung Nguyen]

1. Today:

- Added Vietnamese for Philosopher and its italics (4 masters)

- Complete Vietnamese for Yanone Kaffesatz (2 masters)

- Added Vietnamese for Bitter (2 masters)

2. Tomorrow:

- Add Vietnamese for Play, Arvo and Oldstand

3. Question:

None