[GMCnet] Engine Storage Shutdown Procedure
Rob Mueller
I was perusing a list of old GMCnet contributions when I ran across this.
********************************************************************************
How should I prepare an Engine for Storage?
Get it warm, change the oil and filter, and make sure the antifreeze is up to strength, and run it 30-45 minutes with the fresh
stuff, and then stall it out with a quart of oil poured fairly rapidly down the carb throat as it idles. It should give one belch
and stall. If you want to force a stall, and have seen the white smoke from the tailpipe, which indicates the oil has passed thru,
unclip the (usually white) HEI connector terminal with your fingernail (marker 'BATT') and the engine will turn off.
Put the air cleaner lid back on, put a plastic bag over the air cleaner snorkel with an elastic and it should be fine as long as you
care to leave it. Ideally a plastic drop sheet beneath the car would help keep the damp from attacking it. Pull the battery and
you're done.
********************************************************************************
I'd never heard of doing this before and was wondering what the consensus on doing this was.
Regards,
Rob M.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
James Hupy
Mercruiser Fogging Oil which is made expressly for winterizing their big
outboards. Never had a problem with any engine that I did that way.
Jim Hupy
Salem,OR
78 GMC Royale 403
Matt Colie
Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 20:22
> G'day,
>
> I was perusing a list of old GMCnet contributions when I ran across this.
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> How should I prepare an Engine for Storage?
>
> Get it warm, change the oil and filter, and make sure the antifreeze is up to strength, and run it 30-45 minutes with the fresh stuff, and then stall it out with a quart of oil poured fairly rapidly down the carb throat as it idles. It should give one belch and stall. If you want to force a stall, and have seen the white smoke from the tailpipe, which indicates the oil has passed thru, unclip the (usually white) HEI connector terminal with your fingernail (marker 'BATT') and the engine will turn off.
>
> Put the air cleaner lid back on, put a plastic bag over the air cleaner snorkel with an elastic and it should be fine as long as you care to leave it. Ideally a plastic drop sheet beneath the car would help keep the damp from attacking it. Pull the battery and you're done.
>
> ********************************************************************************
>
> I'd never heard of doing this before and was wondering what the consensus on doing this was.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
Rob,
This is real close to what I used to do to about a dozen different engines every autumn. The big difference is that I would get the engine warn and shut off the fuel. About the time the engine started to go lean and stumble, I would start pouring in Marvel Mystery Oil. I would persist in this madness and smoke filled mayhem until the engine died of fuel starvation. The big trick was to not run out of MMO before the engine quit. The nice thing is that this leaves the carburetor just about dry.
Did this work? Well, one engine got put up and the owner got transferred. Seven years later, he got back from the "temporary assignment. The engine didn't start instantly, but it did. And there was 50 gallons of nasty fuel to get rid of, but he ran that boat for another ten seasons.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Richard Michelhaugh
Pouring oil down her throat while running is a good way to hydrolock it and bend a conrod.
Don't do it!!!
misting oil in while it is idling and stalling from running her out of fuel is OK.
Rick M.
Rob Mueller
I agree in theory, however, for a hydrolock to occur one would have to fill the combustion chamber of the cylinder totally with oil.
According to the reference below the combustion chambers in a 455 Olds are between 69.75 to 82 CC.
http://oldsjunction.classicoldsmobile.com/oldsfaq/ofhed.htm
I think it would be hard to do that.
Also I would think that a person savvy enough to want to preserve the engine would have enough common sense not to up end the oil
container and pour it in one shot but would let it trickle in slowly.
Regards,
Rob M.
Matt Colie
rickmike wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 22:20
> Pouring oil down her throat while running is a good way to hydrolock it and bend a conrod.
>
> Don't do it!!!
>
> misting oil in while it is idling and stalling from running her out of fuel is OK.
>
> Rick M.
Rick,
I have never ever heard of that happening, and if it had ever (and been substantiated) I would have been made aware.
Please, Nothing personal, but this is obviously something you have never done.
This procedure has to be done with the engine hot and the air cleaner or backflash arrestor (marine part) off or open.
You have put your body in there, bent over the hot engine so your face is right over the carburetor (even if you have a large enough pump oiler)- tweaking the throttle shaft to keep it idling and trying to pour oil past the choke plate so it gets shared between the primary venturi. (This is tough with a Qjet because the space between them.) A pump oiler can work up to a nominal small block, but about 400CI you can't get the oil in there fast enough and long enough to do the job effectively. Just to help this along, there is an almost closed throttle plate down there. If you get too big a puddle on that the engine gets real rough and if you crack the throttle a little too much (to keep it running), that oil comes out to find you.
There is simply no way to pour oil into a large running SI engine fast enough to cause it to hydraulic lock. Even if you were to try, an idling 455 is displacing over 10 quarts a second (~mailto:13@100% VE). That means that you to would have to try to empty that 1 quart can into the running engine in about 90 milliseconds.
None of this applies to any kind of diesel. Pouring oil into diesel intake is likely to cause a run-away situation that can only be stopped with a CO2 fire extinguisher. Remember most diesels have no air intake throttle.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
James Hupy
of Detroit (GM)
2 stroke Diesels, both the 71 CU IN per Cylinder and the 92 CU IN per
cylinder. All configurations, inline to V16s Any time we had been working on
one and fuel was present in the system up to the injectors, the instructors
were very insistent that we not turn the engines over with a bar or flex
handle if the injectors were in place. In a warm room, the assembly oil plus
the injected diesel from turning the engine over could cause the engine to
fire a cylinder. Not something that you want to have happen when you are
holding onto a wrench on the crank nut. We always had someone on standby
with a CO2 fire bottle when trying to start a freshly rebuilt engine and if
it started to accellerate uncontrolled or "runaway", a couple of short
blasts of CO2 in the intake would control it. I was always very respectfull
of them. But like Matt says, you would have to be pouring a heck of a lot of
oil in a GMC 455 to hydraulic lock it, particularly with it running.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
Jim Wagner
Rob,
Watch out for that belch. You could be cleaning oil off your face and headliner. Don't ask me how I know.
Jim Wagner
Brook Park, oh
and then stall it out with a quart of oil poured fairly rapidly down the carb throat as it idles. It should give one belch
and stall.
Richard Michelhaugh
Some day I won't really be smiling when I say I told you so...
My buddy down the street, who has an automotive machine shop has had the customers to prove it!
Rick M.
Matt Colie wrote on Thu, 27 October 2011 08:29
> rickmike wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 22:20
> > Pouring oil down her throat while running is a good way to hydrolock it and bend a conrod.
> >
> > Don't do it!!!
> >
> > misting oil in while it is idling and stalling from running her out of fuel is OK.
> >
> > Rick M.
>
> Rick,
>
> I have never ever heard of that happening, and if it had ever (and been substantiated) I would have been made aware.
>
> Please, Nothing personal, but this is obviously something you have never done.
>
> This procedure has to be done with the engine hot and the air cleaner or backflash arrestor (marine part) off or open.
>
> You have put your body in there, bent over the hot engine so your face is right over the carburetor (even if you have a large enough pump oiler)- tweaking the throttle shaft to keep it idling and trying to pour oil past the choke plate so it gets shared between the primary venturi. (This is tough with a Qjet because the space between them.) A pump oiler can work up to a nominal small block, but about 400CI you can't get the oil in there fast enough and long enough to do the job effectively. Just to help this along, there is an almost closed throttle plate down there. If you get too big a puddle on that the engine gets real rough and if you crack the throttle a little too much (to keep it running), that oil comes out to find you.
>
> There is simply no way to pour oil into a large running SI engine fast enough to cause it to hydraulic lock. Even if you were to try, an idling 455 is displacing over 10 quarts a second (~13@100% VE). That means that you to would have to try to empty that 1 quart can into the running engine in about 90 milliseconds.
>
> None of this applies to any kind of diesel. Pouring oil into diesel intake is likely to cause a run-away situation that can only be stopped with a CO2 fire extinguisher. Remember most diesels have no air intake throttle.
>
> Matt
Rob Mueller
Obviously your buddy deals with motor morons! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Michelhaugh
Some day I won't really be smiling when I say I told you so...
My buddy down the street, who has an automotive machine shop has had the customers to prove it!
Rick M.
Les Burt
Les Burt
Montreal
Rob Mueller
Now that makes sense!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Burt
It might be possible, but highly unlikely that one might pour an excess of oil into the intake AFTER the engine stopped, thinking
that extra is better. An extreme excess like this might create the hydraulic lock upon the next attempt to start the engine,
potentially bending con rods. This might have been why the engine shop claimed it as a high risk.
Les Burt
Montreal
_______________________________________________
James Hupy
moron pouring sufficient liquid down the carb throat to hydraulic a
cylinder. It comes in a large aerosol can and sprays out about the same rate
as wasp and hornet spray does. It contains anti rust/corrosion inhibitors.
Kinda spendy, but so is a stuck engine.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
Matt Colie
James Hupy wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 01:29
> That is why fogging oil was developed. To prevent the possibility of some moron pouring sufficient liquid down the carb throat to hydraulic a cylinder. It comes in a large aerosol can and sprays out about the same rate as wasp and hornet spray does. It contains anti rust/corrosion inhibitors.
> Kinda spendy, but so is a stuck engine.
> Jim Hupy
Jim,
The spray cans of fogging oil aren't that much more expensive that a bottle of Marvel, but the spray doesn't get around inside the engine that well and many people just don't use enough of it. A very common case is stuck exhaust valve(s), but many have high very high lube oil consumption in following seasons because of cylinder wall damaged. (Many cases as examples.)
An owner though he could get by without removing the back flash arrestor because it was a spray. - Nope
An owner read the "use a quart of oil" part somewhere. (He even used two stroke oil in the hope of not smoking up the yard.) The engine stalled with the quart half gone, so he opened the throttle and poured in the remainder. The his well meaning son tried to re-start the engine. This did do hydraulic lock damage.
I have no doubt that Rick's friend has seen damage attributed to too much oil, but there are people in the world that can mess up even the simplest of common procedures.
With a fifty plus year history (yes, I started at the waterman traditional age of 12) of taking care of other people's engines, I can provide cases and amusing stories for as long as the beer hold out.
Another favorite Albert Einstein (Did you know he was a sailor -too) quote:
There are two things I know of with no limits - the universe and human stupidity - I'm not entirely sure about the universe.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
James Hupy
What you and I think should be blatantly obvious does not apply to everyone.
People do some dumb stuff without thinking it through. My mother used to
tell me, "Don't start vast projects with half vast ideas. I always have a
can of marvel mystery oil around also. Mostly I use fogging oil for 2 stroke
outboards, it works very well to unstick reed valves. Here in Oregon, we do
not get the incredible high humidity that other parts of the country get,
nor the opressive heating/cooling that usually accompanies it. All those
factors are sure to have an effect on stored engines, particularly 4 strokes
with poppet valves. What they need to winterize an engine in that climate,
we never see here in Oregon.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
Dennis Sexton
Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 07:12
> James Hupy wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 01:29
> > That is why fogging oil was developed. Jim Hupy
>
> Jim,
>
> The spray cans of fogging oil aren't that much more expensive that a bottle of Marvel, but the spray doesn't get around inside the engine that well and many people just don't use enough of it. A very common case is stuck exhaust valve(s), but many have high very high lube oil consumption in following seasons because of cylinder wall damaged. (Many cases as examples.)
>
> Matt
Matt,
Just to be clear -- are you saying the stuck valves are a result of not using enough fogging oil?
Thanks,
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
Dennis Sexton
Rob et al,
Can I go back to the original post and ask "what is long term storage?" It seems a lot of GMC's are parked for the off-season and not restarted for six months -- many sit around and are only started after a year or more. Are we suggesting we should use this or some similar procedure?
Thanks,
Dennis
Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 26 October 2011 19:22
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
Rob Mueller
As you know Double Trouble is used three to four months a year and this procedure is simple enough to use for that period.
It comes under the old adage of "it can't hurt."
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Sexton
Rob et al,
Can I go back to the original post and ask "what is long term storage?" It seems a lot of GMC's are parked for the off-season and
not restarted for six months -- many sit around and are only started after a year or more. Are we suggesting we should use this or
some similar procedure?
Thanks,
Dennis
Johnny Bridges
--johnny
________________________________
From: James Hupy <james...@gmail.com>
To: gmc...@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine Storage Shutdown Procedure
Rob Mueller
From what you, Jim, and others have noted it is important to get enough oil into the engine or it's a waste of time and you don't
want to pour oil in if the engine isn't running as that could cause a hydro lock.
To do so it appears you need to know two things:
1) how long it will take for the engine to die from fuel starvation
2) how fast to pour the oil into the carb so that you run out of oil at the same time the engine dies
So you can provide empirical research to support Albert's theory, eh?!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Jim,
The spray cans of fogging oil aren't that much more expensive that a bottle of Marvel, but the spray doesn't get around inside the
engine that well and many people just don't use enough of it. A very common case is stuck exhaust valve(s), but many have high very
high lube oil consumption in following seasons because of cylinder wall damaged. (Many cases as examples.)
An owner though he could get by without removing the back flash arrestor because it was a spray. - Nope
An owner read the "use a quart of oil" part somewhere. (He even used two stroke oil in the hope of not smoking up the yard.) The
engine stalled with the quart half gone, so he opened the throttle and poured in the remainder. Then his well meaning son tried to
re-start the engine. This did do hydraulic lock damage.
I have no doubt that Rick's friend has seen damage attributed to too much oil, but there are people in the world that can mess up
even the simplest of common procedures.
With a fifty plus year history (yes, I started at the waterman traditional age of 12) of taking care of other people's engines, I
can provide cases and amusing stories for as long as the beer hold out.
Another favorite Albert Einstein (Did you know he was a sailor -too) quote:
There are two things I know of with no limits - the universe and human stupidity - I'm not entirely sure about the universe.
Matt
Matt Colie
Dennis S wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 09:30
> Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 07:12
> > James Hupy wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 01:29
> > > That is why fogging oil was developed. Jim Hupy
> > Jim,
> >
> > The spray cans of fogging oil aren't that much more expensive that a bottle of Marvel, but the spray doesn't get around inside the engine that well and many people just don't use enough of it. A very common case is stuck exhaust valve(s), but many have high very high lube oil consumption in following seasons because of cylinder wall damaged. (Many cases as examples.)
> >
> > Matt
> Matt,
>
> Just to be clear -- are you saying the stuck valves are a result of not using enough fogging oil?
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
(do you think we have enough quote boxes? - a joke for forum readers)
Dennis,
That is exactly what I am saying. I remember several specific cases well. (Mostly because I got to write a survey/quote and a final bill.) But I will outline two cases I remember well. Exhaust valves were stuck open due to corrosion of the exhaust valve stem.
In separate cases, owners had trouble after restarting in the spring fit-out. When I was asking how they had put the engine up both of them showed me a spray can of engine fogger. One had used the same can for three lay-ups and the other only for two. both of these engines had corrosion on the end (I don't recall which end - but I believe it was the hot end = 1&2 in a 455) exhaust valves. There was enough corrosion to prevent the valves from seating solidly. When the heads were broken down it was clear that those valves stems had not been protected adequately. The corrosion jammed the stems in the guides.
Fortunately, neither had hit a piston hard enough to be any concern. Because we were able to get into the job promptly, they only lost about a week of season. Valves were cleaned, touch ground, reseated and placed back in service.
In subsequent season's lay-ups both owners contracted me to lay-up engines and, in my case, always this comes with a free "watch and learn" if desired. Neither has had a bad fit-out since.
Conjecture here:
I personally believe that the fine atomization of the spray can fogging does not have the mass to resist the high temperature of the valve stem and it is in particles too small to have the inertia to carry it to the stem on the way out of the cylinder.
I hope that is an answer that makes sense to you.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Dennis Sexton
QUOTE Matt...
Conjecture here:
I personally believe that the fine atomization of the spray can fogging does not have the mass to resist the high temperature of the valve stem and it is in particles too small to have the inertia to carry it to the stem on the way out of the cylinder.
I hope that is an answer that makes sense to you.
Matt
End quote...
Matt,
Thanks for the expansion to your earlier post.
Do you use the oil treatment when you winterize your GMC?
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
Dennis Sexton
Robert Mueller wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 16:52
> Dennis,
>
> As you know Double Trouble is used three to four months a year and this procedure is simple enough to use for that period.
>
> It comes under the old adage of "it can't hurt."
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
Rob,
I agree, it can't hurt (if you do it correctly) -- I just don't recall any mention of this approach when folks talk about winterizing their GMC's. Perhaps I missed it...
Usually we talk about fill the fuel tanks, add Stabil, change the oil and such. Excluding all the house winterizing comments.
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
Matt Colie
Robert Mueller wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 21:01
> Matt,
>
> From what you, Jim, and others have noted it is important to get enough oil into the engine or it's a waste of time and you don't
> want to pour oil in if the engine isn't running as that could cause a hydro lock.
>
> To do so it appears you need to know two things:
>
> 1) how long it will take for the engine to die from fuel starvation
> 2) how fast to pour the oil into the carb so that you run out of oil at the same time the engine dies
>
> So you can provide empirical research to support Albert's theory, eh?!
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
Rob,
Have you got a nail someplace that you want to beat down? Do it now, you can't miss.....
If one has significant experience with carburated marine engines (marine carburetors are different than automotive), he has a good bet what the run time will be with the fuel shut off (most marine engines have this capability to draw from multiple or no tanks). If not, you can get a good feeling for when the idle gets rough and start pouring in oil for 15-20 seconds before the engine dies. I used to suggest that an owner shut the fuel off on the warm engine and see how long it runs. Then restart the the engine and use that as the time available to pour in oil. (Of course, If One Is a seasoned professional - ahem - this step is really not necessary.)
And yes, never EVER pour oil into a siting still engine that still has the spark plugs in it.
One could oil a cold engine, but it requires that you have the patience (as Johnny outlined) and enough arm to bar the engine through a number of turns.
Another note:
Marine engines have many problems of their own making and this makes the problem even more critical. The wet exhaust provides more than enough moisture to do serious damage. I have also, even still, run into corroded valve stems on shore side engines left too long without oiling.
There is still enough problems with a passcar service engine. A good friend left a Miata sitting too long and we have yet to get it to start.
Do I know more than that? . . Not Really . .
What I have learned would suggest that if you shut down a passcar motor by clearing the fuel system, you will have little trouble as long as you don't live someplace with significant humidity and/or vast temperature swings.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Matt Colie
Dennis S wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 21:58
> QUOTE Matt...
>
> Conjecture here:
> I personally believe that the fine atomization of the spray can fogging does not have the mass to resist the high temperature of the valve stem and it is in particles too small to have the inertia to carry it to the stem on the way out of the cylinder.
>
> I hope that is an answer that makes sense to you.
>
> Matt
>
> End quote...
>
> Matt,
>
> Thanks for the expansion to your earlier post.
> Do you use the oil treatment when you winterize your GMC?
>
> Dennis
Dennis,
I currently have no engines of my own that I store for the winter.
My GMC lives either in a heated barn or out in the cold (dry) and it still gets run at least once a month as the barn is also my service bay and the family passcars have to come in for regular services.
If I knew it was to be idle for more than six months, I would (or have a friend) oil it and dry out the carburetor. As messy, nasty and big a PITA as it is, it still beats having to take the engine apart because bare metal was unhappy about being left without protection from the moisture in the air.
The economy here is in the can and most of the owner's I used to still do the winterize for have sold their boats, but I still do a couple (1 tomorrow).
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Dennis Sexton
[quote title=Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 21:34
If I knew it was to be idle for more than six months, I would (or have a friend) oil it and dry out the carburetor. As messy, nasty and big a PITA as it is, it still beats having to take the engine apart because bare metal was unhappy about being left without protection from the moisture in the air.
Matt [/quote]
Matt,
Well, I have one I did not oil-shut-down -- the carb was dry, I poured oil over the rocker assemblies and closed it up.
My plan was to use a version of your "waking a hibernating engine, 7/09" for the restart.
Thanks again.
Dennis
--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Germantown, TN
Rob Mueller
Yeah, I know I am a pedantic SOB ain't I! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Rob,
Have you got a nail someplace that you want to beat down? Do it now, you can't miss.....
Matt
Matt Colie
Dennis S wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 22:48
> Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 28 October 2011 21:34
> > If I knew it was to be idle for more than six months, I would (or have a friend) oil it and dry out the carburetor. As messy, nasty and big a PITA as it is, it still beats having to take the engine apart because bare metal was unhappy about being left without protection from the moisture in the air.
> >
> > Matt
> Matt,
>
> Well, I have one I did not oil-shut-down -- the carb was dry, I poured oil over the rocker assemblies and closed it up.
> My plan was to use a version of your "waking a hibernating engine, 7/09" for the restart.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Dennis
Dennis,
Thank you for providing enough so I could re-read what I wrote over three years ago.... I did just now, but mostly out of curiosity.
Did you notice that most of the effort is to get lube oil where it is needed before the engine is fired? That is the single most critical issue.
It is also unfortunate that engines are made largely of a hydroscopic metal - iron. That makes cylinder walls, piston rings and exhaust valve stems particularly vulnerable. (Intake valves usually have an oil film and little heat stress.) Anything that usually lives in oil is not at great risk.
I have lived along the water all of my life, and the combination of that and the spring weather are real tough on anything that can rust.
If you are at all paranoid, you could still use a fogging spray on the cold engine. Keep the fuel out of the carburetor and hold it open while you crank and spray. I don't think this is as good as a hot oil treatment, but it will beat nothing by a whole lot. With the engine cold and at the low cranking speed, the fog will probably get to the exhaust valve stems. I have never done it this way, but I know of others that have and seem to be successful.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit