[GMCnet] FiTech EFI looks like the real deal

[Gerald Work]

The FiTech EFI system I ordered for the Clasco came yesterday. It is beautifully machined and comes with what appear to be high quality fittings, hoses and sensors. Everything is integrated into the throttle body - the mass air sensor, throttle position sensor, vacuum sensor stock off the shelf GM injectors and the electronic control unit so the only external sensors are the temp sending unit and the off the shelf Bosch two wire O2 sensor. They even include a band-in-place bung so you can use a simple step drill to position the O2 sensor bung and band it in place. Later you can drive to a muffler shop and have it welded if you wish. The four even sized throttle plates all open at the same time and the fuel is injected through very small holes that ring the top of each throttle plate. They claim this provides better and more even fuel atomization. They say they have now modified the base so it fits properly on our stock manifold without an adapter plate, also. The linkage looks to be the same as our stock Qjet set up without the need for external return springs. All the wiring is included with what appear to be OEM quality connectors. I will report more later but it looks like a really simple and fast install.

The surge tank (they call it “Command Center”) is especially nice looking. It is a single round module (with two different diameters, larger at the top and smaller at the bottom) which houses a high pressure, fully submerged fuel pump to supply the EFI fuel rail, a low pressure input with a float valve that mimics the Qjet float float and valve so you can fill it from your existing mechanical or electric fuel pump, high and low pressure gauges and a vent fitting. There is no return line to the fuel tanks required or suggested, just a vent line that I will T into the fill vent along side the fill tube. The whole thing is small enough that it mounted easily on a stock passenger side radiator bracket on my 77 using a piece of UHMW sheet for noise and vibration dampening. Took about an hour to fabricate the bracket, drill the holes and mount the unit. It sits in the air stream ahead of the radiator but off to the outlet side where it will do little to impede the air flow to either the radiator or to the external, fan assisted transmission oil cooler that I mounted on the outboard side of the radiator side air baffles. It is easy to confirm correct fuel pressure on both the high pressure EFI supply side and the low pressure surge tank fill side just by opening the passenger side hood.

Dick Patterson is off to an industry trade show where hopefully FiTech will have a booth. If so, he will talk to them about any recommended changes to the stock HEI advance system for those who want to let the distributor take care of spark control. The FiTech unit also appears to have spark control functions built in if you want to lock out the mechanical advance and let that unit control spark. I will initially have the stock HEI control spark and then see about moving to the FiTech unit controlling spark once it gets the fuel/air ratio and spark advance maps all filled in from the elevation-load and rpm data gathered during the initial drive-in period.

Dick also suggested adding a push button to let you spin the motor to pull oil up to pressure without starting before using the key to engage the EFI and start the motor after it has been sitting for a long time. He is concerned about oil drain down and bearing wear from the EFI instant start putting full compression load on the main bearings before the oil pump has a chance to bring everything up to full pressure. He characterizes the hard starting of the stock system (to pump fuel into the empty Qjet fuel bowl) as a blessing in disguise. That is easy to do by simply running 12vdc to a push button switch and from there directly to the engage post on the starter solenoid. Pressing the button will spin the starter without powering the HEI or the EFI. Once oil pressure is established then turn the key normally for an instant start with oil already in the bearings. That only would need to be done if the coach has been sitting for a long period of time (weeks or months). For normal daily use just turn the key and go.

It is raining cats and dogs outside today so not sure how eager I am to get out to the RV garage to do the install and initial drive in but will report progress. One last comment is that the packaging is really professionally done. Die cut foam to house everything inside a heavy presentation box which ships inside a shipping box filled with foam peanuts. Full color instructions for both the EFI and the Command Center. Nicely done. If it works as well as it looks it might be a good alternative for us, especially at around half the retail price of the other add-on EFI units available for our coaches. The EFI unit is $995, the Command Center is $395 and shipping was $55.

Jerry
Jerry & Sharon Work
Kerby, OR
glw...@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com

78 Royale with most everything done to modernize a GMC mechanically
77/94 Clasco bone stock (soon to have EFI) and looks like it just left the Clasco facility

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[Bruce Hislop]

Jerry,
the FiTech system looks very neat.

You mentioned it had a built-in Mass Airflow Sensor which got me excited, but on the website it says it has a MAP Sensor.

The Sump Tank looks very interesting. Let us know how it goes with the install!
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

[David Orders]

Jerry - Would you mind if I shared a link to your post on the GMC Facebook page? I was also curious if you planned to use the Fuel Command Center.
That seems like a pretty neat option, since you get a submerged electric fuel pump and no need to run a return line, all for $400. - Dave
--
1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to
us."

[Jim Kanomata]

The MAP sensor is to monitor vacuum, while the Mass Flow is for measuring
the Volume of air.
Mass flow sensors work well in labs where they can stay clean. Does not
take much to collect dirt on the fine wires and create problems.
There is no perfect EFI unit, but we have the best technical support on our
Howell / EBL system as there are several top notch guys available to assist
7 days a week 12-14 hours a day.I can state that our EBL/ Howell kit from
us will increase your mileage by minimum of 1-1 1/2 mpg and more power.
I know not only our system but the others as I have installed and sold them.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Espen Heitmann]

The Fitech is really interesting with a price of only $ 995 + fuel pump, I hope you will post some pictures of it later and tell us how it worls.

Dave it was posted on the FB page a month ago or so.

What is also very interesting is that Holley will have a similar setup for sale next year with identical price.
--
1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Mean Green Machine,
And just sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel
in Norway

[Espen Heitmann]

Here is a link to the tread on FB

https://www.facebook.com/groups/classicgmcmotorhomes/permalink/457271594397383/?comment_id=464724206985455&notif_t=group_comment_reply

[John R. Lebetski]

I'm not getting past the design faux pas of mounting a square bore device on a spread bore Qjet manifold. That is just bad plumbing and in my mind
would negate the gains the system provides. The primary bore would be like a NASCAR restrictor plate to the front barrels, whether they are
progressive or in this case not. Concern would be some rich/ some lean cyls at different throttle openings Other than that the consolidation of
wiring to onboard creates less fail points and that's good.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First

[Espen Heitmann]

But that is why we have the Rockwell manifold, the carb mount is a copy of the Edelbrock performer intake and that is pretty clever, it will only take
a 1/8" thick adapter plate to make it a squarebore intake

JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 10 December 2015 02:49

> I'm not getting past the design faux pas of mounting a square bore device on a spread bore Qjet manifold. That is just bad plumbing and in my mind
> would negate the gains the system provides. The primary bore would be like a NASCAR restrictor plate to the front barrels, whether they are
> progressive or in this case not. Concern would be some rich/ some lean cyls at different throttle openings Other than that the consolidation of
> wiring to onboard creates less fail points and that's good.

--

1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Mean Green Machine,
And just sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel
in Norway

[Bill Van Vlack]

Following with great interest; would like to add EFI to my (new to me) '76 Royale within the next year.

For pre-start oiling, would it make sense to find/add a pressure sensor signal that holds off the ignition, or simply a timer. I imagine the delay
could be programmed into the controller as an option by FiTech.
--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015; Since arrival: New HVAC blower, heat flap cable, headlight switch.

[Norman Allinson]

If you are using the Fitech fuel command center, maybe just a switch in the positive wire to the fuel command center, so that you can spin the engine
with the switch off and switch on when you want it to start? This method would achieve two things - first it would prime the oil system and second the
low pressure fuel pump would top up the command center reservoir.

[Johnny Bridges]

It's heresy to the purists, but at the engine speeds we see, I don't think a squarebore on a quad manifold is going to matter very much. On the
ratrod, it probably would saince it turns up ~~6K at the shift points and it's got a LOT of cam in it. Jheaded 455 at 2400 in my coach, I submit it
won't matter.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[Jim Kanomata]

Fuel injection is no longer about fuel management only like these new
units you all are excited about .
When your not having full ignition timing control with some sophistication,
then your not getting all that is required to produce power and milage.
People like Ken Henderson,Walt Hally, and Randy Van Winkle will back me up
on this.
The Dynamic EFI-EBL Flash System will do more without modification at all,
more than these units you all think is the answer.
Ignition timing is where majority of the power and economy is, not so much
on fuel delivery.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Bill Van Vlack]

I believe the FiTech unit has timing control.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015; Since arrival: New HVAC blower, heat flap cable, headlight switch.

[Espen Heitmann]

Nah I think you are wrong Jim, The Dynamic EFI-EBL system will hardly do more that benefit the GMC owner, I suggest that you read the manual of the
Fithec system, all in all it is cheaper, more user friendly and most important self learning.

jimk wrote on Sun, 13 December 2015 01:35

> Fuel injection is no longer about fuel management only like these new
> units you all are excited about .
> When your not having full ignition timing control with some sophistication,
> then your not getting all that is required to produce power and milage.
> People like Ken Henderson,Walt Hally, and Randy Van Winkle will back me up
> on this.
> The Dynamic EFI-EBL Flash System will do more without modification at all,
> more than these units you all think is the answer.
> Ignition timing is where majority of the power and economy is, not so much
> on fuel delivery.
>

> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Norman Allinson wrote:
>
> > If you are using the Fitech fuel command center, maybe just a switch in
> > the positive wire to the fuel command center, so that you can spin the
> > engine
> > with the switch off and switch on when you want it to start? This method
> > would achieve two things - first it would prime the oil system and second
> > the
> > low pressure fuel pump would top up the command center reservoir.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> ji...@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Mean Green Machine,
And just sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel
in Norway

[Ken Henderson]

The devil is in the details, which I haven't seen for the FiTech unit. Has
anyone? For example, what does "learning" mean regarding both fuel and
spark.

EBL learns only the fuel (Volumetric Efficiency, VE) tables, during closed
loop operation, so that during open loop it can guess at the correct fuel
flow for then-current conditions. While it can be set to save that
information for later easy updating of the pre-programmed VE tables by an
operator, it does not automatically do so. What does FiTech do?

EBL does no spark learning. It can optionally store data which an an
operator can use, judgmentally, to modify the pre-programmed timing curve.
Dynamically, it merely retards spark when the settings prescribed by that
curve cause spark knocks detected by the spark sensor. What does FiTech
do? Will it adjust spark upward and/or downward to achieve optimal
timing? Does it permanently store that curve permanently?

After 50 years of considering heat and vibration, as the biggest enemies of
electronics, I'm skeptical about subjecting the ECU to the worst conditions
in the vehicle. But then, I'm old, pore, decrepit, out of a job, and out
of touch with the latest technology; maybe they now like it there. :-)

I would definitely like to get rid of the nightmare rat's nest of a wiring
harness.

Ken H.


On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 2:08 AM, Bill Van Vlack <bill.va...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I believe the FiTech unit has timing control.
> --
>

[Robert Mueller]

OK,

Looks like we need someone who knows enough about EFI to call FiTech and ask all the right questions.

I've read the blurb and it "sounds" like their systems are "all singing, all dancing" but that could be bullshit!

I would be happy to do it but I don't know shit from shineola when it comes to EFI.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson

The devil is in the details, which I haven't seen for the FiTech unit. Has
anyone? For example, what does "learning" mean regarding both fuel and
spark.

EBL learns only the fuel (Volumetric Efficiency, VE) tables, during closed
loop operation, so that during open loop it can guess at the correct fuel
flow for then-current conditions. While it can be set to save that
information for later easy updating of the pre-programmed VE tables by an
operator, it does not automatically do so. What does FiTech do?

EBL does no spark learning. It can optionally store data which an an
operator can use, judgmentally, to modify the pre-programmed timing curve.
Dynamically, it merely retards spark when the settings prescribed by that
curve cause spark knocks detected by the spark sensor. What does FiTech
do? Will it adjust spark upward and/or downward to achieve optimal
timing? Does it permanently store that curve permanently?

After 50 years of considering heat and vibration, as the biggest enemies of
electronics, I'm skeptical about subjecting the ECU to the worst conditions
in the vehicle. But then, I'm old, pore, decrepit, out of a job, and out
of touch with the latest technology; maybe they now like it there. :-)

I would definitely like to get rid of the nightmare rat's nest of a wiring
harness.

Ken H.

[Gerald Work]

You are correct, Norman. That fuel command center really provides a bunch of advantages and gives several options for making the install easier. It also makes it really easy to do the install so you can quickly convert back to a carb in about a half hour if something goes wrong with the system while you are out in the boonies. I will post the long email I sent to a friend who is interested in doing this conversion. That may help shed light on a number of items.

As I detail in that email I plan to eliminate the fuel selector valve, the electric boost pump and the mechanical fuel pump by adding an electric fuel pump to the line directly from each tank with a single pole, double throw, center off toggle switch on the dash powered through an oil pressure switch. That will provide a redundant fuel supply system, a theft deterrent with the toggle switch in the center off position and will limit the amount of fuel in the event of a wreck or rupture to just what is in the command center surge tank. Either pump will draw from both tanks up to around 35 to 40 gallons or more regardless of how much fuel transfer there is from up and down hill driving. I never want to go any further than that between fill ups anyway so that will work well for me. The existing dash mounted fuel tank selector switch will still serve to select which tank you want the fuel gauge to read.

It is snowing today so I can’t do the initial learning drive but the start up in the garage was straight forward. The coach burbled and ran rough at first but began to smooth out once the water temp got to 130 degrees F where the self learning process begins. After a few minutes of idle and a couple of stop/start cycles it was significantly better. The nice thing is there was none of that acrid unburned fuel smell that was always present on a carb cold start.

The hand held controller used to input engine parameters (no laptop or software required) is a bright, full color, touch screen device with a setting to continuously show a number of parameters real time. I will mount it on the dash with velcro and set it to read water temp, and air/fuel ratio. My manifold only has one water temp sender port so the dash water temp gauge is no longer is active without doing some additional plumbing. So far, so good.

Jerry
Jerry & Sharon Work
Kerby, OR
glw...@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com

78 Royale with most everything done to modernize a GMC mechanically

77/94 Clasco bone stock except for EFI and looks like it just left the Clasco facility
Both drive equally as well.

==================
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:44:59 -0700
From: Norman Allinson <nor...@shaw.ca>
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] FiTech EFI looks like the real deal
Message-ID: <47459.5...@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

If you are using the Fitech fuel command center, maybe just a switch in the positive wire to the fuel command center, so that you can spin the engine
with the switch off and switch on when you want it to start? This method would achieve two things - first it would prime the oil system and second the
low pressure fuel pump would top up the command center reservoir.

==================

[Gerald Work]

Hi Jim,

The good news is it is no longer an either/or situation when it comes to spark control. The FiTech unit (and maybe others of the new generation of self learning EFIs as well) has spark control built into the ECU so you have the choice of how you want to control ignition. I like to do one thing at a time so will use the HEI for spark control initially and then add ECU spark control as a separate step. I think the Howell system with EBL and a well sorted out set of spark tables customized for our GMCs flashed onto a memory chip has a larger matrix than the FiTech unit so should be able to provide finer control over advance under more and varied conditions if that is important to the user, but either device can provide ECU controlled spark advance. Good news for all of us I am sure you will agree.

Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR

glw...@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
=================
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 16:35:37 -0800
From: Jim Kanomata <jimka...@gmail.com>

To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] FiTech EFI looks like the real deal
Message-ID:

<CAMAjevVEkVJqoymc8JtOG+Ha...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Fuel injection is no longer about fuel management only like these new
units you all are excited about .
When your not having full ignition timing control with some sophistication,
then your not getting all that is required to produce power and milage.
People like Ken Henderson,Walt Hally, and Randy Van Winkle will back me up
on this.
The Dynamic EFI-EBL Flash System will do more without modification at all,
more than these units you all think is the answer.
Ignition timing is where majority of the power and economy is, not so much
on fuel delivery.

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Norman Allinson <nor...@shaw.ca> wrote:

> If you are using the Fitech fuel command center, maybe just a switch in
> the positive wire to the fuel command center, so that you can spin the
> engine
> with the switch off and switch on when you want it to start? This method
> would achieve two things - first it would prime the oil system and second
> the
> low pressure fuel pump would top up the command center reservoir.
>

> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

================

[Gerald Work]

Some installation notes - taken from an email I sent a friend who is interested in doing this. I have not yet edited, culled or posted the photos on the GMC photo site, they were in the initial email. I plan to do a proper write up with embedded photos when I get a chance, but these notes may be helpful to you even without the photos:

The EFI install was easy once all the small items were at hand. I built a bracket from UHMW so the surge tank (FiTech calls it a “Fuel Command Center”) could bolt to an existing bracket that runs along the PS of the radiator. This puts it in the air stream in front of the radiator and off to the outlet side where it does little to disrupt the flow of air but should keep the fuel cool even in very hot weather. This unit is what makes this whole system work well and offers a bunch of benefits for our GMC application.

1) you can feed fuel from the tanks to this unit using the stock mechanical and/or electric fuel pump(s) since it has a float valve that mimics the stock Qjet float valve. I simply unscrewed the line from the mechanical pump to the carb, added a reverse flair union and screwed on a piece of hose to go from there to this unit. Didn’t touch anything else on the stock system so if this ever fails on the road I can unscrew the original line from that flair union and it will screw right back into the nose fitting on the carb. Unplug a couple of wire harness connectors and replace the throttle body with the carb and you are right back in business. Likely less than 1/2 hour on the side of the road to revert back to the carb if necessary.

2) When I first fired up the system the high pressure gauge was rock steady at the desired 58 psi but the input low pressure gauge fluctuated wildly due to the pulsing of the mechanical fuel pump. I never realized just how wildly that thing was pulsing fuel to the carb needle valve! What I plan to do soon is to do away with that whole mess of fuel tank selector valve, push pump to get fuel to the mechanical pump in the event of a vapor lock and the mechanical pump. In place of that I will put two small low pressure pumps (like a carter 60504), one on each tank with a check valve ahead of each pump (something like a Bosch 1587010539) and then T these together going forward using the existing lines that feed the Command Center (or the carb if needed). I will power those two pumps with a single pole, double throw, center off toggle switch with power flowing through an oil pressure switch (Holley 12-810). The existing dash tank switch will still select the tank which the gauge monitors but the separate toggle switch will select which tank is actually in use supplying fuel to the Command Center (or the carb). The center off position on the toggle switch is then a theft deterrent. The oil pressure switch on the pumps feeding the Command Center will shut those pumps off if the engine dies or is turned off. The only fuel available to feed a fire would be the fuel in the Command Center and then only if a) the key on power wire remains hot and b) the line from the Command Center to the throttle body is ruptured. There is enough fuel in the Command Center to allow the engine to start and reach oil pressure which will start the fuel pump supplying the Command Center so it all should be quite fool proof and feature a running redundant system that will work equally well with the EFi or the carb. Total cost around $150. The two pumps are about $45 each, the check valves $15 each and the oil pressure switch is less than $30.

The only time waister I experienced was not being able to get the supplied barb fittings onto the supplied Russel hose. I instead used an EFI hose from NAPA designed for all fuels including E85. Warming the ends of the hose with a heat gun softened that hose enough that with some WD40 as a lube the barb fittings went on with little issue. I made up three hoses and can supply the lengths and which fittings went where if you were to mount the Command Center in the same place and also used the Jim Bounds flex line from the mechanical fuel pump to the carb or something similar. Otherwise it is easy to figure out hoses once you have mounted the Command Center especially if you don’t care about the easy conversion back to a carb.

The other time waister was figuring out which adapter plate to use (I ultimately selected one from NAPA) and finding the right fittings to convert the EFI throttle linkage to the GMC throttle cable. The pics show the numbers for the bushing kit and stud kit that made that work. The lower part of the EFI throttle linkage had to be cut off with a hack saw to it would not hang up on our lowered intake manifold.

Other than those two things the rest of the install is very simple. The throttle body bolts right onto the adapter plate which is necessary to allow the butterfly valves to open fully without hanging up on the spread bore on the top of the intake manifold. The one I used raised the top of the throttle body up about 1/2” higher than the carb. The linkage (with the bushing and stud kits) lined up properly with the stock throttle cable and stock throttle cable mount. It is necessary to cut that stock throttle cable mount piece in half and use only one mounting bolt because of things on the back of the throttle body would would otherwise prevent that mount from being used. I will keep the cut off piece in my bag of “convert back to carb” parts if I ever need to do that. With only one mounting hole that mount can rotate unless you cut a tab to fit into the other mounting hole on the throttle body (shown in the pics).

I used a stop drill to drill the required 7/8” hole for the O2 sensor in a flat run on the exhaust pipe on one or the other side. All they say is it must be more than 15 degrees above horizontal to prevent condensation. The Clasco is running stock cast iron exhaust manifolds so the easiest one to get to was the passenger side as shown in the pics. The included band in place bung is slick and saves a trip to a muffler shop to weld it in place until you want to. As long as it does not leak I will continue to use the band in place unit.

The wiring is straight forward and the harnesses well marked. One harness plugs into the O2 sensor. One plugs into the water temp sensor. One plugs into the hand held control unit and the other is a six wire connector where one wire goes to 12vdc always on, one is key on (I used the electric choke wire to maintain that easy to revert back to carb status), one tees into the HEI distributor Tach port, one goes to the Command Center pump and one goes from the Command Center to ground. The other wires only are used if you want to control electric fans or have the ECU also control spark.

Start up is easy. Fill the Command Center before feeding 12vdc to the Command Center pump. Once the Command Center is full, then pulse the high pressure pump several times to get air out of the system. Turn the key on and use the hand held controller to enter a few engine parameters. On initial start the engine will run rough while it warms up. Once at 130 degrees water temp it begins to self learn and the engine will slowly start running more smoothly. As you drive the EFI tunes itself to find optimum settings for your load and driving style conditions. I have not yet done the drive in but can tell you that just running in the garage there is FAR less of the unburned fuel smells than I had with cold start on the carb.

The hand held controller is a bright, full color, touch screen unit that can be set to display a number of parameters real time while you are driving. I have it set to show RPM, air/fuel ratio and water temp until I have more experience with the system. BTW, my intake manifold had only one water temp sender port so the hand held display is the only way I now have of monitoring water temp. My guess is this is way more precise than the first generation Mac dash gauges in the Clasco. I am still working on finding the best place to mount that hand held unit in or around the dash. It is small enough that it should not be an issue. The only small irk is that the connecting wires plug into the top of the unit instead of the bottom making it just a bit more awkward to find a good spot.

I wanted to continue to use the stock HEI air cleaner so needed to do some testing and modification on the under side of the engine hatch cover to allow it to fit. I used Play Dough to test the clearance and a router to modify the under side of the hatch. I added foam weather stripping to the under side of the hatch and the upper side of the aluminum angle the hatch sits on to raise it enough to clear. I will run this way for a while to see how it works over the long haul. Further modifications for more clearance or more sound deadening may be required in the future. Time will tell.

Hope this helps. Let me know if I can offer anything else.

Jerry

Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR

glw...@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com

_______________________________________________

[Norman Allinson]

I have a real interest in this Jerry as I received my FiTech unit with Command centre last week, and like you, I was very impressed with the quality.
I have just one 65 gallon tank, and an electric pump with oil pressure switch, so my plumbing will be a little less complicated.
I live in Calgary and have no garage for the GMC so it's unlikely I'll be able to do the install before the Spring; I'll be drooling over the FiTech
boxes for the next few months and awaiting your posts with anticipation.

[Matt Colie]

Bill Van Vlack wrote on Sun, 13 December 2015 02:08

> I believe the FiTech unit has timing control.

Bill,

I just came from reading everything that FiTech has published. Yes, the unit can provide "Timing Control", but it is rudimentary and really nothing
you cannot get with a mechanical distributor with a vacuum pot. It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or fast enough to
do real stoichiometric control as the new cat systems need to pass. The primary reason these units need the connection to the distributor is for the
crank speed signal. They are doing only doing a three by three control matrix. The 7747 (iirc) is eight by eight. It seems its total control is as
a basic S/D (or R/D Speed or Rev/Density - shop dependent) system with minimal trim from the O2 sensor.

The lack of a knock sensor is, to me at least, a big loss. Closed loop timing control is a huge advantage for effective operation in changing
conditions. It would be my primary reason to go to EFI.

If you are going to put one of these in a rat-rod or resto-rod that goes maybe 5000 miles a year, and never goes where it is too hot or out in the
salt covered slush, it may be good for a long time. But, lets look at all of this.

It is understandable that KenH might be apprehensive about putting all that in the engine space. The only part I don't share is the concern he has
that so much control can be done in a small package. But then, Ken is only about five miles ahead of the general population in his understanding and
experience. All I can say, is look at your phone. The space shuttles flew their career with a Motorola 6502 processors running a 1MHz. That is what
Ford used (a dedicated version of the 6502) until about 1995. But look at your smart phone. Mine is old an nothing great and it is a dual core 2Ghz
processor. And, you can buy a chip-on-a-board that will do amazing things. That does not mean it will be successful.

Ken's thought about heat and vibration is interesting because I very much doubt that these devices will pass any of the MIL-spec certifications, but I
can assure you as an Ex-Aftermarket guy that they don't care. If the unit fails in service, they will ship you parts to replace at your own expense
and keep this up unit the warranty runs out. I very much doubt that they would complete the vehicle validations that I did in the late 90s. Just
looking at them makes me sure of this.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Ken Henderson]

Ooops! I forgot to trim Jerry's text, making my message too long, go this
got rejected for size. This trimmed and forwarded, probably losing its
attachment to the mailing list thread.

KH

Jerry,

Great write up, as usual.

Imagine my surprise when I found just now that you're not a member of our
GMCMH-EFI Google Group! I sent you an invitation. Please join us.

At some point we need to make sure this thread gets echoed to the EFI group
since that's the primary focal point for the minority of us with an
interest in EFI. When you visit there, you'll see what I mean.

Ken H.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Gerald Work <glw...@mac.com> wrote:

> Some installation notes - taken from an email I sent a friend who is
> interested in doing this. I have not yet edited, culled or posted the
> photos on the GMC photo site, they were in the initial email. I plan to do
> a proper write up with embedded photos when I get a chance, but these notes
> may be helpful to you even without the photos:

> ​...

[jhb1]

Hi Ken
If you are worried about heat and vibration what about all the new FADEC controlled engines on most current generation jets. You get both heat cold
and vibration all the time.


Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 13 December 2015 07:23

> The devil is in the details, which I haven't seen for the FiTech unit. Has
> anyone? For example, what does "learning" mean regarding both fuel and
> spark.
>
>

> "snip"

> After 50 years of considering heat and vibration, as the biggest enemies of
> electronics, I'm skeptical about subjecting the ECU to the worst conditions
> in the vehicle. But then, I'm old, pore, decrepit, out of a job, and out

> of touch with the latest technology; maybe they now like it there. :)

>
> I would definitely like to get rid of the nightmare rat's nest of a wiring
> harness.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 2:08 AM, Bill Van Vlack

> wrote:
>
> > I believe the FiTech unit has timing control.
> > --
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
John H. Bell
77 Royale
Montreal Qc.

[Bill Van Vlack]

Matt,
Just some questions, based on my understanding of fuel and spark control.... I've played around a little with a Bosch L3 with a companion 'EZK' for
spark and an aftermarket product that allows off-line remapping using a WBO2, so I know enough to be dangerous.

Quote:

> I just came from reading everything that FiTech has published. Yes, the unit can provide "Timing Control", but it is rudimentary and really
> nothing you cannot get with a mechanical distributor with a vacuum pot.

It looks like you can set the advance for six break points on the curve, plus idle. Is that possible with a mechanical distributor? Maybe it's not
necessary since the stock dist. is perfect for the engine and why bother messing with it. (If this displays my ignorance, just give me a hint - I'd be
happy to be educated but no need to waste your time here.)

Quote:

> It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or fast enough to do real stoichiometric control as the new cat systems need to
> pass. The primary reason these units need the connection to the distributor is for the crank speed signal. They are doing only doing a three by
> three control matrix. The 7747 (iirc) is eight by eight. It seems its total control is as a basic S/D (or R/D Speed or Rev/Density - shop dependent)
> system with minimal trim from the O2 sensor.

GMCs don't have cats, and I wonder if many of the cars that this is marketed to would have them. But I'm curious what sensor is needed for accurate
and fast stoich control? The LH uses a narrowband sensor for this, and with the aftermarket tuning device you can adjust them to where the car can
pass CA Emissions without a cat installed.

Quote:

> The lack of a knock sensor is, to me at least, a big loss. Closed loop timing control is a huge advantage for effective operation in changing
> conditions. It would be my primary reason to go to EFI.

[/quote]

This (knock control) is a big one for me, too. Adjust it wrong and buy a new engine. The LH senses a knock and pulls out timing (for that cell of a
(10x10?) matrix, then adds some of it back slowly.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015; Since arrival: New HVAC blower, heat flap cable, headlight switch.

[Ken Henderson]

John,

While I certainly admit that I haven't stayed abreast of electronics
development over the past few years -- hardly even this century, in fact
-- I suspect that the aircraft rated equipment meets a lot tighter design
and construction specs than any automotive aftermarket device. And knowing
nothing about the application you mention, I don't know what kind of
ambient conditions are controlled. But I do know a little about GMC engine
compartment conditions -- they AIN'T good! :-) ESPECIALLY if some puts
electronics on top of a manifold with an unblocked crossover. :-(

It's doubful that I'll swap out the already installed Howell/EBL system,
but I do think everyone considering any of these new fangled integrated
systems should understand that the "bleading edge" is not always as much
fun as it appears.

Ken H.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, jhb1 <jhb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ken
> If you are worried about heat and vibration what about all the new FADEC
> controlled engines on most current generation jets. You get both heat cold
> and vibration all the time.
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 13 December 2015 07:23

> > "snip"
> > After 50 years of considering heat and vibration, as the biggest enemies
> of
> > electronics, I'm skeptical about subjecting the ECU to the worst
> conditions
> > in the vehicle. But then, I'm old, pore, decrepit, out of a job, and out
> > of touch with the latest technology; maybe they now like it there. :)
> >
> > I would definitely like to get rid of the nightmare rat's nest of a
> wiring
> > harness.
>

[jhb1]

Ken

The Fadec's that I was referring to are installed here at Rolls-Royce where I work. On the AE3007 Allison and as they are an expensive item they use
slave units to test the engines here. So I can tell you they survive hot cold and vibration environments just fine. They have been testing another
type of engine here recently and have had to subject it to a wide range of temps from if you touch it you are going to burn your fingers to well below
-60f. I am just looking for something to replace my old steam powered Air Sensors (mass airflow) system, and looking at all my options.

--
John H. Bell
77 Royale
Montreal Qc.

[Ken Henderson]

John,

And they have no air/water/etc coolant circulating through them? Amazing.
Especially when one considers that unlike conductors, whose resistance
increases with temperature at an essentially linear rate, the
semiconductors at the heart of all modern electronics, have conductivity
which increases at an EXPONENTIAL rate -- in other words, they're VERY
temperature sensitive. There are design tricks to have those
characteristics counteract each other, but they were, in my day, limited in
the range of their effectiveness. I'm impressed, and not surprised that
they're expensive. :-)

I hope the lessons learned in the development of those adverse environment
devices spills over into the consumer market.

Ken H.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:21 PM, jhb1 <jhb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ken
>
> The Fadec's that I was referring to are installed here at Rolls-Royce
> where I work. On the AE3007 Allison and as they are an expensive item they
> use
> slave units to test the engines here. So I can tell you they survive hot
> cold and vibration environments just fine. They have been testing another
> type of engine here recently and have had to subject it to a wide range of
> temps from if you touch it you are going to burn your fingers to well below
> -60f. I am just looking for something to replace my old steam powered Air
> Sensors (mass airflow) system, and looking at all my options.
> --
>

[Jim Kanomata]

I have had 2 customers that Have the MSD EFI unit similar to these new
units that went bad and I had to send them in for warrenty.Took one week
for customer to get back, plus I had to pay freight for my customer.
If they were our Howell/ EBL units I could have sent them new parts under
our 2 year warranty n/c or have Randy V , or Walt H contact them to do
trouble shoot 7days a week, 12 hours a day.
About 90% of pars are available at automotive parts stores as most are GM
related current parts. Anything electrical can have problems.
I'm sure we will find out more about these units and like everything , the
choice is up to the buyer.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Ken Henderson <hend...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Robert Mueller]

G'day,

I was a field service rep for Hamilton Standard and was trained on the operation of electronic engine controls for military and
civilian aircraft.

The first units were built and installed on military aircraft (the F-16 being one of them). When they proved to be reliable the
technology was transferred to commercial aircraft.

The first series were called Supervisory Electronic Engine Controls and installed on the P&W JT9D-7R4.Those engines had a hydro
mechanical fuel control and the SEEC would "fine tune" the fuel flow using electronic sensors and a computer. If it failed the hydro
mechanical unit (JFC 68-7) ran the engine just fine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_JT9D

http://www.pw.utc.com/JT9D_Engine

When the SEEC controls proved to be reliable The PW2000 engine entered revenue service in 1984 as the first commercial engine
equipped with FADEC (Full-Authority Digital Electronic Control) technology. They did not have a hydro mechanical fuel control the
FADEC controlled a "valve" that fed fuel to the engine.

As far as cooling goes it was not necessary as the FADEC's were bolted to the fan case (it's the box that has all the Cannon plugs
hooked up to it. Note that there are fins on it as well. Oh yeah, they had shock mounts to reduce induced vibrations.

Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/pne53wvv

Full URL:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=PW+4000&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=681&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6orOVmdvJAhXl3KYKHfR0BdgQ_A
UIBigB&dpr=1#imgdii=mN6yRBkhfGFO2M%3A%3BmN6yRBkhfGFO2M%3A%3B7exgPn5i22Yp1M%3A&imgrc=mN6yRBkhfGFO2M%3A

All Electronic Engine Controls were subjected to "shake and bake" as part of the pre-delivery acceptance tests which were conducted
on new and repaired units. The units were tested while mounted on vibration tables that exceeded the vibration levels they would
encounter when mounted on the engine. The units were tested when placed in ovens that exceeded the temperature levels they would see
when mounted on the engine.

These units are highly reliable. If my memory serves me correctly the MTBF was around 60,000 hours. That means they would operate
SIXTY THOUSAND HOURS BEFORE FAILING.

I'm sorry of anybody gets insulted or hurt but comparing automotive electronic fuel injection to aircraft full authority digital
engine controls won't fly in my book! Pun intended!

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

PS - All the BS above is from memory and one must keep in mind I've been retired from HS since 2001!

[MIGUEL MENDEZ]

Well, I just want to chime in on this, 78 MSD units running now, 5 fast units, 4 Howell units, and not one problem with any of them, as for heat, the
very 1st one I installed, of the MSD units is still going strong, not one hickup, no heat problems so far, and for those of you who know S California,
it gets DAMN hot here for long periods.

I DO NOT SELL FI SYSTEMS, never have never will, that is Jim K's job, I just tell customers to call jim and purchase it from him, most of my customers
already know what they want,I never say one is better than the other, as the saying goes, the product speaks for itself, I did once have to call MSD
for customer tech service, never waited more that 5 mins to get through and the fix was stupid simple, noise module in a Dist which kept priming the
motor and would flood it, so, simple fix, replace the mod and ran fine.

I can say, maybe 2 years ago, A customer was towed in, Howell system, I was told I can take the GMC to any GM Dealer and they will hook it up and they
can fix it, so off we went, not one single dealer would bother saying, we will not touch that thing, boo hoo, so, I called Jim, he helped out a lot
but we just could not figure it out, finally, I found a green wire that had broken off at the dist and hooked it up, it ran just fine after that,
stupid simple fix, but that is what happens sometimes, the FI systems today are well thought out, but, I only got one of the 78 msd units running the
timing control, and that customer say, I wish I had not spent the extra on the timing control, I just do not notice anything different, oh well, it is
what it is.

This is my opinion and only an opinion, you get what you like, and if your near me, I'll do the unstall for you if you like.

Thanks for your time
--
Miguel

1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, side bath w/ a 403 that i love.

GMC name : The other woman


http://www.mgmgmc.com

[Robert Mueller]

Miguel,

I'm confused what does this mean?

"I can say, maybe 2 years ago, A customer was towed in, Howell system, I was told I can take the GMC to any GM Dealer and they will
hook it up and they can fix it, so off we went, not one single dealer would bother saying, we will not touch that thing, boo hoo,"

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

[Terry]

Rob, I'm sure Miguel just missed putting a comma after the word "bother". Sentence makes sense if you install that comma :)
--
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.

[Matt Colie]

Bill,
This is going to be rough to follow, but I will try to make it clear.
Bill Van Vlack wrote on Sun, 13 December 2015 15:35

> Matt,
> Just some questions, based on my understanding of fuel and spark control.... I've played around a little with a Bosch L3 with a companion 'EZK'
> for spark and an aftermarket product that allows off-line remapping using a WBO2, so I know enough to be dangerous.

> At least, you are honest enough to admit this.

>
> Quote:
> > I just came from reading everything that FiTech has published. Yes, the unit can provide "Timing Control", but it is rudimentary and really
> > nothing you cannot get with a mechanical distributor with a vacuum pot.
>
> It looks like you can set the advance for six break points on the curve, plus idle. Is that possible with a mechanical distributor? Maybe it's not
> necessary since the stock dist. is perfect for the engine and why bother messing with it. (If this displays my ignorance, just give me a hint - I'd
> be happy to be educated but no need to waste your time here.)

> I never saw a "Stock"(meaning production part) that was perfect for any engine. Particularly QC in the 70s, made that most unlikely. This is why
> we need Dick Paterson so much.
> The capability of curve development in an mechanical/vacuum distributor is something very few understand. The combinations springs - with and
> without slip to move the threshold, different weights and weigh curves (where the round part of the weight works on the arm) can be contrived to do
> some amazing things. It is very possible that the 3X3 matrix can duplicate or even possibly improve on the timing of a mechanical/vacuum control.
> But, after decades of collection spark/fuel loop data, I would not even be interested in "slight" improvements. I did tests (years ago) during
> which we ran the same iron in the same vehicle with several different engine controls for evaluation. The big change came with adaptive and
> learning timing control.

>
> Quote:
> > It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or fast enough to do real stoichiometric control as the new cat systems need
> > to pass. The primary reason these units need the connection to the distributor is for the crank speed signal. They are doing only doing a three by
> > three control matrix. The 7747 (iirc) is eight by eight. It seems its total control is as a basic S/D (or R/D Speed or Rev/Density - shop
> > dependent) system with minimal trim from the O2 sensor.
>
> GMCs don't have cats, and I wonder if many of the cars that this is marketed to would have them. But I'm curious what sensor is needed for
> accurate and fast stoich control? The LH uses a narrowband sensor for this, and with the aftermarket tuning device you can adjust them to where the
> car can pass CA Emissions without a cat installed.

> The catalyst inlet is really not the issue to us, but the control capability is. This is particularly true in changing intake conditions. The
> mixture quality and pressure before ignition can affect the burn rate and therefore the effective timing. Detroit does have "altitude" test cells
> (not many) just so this can be verified. They run fewer now, as computer simulations can use old test data to simulate these conditions.

>
> Quote:
> > The lack of a knock sensor is, to me at least, a big loss. Closed loop timing control is a huge advantage for effective operation in changing
> > conditions. It would be my primary reason to go to EFI.
>

> This (knock control) is a big one for me, too. Adjust it wrong and buy a new engine. The LH senses a knock and pulls out timing (for that cell of
> a (10x10?) matrix, then adds some of it back slowly.

> Timing control had been a big issue that grew exponentially with the inclusions of any kind or boosted manifold pressure. But, a Emery clearly
> pointed out some years back, just going in and out of mountains can be enough to make it worth your while.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[gene Fisher]

Hi miguel
Was wondering where you were!
I am an atomic ( MSD) user, installer
- I own 3 GMCs with Tbi
-http://gmc49ers.blogspot.com/2014/12/my-atomic-1973-23.html
- 2 old Howell systems
-- worst injectors ever made ( says witch hunter)
-- 40 year old computer -no longer made

-1 atomic conversion
-- all new
-- plug n play

I am no expert,
Just want to drive the gmc

Do what you will

On Monday, December 14, 2015, MIGUEL MENDEZ <mok...@hotmail.com

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[James Hupy]

Well, here is some more crap for the fan. I cut my teeth on fuel injection
back in the 1960's. Rochester fuel injection as fitted to small block
Chevrolet and Pontiac. Adapted the units to racing. Not the most reliable
system, but way better than a carb, or 3 carbs, or 6 carbs. Absolutely no
electronic crap. Pure mechanical system. After a couple of racing seasons,
scrapped the Rochester for a Stu Hilborn system. Another purely mechanical
system. Bypass fuel metering system, No idle circuit. Boy, when dialed in
right, that system would HONK. Separate air intake for each cylinder,
separate injector for each cylinder, EQUAL LENGTH intake runners. Except
for the cylinder head design. NO ELECTRONIC CONTROLS. I got married, had a
child, walked away from racing with a promise to my wife not to return.
Went to VW/Porshe/Audi school. Learned about the Bosch Jetronic FI as used
on VW fastbacks and Squarebacks. Not an ideal system either. Then came
Bosch CIS. Another pure mechanical system, no electronics. Damn fine unit.
Keep the fuel clean and fresh, and the lines and filters clean, no drama.
Same system was used on Pugeot, Volvo, Saab, several other makes. SLOWLY
BOSCH integrated electronic controls to the system. Given the state of
reliability of electronic devices of the era, they were O.K. All of these
systems injected finely atomized fuel ahead of the intake valve with a
separate injector for each cylinder, and some attempt at equal length inlet
passages. Then emission controls reared it's Medusa heads. Nothing has been
the same since then.
I will say this. Throttle body systems, no matter how well they are
controlled, are not that much better than a quadrajet carb. Add spark
control to a q-jet, and it is closer still. Until we go to a different
intake manifold design with equal length intake runners and individual
injectors for each cylinder with EGT sensors on each exhaust, we will not
see an improvement in economy or performance. My story, and I am stickin'
to it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

[Pete Smith]

Any improvement in reliability or in coping with big altitude changes?


Pete

"Until we go to a different
intake manifold design with equal length intake runners and individual
injectors for each cylinder with EGT sensors on each exhaust, we will not
see an improvement in economy or performance. My story, and I am stickin'
to it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403"

--
Cary, NC

No Coach yet but decided it will be wet bath with Sully or 4 bag system.
perhaps a 1978 Kingsley....

[Bill Van Vlack]

Hi Matt,
Just to confirm my understanding....

Quote:
> It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or fast enough to do real stoichiometric control

1. I understand that the Howell system uses a WB02 for fuel control; what am I missing here?

2. It seems only the Howell/EBL system can do knock control (if you mount the sensor on the motor mount as I understand from the EFI board). To me,
that seems like a good reason to choose it over any of the others.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015; Since arrival: New HVAC blower, heat flap cable, headlight switch.

[Matt Colie]

Bill Van Vlack wrote on Mon, 14 December 2015 13:18
> Hi Matt,
> You were very clear, thank you, but a couple questions to confirm my understanding (and manage the danger coefficient)....

> Quote:
> > It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or fast enough to do real stoichiometric control
>
>
> 1. I understand that the Howell system uses a WB02 for fuel control; what am I missing here?
>
> 2. It seems only the Howell/EBL system can do knock control (if you mount the sensor on the motor mount as I understand from the EFI board). To
> me, that seems like a good reason to choose it over any of the others.

Bill,

You are missing nothing.
A WBO2 might be used for initial control and it can beat the hell out of nothing. It will not detect a lean or rich cylinder. This is why a number
of V-8 engines have "stereo egos" they actually map the charge distribution. The reason for the WB to exist at all is as a control for the catalyst
age. That is why the WB is always late in the exhaust system.

As said, I won't bother going to any EFI until it can include timing control as well as lean cruise and over-run cut off. That kind of says none of
the pre-packages that I know of. I might also be of a bit different mind if I didn't have a 455 that runs wonderfully even climbing over Bighorn
(Mary had to maneuver around a Corrola on the climb) and if we had any excess cash for the coach program.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[jeff sugheir]

I bought Peter Huber's 403 and have been contemplating which EFI before getting the engine installed. This is a good thread and captures some of the
most important considerations, and now everyone looking forward to Jerry's progress reports.
FiTech has disrupted the bottom of the price-performance curve with others to follow, but the FiTech fuel system is the real gem for the GMC.
The other end of the curve is what Mr. Hupy has asserted. The best - highest quality, best engineered, and relatively easy install - for the GMCmh
is:
http://www.promracing.com/pro-m-efi-engine-management-systems/oldsmobile-complete-efi-systems/455-gmc-motorhome-complete-mass-air-sequential-port-efi-system.html
I have been in contact and the system can be put on an edelbrock OLDS 350 performer intake for the 403.
Downside is $5K without a fuel system solution.

Still contemplating...
--
GMCamel in Boise - 73/94 GMCII w/76 455, headers & Paterson distributor, Al radiator, 1 ton front, 4 bags back, Huber TBs

[Robert Mueller]

Jim,

Boy you SURE screwed up when you let this cat out of the bag!

"Went to VW/Porshe/Audi school. Learned about the Bosch Jetronic FI as used on VW fastbacks and Squarebacks."

I have been having FI problems with my Dad's '68 Squareback and now I know who I can pester to help me get it fixed. I have multiple
spares of every component in the system and the tester unit as well.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

[Ken Henderson]

Bill,

1. NO. Howell uses a narrow band O2 sensor. The EBL upgrade provides and
optional additional upgrade to a WB sensor. When I installed my EBL, Mr.
EBL, BobR recommended that I get everything else working well before
including the WB.
By the time I thought about using the WB, 5 years or so later, I'd
installed the WB 'way down the exhaust system, behind the Y-pipe, and was
monitoring its output on the EBL What's Up Display (WUD). Because of the
latency imposed by that O2 location, I've never chosen to utilize it for
engine control. There are reasons for that besides procrastination:

A. To decrease the response delay (latency), I'd have to move the WB
to one of the exhaust pipes nearer the engine. That would leave me
controlling based on 4 cylinders' performance and no longer monitoring all
8 in any way (as I now do personally with the WB readout).

B. The NB does a good job of controlling mixture during closed loop
operation and I don't spend enough time outside of that band to justify the
complexity of WB control.

C: The WB uses an external control unit, increasing the complexity
and inevitably reducing reliability.

D. Just ain't worth the steenkin' trouble!

​2. I think a couple of the integrated units do have knock control
options, but probably no better than the "retard from pre-programmed and
try again" scheme in the original GM ECU and EBL. In other words, they
also do not try to advance the timing to an optimal level nor do they store
either a computed optimal value or "what worked the last time".​ So
there's apparently no improvement since the 80's or before.

JMHO,

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Bill Van Vlack <bill.va...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Matt,
> Just to confirm my understanding....
>
> Quote:
> > It incorporates a wide band O2 sensor, but those are not accurate or
> fast enough to do real stoichiometric control
>
>
> 1. I understand that the Howell system uses a WB02 for fuel control; what
> am I missing here?
>
> 2. It seems only the Howell/EBL system can do knock control (if you mount
> the sensor on the motor mount as I understand from the EFI board). To me,
> that seems like a good reason to choose it over any of the others.
> --

[Bill Van Vlack]

Thanks, Ken.
I'll have to study the Howell/EBL system a little more. The fuel/ignition in my late 80's car with the Bosch LH also uses the NB for fuel control,
although the aftermarket tuner package uses a WBO2 for reporting and stock map biasing calcs. The WB is placed in the X-pipe just aft (~1') of the end
of the exhaust manifolds. All probably for the same reasons as the Howell.

The simplicity (and cost) of the newer systems are attractive, but it sounds like it's hard to beat the tuning functions of the Howell system. Except
the learning part? Again, More research.... but I'm not planning on adding EFI for awhile anyway. Brake and fuel lines first.

--
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid
November 2015; Since arrival: New HVAC blower, heat flap cable, headlight switch.

[Jim Kanomata]

We Have sold from our place over 40 Howel/EBL system.
Might have had some issues with few ECM when our file got contaminated and
left here with that file.
Randy V. figured out the problem and we have not had any more.
Almost all of the feedback from our customer are saying that they are
getting at least 1 mpg gain and they have not touched anything since
installing.
Bob R. will be addressing us soon and he will shed some light on his EBL
system that we sell.
Since 1990, I have used EFI on my 540 Cad and moved from 100% fuel only
control to the more elaborate Holly unit, so EFI is not new to me as I have
use Hal Tec as they developed to full Engine Management System.
Our EBL system has a timing file that was developed by Bob Musgrove for the
455 and another for the 403.they are different and you be amased at amount
of timing the EBL will allow it to go to get maximum power and sensing
engine temperature and other data to allow engine to perform.

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Bill Van Vlack <bill.va...@gmail.com>
wrote:

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Johnny Bridges]

Somebody above mentioned a couple of my early faves, the Bosch K- and L- Jetronics and the VW CIS and CIS-E. The racer guys of the time used to pay
me to install ten - turn pots in place of some of the fixed resistors in the Bosch units. I dunno what they varied, but they all wanted the mod.
Made the 914-4 steam along a bit better according to them. The CIS-E is elegant in its simplicity, and allows a finer control of the CIS by varying
pump pressure as well as flow via a needle valve. Throttle response is quite good, yet there's a pretty good distance between the mass flow sensor
and the intake valves. It didn't seem to matter.

--johnny

--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[Matt Colie]

Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 15 December 2015 10:28

> Rob sez:
>
> I'm sorry of anybody gets insulted or hurt but comparing automotive electronic fuel injection to aircraft full authority digital
> engine controls won't fly in my book! Pun intended!
>

> When one compars the cost, one sees the difference. The A/C stuff is built to a reliability point. The automotive stuff is built to a price
> point. There's a difference. (Ask me about early computerized transmitter controls, industry vs military, Collins built both)
>
> --johnny

Johnny,

You do know that an elephant is just a MIL-Spec mouse - right?

Matt (Whose father ran a MIL-Spec job shop for lots of years.)

--
Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
'73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Johnny Bridges]

Rob sez:

I'm sorry of anybody gets insulted or hurt but comparing automotive electronic fuel injection to aircraft full authority digital
engine controls won't fly in my book! Pun intended!

When one compars the cost, one sees the difference. The A/C stuff is built to a reliability point. The automotive stuff is built to a price point.
There's a difference. (Ask me about early computerized transmitter controls, industry vs military, Collins built both)

--johnny

--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[Johnny Bridges]

Yeh I do. Interestingly, Rockwell bought the Collins commercial broadcast line from Collins Radio, and produced transmitters in a mil-spec shop.
Absolutely the best build quality and documentation of any of the three manufacturers (Collins Radio, Rockwell-Collins and Continental Electronics) of
the famous 831 series of FMs and 82x series of AMs. They're excellent designs and all were well made, but the Rockwell ones were the epitome of
broadcast RF gear. They had little old gray-haired lady inspectors and a carpeted assembly line. I was touring the place when one of them told a
build test tech "I'm just going to award you this little red dot" on a connection. When she walked away the guy cussed for twenty minutes. Jack
Sellmeyer (look him up) was taking me through the place, and said it would take the guy an hour of paper and three more inspections to get the squawk
removed. He hadn't put a marker line on a bolted connection, indicating he had tested the torque on the bolt.

--johnny
--
'76 23' transmode Norris upfit
Braselton, Ga.

"Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon

[Gerald Work]

FiTech EFI First Impressions
Jerry Work
December 2015

How could you not like a GMC that drives like a modern car? At this point I couldn’t be happier with the ease of the installation of this FiTech EFI system or the strongly positive impact on how the Clasco now drives. And, this after just a few miles of the EFI self learning. I understand from the factory designers that the improvements will continue over time as the system experiences more and more varied driving conditions. The software controlling the learning appears to be quite sophisticated as if you are one who wants to twiddle (not me) there is a document on the FiTech web site that describes the literally dozens of parameters you can set targets for, or modify if you want to, which will influence the learning process and the eventual running parameters. I don’t even understand what most of them would do right now. The good news is you don’t need to even go to that part of the hand held controller’s menu. The system literally will learn as you drive with no input from you other than inputting a few simple engine related questions such as displacement, the type of cam, target idle speed, etc. It remembers the most current settings it has learned and each time you start up begins from there but continues to learn, gradually reaching the point that no further minor tweaks are necessary for the kinds of driving experiences you have actually encountered. If you do encounter something new, it will learn from that new experience and constantly add to its knowledge base.

When I first fired the system it had trouble starting on its own. Once it did it settled in quickly. I fiddled with the factory set idle air controls to open the throttle valves a bit more to let in more air at cold start and that did appear to help but effected high idle when cold as you would expect. When I called the techs (who have answered the phones immediately each time and seem to be quite knowledgable) the first question was “do you have 12vdc while cranking?” I had used the choke wire from the electric choke on the old carb and had tested it for 12vdc with the key on, but never tested it during cranking. Turns out the source I used (the heater blower low speed yellow wire) was one that was dead while cranking and the FiTech unit turned off while the starter was cranking. So, it was only supplying fuel before start and after it finally got rich enough to start and I relaxed the key from the start to the run position. Self inflicted wound. As soon as I pulled voltage from a source that was hot both at key on and at crank, the system fired as soon as the key turned whether hot or cold. More on this point later.

Once I had that sorted out I then fiddled with the idle air control to try to get it back close to the factory setting. I am close, but not yet quite where I want to be. The techs walked me through the process right on the phone. Once I got that close I asked if there was anything else I needed to do. He chuckled and said something like, “just drive it and have fun, that is what all of us here do and we have our own units installed on a wide variety of our own old cars and trucks. No one said we have to, it is just that we are all gear heads and love what the system does for drivability of our older vehicles.” That is when I did my first test drive.

The results are most impressive. It looks to me like the initial settings error on the side of running too rich and then lean out as the learning progresses. Once the weather clears and after we get back from Christmas in Vancouver, BC, I look forward to tackling some of the steep grades around here. From what I can feel now I don’t expect anything but more grins when I do. The most immediate impressions are that the 455 now starts instantly hot or cold, runs much more smoothly at all RPMs hot or cold and has immediate throttle response hot or cold. I also think it runs at a bit higher vacuum and may have a bit more oomph but that is just anecdotal at this point. We plan on taking the Clasco south for the winter so by spring I should have around 5000 miles of experience with the system, and by the time of the October four club Coos Bay, OR, rally should have something around 10,000 miles on the clock. I plan to do a detailed presentation on installation tips and what I have learned about driving performance and efficiency at that rally.

That October rally is being jointly planned and put on by all four of the west coast GMC clubs - GMC Cascaders, GMC 49ers, GMC Pacific Cruisers and GMC Western States. It should be a large and bang up event. Gary and Rebecca Bovee are the rally masters and I’m sure will be providing more event details as they get set in place. It should be even larger and better than the three club rally we did there a couple of years ago. So, put a mark on your calendars and make a date with the magnificent Oregon coast next fall.

Back to the issue about where to draw system key-on power. The logical place appears to be from the battery + terminal on the bottom of the HEI distributor cap. That wire is hot both with the key on and while cranking. But, it is only an 18 gage wire so can’t carry much in the way of amperage. It is also traverses a round about path to get there. A 12 gage wire from the battery runs to the ignition switch at the bottom of the steering column and from there to a connector. From that connector it is only 18 gage to the distributor. I can read a measurable voltage drop from battery voltage to that connector on the Clasco during key on so it has to have high resistance somewhere. I also read quite a voltage sag while the starter is cranking. I am going to probe more tomorrow but likely will run a 12 gage wire from the ACCY terminal in the fuse box (which appears to be hot during start and run) out to that battery + post on the distributor to provide more and more stable voltage to the HEI distributor and the FiTech EFI during start and at run. I will let you know if that appears to make any difference. The system appears to perform just fine as it is so that key on voltage drop from battery voltage and the sag during crank may not matter much to either the HEI or the EFI.

I have no way of knowing whether all of the EFI units on the market - the self learning variety or the build or buy the tables yourself variety - would do as well or maybe even better than this FiTech system, but I continue to be impressed with the combination of apparent build quality, ease of mechanical and electrical installation, the cleanliness of the installation (lack of wires running all over the place as the only external sensors are the O2 and water temp), the helpfulness and responsiveness of the FiTech staff, the value proposition at their $1000 price point, and how very much better the driving experience is. I only have direct experience with this one system so maybe all of the EFI offerings offer a similar experience. Time will tell. Certainly it would be nice if I wind up with more apparent power or better fuel economy, but I would buy this system again just for the difference it made in the driving experience. And, for my style of driving and my expectations I don’t care if I could ring out a fraction more here or there by different spark control or some other means, what this system does on first impression is enough for me. If it proves to be as reliable as I think it will be, I will be a happy camper and looking to do the same thing to the Royale.

My guess is that by this time next year all the after market EFI systems will be at the same $1000 price point as this FiTech unit (or will be driven out of the market) and all the different makers will offer a front mounted, integrated fuel management/surge tank and submerged HP pump system as the one now offered by FiTech. And, it couldn’t come at a better time for our old GMCs as far as I am concerned.

Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR

glw...@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com

[Robert Mueller]

Jerry,

Excellent report, THANKS!

One question, is an adapter required to fit the FiTech injection system on the Q-Jet manifold?

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic

[Jim Kanomata]

Jerry,
It's like picking a wife, we all have certain criteria and all have their
great points and weaker points.
We are the ones that need to work with or live with, and no one can help us
there.


On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Robert Mueller <robmu...@iinet.net.au>
wrote:

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[MIGUEL MENDEZ]

sure rob, as stated, I was told that I can take the howell system to any GM dealer and they would hook it up and diagnose the problem, (By this
customer's mouth that is), however, we did, and it did not ring true, that's all

--
Miguel

1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, side bath w/ a 403 that i love.

GMC name : The other woman


http://www.mgmgmc.com

[MIGUEL MENDEZ]

edited it, added the "," i missed, that's the Cuban in me, hiope you better understand now Rob.

--
Miguel

1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, side bath w/ a 403 that i love.

GMC name : The other woman


http://www.mgmgmc.com

[D C _Mac_ Macdonald]

What is total cost of a FiTech system to install?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
|[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
"--OO--[]---O-"

> From: glw...@mac.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:46:40 -0800
> To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] FiTech EFI looks like the real deal
>
> FiTech EFI First Impressions
> Jerry Work
> December 2015
>
> How could you not like a GMC that drives like a modern car?
>

[Norman Allinson]

Thank you for your detailed report and impressions - looking forward to your updates.