Re: [GMCnet] Tire age advise

[THOMAS R WHITTON via Gmclist]

I have 16" Firestone, E-range, tires on the coach that will be 6-years old this December (6-years from manufacturing date).  They have about 1,500 miles on them and have spent almost their entire life in a dark garage while we were downsizing to a smaller home and taking care of health issues.  We're now ready to take some GMC trips.  Given the history of these tires, what do you guys think?  Replace or use?
Tom Whitton26 foot updated GMCPaducah, KY
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

[Dolph Santorine via Gmclist]

Tom:

It’s a safety issue, and a failure could be a whole lot more expensive that six new tires.

I would replace them.

Just my opinion.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

Tom,

The "experiment" I reported is on tires that replaced Firestones that were
almost exactly 5 years from their date of manufacture. One of them had
already shed the tread about 3 years ago. I WILL NOT run tires over 5
years old. Period.

You might get lucky, but do you really want to gamble on the $2000+ that it
generally costs for the fiberglass damage when a tread lets go at speed?

But then, my NEW Westlakes may be even worse! :-(

Ken H.

[Rob via Gmclist]

If money is no object - many here will say replace them.

For me - I'd likely continue to run them for a season or two (depending on how regularly they've been used). My tires are getting older - I'll need to replace them early next season? I think they have a late 2011 date code. But my tires are not baked in the sun like some are down south and they get used pretty regularly. Sitting for long periods is not good for tires...

For another data point, Michelin suggests a 10 year lifespan for RV tires:

https://www.michelinb2b.com/wps/b2bcontent/PDF/RV_Tires_Brochure.pdf

So YMMV!

Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Spin the wheel, ladies and gents, spin the wheel. Place your best, place
your bets. Having a blowout and tearing up the molded sheet
compound on the side of the coach is NOT THE WORST THING that could happen.
People riding in the coach, as well as in other vehicles near it when a
tire lets go are at risk.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 10:57 AM Rob via Gmclist <gmc...@list.gmcnet.org>
wrote:

[Tom Lins via Gmclist]

I would not trust tires that are 6 years old if they had not been use regularly except to get me to the nearest shop to replace them.


--
Tom Lins
St Augustine, FL
77 GM Rear Twin, Dry Bath, 455, FI-Tech EFI, Aluminum Radiator Quad-Bag Suspension
Manuals on DVD
GMC Dealer Training Tapes
http://www.bdub.net/tomlins/

[Emery Stora via Gmclist]

It’d be safer to replace them.

Emery Stora

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

Rob wrote on Tue, 27 August 2019 12:56

> For another data point, Michelin suggests a 10 year lifespan for RV tires:
>
> https://www.michelinb2b.com/wps/b2bcontent/PDF/RV_Tires_Brochure.pdf

I'll "Spin the Wheel" on a 10 year old Michelin over an new, but untried, lower quality tire any day....

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

You DID read Emery's post about having a 7 yo and a 4 yo Michelin blow with
NO load, didn't you?

Ken H.

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

I did mine a year apart over 3 years in pairs. Directly the first pair will be coming up, I go seven years from date on the tire. Local ghuy -
second and third generation - sells me Coopers at whatever the bigf box places get and rotate - balance as long as there's tread on it.

--johnny


--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

IF they have been out of the UV as you say, and IF they have never been run under inflated, and IF there is no visible cracking i would run them up to
the 7 year point. 1500 miles is a new tire as far as road use, just not the clock.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Matt Colie via Gmclist]

Tom,

I largely agree with Dolph, but I think he is being just a tad conservative.
I have now run more than a few Firestone Transforce HT LRE out to 8 years (plus) and not had an issue, but I called it there. At six years old and
stored cool, I think you are going to be in the clear.

In a lengthy and interesting discussion I got to have with Roger Marbles at an FMCA rally, he was most insistent that the real issue was the
temperature history of the tire. So, if that barn was dark and cool, you are probably in pretty good shape. If you are planning a lot of hot
highway, you might just replace the steer wheels.

Most manufactures will allow that the life of a should be eight years with a big asterisk.

It is all a judgement call.

Safe travel

Matt


Dolph Santorine wrote on Tue, 27 August 2019 13:28

> Tom:
> It's a safety issue, and a failure could be a whole lot more expensive that six new tires.
> I would replace them.
> Just my opinion.
> Dolph
>

> Tom Whitten wrote:
> I have 16" Firestone, E-range, tires on the coach that will be 6-years old this December (6-years from manufacturing date). They have about 1,500
> miles on them and have spent almost their entire life in a dark garage while we were downsizing to a smaller home and taking care of health issues.
> We're now ready to take some GMC trips. Given the history of these tires, what do you guys think?
> Replace or use?
> Tom Whitton26 foot updated GMCPaducah, KY

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Margie Van Winkle via Gmclist]

Tom,. Glad to hear that you are getting back on the road. Happy travels.

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 27 August 2019 14:59

> You DID read Emery's post about having a 7 yo and a 4 yo Michelin blow with
> NO load, didn't you?
>
> Ken H.

I did not see that, Ken. Do you have a link to the post? I tried searching the forum, but did not find it... I'd like to see what tires he was
running and the details....

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

This topic is similar to motor oil threads... Everyone has an opinion, and everyone's opinion is gospel. It's almost like getting into a politics or
religion discussion... I'm going to add my opinion here, but bottom line is do some research, and use some common sense and make your own decision.


Scenario 1: Your tire is 7 years old. It is a quality tire, but you don't know the history. REPLACE
Scenario 2: Your tire is less than 7 years old. It either looks like hell (weather/age cracked, worn funny) OR is is a low quality tire. REPLACE
Scenario 3: Your tire is greater than 7 years old. It looks fine. There is no adverse wear or weather checking. You know the tires history. It has
not been run underinflated or abused in any way. It is a quality tire. You are probably ok.

And I'll do one better and put my money where my mouth is. I run Michelin XPS Ribs on my coach. The coach and the tires have always been stored
indoors. Tires have not been abused in any way. There is no age checking at all. Wear pattern is fine. They are greater than 10 years old. As a
matter of fact, in the last 4 years, I have not even had to add air to the tires. At all. (I don't travel in winter... Only drives to keep the coach
limber, so the reduced pressure due to the cold is not an issue, as the coach is also lightly loaded)

I just did a trip from Texas to Florida and back with my family of 5 with the coach fully loaded. It was 104 out when I left, and similar temps most
of the drive. Only thing I do is a walk around of the coach with a visual inspection and a non-contact thermometer at every gas stop while on the
road. Other than those checks, I didn't worry at all about the tires.

Here is an interesting read from a Fire Safety organization on tire age and Fire Apparatus that was publised a few years ago. Reading through the
study, their findings make sense to me... And in my opinion, if what is described below is good enough for an emergency vehicle, it's good enough for
my coach...

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/News-and-Research/Fire-statistics-and-reports/Emergency-responders/RFAutomativeFireApparatusTireReplacement.ashx?la=en

Quote:
> From the present research, it is found that no literature convincingly supports a seven year tire
> replacement criteria. Further, it is realized that the wear and tear of the tire are due more importance
> while considering a tire replacement. As mentioned in the rubber manufacturer's association statement,
> since service and storage conditions vary widely, accurately predicting the actual serviceable life of any
> specific tire based on simple calendar age is not possible. A tire should be removed from service for
> multiple reasons: tread wear to minimum tread depth, tire damage like cuts, cracks, bulges etc., improper
> inflation pressure and storage conditions. A specific inspection and maintenance of fire apparatus tire is
> recommended.

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[Matt Colie via Gmclist]

If you really want an example of age-out, here is the example passed to me by a friend that is the curator of a museum.

After the Mercury and Apollo programs, NASA made changes to the space suits that made all those older suits obsolete. They awarded many to museums
with complete care instructions. These suits were displayed in climate controlled cases. This was good for a while, but then it was noticed that the
were in trouble. Some were literaly falling apart. This was investigated at great length and it was found that even with the best of care, the
elastomers that were supposed to bond all of the different parts were failing. This was age-out only and they could not find any means to stop it
from happening.

While this is now more serious with the elimination of solvent borne adhesives and their replacement with water based compounds, it apparently was
known of years ago, but not much that was bonded lasted long enough to be an issue.

I had a person experience this way with laminated sails. Twenty-odd years ago, I bought a competitive sloop. I got it will 11 sails in the
inventory. The majority were laminated and the loft that inspected (and repaired some) said that they were all in great condition. I wasn't ready.
By the end of the first season, there was only one laminated sail still usable. There were fortunately a pretty complete suit of cruising sails in
stitched Dacron.

So, this is what you are up against. UV, and exercise don't matter very much, but the years will come to get you.

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[rallymaster--- via Gmclist]

I've seen no mention of the original reason for the tire age limits. As I
recall, it was for tires on vehicles that were not in frequent use. The
reason given was that the oils in the rubber were not circulated during
non-use, and the tires dried out. Vehicles that were used frequently
didn't have the problem. Of course, frequently used vehicles also wore
the tires out sooner.

Following is an excerpt from
https://www.utires.com/articles/how-long-do-tires-last-if-not-used/
Why Tires Age Even If They’re Not Used?
A tires service time expires because of the rubber aging, as the material
is always exposed to oxygen that makes the particles become harder and
less flexible. As a result, the rubber starts to crack outside and
inside, which may cause tread or steel cord separation and complete tire
failure.
Furthermore, stored tires last for a limited amount of time as they
aren’t lubricated. When you ride a tire, the heated oils within it
circulate and grease the rubber, preventing premature drying. When it’s
in storage, the oils and emollients dry out, causing known consequences.
Since even long-lasting rubber eventually ages, it’s recommended to not
use a 10+ year old tire. To learn more about how often you should buy new
tires, read this post.
It’s very important to determine the age of the tire you store by reading
the date code on its sidewall. Remember, the age is counted from the year
of manufacture, not the date you purchased it. If you buy a tire that was
stored in a shop for 5 years, you may be wasting your money.

This also gives some info, but is not the original that I read.
https://www.utires.com/articles/how-often-buy-new-tires-for-car/

RonC

On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:02:15 -0600 Mark Sawyer via Gmclist
<gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> writes:
> This topic is similar to motor oil threads... Everyone has an
> opinion, and everyone's opinion is gospel. It's almost like getting
> into a politics or
> religion discussion... I'm going to add my opinion here, but bottom
> line is do some research, and use some common sense and make your
> own decision.

Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
1978 Eleganza II

[Fred Hudspeth via Gmclist]

Mark,

I note that the Michelin XPS RIB is an "all steel" tire.

I agree with your observations on change interval for that "all steel" tire.
Until about seven years ago, I had Goodyear G159 tires ("all steel") on my
GMC. I changed them at 12 years and about 80K miles (and still not worn to
the "wear bars"). There were no signs of any deterioration. The coach was
always in an insulated, sealed garage when not in use (about 9 months total
each year).

I did not replace them with the successor G159 as the cost was going to be
about $360/tire "off the shelf". I instead bought BF Goodrich Commercial TAs
("fabric" sidewall) with the intention of using them like the G159s. Not to
be - at about 5 years and about 40K miles, two of them began to show
evidence of failing sidewalls ('fortunately discovered before actual
failure). In comparing notes with a couple of major GMC service vendors and
other owners on use of those and other "name brand" fabric-wall tires, the
"counsel" was to plan to change them, REGARDLES OF MANUFACTURER, at about
five years. So - I, am doing that. The fabric-sidewall tire does "ride" more
comfortably than the G159s but 'have to incur the hassle of changing them
out twice as often as "all steel" tires.

Re " Only thing I do is a walk around of the coach with a visual inspection

and a non-contact thermometer at every gas stop while on the road. Other

than those checks, I didn't worry at all about the tires." My practice is
the same. It has served me well.

Fred

Fred Hudspeth
1978 Royale (TZE 368V101335) - Tyler, TX
1982 Airstream Excella (motorhome) - Cooper Landing, Alaska





Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:02:15 -0600
From: Mark Sawyer <mark.s...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Tire age advise
Message-ID: <54b56.5...@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

This topic is similar to motor oil threads... Everyone has an opinion, and
everyone's opinion is gospel. It's almost like getting into a politics or
religion discussion... I'm going to add my opinion here, but bottom line is
do some research, and use some common sense and make your own decision.

[THOMAS R WHITTON via Gmclist]

Every answer was worthy of serious consideration.

Thanks for your suggestions on my tires, which will be 6-years old the 49th week of December.  Right now they are 5.63 years old with about 1,500 miles on them.  Almost all of the time, when not on the road, the coach and tires were parked in a dark garage.  The sidewalls look new.  The little protrusions from the molds are still there.  They have always been properly inflated.  I'm thinking I will use them this fall and replace them after their 6th birthday.  I know there is some risk but I believe it is likely minimal.  Please rest assured that I will let everyone know.
Thanks again,

Tom Whitton26 foot updated GMCPaducah, KY

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

fbhtxak wrote on Wed, 28 August 2019 17:40

> Mark,
>
> I note that the Michelin XPS RIB is an "all steel" tire.

I am a big fan of the XPSs, but most in this group seem to recommend not going with an all steel tire for handling/ride.... I'm not sure what the
disconnect between my experience and others on the forum, but it may be due to the inflation pressure used... If you inflate a tire to a pressure
higher than required to carry the axle's load, handling and feel can suffer... I would imagine this is compounded on tires with an all steel case.
However most tire manufacturers will publish "Load/Pressure" charts for their heavy duty tires...

FWIW, here is the one Michelin publishes for their light truck tires:

https://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck_en_us/assets/pdf/load-and-inflation.pdf

The XPSs also have great reviews on tirerack and other sites... And I feel they ride and handle great. And I can't understand how they wear so well,
but still offer as much grip as they do. I plan on replacing mine this fall, (probably on one of the black friday sales) with another set of XPSs...

However, Michelin has a new rag wall tire that looks interesting... It's new, so there are not too many reviews, but if the reviews stay good over
time, I may consider it for my next set. Running a 225/75/16C would get you triple steel tread plies, and a "polyamide" ply in this tire... I
believe products like Aramid and Kevlar are also polyamides....

Quote:
> The Agilis CrossClimate is Michelin's Highway All-Season light truck tire developed for the drivers of delivery vans, work trucks and
> multi-purpose vehicles who need a durable tire that can endure high-stress use, including heavy loads and rough conditions. Available in heavy-duty,
> LT-metric and Euro-metric Commercial Vehicle (designated by the suffix C, not to be confused with LT-metric Load Range C) sizes, Agilis CrossClimate
> tires are designed to be used under load and to provide confident dry and wet traction, in addition to light snow performance capable of earning the
> three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol.
>
> Agilis CrossClimate tires mold an all-season compound into a symmetric pattern for LT-metric sizes or a directional pattern for Euro-metric
> Commercial Vehicle sizes. Both tread patterns utilize Michelin's StabiliBlok Technology, which provides wider and longer tread blocks to manage heat
> and withstand the high torque loads delivered by commercial vehicles. SipeLock technology delivers hundreds of biting edges for wet and snow
> traction while helping to maintain tread block stability for handling and improved wear, and CurbGard Sidewall Protectors help resist damage from
> curbs in tight, urban environments. Deep lateral grooves and open shoulder slots evacuate water from the footprint for hydroplaning resistance,
> while independent tread blocks and sipes combine for confident light snow traction.
>
> The internal construction of the Agilis CrossClimate is focused on durability under load. A robust, two-ply polyester casing supports two
> heavy-duty steel belts (3 steel belts in 235/65R16C and 225/75R16C sizes). A polyamide reinforcement ply helps control the contact patch and further
> enhances durability.

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

BTW, I'm not some Michelin freak... Though I feel they make an excellent truck tire, I was not a fan of their high performance all seasons (Pilot
Sport AS2s)when I ran them on my wife's G8. Wore out very fast. But I'm giving them a try again currently with the AS3s as it is supposed to be a
new compound) I also run Michelin's (LTXs Load Range E) on my Excursion. Great tire, but I would not run these if I always had them heavily loaded
like in the GMC, as I find the sidewalls to be too soft. They ride and grip great, though.

While I'm not a Michelin freak, I am a car freak... I've got way too many according to my wife, but consequently, I own tires from a lot of brands.
Going through them, I'm currently running tires by: Bridgestone, BFG, Pirelli, Hankook, Toyo, Continental, Yokohama and Falcon....

[roy keen via Gmclist]

My brother had problems with Goodrich TA's on his Ford mini Motorhome it is a2006 Thor. He had to replace 4 tires in the last 2 years the date code
was 2016 all 225 16 E rated. He is running at 80 psi and his coach is right at the tire load rating. I believe other folks had problems with
Goodrich also . You never know even Michelin has had problems in the past.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[GMC Motorhome via Gmclist]

BF Goodrich is a Michelin brand - but I'm not sure how many manufacturing
plants they share between their various brands. It wouldn't surprise me to
hear that both brands (and others) are manufactured in the same facility...

Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

The shards and carcass parts you see strewn on our highways are all steel truck tire remnants. Any micro cracking in the sideways allows moisture and
road chemicals to wick into the steel wires. The wire corrodes and this corrosion goes undetected until the sidewall fails. I'll stick with the poly.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Mark Sawyer via Gmclist]

JohnL455 wrote on Fri, 30 August 2019 09:32

> The shards and carcass parts you see strewn on our highways are all steel truck tire remnants. Any micro cracking in the sideways allows moisture
> and road chemicals to wick into the steel wires. The wire corrodes and this corrosion goes undetected until the sidewall fails. I'll stick with the
> poly.

A poly sidewall tire still has steel belts on the tread. If a tire is cracked enough to let moisture into the casing so the wire corrodes, it does
not matter if it is steel in the sidewall or steel in the tread, you'll still end up with a failure.

Also, most of the tire remnants you see on the highway are recap failures, not failures due to corrosion of the belts.

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

A belt failure usually gives you an audible clue as well as tactile clue before fail. A belt fail usually will contain air and carcass integrity as
belts are outboard of the carcass. A truck tire Bandag recap can likewise jettison the recap rubber and still hold air. This is the typical black
alligator you see usually split but remaining the length of the circumference. These used to he very common. What I'm seeing daily on the highways
now is steel shards from total sidewall fail and lots of separate shrapnel for a 1/4 mile or so. This is steel wire fail of the carcass. BOOM!

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II