[GMCnet] Back On The Road / Onan MSD Ignition Kit Experience

[John Fredrikson via Gmclist]

I'm back on the road after 3 years in storage. I just got back from a 600 mile weekend with relatives in central MN. I had spent some time going
through things to make sure everything was ready for the weekend. We took some short trips to shake it down and I felt that things looked good enough
to go. I even got the A/C and cruise working. Within the first 20 miles of leaving home I wasn't able to hold speed going up hills. I figured that it
was a fuel filter, but there wasn't a parts store open for a hundred miles so I would get as much speed I could going down (about 55) and limp up the
hills (about 30). Sorry if I was holding anyone up on Hwy 61 between Grand Marais and Duluth, MN last Thursday night. I had my son pick up a filter in
Duluth and within 20 minutes I was able to go as fast as I needed for the rest of the trip. I had forgotten how fun these things are to drive!

Now that my enthusiasm has been renewed in the old coach I'm wanting to get to a couple of things that I didn't get to already. One thing is getting
the Onan running again. Before moving back to MN from GA where I bought the coach I had tried to convert the Onan ignition to a pertronics DIY setup.
I was never able to get it going and threw in the towel. I wasn't even able to get it running by converting it back to the original ignition. I gave
up and moved on. Now I'm thinking that this is the next project.

I have been thinking about the MSD ignition that JimK is selling, but haven't seen much about it mentioned in this group. Has anyone converted their
Onan to this type of ignition? I'm assuming the setup is easier that the DYI approach I was doing previously and it sounds like the spark is much
stronger. What do y'all think?

Thanks!

JohnF
Grand Marais, MN
1978 Eleganza
--
John Fredrikson
Fayetteville, GA
1978 Eleganza

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[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

John,
The MSD ignition conversion gives it a very positive two sparks on one
stroke and is very reliable.
No other system can do that.
Just noticed it is not on our new site, go to our old one for now.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1380

[John Fredrikson via Gmclist]

[quote title=jimk wrote on Mon, 15 July 2019 13:20]http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1380

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:17 AM Jim Kanomata wrote:

Thanks Jim! Yep, I found it on the old site.

Can you tell me what is involved in the install? Is it easier than the pertronics upgrade? It looks like it triggers off the original points system,
correct?

Thanks again,

John

[Deb McWade via Gmclist]

Interested in this as well. I have the Pertronix, but haven't got to installing it yet.
--
Deb McWade
Logan Lake, BC, CAN
"Li'l Sister"
'77 Kingsley, 403, EBL EFI;
TZE167V101404
It's Bigger on the Inside!

[John Fredrikson via Gmclist]

I had forgotten that when I was working on upgrading to the pertronics ignition I found out that the PO had upgraded to the Onan solid state ignition.
I'm not sure of it's condition since at the time I wasn't happy with the operation of the Onan, so It may be faulty, I just can't remember. I think I
need to go back to square one and start troubleshooting what I have and go from there. If I do decide to go with the MSD I do still have the original
points to use. I guess it's time to dig out the manuals and start troubleshooting.

John

[Jon Roche via Gmclist]

What year is your coach/onan?

the newer one's have a point system that is pretty easy to deal with. The older point systems for the average person need to be tossed aside. very
bad design. I had no issues with my bovee electronic ignition, but you should have a running onan prior to installing that.

spark is pretty simple to get going, I struggle with the carbs. a new coil is reasonable, and easy to troubleshoot. Also want to disconnect the
charging circuit if you have not already.


Was a hot weekend, even though the north shore is usually not as bad as central MN this time of year. a GMC trip up the north shore is on my bucket
list, but have not found time to do that yet.


--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

[John Fredrikson via Gmclist]

lqqkatjon wrote on Mon, 15 July 2019 17:53

> What year is your coach/onan?

I have a '78.

It was hot last weekend, but I do have my dash air working well thanks to this group. I do what to get the Onan working so I can run the roof air when
needed. I'll be working with what I have to try to get it going again before adding any more complexity to the issue.

I'm hoping that we can get it out more often than the past few years. Hopefully I can get out to some of the rallies some time.

--
John Fredrikson
Fayetteville, GA
1978 Eleganza

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

You need to get it working before trying to trick it out with MSD box.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

You are dealing with a very slow 1800 rpm 1800 sparks per minute device at low to medium compression levels. It is a wasted spark ignition and fires
both plugs at the same time. In a V-8 car the number of sparks per minute would be 7200 per minute at 1800 rpm. There is no acceleration to higher
rpm and no spark advance/retard involved on the Onan. It is really a very low tech ignition because that is all that is needed in this application.


The biggest problem with the Onan ignition is the mechanics and wear of the points system. So if you want to improve the ignition, the thing to
attack is the reliability and serviceability of the points. So improvement, or elimination of the mechanical points is what you want.

The MSD Capacitive Discharge system addresses a completely different issue which is lower less reliable spark voltage as the engine rpm or load
increases. I use to sell CD systems in the 1970's and they did a great job on higher rpm V-8 engines.
The MSD system uses the same mechanical points while increasing the voltage available to the plugs. It also reduces electrical wear on the contact
surface of the points but it does nothing to address the mechanical wear issues.

That said, Lawrence Gaskins went after the points reliability and wear issues dofferently by eliminating them. He developed the Petronix add on to
address mechanical push rod activated points problems. It does it very well.

I have installed many of these over the years. They just run, and run, and run because there is nothing mechanical to wear and no points to burn.

Gary Bovee took that DIY the we were doing and packaged it with a great set of instructions to make it even easier to install.

So if it were me, I would get the Onan going on the original points system first. Then install the Pertronix unit that you have or order a new one
with instructions from Gary Bovee and install it.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Stock points are operated by the camshaft in an ONAN. So, at 1825 RPM, the
points open 912 and 1/2 times. Gary Bovee's ignition kit, being crankshaft
flywheel triggered, does fire once per Revolution.
So, it behooves one to be cognizant of which ignition type you have.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

"different issue which is lower less reliable spark voltage as the engine rpm or load increases". I think it's the other way around Ken. Under high
load the mixture is more difficult to gap jump, which causes coil voltage to rise higher before arcing over and dumping the energy from the coil. Once
it dumps it dumps but the harder to jump, the higher the secondary voltage rise. Or am I backwards?
High RPM has the problem of incomplete 12 primary saturation, but that does not factor in in a fixed RPM system.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Somehow, that analysis doesn't quite seem right. I'm thinking it's going to light once per rev, as the pistons reach close to TDC. One side will be
on the exhaust stroke, and its spark will be wasted. The other side will be ion the compression stroke and its spark will fire that side. This is
why a pickoff using a magnet on the flywheel works.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

Proof is in the emission test.
When we install the MSD the exaust was at least 30% cleaner.
Done on same engine before and after run with standard ignition.
Why are new Onan units running with high output ignition if it is not
needed????
Have you been around an Onan when it runs?
Smell is sickening.
One factor is poor combustion.
Our unit with the high output does not smell that strong, why.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

https://www.gmcrvparts.com/product-p/gm28-28.044h.01.htm

[Ken Henderson via Gmclist]

I've no experience with the MSD system, but was one of the earliest to
follow Gaskins' lead with the Pertronix mod. The most dramatic improvement
it exhibited was the dependable, consistent spark creation. With the stock
ignition points, actuated by the camshaft through a straight push rod
through the engine block, the trace shown by a timing light was 1/2"-3/4"
wide blur. That indicates to me that the rod hesitates minutely on its
travel. The primary design engineer on our Onans admitted to us at a rally
that they had considerable trouble with that and had to keep retarding the
timing specification to compensate for it.

With the Pertronix mod, the timing light trace is a single sharp vertical
line -- no blurring whatsoever. That enabled us to advance the timing
several degrees without any detrimental effects. IF I still ran an Onan,
it would run Pertronix.

Ken H.

[Wally Anderson via Gmclist]

jtfred wrote on Mon, 15 July 2019 11:50

> I have been thinking about the MSD ignition that JimK is selling, but haven't seen much about it mentioned in this group. Has anyone converted
> their Onan to this type of ignition? I'm assuming the setup is easier that the DYI approach I was doing previously and it sounds like the spark is
> much stronger. What do y'all think?
>
> Thanks!
>
> JohnF
> Grand Marais, MN
> 1978 Eleganza

We did kind of the same thing with a used analog Crane HI-6N ignition box and GM DIS wasted spark coil. It works
https://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/search?q=onan
https://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/search?q=onan
--
Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Megasquirt III injection
Bob Stone hydroBOOOOST
Manny reaction arm system
Branscombe Kelsey Hayes park brake
http://wallyandsue.blogspot.com/

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

James Hupy wrote on Mon, 15 July 2019 23:53

> Stock points are operated by the camshaft in an ONAN. So, at 1825 RPM, the
> points open 912 and 1/2 times. Gary Bovee's ignition kit, being crankshaft
> flywheel triggered, does fire once per Revolution.
> So, it behooves one to be cognizant of which ignition type you have.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403

I am not trying to be pickey here but since the Onan uses a wasted spark ignition with one coil and the plugs wired in series with no distributor, the
points open (and close) once per revolution and both plugs fire at the same time. 1800 RPM equals 1800 point openings per minute. One plug ignites
fuel/air mix in the first cylinder while at the same time the second filers in the second cylinder where no compressed fuel/ air mix is available. So
it accomplishes nothing (hence the term wasted spark). On the next revolution the cylinders and plugs switch roles with the opposite cylinder burning
fuel and providing power. Many 2 cylinder engines (Motorcycles, Lawn mowers, etc.) use this simpler wasted spark system.

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

Bull.

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

Jim,
I do not want to pick an argument. I do not understand what you are arguing with me about in the first place. It is an unimportant point anyway that
we do not need to discuss any more. So please just let it die.

Ken

[Ken Burton via Gmclist]

For those who are interested here is a quick Wikipedia posting on "wasted spark" ignitions like we have on our Onans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark

I am not sure what Jim is unhappy about but I do to intend to respond any more to this topic since this was an insignificant point in the first place
and does not need any additional discussion from me.

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

I am not arguing with you. I don't know where the bull came from. A slip
of the thumb, I guess.
I have worked on dozens of ONAN twins. The camshaft, which turns at
1/2 the crankshaft speed, and has a lobe on the camshaft that opens the
points. When the lobe opens the points, you are correct that BOTH PLUGS
fire simultaneously. One of the cylinders is near TDC on the compression
stroke, the other is TDC exhaust stroke. This is a "wasted spark" ignition.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

If that's the case (now I have to go look at one of mine), how is it that a single magnet on the flywheel, which produces one spark per round, works?
Does it waste two sparks every other rev?
Also, if that's the case, and it sparks every other rev, one cylinder will never fire because it will always see a spark only on the exhaust stroke.
No?

I'll look (I have two in the garage) and report back.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[James Hupy via Gmclist]

4 stroke engines only require a spark every other revolution. The waste
spark on the ONAN and Harley's doesn't do much as there is RARELY a
combustible mixture present on TDC exhaust.
But, CRANKSHAFT TRIGGERED IGNITIONS DO FIRE EVERY RPM. The wasted
sparks don't do much there, either.
Jim Hupy

[Jim Miller via Gmclist]

Guys - The points fire the plugs on EVERY REVOLUTION of the crank; . Yes, Jim is of course correct that the cam rotates at 1/2 crank speed but there are two lobes on the cam driving the points plunger so Ken is correct that there are 1800 sparks per minute. I’ve developed three electronic ignition methods for the Onan and I know it intimately.

—Jim

[gene Fisher via Gmclist]

And we don’t care

--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html

[Charles Boyd via Gmclist]

Well I certainly find it informative and interesting information about the modified Onans waisted spark system. Especially about stronger and
multiple sparking systems firing on the exhaust stroke which helps burn unburned gases which go into the atmosphere. I feel more comfortable sleeping
over a gas burning engine that has lower emissions and less exhaust smell. Crane makes an electronic kit to make Harley's a single fire system using
2 coils but I believe it still starts and idles on dual fire, probably to aid exhaust emissions tests?








Mr ERFisher wrote on Wed, 17 July 2019 09:57

> And we don't care
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 6:48 AM Jim Miller via Gmclist <
> gmc...@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
> > Guys - The points fire the plugs on EVERY REVOLUTION of the crank; . Yes,
> > Jim is of course correct that the cam rotates at 1/2 crank speed but there
> > are two lobes on the cam driving the points plunger so Ken is correct that
> > there are 1800 sparks per minute. I've developed three electronic ignition
> > methods for the Onan and I know it intimately.
> >

> > --Jim

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

https://www.gmcrvparts.com/product-p/gm28-28.044f.57.1.htm

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

I know we have been to GMC MH Rallies where the geneeators were runing and
the smell of Hydrocarbon was so strong, people were complaining.
I have been using the CAT for a year and have never had to make excuses for
smell.
I learned about this from Jim Miller, so I contacted a manufacturer that
does the CAT for the fire departments chain saw as they do not wat to be
overcome by CO and smell.
We have supplied around douzen units and have received very positive
feedback.

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Both of the ones in my shop open the points once per rev, by direct inspection. Mr. Miller's explanation is why. Thanks.

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

[John R. Lebetski via Gmclist]

Poor points mechanism performance and waste spark ignition are separate issues entirely. Waste spark ignition can be simple as in Onan or Harley or
advanced computer controled as in GM LC2 or 3800 series. If your points are sloppy adding CD will make a more powerful sloppy spark. If your points
are working ok they run fine.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Jim Kanomata via Gmclist]

John,
Don't you agree a sloppy strong spark is better than a weak spark?
I know when I put a engine on a smog machine and adjust ignition timing, I
find very little difference until I go over 5 degrees.

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
ji...@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

[John Fredrikson via Gmclist]

jimk wrote on Wed, 17 July 2019 14:46

> John,
> Don't you agree a sloppy strong spark is better than a weak spark?
> I know when I put a engine on a smog machine and adjust ignition timing, I
> find very little difference until I go over 5 degrees.

That is why I'm asking the question. I don't know.

I guess my take away is that I should get it up and running before I try to switch to either the MSD or the Pertronics. Especially he MSD since the
MSD uses the push rod timing to trigger off of if I am understanding it correctly. I just need to find the time to put things back together and follow
the ignition troubleshooting process to see if I can get it firing with what I have and then go from there. I do think that there would be a value in
getting it to run with less fumes. On the other hand I have a lot of respect for Ken's opinion. He helped me a lot when I first bought the coach and I
had the opportunity to get to know him a bit.

I can say that if I do go with the Pertronics I'll give you a call.

Thanks,

John

--
John Fredrikson
Fayetteville, GA
1978 Eleganza

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Mr. Fisher uses the Editorial 'we' :)

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell