[GMCnet] YES. An electric fan.

[Bob Dunahugh]

A guy In Georgia put an aluminum radiator in her 73 GMC. Then told her that he could put in an electric fan that would be better then the stock fan, and shroud. It couldn't pull in enough air to cool the 455 on hills. He put in 16 gauge wire. with a 20 amp relay. To protect the wiring. He put in a 40 amp fuse. That's a plan. As she was leaving Shawnee. The relay fried. So I put the highest amp switch in that I could find. 35 amp. And told her to turn the fan on in town, and for hills only to get her the 500 miles to my house. How the wire held up. I don't know. But it did. She said that the switch was getting hot at times. I can't remember the name of the guy that ripped her off. It's discussing. Just not right what he charged her. Somebody must know his name. Bob Dunahugh
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

[Ken Burton]

How much current is that fan suppose to draw?
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Ken Henderson]

Bob,

I hope it's not Zeb Frady you're talking about working on Barbara's coach.
That doesn't sound like the quality work I've always expected from him.
But I don't know of anyone else in GA who knows enough about GMC's to check
the water level.

Ken H.

[roy keen]

A good quality electric fan that moves a lot of air will surely require heavy wire and high current rated relay contacts. In most cases it will also
require a higher capacity alternator in the vehicle. When all is said and done the heavy duty clutch fan that was removed was the better choice.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[Jim Kanomata]

Roy,
High capacity fans do require HC Alternators.
Fans are not all alike. Some flow lot of air, but when a radiator is placed
in front of it , the flow drops considerably. Flow does not mean much till
they can supply a chart showing amount of flow at certain resistance.
On our Air Filter Housing and blower side of our business, I'm always
sizing different blowers to diffferential pressure drop through coils,etc.
I have yet to find a fan unit that I can comfortably install to handle
cooling situation in severe cases.
One GMC shop install an electric fan on her coach, now she is having
heating problems.
Most knowledgeable shops spend time exchanging and asking questions weekly
so we don't come up with something for a customer that does not work.
I notice he never shows up at any National functions where we exchange
information.
I learn lot of things at these functions, and share information.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Kingsley Coach]

Bob said " A guy In Georgia" put in the electric fan. Zeb Frady was a name
mentioned but not tied to this situation!

Let's find out WHO did the work before we have a short circuit......

Mike in NS

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !

[David H. Jarvis]

I wonder if the fan was a pusher or puller...

[Jim Kanomata]

I believe it was a puller.
We have concluded that the puller is the best for our application, but
again it has not worked for us and others.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Bob Dunahugh]

Barb said it was Zeb, or his son. Aluminum Radiator, fan, belts, 80 amp alternator, and some exhaust gaskets. I think that was all she said. At close to $5,000. Seems fair. Right? We talked tonight on the plan. Trans is going in Thursday/Friday. We all played today. So tomorrow I'm starting at the front. Going to check everything till I get to the rear. Then buff the paint. And paint the black trim around the windows. I want it to run, and look good. Probably be a two week job. She's going to help Linda. So I'm going to be on the no labor plan. Bob Dunahugh

[Bob Dunahugh]

The fan is a big puller with no shroud. As it's up close to the Rad. Bob

[Kingsley Coach]

Then it's official, it was done at Zebs and for almost $5000....Wow. !

Mike in NS

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !

[Mike Kelley]

Sounds like very bad publicity for Zeb - just sayin. Why would a GMCer do that to himself - no answer needed!!!
I did not know that name before this thread - and now am sure I will forget it immediately - no sense in asking for trouble.
BTW - love this group - am learning a lot!
Mike/The Corvair a holic

Sent from my iPhone

[Jim Kanomata]

In my book, you need a good fan shroud to utilize as much of the area as
possible to reduce pressure by spreading out the flow in through the
radiator.
We use data from Spal fans as they publish the CFM with the resistance, so
we have an idea of true flow.
Free flow data is worthless than a nipple on a Hog.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[roy keen]

A short story about an electric fan installed on a 1969 Pontiac firebird? My friend took his car to a hot rod shop to install an aftermarket air
conditioner. They installed the a/c and replaced the stock engine driven fan with a cheap electric fan. The engine ran hot my friend took it back and
they replaced the radiator with a new 4 row radiator and a new thermostat. Still ran hot so they told him he needs a new engine. He took it to a
different shop they changed the thermostat again and smaller water pump pulley. Ran hot still and told him he needed a new motor. My friend was in
very poor health out a lot of money and his car was unusable for a year so I told him I would fix it and the least expensive way was the stock schroud
and a 2747 or 2797 clutch fan same as on the GMC. The car now ran rock steady at 180 degrees ,my friend died 6 months later but at least he was able
to drive his hot rod. A high flow electric fan ,heavy wire.relay , and bigger alternator would have been ok but at a much greater cost and probably
not as good in my opinion.

[Jim Kanomata]

Roy,
You did the right thing.
There is no single electric fan unit that can pull air through our radiator
like the OEM unit.
We came down to a two fan unit from Spal as the closest, but not close
enough.
To make it work somewhat, one need to have a good fan shroud and even more
higher capacity fan at pressure drop of .60" WG minimum.

> 1-800-752-7502 <(800)%20752-7502>

[Hal StClair]

Just another note of interest on fans. When I re powered my SOB I was fortunate enough to deal with the engineering department at Modine and they by
chance were in the process of redesigning the cooling system for the E series MCI bus.This enabled me to get real numbers required to cool the beast.
Not the same exact bus I was working with but in the ball park for data. The fan I swing is a 34" monster but the HP required to spin that bad boy
calculated to 52 HP at 2400 rpm fan speed. Any thought of an electric driven fan with that capability would have required a trailer mounted APU pulled
behind me, NOT gonna happen.
It might be possible to achieve the required cooling on our GMC's with electric fans but it sure won't be a simple process.
JMHO, Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout

[Pete Smith]

Any thoughts on electric fan(s) (pusher?) As backup for extra hot days/stuck in traffic?

Pete
--
Cary, NC

No Coach yet but likely center kitchen, dry side bath Royale, 78, 403, hopefully with good original white Imron paint.

[Matt Colie]

thesmith wrote on Tue, 11 April 2017 12:06

> Any thoughts on electric fan(s) (pusher?) As backup for extra hot days/stuck in traffic?
>
> Pete

Pete,

Those of us with good fans, clutches and full shrouds have not had many issues with over heating even in traffic.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Emery Stora]

Yes, my thought is that it is a waste of time and money. It would take too much current for a large enough fan to do any good.
If you are often having problems with hot day or stuck in traffic you should consider using a 70% mix of antifreeze coolant instead of 50%. That will give you a higher boil protection.
You should also turn off your air conditioner if in that condition.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

[A.]

thesmith wrote on Tue, 11 April 2017 11:06

> Any thoughts on electric fan(s) (pusher?) As backup for extra hot days/stuck in traffic?
> Pete

In traffic, the engine isn't burning 6 gallons per hour like it is at highway speed, so the radiator needs to dissipate less energy. The fan makes
fewer turns per unit time which mostly balances out. The stock design is sufficient 99.9% of the time. The exception would be like that time when I
was a kid in the station wagon for the bi-annual cross-country summer trip, trying to get through Las Vegas stop and go "rush" hour traffic lights
mid/late afternoon when the temperature was 120F. Pull over somewhere and wait for sundown like we did.
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"When I grow up I am going to be a curmudgeon."

[gene Fisher]

I agree with Emery and jim k,
http://gmcmotorhome.info/engine.html#electric

Flar ass waste of time and money

But is your foot aim for it,....

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I'm dissapointed to hear that Frady appears to have goone over to the 'soak them' side. He was an asset to the community in the Southeast. However,
he ebayed his GMC specific parts a while back. Maybe he doesn't wanna mess with them any more. Shame.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Kingsley Coach]

I've always had a pusher fan mounted in the front and blowing back towards
the engine I have it on a separate switch that I can flick on and off if I
see the temperature starting to rise...or even thinking about going up. It
is particularly useful on the 40 heading east out of Albuquerque. That is
one long, dirty, haul when towing ........<g>

Mike in NS

--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !

[Jim Kanomata]

The pusher fan can assist you a little, but the fact that it blocks air
flow when not in use, negates the benefit.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Bob Dunahugh]

From what I understand. Zed was backing off on GMC work at the time Barb's work was done. And Barb's cooling issues became known by many because she was just trying to solve a problem that she was still having. After the work was completed. And many wanted to know why she was still having over heating issues. Many talented guys have tried unsuccessfully to get an electric fan to work. And I could only list the equipment, and wire sizes installed. I do think it's important to put out to GMC owners. That electric fans at his point just aren't a viable idea. I'm just trying to fix her problem with a free fan, shroud, and labor. She bought a new fan clutch. I think it's so neat that she's out there with her dog. Traveling the roads of this country. So I'm putting in my 2 cents of time to help her meet her dreams. Bob Dunahugh

[Jim Miller]

On Apr 11, 2017, at 11:16 PM, Bob Dunahugh <yenk...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> And Barb's cooling issues became known by many because she was just trying to solve a problem that she was still having. After the work was completed. And many wanted to know why she was still having over heating issues.

Has a cracked head or defective head gasket been ruled out as a source of her overheating problem?

I fought overheating issues for a long time and tried everything - radiators, fan clutches, timing, thermostats… The Eureka Moment was when I started the coach for the first time of the year and noticed liquid coolant peeing out of the exhaust pipe and voluminous white smoke. Upon pulling the driver side head I found not only a crack in the head but also the OEM head gasket was corroded and in very bad shape.

My overheating problem only appeared during high engine load. Driving around town or cruising on the Interstate at 55MPH - normal engine temps. Climbing hills or cruising at 65MPH - overheating.

Some pics (and what I speculate was the cause of the original crack) at: http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/album28

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

[John R. Lebetski]

One of the reasons GM started using factory installed Barsleak. I'm not big on "fix it in a can" but in this case it makes sense as it nips invisible
internal leaks and prevents the continuing head gasket degredation mentioned above. A simple dose when you do your every 2 year coolant drain and fill
(everyone does that right on schedule regardless of miles right???) will keep the small problems from developing into big ones. Of course a cracked
head is reason for surgery to fix correctly, but I think it's a good insurance to keep coolant where it belongs. On the overheating coach ---wouldn't
a properly executed pressure test relieved the issue in the first billable hour?
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Gary Kosier]

Whn did they stop using the Ginger Root pills that they used for years? My
personal experience with Barsleak was not very good.

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "John R. Lebetski" <gransp...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] YES. An electric fan.

[Emery Stora]

I don't think GM changed. Bart's is marketing the same ginger root "pills" in blister paks labeled Barrs Stop Leak.

Emery Stora

[Bob Dunahugh]

She's hasn't been adding coolant. But adding a qt of oil at about 1,000 miles. Nothing out the tail pipe. I understand that Zeb has done good work over the years. He talked her into the electric fan. She wasn't in favor of it. Her shroud was broken, and gone. She wanted a shroud with the aluminum radiator. The reality here is that Barb could have lost a good running 455 over this. I don't knock what others do. But this? The electric fan was his idea to push. And there hasn't been one person that thinks electric fans work in our application. I wish Zeb the best. Bob Dunahugh

[Ken Henderson]

I think we should be talking about Zeb Jr. From what I hear, Zeb, who was
a well-regarded GMC mechanic from 1976 until a couple of years ago, had
turned the business over to Zeb Jr. The company had gotten away from GMC
specialization and into SOB's several years ago. On some SOB's, including
a couple of 454-powered ones I owned "back when", electric fans are a
worthwhile addition.

Ken H.

[Jim Miller]

On Apr 12, 2017, at 10:00 AM, John R.Lebetski <gransp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the overheating coach —wouldn't a properly executed pressure test relieved the issue in the first billable hour?

I expect mine wouldn’t have indicated a problem during a pressure test because the rate of loss of pressure around rings and valves would have been indistinguishable from the rate of loss through the crack.

The machine neither gained nor lost coolant nor oil under any circumstances - and as I mentioned previously it only exhibited overheating problems when operated at sustained heavy load. My speculation is that the combination of combustion heat and cylinder pressure under those high-load conditions was enough to allow the crack to bleed some amount of combustion products into the coolant passage between the valve pockets. If the engine was not heavily loaded it would hold very close to thermostat temperature under almost all conditions.

Now if I had sent some coolant to Blackstone or a similar lab and they had found combustion products in it…then I would have had my answer right away. Historically I have not used lab testing of fluids as part of my troubleshooting process but I think I’ll be integrating them in the future based on this experience.

—Jim

Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

[Shan Rose]

I am running an electric fan setup successfully for almost 7 years now. you need more like 80 amps of power. each one of my fans will move 4500 CFM
but they take 35 amps of current each. one fan works fine but 2 is needed for hot days and on grades. I use a flexalite controller and a separate
relay, the shitty little 30 amp jobs sold in stores wont work you need to order at least 50s off the net. Also wiring, 10 gauge all around an an 8ga
master wire straight from the battery to a fusible link with an appropriate load rated fuse.

BobDunahugh wrote on Sun, 09 April 2017 00:46

> A guy In Georgia put an aluminum radiator in her 73 GMC. Then told her that he could put in an electric fan that would be better then the stock
> fan, and shroud. It couldn't pull in enough air to cool the 455 on hills. He put in 16 gauge wire. with a 20 amp relay. To protect the wiring. He
> put in a 40 amp fuse. That's a plan. As she was leaving Shawnee. The relay fried. So I put the highest amp switch in that I could find. 35 amp. And
> told her to turn the fan on in town, and for hills only to get her the 500 miles to my house. How the wire held up. I don't know. But it did. She
> said that the switch was getting hot at times. I can't remember the name of the guy that ripped her off. It's discussing. Just not right what he
> charged her. Somebody must know his name. Bob Dunahugh

[Terry]

The pressure test is pressurizing the cooling system, not the combustion chamber. The much higher combustion pressure will make it through where
coolant won't at 13-15 psi. In the tool truck is a detection kit for doing that byproduct test without having to send a sample away. Expensive if you
don't use it to generate income, but it was pretty reliable with the results.
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.

[Jim Kanomata]

Shan,
Can you give me a call as I would like to confer with you on your system.
Putting on a load at high ambient temperatures for a long pull will show
the reliability.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Shan Rose]

Crap I just wrote a whole response then the net crapped out, I'll try again. Jim, I also failed to mention that I had also upgraded the charging
system to one out of a 1995 northstar caddy. I took the Alt and charging cable which is 6ga. the alt is 140 amps which is plenty to run the fans and
still charge the system. The fans I used I forget the part number but they were from 1989-95 Ford Thunderbird Supercoupe which were supercharged V6s,
the 3.8s were prone to overheating naturally aspirated. so ford made this killer fan that frankly works. I took the fans and shrouds, and staggered
them in a diagonal configuration across the radiator in the GMC. they are a little larger than the rad itself so I had to use some fabrication using
framing brackets from home depot to mount them. I ziptied the centers together where they met to avoid having to run a 3rd support bracket and the
structure proved sound. I used a Flexlite 33055 controller to launch the first fan, and tapped off the power lead to trigger a relay that fires the
second fan, thus not overloading that controllers amp rating, it works very well but you need at least a 50 amp relay. when I first installed this
system I had a stock radiator, and I tested it on the 14 near santa clarita on a 104 degree day. the fans did the job and the coolant rarely got over
200 degrees. With the new Aluminum radiator they almost never come on unless in traffic. at highway speed is good but I have yet to test them on say a
challenging ride like baker grade in july. the system also allows me to put the fans on 100% of the time. They both move a lot of air. the cost for
fans, and alt from PickaPart was like $75 and the controller and hardware were maybe another 150. the aftermarket fans available to consumers via the
auto parts houses suck frankly. I've been looking at making a system by fans from EFE which actually cool 20 ton municipal buses! they also have
applications for OTR trucks. so it should not be too hard to make a real system that can work in our rigs. my setup got me over Tehachapi grade
thought it was winter....



jimk wrote on Thu, 13 April 2017 00:37

> Shan,
> Can you give me a call as I would like to confer with you on your system.
> Putting on a load at high ambient temperatures for a long pull will show
> the reliability.
>

[Jim Kanomata]

Tom Pryor sent me the same fan your using.
Have not tried it to gather data. If your using two of them I can see how it will work as long as the power supply is updated.Love to see your unit

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Shan Rose <defc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:54:12 PM

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] YES. An electric fan.

[jast...@fastmail.fm]

The only thing electric fans are good for, IMO, is to supplant the clutch fan in long, hot idle conditions. Even then, it's only to help the a/c
condensor, not the radiator. Such a fan is especially helpful on R134a conversions as they throw a lot more heat at the condensor than R12.
--
Wanting a GMC but must convince the wife first...

[Rob Mueller]

Gentlemen,

With all due respect I am of the opinion that the engineers at GMC knew what
they were doing when they sized the radiator for the GMC.

If both the air and water loops are kept clean permitting the designed air
and water flow rates the cooling provided will suffice even on the hottest
days.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

JimK has shown a system with an electrically operated viscous clutch and a slightly larger and more efficient plastic (actually some esoteric resin
material, probably nylon) fan. It's somewhat lighter than the original, and has a ring around the blade tips to keep the blades from changing shape
at speed.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Shan Rose]

yes they certainly did, but technology has improved greatly over the last 43 years. so now there are other options available. I'll try to get up some
photos of my system, thought I coulda done it this weekend but time totally got away from me and now I have 2 friends from Germany in town...


Shan


USAussie wrote on Sun, 16 April 2017 10:24