[GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition. Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner clicking
above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the
steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped the
solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter solenoid and starter. We good there.

I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot lights
come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter solenoid from that
plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the culprit
because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there is another ignition fuse somewheres?

I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.

Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

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[Charles Boyd via Gmclist]

Sir, above the neutral safety switch with the purple wires toward the steering wheel is the ignition switch. It has 2 screws , loosen a little and
slide switch toward floor and retighten. Could try repositioning tilt column also.





gumboguy wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 21:12

> My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition. Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner clicking
> above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the
> steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped the
> solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter solenoid and starter. We good there.
>
> I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot
> lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter solenoid
> from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the
> culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there is another ignition fuse somewheres?
>
> I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
>
> Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[John Wright via Gmclist]

Might I suggest that you look at this:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-cranking-improve-for-free/p34378-neutral-start-safety-switch-issues.html

J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

What is the battery voltage? need yo be 13+

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

What I am hearing is you do not have +12 volts on the little wire at the starter solenoid when the key is turned to start. Is this true? Also I do
not understand is what two wires you jumpered at the solenoid to get it to crank. Was it the small wire to the big (about 2 ga) + lead going to the
battery?

When you installed the starter on which of the two terminals did you put the little (about 12 ga) wire on. There is a good chance you put it on the
wrong one.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Bruce Hart via Gmclist]

I have also witness that the key was not rotated far enough to engage
starter.

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

12.0V is 70% discharged battery state. 12.66V is fully charged. BIG difference.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

A fully charged lead acid cell @ 70° f. at a s.g. corrected for sea level
in an ideal
state of charge is 2.2 Volts D.C. Multiply that by 6 cells, and you come
up with 13.2 volts. Older batteries that have been in service awhile, won't
measure that high.
But, your charging voltage needs to be higher than that for those
little electrons to replenish those lost through use. So, 12.4 volts is a
low state of charge. Just saying.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

[Bruce Hislop via Gmclist]

So jumping the starter solenoid will crank the engine and the only click you hear comes from up front above the batteries... maybe the combiner. So
that tells use the starter is working but the solenoid is not. Have you checked for solenoid power from the switch at the smaller solenoid terminal?

Also some solenoids have 2 small terminals... the second one was used to power the points ignition system with a full 12v while cranking. If you have
one of these solenoids and connected the cranking power to the wrong terminal, the solenoid will not pull in.

If you have cranking power to the correct terminal, then you must have a faulty starter solenoid.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Bruce Hislop via Gmclist]

You also mention in your title that you have no headlights either, but your have chassis battery voltage.

There is a fusible like that all power to the chassis goes through... including lights and ignition (starter solenoid too). It looks like about a #12
wire going from the chassis Battery Terminal Block on the aluminum plate to the large terminal on the horn relay to the upper right of the terminal
block.

Check that you have power at the horn relay terminal. If you have no voltage there, but you have voltage at the Battery Terminal Block, then the
fusible link wire is open. This is a special fuse wire, so don't replace it with regular wire. Replacements are available at the auto store. Wiring
diagram shows it as being a #16 fusible link wire.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Do the easy first - make sure the solenoid energize wire is on the correct little terminal on the starter ass'y. There are often two, if you have HEI
one is unused. The correct terminal is the one it's almost impossible to get to. BTDT.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

Johnny,

I did the same thing a couple of months back. My "helper" installed the starter and put the wire on the wrong terminal. It took about 30 seconds to
diagnose and about 5 minutes for him to move it. I do not have wheel liners installed so it is easy access.

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thank you. I did try to to move that switch both directions and had no luck. :(. Perhaps that switch has gone bad? We did experience some intermittent
strating trouble before and now nothing.

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thank you. I had already jumped that white plug with the purple wires at the base of the steering column. It didn't make a difference in this case
though. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 May 2020 04:27

> What I am hearing is you do not have +12 volts on the little wire at the starter solenoid when the key is turned to start. Is this true?
>

> Yessir it's true.

>
> Also I do not understand is what two wires you jumpered at the solenoid to get it to crank. Was it the small wire to the big (about 2 ga) + lead
> going to the battery?
>

> Not two wires per se, but the main power cable from the battery to the starter and the smaller ignition wire to the "s" terminal. I crossed them
> with a screwdriver to complete the connection. This is an old school test of any starter while installed.

>
> When you installed the starter on which of the two terminals did you put the little (about 12 ga) wire on. There is a good chance you put it on
> the wrong one.

Since the problem existed before the new starter, we can rule out a bad new starter and using the incorrect terminal on the solenoid. The old starter
has a busted solenoid housing and all the terminals were wiggly to the touch. I took it to the parts store and it didn't test reliably so we just
bought a new one out of an abundance of caution. Thank you very much for the tips!

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

While my dad's meter is fairly old, it's set up for construction work, not automotive so the DC side is a little harder to read with these tick marks
on the sweeper scale not particularly easy to read. Seems like a solid 12 but could easily be 13 too when each tick on the scale does not represent 1
volt at a time. Make sense? And using a full size truck battery with jumper cables would have overcome a lower than 13v host battery on the RV, no?

Thank you for chiming in. :)

quote title=jimk wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 22:02]What is the battery voltage? need yo be 13+

mailto:ji...@appliedairfilters.com

http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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[/quote]

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thank you. Your suggestion really sounds like it hits the nail on the head.

I'm going to search for that fusable link wire and terminal connections. I'm not clear on specifically where you are referring to, however I'm going
to look for it with your description.

Thank you. That really sounds like ed zachary the issue. :)


quote title=RF_Burns wrote on Mon, 25 May 2020 07:29]You also mention in your title that you have no headlights either, but your have chassis battery

voltage.

There is a fusible like that all power to the chassis goes through... including lights and ignition (starter solenoid too). It looks like about a #12
wire going from the chassis Battery Terminal Block on the aluminum plate to the large terminal on the horn relay to the upper right of the terminal
block.

Check that you have power at the horn relay terminal. If you have no voltage there, but you have voltage at the Battery Terminal Block, then the
fusible link wire is open. This is a special fuse wire, so don't replace it with regular wire. Replacements are available at the auto store. Wiring
diagram shows it as being a #16 fusible link wire.

[/quote]

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 24 May 2020 21:27

> So jumping the starter solenoid will crank the engine and the only click you hear comes from up front above the batteries... maybe the combiner.
>

> Pops put a new combiner on, same issue.

>
> So that tells use the starter is working but the solenoid is not.
>

> The solenoid engages, motor spins both on the bench and installed.
>
> Have checked for solenoid power from the switch at the smaller solenoid terminal?
>
> There's no power to the solenoid when the key is turned. Using a screwdriver to bridge the terminals gets the solenoid and starter to engage as
> intended, but the key doesnt.

>
> Also some solenoids have 2 small terminals... the second one was used to power the points ignition system with a full 12v while cranking. If you
> have one of these solenoids and connected the cranking power to the wrong terminal, the solenoid will not pull in.
>

> This issue existed after years of successful operation. Then it failed intermittently and eventually stopped. The starter terminals were all
> connected correctly before the issue started and the terminals are connected correctly otherwise the starter would not crank.

>
> If you have cranking power to the correct terminal, then you must have a faulty starter solenoid.
>

> I faulty solenoid is not at issue here. That would mean that the old starter soloenoid was bad, the new solenoid is bad and that the ignition wire
> going from the key to the terminal on the solenoid is energized when the key is turned. So, no.
>
> Thank you for your assistance.

[Carl Stouffer via Gmclist]

Do what Chuck Boyd suggested, adjust the ignition switch on the lower column below the dash.
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Quick check step. Get in the drivers seat. Tilt the steering wheel all the
way towards the windshield. If it starts, then you have found the problem.
The operating link between the ignition key and the start switch at the
base of the column is out of adjustment, OR, the switch itself has failed.
Easy fix. Readjust, or replace.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

You have been chasing this long enough.

Right now, do not worry if the voltage is 12.2 or 12.8 volts. When you turn the key the solenoid should click. If it is not doing it, then go get a
reliable meter or better yet a 12 volt automotive test light.


https://www.harborfreight.com/612v-circuit-tester-with-5-ft-lead-63603.html?_br_psugg_q=12+volt+tester

Look at the wiring diagram and start diagnosing the problem. Forget adjusting things until you prove with your meter or test light the absence or
presence of +12 volts at the various points along the circuit.

You have already determined the absence of +12 at the solenoid on the small wire. So back up from there until you find the =12 volts.


If you do not have the wiring diagram go to www.bdub.net and download the diagram for your year coach.

http://www.bdub.net/wirediagrams/

You should be able to find this problem with a test light or meter and a diagram in 30 minutes or less. Once you find the failing component we can
find out what is wrong with that component.

I am looking at the diagram right now. It says:

1. the wire on the solenoid is 12 ga. purple and goes to the neutral safety switch.

2. from the neutral safety switch the circuit then goes back on another 12 ga. purple wire goes to the ignition switch.

3. going back from the ignition switch the circuit goes on a red 12 ga. wire to a terminal on the horn relay located under the passenger side hood.
This is the same terminal where the fusible link black 16 ga. wire is located.

4. The circuit then goes through the fusible link wire to the "Battery Pick Up Junction Block" which is 4 to 6 inches away from the horn relay
terminal.

That that is the entire circuit. I do not care if you start at the "Battery Pick Up Junction Block" and work forward or start a the solenoid terminal
and work backwards. Either way should lead you to where the circuit is open / failing.

Keep in mind that you may now have more than one failure because you have been removing plugs and adjusting switches. That is why we say diagnose
first and prove the failure before trying randomly to fix something.

Ken B.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

I adjusted the ignition switch in both directions, no change.

quote title=Carl S. wrote on Tue, 26 May 2020 09:33]Do what Chuck Boyd suggested, adjust the ignition switch on the lower column below the
dash.[/quote]

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thanks. I'm going to look at pulling that switch. It's probably available at a parts store or a day away on order.

Adjusting the switch did help nor did moving the told wheel in either extreme direction.

I've adjusted the switch position on the steering column, tried to tilt the wheel and nothing so perhaps it's in the switch.

Thank you.

quote title=James Hupy wrote on Tue, 26 May 2020 10:07]Quick check step. Get in the drivers seat. Tilt the steering wheel all the

[/quote]

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Still nothing

Headlights do not come on. Amber parking lights do come on however.

I pulled off the ignition switch. With a small screw driver inserted into the unit to simulate the key lever rod, I probed for continuity on the
spring loaded ignition end and that seems to be working fine and switching open closed as designed. I looked for the pin connected to the purple wire
that goes to the safety switch. Switch seems fine. I also metered the jumper I made for safety switch and my jump is making a solid connection.

Where is this "fusable link" I hear about? Where does it live physically? What color, what size is it? I don't see anything that looks special going
between the horn relay and relay and anything else.

Can anyone post a photo of the fuseable link?

Yes I'm getting electricity to what appears to be the horn relay based on the thickness of several positive wires leading to it with two really small
wires of pink and green wires coming out of the rear of the relay.

Now if there was a voltage drop and if the charging voltage wasn't at or over 13 volts, wouldn't that all be negated once a secondary vehicle
connected with jumper cables with KNOWN acceptable voltage to start a similar size truck engine? That eleminates low voltage as a culprit.

If I read correctly, if the fusable link was bad, there would NOT be electricity at the horn relay? Yes? No? There is 12v there.

Thanks again for all your help.

[Bruce Hart via Gmclist]

The fusible link looks like an ordinary wire nothing out of the ordinary.
In this picture look on the left side and middle of photo. You will see a
large diameter red wire that connects to a post with other wires. There is
a small black diameter wire (16ga) that gets lost under the group of wires
to the right. This is your fusible link. It connects to a separate stud
that is part of the horn relay.

www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/combiner-to-diode-isolator/p24994-adding-a-combiner-to-a-stock-diode-isolator.html

Fusible link
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BEL784695?partTypeName=Fusible+Link&keywordInput=gm+fusible+link

Horn relay
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHHR133?partTypeName=Horn+Relay&keywordInput=horn+relay

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thank you for the links to the parts in question. That's a big help and I appreciate it! :)

[/quote]

[Charles Boyd via Gmclist]

Sir, maybe try flipping the dimmer switch and see if that does any stuff for the headlights. The purple wire you have jumped on the neutral safety
switch is the wire coming from the ignition switch and goes to starter. Should be 12v in start position and activate starter. Trace the wires.

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[Bruce Hislop via Gmclist]

I believe you said the parking lights do work, so power is getting through the Fusible Link. Have someone watch the parking lights and then pull ON
the headlights... do the parking lights then go OFF or stay ON. They should stay ON... Otherwise you have a high resistance in the circuit feeding
power from the battery. This could indicate a bad Fusible Link or it could be elsewhere.

Do the same thing again with the starter, watch the parking lights then try the starter, the parking lights should stay ON.

You may still have an issue in the starter circuit, but this eliminates bad battery, fusible link, poor connection to the switch etc.

FYI, the starter solenoid takes a lot of power to pull in, on the order of 30 Amps, which is why the purple wire feeding it is 12ga.

I agree with Ken Burton. Get a meter or a test light and download the wiring diagram and start troubleshooting. Start at the battery and follow the
power until it disappears.

--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[toastedpoboy--- via Gmclist]

Thanks for all the wunnerful ideas!

I metered 12v through the ignition switch and through the safety switch and through my safety switch bypass. When they key is turned momentarily,
there is 12v out the purple wire down the back of the steering column, yet no voltage to the starter wire on the solenoid. Which is not purple at the
starter. It's old and faded and I haven't got a positive color I'd yet. It just doesn't look purple.

I read there is nothing between the safety switch and the starter but a purple #12 wire connecting them. So there should be voltage at the solenoid
pulse momentarily in unison with the turn of the key the way the switches meter out correctly.

There is however a "CY" box in the middle of the pure wire between the safety switch and the starter. What is a "CY" in that location on the wire
diagram? Could that be where the electrical flow is broken? CY=_?

As time permits, I'll keep plugging away. I appreciate your suggestions.

Thanks again!


quote title=RF_Burns wrote on Mon, 25 May 2020 07:29]You also mention in your title that you have no headlights either, but your have chassis battery

voltage.

There is a fusible like that all power to the chassis goes through... including lights and ignition (starter solenoid too). It looks like about a #12
wire going from the chassis Battery Terminal Block on the aluminum plate to the large terminal on the horn relay to the upper right of the terminal
block.

Check that you have power at the horn relay terminal. If you have no voltage there, but you have voltage at the Battery Terminal Block, then the
fusible link wire is open. This is a special fuse wire, so don't replace it with regular wire. Replacements are available at the auto store. Wiring
diagram shows it as being a #16 fusible link wire.

[/quote]