[CoC] screenshot images. Lazines or incompetence?

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

There is an emerging issue with screenshots of logs or code
being posted to the programming mail lists just because posters
either are too incompetent to learn how to copy/paste text,
or are too lazy to mark relevant parts and then press a few
keys more than PrtSc. Meanwhile asking others to give to
them a ten minutes or a half an hour.

Our list has a CoC. And I urge whomever is responsible
for enforcing it to act promptly not only in cases of trolls being
called by name but also in a cases of such blatant and grave
discrimination as recent [1].

I also urge anyone who gives their time to look at the posted picture,
just because they can see, and who want to help a screenshot's OP
to demand from her or him that she or he will take her time to repost
her answer this time with errs/code in textual form.

Thank you for your attention,

TC

[1] > From: Nada Saif <nada....@gmail.com> at Fri, 8 Mar 2019 17:00:30 +0200
> The go command works, but when I try to build any golang code,
> it gives me : [image: go-err.png]

P.S. Only on a few lists I know of moderators or admins reacted
fast. On others lists, where such discriminating behavior was not
stopped outright at its advent, screenshots plague catches
like a wildfire. To the point that now someone posting megabytes
of screencast think he's right because "ah, I gave mp4 as it went
over the terminal window so I scrolled it all for someone to see".

--
Wojciech S. Czarnecki
<< ^oo^ >> OHIR-RIPE

[Dan Kortschak]

There is an increasing culture of this in many places. Many students
often post screen shots in place of reproducers and textual error. I
invariably reply that they need to post code and text. I am not sure I
am winning here.

Dan

[Manlio Perillo]

I would say lack of culture.

One of the thing I don't like with golang-nuts is that there is not an unique quoting rule.

People here use both top and bottom posting.  Coming from usenet I feel a bit uncomfortable like now when I'm replying to this thread.

I consider polite to use the interleaved reply style and to trim the original message as much as possible.  It requires time and thinking, something that seems to be rare nowadays.

Only few people do this on golang-nuts and goland-dev.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Manlio Perillo

[Reto Brunner]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 04:36:32AM -0700, Manlio Perillo wrote:
> I consider polite to use the interleaved reply style and to trim the
> original message as much as possible. It requires time and thinking,
> something that seems to be rare nowadays.

And yet you are right now also not doing it, adding to the problem.

Then again, not everyone uses a mail client where things like this is obvious, some prefer to use gmail for example. Now, gmail doesn't care about threading and automatically top / bottom posts (not sure which direction).

People aren't in the 80s anymore where a 72 char limit was nice, due to the screen size. Automatic line wrapping is a thing since a while, so are clients that strip (or hide) the quoted message trail.

So in short: get used to it :)

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 07:39:40 -0400
Sameer Ajmani <sam...@golang.org> wrote:

> I believe calling fellow community members lazy or incompetent
> violates our Code of Conduct.

Q.E.D.

> Please endeavor to restate your concern in a way that doesn't insult others.
> I expect they simply do not know why sending screenshots is problematic.

I used "Either". If the OP "simply do not know why sending screenshots is problematic"
she or he **is incompetent**. If he or she does know but still uses PrtSc/Enter, she or
he is at least **lazy**.

I need not, making a voice for sight impaired persons being discriminated here
(in fact right against the law of both EU and US) I need not to be a hypocrite.

Where in CoC is written that I am obliged to be a liar?

Where in CoC is written that I must do care about an incompetent or a lazy person
feelings more than I care about sight impaired person's ability to get to the
information others can simply see?

> Please endeavor to restate your concern in a way that doesn't insult others.

Just please react in prompt to the postings containing screenshots of logs or code.


TC,

[Shulhan]

True. But we are in the era of mobile phone where screen size is
smaller again (for some phone, maybe). I like to read email before
sleep, keeping up-to-date with recent discussion and what not. Keeping
the email short and structured kinda plus for me, since most MUA on
phone does not handle threading very well.

> So in short: get used to it :)
>

Most of the time, I get used to it.

--
{ "github":"github.com/shuLhan", "site":"kilabit.info" }

[Reto Brunner]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 07:46:27PM +0700, Shulhan wrote:
> I like to read email before sleep, keeping up-to-date with recent discussion and what not.

How are you able to cope with mailing lists?
I find list messages seriously unreadable with the gmail app, due to the lack of threading.

[Robert Engels]

I think you are confusing screenshots and copy and paste as html. The latter works with screen readers and still gives colored text because most likely the person is using an IDE.

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[Manlio Perillo]

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 1:02:54 PM UTC+1, Reto Brunner wrote:

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 04:36:32AM -0700, Manlio Perillo wrote:
> I consider polite to use the interleaved reply style and to trim the
> original message as much as possible.  It requires time and thinking,
> something that seems to be rare nowadays.

And yet you are right now also not doing it, adding to the problem.

For this reason I wrote that I  feelt a bit uncomfortable when I'm replying to this thread.

I wanted to quote text from both ohir and kortschak, but it was not possible.

In your case you removed all the extra text, and it is good since you quoted only the necessary text.

Then again, not everyone uses a mail client where things like this is obvious, some prefer to use gmail for example. Now, gmail doesn't care about threading and automatically top / bottom posts (not sure which direction).

I'm using gmail. 

People aren't in the 80s anymore where a 72 char limit was nice, due to the screen size. Automatic line wrapping is a thing since a while, so are clients that strip (or hide) the quoted message trail.

The problem with gmail, IMHO, is that it wrap lines *only* after you send the message, not while you are editing it.

This causes problem when I'm trying to format the text, e.g. when I write a bullet list.  I'm not the only one with this issue.

So in short: get used to it :)

Well, it is a simple solution.

However the current situation makes it hard to read long threads, especially when you don't start to read them from the start.

Manlio Perillo

[Shulhan]

As long as its text and people keep bottom posting its works quite
well, I can scroll from top to bottom easily. But, when its top
posting sometimes I lost the context, and need to click the "hidden"
quoted text below it. If its unreadable, I just ignore it.

[Ian Denhardt]

Quoting Robert Engels (2019-03-11 09:36:40)

> I think you are confusing screenshots and copy and paste as html. The latter works with screen readers and still gives colored text because most likely the person is using an IDE.

I suspect Wojciech is not confusing these two, seeing as just now I was
reading another thread in which the question included an attachment of a
raster image of plain text.

It's probably worth just getting into the habit of responding to these
with a canned response:

> Please do not post screenshots of text to the mailing list. Not
> everyone on this list can see, so doing so excludes people. Rather,
> copy and paste the text into the body of the email.

It takes < 30 seconds to do so, and I think pushing for norms that keep
our technology accessible are worth much more than that.

-Ian

[Robert Engels]

That’s not exactly what I meant. I meant that copy and pasting from an IDE will often result in colored formatted text like looks like a screenshot but it is not, and a screen reader should have no problem with it.

[Ian Denhardt]

Right, I understood what you were saying, but the fact is people *are*
posting *screenshots* to the list.

(I imagine others are *also* pasting from an IDE, but like you say a
screen reader should have no trouble with those, so I assume a blind
user wouldn't even notice anything off about those messages. I don't
notice because I use a terminal mail client which runs html mail
through `lynx -dump`).

-Ian

Quoting Robert Engels (2019-03-11 13:56:31)

[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 5:22 AM Wojciech S. Czarnecki <oh...@fairbe.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 07:39:40 -0400
> Sameer Ajmani <sam...@golang.org> wrote:
>
> > I believe calling fellow community members lazy or incompetent
> > violates our Code of Conduct.
>
> Q.E.D.
>
> > Please endeavor to restate your concern in a way that doesn't insult others.
> > I expect they simply do not know why sending screenshots is problematic.
>
> I used "Either". If the OP "simply do not know why sending screenshots is problematic"
> she or he **is incompetent**. If he or she does know but still uses PrtSc/Enter, she or
> he is at least **lazy**.
>
> I need not, making a voice for sight impaired persons being discriminated here
> (in fact right against the law of both EU and US) I need not to be a hypocrite.
>
> Where in CoC is written that I am obliged to be a liar?
>
> Where in CoC is written that I must do care about an incompetent or a lazy person
> feelings more than I care about sight impaired person's ability to get to the
> information others can simply see?

Please read the Code of Conduct, which can be found at
https://golang.org/conduct. In particular, read the "Gopher values"
section. The approach you are taking in these messages is not going
to encourage people to solve the problem. Nobody is saying that you
shouldn't complain about this issue. They are saying that you should
do so in a way that brings people together to solve it, not in a way
that splits them apart. Thanks.

> Just please react in prompt to the postings containing screenshots of logs or code.

Thanks. We will do our best.

Ian

[Dan Kortschak]

My approach to dealing with these it that I set my mail client to text
only display. This means that I see plain text where IDE coloured text
is pasted, and I don't see images unless I go out of my way to do so.

Dan

[Lucio]

On Monday, 11 March 2019 13:04:03 UTC+2, kortschak wrote:

There is an increasing culture of this in many places. Many students
often post screen shots in place of reproducers and textual error. I
invariably reply that they need to post code and text. I am not sure I
am winning here.

It's clearly become a lot easier, I find myself preferring it, specially in IM, because screenshots are a lot more informative (think graphics) and, these days, very easily accomplished.

The CoC should penalise only wanton usage and leave it to fate to punish less intentional misuse.

Lucio.

 

[Ian Denhardt]

Quoting Lucio (2019-03-12 02:13:00)

> specially in IM, because screenshots are a lot more informative (think
> graphics) and, these days, very easily accomplished.

The context of the discussion was screenshots *of text*, so this doesn't
really apply.

> The CoC should penalise only wanton usage and leave it to fate to
> punish less intentional misuse.

I'm definitely not keen on "punishing" people making honest mistakes --
but I also think that we should push back on this, point out that it is
a problem and why, and expect people to be willing to learn.

-Ian

[Chris FractalBach]

Sorry in advance, but I just couldn't resist the opportunity to lighten the mood in this thread: 

I thought this was objectively funny =)

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 11:55:27 -0700
Ian Lance Taylor <ia...@golang.org> wrote:

> In particular, read the "Gopher values" section.

> The approach you are taking in these messages
> is not going to encourage people to solve the problem.

Yes, indeed. I humbly apologize for the form of raising my concerns.

It was an adrenaline rush due to my memories — of the CoC values
being enforced where the interlocutors misrailed a bit toward sarcasm,
yet discriminating behavior of screenshot posters apparently was not
noticed at all.

> They are saying that you should do so in a way that brings people
> together to solve it, not in a way that splits them apart.

I officially petition for CoC's "Be thoughtful" point to be amended with
reminder about the form of communication:

"Think about whether the form of your message will be accessible to
the all members of the community, including people with disabilities."

And I petition for the go-nuts list introduction [1] to be explicit about
screenshot attachments and about using playground for longer
snippets of code. For example with:

=====

Never post screenshots unless the image provides a non-textual
effect of some erroneous code or if the image is otherwise essential
to the understanding of the problem stated.

Long error messages, like of panic with a stack trace, should be redirected
to the file first then this file should be posted as an attachment.
Logs are of no use if chopped (formatted as a text) by the mail client.

Be as specific as possible. The more relevant and specific to the
problem details you will provide to the community, the more precise
and helpful response you may expect.

Let community have a full context to your question: post the code
you are asking about. Mention the platform, OS and Go version.
Small snippets embedded into message as code blocks are ok,
longer ones should be given as a link to the code put into the
[playground](https://play.golang.org).

=====

[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/golang-nuts

> We will do our best.

Thank you.

> Ian

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 23:13:00 -0700 (PDT)
Lucio <lucio...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's clearly become a lot easier

An that is the crux of the problem.

It is so easy that it easily turns off the brain and suppress
the last faint of thought that text turned into the image:

* is not searchable
* can neither be edited nor compiled
* is not available to the part of the population

And so that simply cuts off the poster from the very people
who otherwise might help: experienced and knowledgeable ones.
Most of them will not waste their time looking at the picture they
can not correct or compile.


> The CoC should penalise only wanton usage.

Ie. All but for misbehaving font rendering code.

> and leave it to fate to punish less intentional misuse.

Any use is likely never intentional (malice).
It is just **easier** (mindless).

> Lucio.

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 12:56:31 -0500
Robert Engels <ren...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> colored formatted text like looks like a screenshot but it is not

Neither form "looks" for the blind person. And only one reads.

[David Riley]

On Mar 12, 2019, at 7:44 AM, Wojciech S. Czarnecki <oh...@fairbe.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 23:13:00 -0700 (PDT)
> Lucio <lucio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's clearly become a lot easier
>
> An that is the crux of the problem.
>
> It is so easy that it easily turns off the brain and suppress
> the last faint of thought that text turned into the image:
>
> * is not searchable
> * can neither be edited nor compiled
> * is not available to the part of the population

The above are more important, but I would also add:

- is hundreds to thousands of times larger than the original text

I don't know in what world it's "easier" to screenshot a section of the screen and attach the file than it is to highlight and copy some text, except on Twitter where there are actual character limits. Taking a screenshot of plain text is like taking a tank to the grocery store across the street. Please don't; it is inconsiderate, full stop.


- Dave

[Ian Denhardt]

(For those who can't see the image: it's a photo of a monitor with the
original message in this thread, with the words "too incompetent to
learn how to copy/paste text" highlighted).

I feel like I'm missing something; I hate having to ask for a joke to be
explained, but...?

-Ian

Quoting Chris FractalBach (2019-03-12 06:57:44)

> Sorry in advance, but I just couldn't resist the opportunity to lighten

> the mood in this thread:�

>
> lol.jpg
> I thought this was objectively funny =)
>

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[mineg...@gmail.com]

As screenshots are often posted by people unfamiliar with the group, it is unlikely that the issue would get resolved as it is more of a culture issue than these posts specifically. I doubt many users looking for help will seek out old emails to determine if they are allowed to post screenshots or not.

One thing that did come up in this thread that could be addressed by those who do reply with help is the unsearchable part. When someone answers with a link to a Playground program to show how to do something, that external link is now unsearchable in the group as a whole. While I love having the full program included directly in a runnable Playground, having the important parts also copy/pasted into the email would be valuable for those searching.

[Robert Engels]

I did just encounter a case though where trying to copy and paste a table wasn’t happening, and there is no way I am going to type it all in or get the author to change it, so screen shot it is... I understand the problem, but calling people lazy just isn’t correct in many cases. 

On Mar 12, 2019, at 3:47 PM, mineg...@gmail.com wrote:

As screenshots are often posted by people unfamiliar with the group, it is unlikely that the issue would get resolved as it is more of a culture issue than these posts specifically. I doubt many users looking for help will seek out old emails to determine if they are allowed to post screenshots or not.

One thing that did come up in this thread that could be addressed by those who do reply with help is the unsearchable part. When someone answers with a link to a Playground program to show how to do something, that external link is now unsearchable in the group as a whole. While I love having the full program included directly in a runnable Playground, having the important parts also copy/pasted into the email would be valuable for those searching.

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[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:09 AM Wojciech S. Czarnecki <oh...@fairbe.org> wrote:
>
> And I petition for the go-nuts list introduction [1] to be explicit about
> screenshot attachments and about using playground for longer
> snippets of code.

Thanks, I added a shorter version of that to the intro. I don't know
how many people read that--certainly many people don't notice the note
that the group is moderated--but we'll see if it helps.

Ian

[David Chase]

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 5:45:36 PM UTC-4, Robert Engels wrote:

I did just encounter a case though where trying to copy and paste a table wasn’t happening, and there is no way I am going to type it all in or get the author to change it, so screen shot it is...

I have done the same -- but it is really an upstream instance of the same problem that Ohir points out:

If all that is needed is text, then text is good, and pictures of text are bad.

And when I had to deal with pictures of text, I was furious, and it came through loud and clear in the bug report for which the pictures should not have been necessary.

There's lots of details for accessibility, it would be nice if we had tools to help us remember because otherwise we're certain to forget from time to time.

See/hear for example Julia Ferraioli's Gophercon talk on increasing accessibility in the code that we write: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVaDY0ChvOQ

(Her eyes apparently do not focus dependably, hence the screen reader.)

Sorry if I committed a quoting mistake, I can't tell if that is an issue or not, though I saw some mention.

[Wojciech S. Czarnecki]

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 14:49:54 -0700

Ian Lance Taylor <ia...@golang.org> wrote:

> Thanks, I added a shorter version of that to the intro. I don't know
> how many people read that--certainly many people don't notice the note
> that the group is moderated--but we'll see if it helps.

Thank you. Even in that short form it certainly will help as it can be linked
to from the educational message.

[Tom Mitchell]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 3:17 AM Wojciech S. Czarnecki <oh...@fairbe.org> wrote:

There is an emerging issue with screenshots of logs or code
being posted

........... 

I also urge anyone who gives their time to look at the posted picture,
just because they can see, and who want to help a screenshot's OP
to demand from her or him that she or he will take her time to repost
her answer this time with errs/code in textual form.

 

It is wasteful of bandwidth and storage.
It is also a risk... perhaps enough to disallow.
Image format decoding is not sufficiently safe to be enabled blindly
on my mail reader.   Images and URIs can be the vector of viruses and malware.

https://tools.cisco.com/security/center/viewAlert.x?alertId=52257
"Summary
"A vulnerability in Adobe Flash Player could allow an unauthenticated, remote attacker to execute arbitrary code.
"The vulnerability is due to improper handling of regular expressions by the affected software. An attacker could exploit this vulnerability by persuading a user to open a malicious web page that contains crafted Flash content. A successful exploit could trigger a stack-based buffer overflow condition in the RegExp class for specific search strategies, which the attacker could use to execute arbitrary code in the context of the current process.
"Adobe has confirmed the vulnerability in a security bulletin and released software updates."

--

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