[GMCnet] DuraCool at home

[Richard]

Emery (and everyone),


Can you comment on experience using DuraCool in a standard home HVAC system?

I put it in my Palm Beach years ago and have been very happy.


Thx
--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach



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[Emery Stora]

Home air conditioning systems used R22 instead of R12.

You can buy a Duracool replacement (HC22a) for house air conditioners.

They are not designed for R12 or R12 Duracool.

Emery Stora

[Matt Colie]

bukzin wrote on Wed, 28 June 2017 20:56

> Emery (and everyone),
>
>
> Can you comment on experience using DuraCool in a standard home HVAC system?
>
> I put it in my Palm Beach years ago and have been very happy.
>
> Thx

Bukzin,

Most home units are R-22. There is an HC replacement, but it is not DuraCool and I don't remember what it is.

The thing to remember is that the halogenated hydrocarbons (R-11,12,22,502etc) were created to get away from the nasty things like NH3 (toxic) and CO2
(high pressures), but at the time, propane (part of duracool) was already being used as a refrigerant, but there was not way to patent it.

I have experience with all the "environmental disaster" refrigerants, but am too old to have been really dragged into the new versions.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

[Richard]

If I recall you can upgrade an old system first to R134 then to DuraCool for RV's etc.

Would that also apply to a home system?

--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach

[Richard]

Emery,

Would I get them same improvements in cooling and reduced power consumption

as I did in my GMC?


Do you have a link to those products?

[A.]

bukzin wrote on Wed, 28 June 2017 19:56

> Emery (and everyone),
> Can you comment on experience using DuraCool in a standard home HVAC system?
>
> I put it in my Palm Beach years ago and have been very happy.
>
> Thx

The only thing wrong with charging a residential HVAC system with the HC-based substitutes is that it is illegal. Not for any sound scientific or
technical reason, just that the lobbyists for the CFC patent holders scared your legislators into passing laws against it.

[Dennis Sexton]

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/?site=dom

R290 under the refrigerant tab - note it is "not approved for HVAC home units in USA."




bukzin wrote on Wed, 28 June 2017 20:12

> Emery,
>
> Would I get them same improvements in cooling and reduced power consumption
>
> as I did in my GMC?
>
>
> Do you have a link to those products?

--

Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro

[Emery Stora]

No, it is not illegal. Stationary systems such as produce and meat coolers, freezers and buildings are legal. Hydrocarbon based refrigerants are commonly used for those applications.

If it doesn't have wheels it's legal.

Emery Stora

[Dolph Santorine]

Some HVAC Vendors like Goodman have approved R-422 as a replacement for R-22

It’s not that R-22 is not available (it is - at $825 per jug… that’s $225 for the refrigerant and $600 for the UN)

We used Duracool R-290 for a while, and then moved to R-424 (also marketed as “Acme Cool 77”. They were good, but voided the compressor warranties (generally 10 years), and required evacuating and nitrogen purging the system before charging. We calculated for a 20% loss in cooling capacity.

The R-422 seems to work at 100% in an R-22 system. I still have to purge the system before charging, but otherwise it’s a drop in replacement (no change in lubricants). $225 per jug, too!

It also makes my trips to London, Ontario purely personal (visiting a friend sons), and I don’t have to pick up the jugs of R-290.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[A.]

emerystora wrote on Wed, 28 June 2017 20:31

> No, it is not illegal. Stationary systems such as produce and meat coolers, freezers and buildings are legal. Hydrocarbon based refrigerants are
> commonly used for those applications.
>
> If it doesn't have wheels it's legal.
>
> Emery Stora

It IS illegal in RESIDENTIAL HVAC systems, as I stated.

Not illegal in industrial or retail refrigeration systems.

[Ken Burton]

http://www.tscstores.com/DURACOOL-22A-AIR-CONDITIONING-RECHARGE-KIT-P18003.aspx

http://www.duracool.com/ecom/shoppingcart.html




--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[John R. Lebetski]

Bigger question is where is your R22 going in a copper system with hermetic compressor. Unless you find and repair the issue it will continue to leak.
Besides bad solder joints it can be as simple as tightening a nut at a joint to the evaporator. After 3 AC guys I simply tigtened the nut on the tube
before the expansion valve about 1/8 turn at my old house. No more annual top off required.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Justin Brady]

JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 29 June 2017 10:19

> Bigger question is where is your R22 going in a copper system with hermetic compressor. Unless you find and repair the issue it will continue to
> leak. Besides bad solder joints it can be as simple as tightening a nut at a joint to the evaporator. After 3 AC guys I simply tigtened the nut on
> the tube before the expansion valve about 1/8 turn at my old house. No more annual top off required.

I wonder which of the 3 AC guys backed it off so they could top you up every year :lol:
--
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455

[roy keen]

I wonder which of the 3 AC guys backed it off so they could top you up every year :lol: [/quote]


In all my years as a commercial A/C mechanic I never considered causing a leak for future work as I was always busy fixing stuff that needed my help.
Customers don't like it when they have too keep having the same problem raise its ugly head.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[Adolph Santorine]

Amen, Roy.

Most service companies are honorable members of the community. Competency varies. But decent folks.

Dolph Santorine

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
1-ton, Sullybuilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010,

[Ken Burton]

Dolph Santorine wrote on Thu, 29 June 2017 11:30

> Amen, Roy.
>
> Most service companies are honorable members of the community. Competency varies. But decent folks.
>
> Dolph Santorine
>
> DE AD0LF
>
> Wheeling, West Virginia

Yea Right!

My house AC quit. I called a friend who sent out a well known AC company he worked with to repair it. The company declared the outside unit
(compressor/condenser) not salvageable and needed to be replaced. They would call me with a repair estimate.

I went out and found the 24 volt wire from the house to the unit open and repaired it. That not salvageable until has been running now for at least
20 years.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Ken Burton]

Had a similar issue at my daughter's. She was told she had to replace the entire system as R-22 systems are no longer sold. I went over there and
replaced the motor start capacitor and it has run fine for several years.

[Dolph Santorine]

I know where you’re coming from, Ken, but those look like competency issues to me.

Dolph

DE AD0LF

Wheeling, West Virginia

1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach

1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010

“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"

[roy keen]

Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 29 June 2017 11:07

> Had a similar issue at my daughter's. She was told she had to replace the entire system as R-22 systems are no longer sold. I went over there
> and replaced the motor start capacitor and it has run fine for several years.

that kind of bad behavior is more likely to happen with small independent shops then larger Union shops that service mostly larger companies that are
regular customers. If I were to tell Bank of America or K Mart they needed to replace a very expensive system because I wanted to sell them a new
system rather then fix the old one with out just cause I would have been likely terminated. On the other hand small home owner repairs are mostly
dependent on the honesty of the independent co and its employees unfortunately bad things do happen . There is no way that I would have been happy
with myself telling some little gal she needed to spend big bucks for a new system when a new condenser fan and capacitor would have fixed the unit.
Like bad auto shops exist so do other service co. Hopefully they don't stay in business long.

--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[Richard]

I do not have any leaks on the system in question. Seems to be working fine but costs for power are very high
in this part of the world.


Just looking at getting more efficiency and lower current draw.

--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach

[John R. Lebetski]

So you would have to recover or somehow make room for HC22 by removing expensive R22 to try to gain efficiency that might be measured in pennies? If
your pressures are correct according to the tables on a given weather day, leave it alone.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[A.]

JohnL455 wrote on Fri, 30 June 2017 08:13

> So you would have to recover or somehow make room for HC22 by removing expensive R22 to try to gain efficiency that might be measured in pennies?
> If your pressures are correct according to the tables on a given weather day, leave it alone.

Electrical consumption has been documented as 10 - 20% lower with HC22 vs R22. A shame it is illegal in residential central AC systems, as it would
make a significant difference in efficiency. That's real dollars, not pennies.

I considered charging one of mine illegally myself when it ran low of R22 a few years ago. But I came to the conclusion that the next time it is
worked on might be under a new owner, and a technician could end up contaminating a lot of R22 when he recovers the stuff into his recovery tank.

So I paid $200 for the pound or two of R22 and labor to inject it.

[roy keen]

Buzkin how bad is your power bill mine is around $50 or$60 a month lately but should be $100 or so this month as it has been a hundred degrees the
past 2 weeks. My 30 year old 5 ton unit doesn't run continuesly and the house is 3,000 square feet . You should have good insulation and dual pane
Windows too keep the cool air where it belongs. Also a good digital thermostat set around 78 degrees is helpful. Is your liquid line not hot but warm
too the touch? The suction line should be cool and a little sweaty. The air temperature difference before and after the evaporate coil should be
around 21 or 22 degrees if it is much colder you may have a dirty coil if not as much TD you may be low on charge? R22 is a good refrigerant I'm
sorry I sold the extra 400 lbs I had when I retired for only $100 20 years ago cause now I'm out of it.

--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[Richard]

Good tips/info

I will check the line-sets in the heat of the afternoon. Do have a good wifi stat, Ecobee3

I live in a 65 year old home that is not very tight.


Electric bills in summer run $400 to $500 per month.


Thx

--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach

[Thomas Phipps]

The NEST thermostat I installed in my house appears to be reducing electrical energy usage. Happy with it. Should pay for it's cost within the next
few months.
I also installed a hybrid heat pump hot water heater. The ROI is about four years, but target is $130 per year vs $450.
Considered geothermal, but local real estate appraisers that I called had no idea even what the question was. Maybe if I was about 20 years younger.
Our projected electrical costs are estimated to double due to closing of coal fired power plants. Natural gas is coming, but dates years) are
uncertain.
Non GMC, but still interesting. Looking for the elusive flux capacitor.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion
KA4CSG

[A.]

bukzin wrote on Sun, 02 July 2017 00:45

> Good tips/info
> I will check the line-sets in the heat of the afternoon. Do have a good wifi stat, Ecobee3
>
> I live in a 65 year old home that is not very tight.
>
> Electric bills in summer run $400 to $500 per month.
>
> Thx

It sounds like you are still contemplating replacing the R22 in your residential HVAC system with hydrocarbon-based refrigerant.

Besides being illegal, you also have to consider the possibility that, sometime in the future, a technician will recover your propane into his R22
tank, contaminating what could be a quite a bit of R22.

Don't do it. It would save you some real dollars, but don't do it.

[roy keen]

Gee if your house is 65 years old that would put it at around a 1952 year construction. Very few houses were built then with air conditioning in mind.
Most had no insulation in the walls and very little in the attic also non under the floors. The windows were also single pane. If this is the case you
would need to replace the Windows with double pane I replaced my original aluminum frame double pane Windows with vinyl frame low E double pane
Windows myself that I got from Home Depot .This did help a bit as the low E glass blocked the hot Suns rays from coming thru the glass. If you don't
have insulation you can get it blown into the walls and ceiling area and put batting under the floors. At $400 plus a month electric it should be
worth the trouble and expense if you plan to stay there. I don't know how big a house you have or the a/c size but it probably isn't bigger then mine
or you would have multiple units for sure. I am in northern Nevada probibly 150 miles east of you so my summers probibly aren't to deferent from yours
except for elevation. Just a thought to help you keep the cool air in and hot air out . Works well in winter too.

--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[John R. Lebetski]

On that note---do you have an attic fan to keep attic temps more reasonable? That would make a much bigger improvement than changing refrigerants.
Made huge differences in my last two houses. The best atic fans are jetfan, made in USA sealed motors and balanced blades and spun aluminum housings.
They have low Amp draw and thermostats and humidistats

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Richard]

JohnL455 wrote on Sun, 02 July 2017 16:45

> On that note---do you have an attic fan to keep attic temps more reasonable? That would make a much bigger improvement than changing
> refrigerants. Made huge differences in my last two houses. The best atic fans are jetfan, made in USA sealed motors and balanced blades and spun
> aluminum housings. They have low Amp draw and thermostats and humidistats

John, that brand of fans sound excellent, did not know about it.


In our part of California the summer nights often do not cool down at night.
The other night it was 90 at midnight.

With those high temps a attic {whole house} fan is not a huge help.
I do use mine around dawn but the impact, in my case, is low.

--
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach

[John R. Lebetski]

If you can get the attic down to 95 at night that is at the thermostat shut off point and way down from 140 or so it would be at dusk. I think the
model 727 only draws 3 Amps @ 125V.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Lessee... 500 a month is 6 Large a year. Which makes me think insulating the hell out of the place would opay out in 5 years or less. 15,000 on
insulating if ity gave a half price power bill would pay out in 5. And there might be a tax break for costs of insulation.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[John R. Lebetski]

Don't confuse a whole house fan with an attic ventilator fan. Both are good but different. In hot areas you want an attic ventilator such as a Jetfan
727 to work in concert with your aircond by tempering sky high attic temps. Whole house is good when temps are cool off outside to remove interior
heat in a hurry. Both cool the attic and having an attic fan also provides another exit vent path for the whole house fan.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Mike Kelley]

To John L.:
So, if you had to choose between the two - which would you choose and why?
Mike/The Corvair a holic
Peoria, IL.

Sent from my iPhone

[Ken Burton]

Mike, around here they usually build houses with multiple roof vents that passively move heat out of the attic to the outside while pulling in cooler
fresh air in vents cut in the soffits. I think I have about 8 of them in the roof. An attic vent fan does the same as the roof vent only under
power to possibly move more air. I do not know how they build house vents out west but I would assume they are similar. If it is a peaked roof they
some times put the roof vents in the ends of the house near the peaks.

A whole house vent fan draws air from inside the house and exhausts it into the attic or direct outside. That is an entirely different animal.
Around here it is not very beneficial because when it is hot it is also usually very humid. So drawing air in also drags in a lot of humidity.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[Johnny Bridges via Gmclist]

Around here the run a linear vent along the ridge line. Keeps the attic under 100 usually. Easily installed when the roof's being replaced and
inexpensive.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

[Dennis Sexton]

Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 06 July 2017 08:51

> Around here the run a linear vent along the ridge line. Keeps the attic under 100 usually. Easily installed when the roof's being replaced and
> inexpensive.
>
> --johnny

Johnny

In 2010 Georgia building specs no longer allowed powered attic exhaust fans (except solar) for new construction. Studies found that power fans cool
attics mostly by pulling cooled ac air through the various leak points in the ceiling. Passive ridge vents are great if the home has enough ridge
length. Lots of homes also have inadequate soffit venting. The continues vent seems the best but they can get restricted by too heavy paint
application.

I've installed a radiant barrier (reflective material) on the underside of our roof rafters and it has substantially lowered our attic temps.

For new construction they sell a plywood with reflective barrier attached to the back.

Dennis



--
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro

[roy keen]

A couple of years ago when my ashvault shingle roof was replaced they added half a dozen small vents at the ridge to comply with current code.

--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

[John R. Lebetski]

The trend is away from mushroom vents and toward ridge vents in new construction. The ridge vents are then filled with a strip of open cell foam to
keep bugs and blown rain out. They are then very compromised at venting a usable amount of air. My house has full perimeter eve vents and a full ridge
vent but attic was scorching until I put in 2 attic fans (2 required due to attic volume but on one stat). Now the cool air enters at the eves and
exhausts at fans at top. Jeff the fan man says he sees this all the time with ridge vents where the attic is unbearable. They look like they would
convection flow well but do not. My cooling bills are way down. My suggestion is stay away from home center fans even Broan as the first hail storm
ruins the plastic cover and the motors only last a few seasons. Once the open frame motors pick up dust and dirt they overheat.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Thomas Phipps]

To help with the hot attic, I added a solar-powered attic fan from Costco. You can barely hear it run, but when the sun is shining, it is moving air.
Lots of hot Summer days here in lower Alabama.
Ridge vents would be nice, but builder just installed attic fan with eve vents

Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion
KA4CSG

[Richard Denney]

My house has ridge vents, but not open-cell foam, which would last long
enough. Mine were installed with an expanded metal screen to keep out bugs,
and I've never had a problem with rain (or snow, for that matter).

Temps in my attic are not that hot, but my house also has sizeable gable
vents.

Current trends are driven by cost engineering, but one can specify better
materials.

Rick "the powered fan was removed 25 years ago" Denney

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 9:54 AM John R. Lebetski <gransp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

[Sean Kidd]

Not to confuse the issue, but there is an emergence of alternate, non-hydrocarbon based refrigerants.

This company approached my client with a "free" application to prove their performance...this is an organic additive that reduces overall refrigerant
percentage...

http://www.bluonenergy.com/refrigeration/

Food for thought.

--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.

Colonial Travelers

[Emery Stora]

Looking at the site you provided I didn’t see anything that really interested me. The boiling point is higher than the others listed. The lower the boiling point, the better the refrigerant.
It didn’t list one of the most important things — the latent heat of vaporization. I would want to know what that is before I would even consider using it. As to it being an organic additive, all of the things list are organic.
That just means that it has carbon atoms. They just don’t give enough information for a knowledgeable person to make a decision.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 9:14 AM, Sean Kidd <Sean...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> Not to confuse the issue, but there is an emergence of alternate, non-hydrocarbon based refrigerants.
>
> This company approached my client with a "free" application to prove their performance...this is an organic additive that reduces overall refrigerant
> percentage...
>
> http://www.bluonenergy.com/refrigeration/
>
> Food for thought.
>
> --
> Sean and Stephanie
> 73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
> Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
>

[Keith V]

So in other words.

Snake Oil

________________________________
From: Gmclist <gmclist...@list.gmcnet.org> on behalf of Emery Stora <emery...@icloud.com>
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 12:19:26 PM
To: gmc...@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] DuraCool at home

[Bryan Hayes]

We've had persistent problems with our 16-year-old R22-based home A/C system icing up when the evening temp drops to around 55 degrees during the
spring and fall. We had an HVAC company take a look at it several years ago. The technician told me the refrigerant pressure was low, and the low
pressure was causing the icing condition. He recommended not topping it off because there may be a leak in the system, and it would be a waste of
money.

He then recommended we purchase a new $5,000 system that used the newer refrigerant.

Needless to say, we passed, and we just keep an eye on the outside temperatures to make sure we turn the A/C off before the evening temperature falls.
I don't think we have a leak in the system, but I think the problem stems from us having the compressor unit moved from the back porch (a really dumb
location) to the side of the garage, which meant running an extra 30+ feet of line set. I'm not sure the techs topped off the R22 after the move to
account for the longer line set. Now I'm concerned that it's just going to be crazy expensive to top it off.
--
Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah

[Ken Burton]

Grab some R-22 while you can. It will not take much to top it off. If it had a persistent leak, all , or most, of it would have leaked out by now.


Basically add some R-22 and watch the evaporator temperature. Add until you get the evap temperature above 32F. I usually go for about 40 degrees.


You are done.

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

[John R. Lebetski]

R22 is cheap if you only need a little. Your symptoms point that way. Also check for not enough airflow across the evaporator. With proper charge your
compressor will be happier.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[John R. Lebetski]

Watched the video. They give the new pressures and Amp draw, but not the original data to compare it to.

--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

[Bryan Hayes]

Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 10 July 2017 18:38
> ...If it had a persistent leak, all , or most, of it would have leaked out by now.


Thanks, Ken, my thoughts exactly. It's had the same behavior for years.

--
Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah

[Terry]

Make sure the evaporator core is clean, not covered with an insulating layer of permanent dust that inhibits heat transfer. Easy to get to in the GMC.
Reduced conduction can make a difference.
Reduced airflow will also make a significant difference and can cause freezing. All sorts of obstructions have been found in evaporators I have had
to replace because of corrosion and subsequent leakage caused by the dirt buildup. GMCs don't get a lot of leaves in there, but Mickey really likes to
bring insulation and leave it and nutshells in so many little, protected places, like dormant air conditioning systems.
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.