Shop room floorplan proposal, now with many more items

[Brian Bartholomew]

This one is substantially more real than the last one, includes a lot
more items. I eagerly await discussion and feedback.

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop2.svg

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

Oops. Now includes the jointer and granite surface plate.

I think my new slogan should be: "Show us the floorplan". Want a CNC
flatbed that holds a 4x8' sheet? A parade float? Welding area?
Paint spray booth? Great! Communicate your idea to us by showing us
the floorplan!

Inkscape format with tool placements, Firefox will display it:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop3.svg

Blank floorplans for whole space:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/west-floorplan.dxf
http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/west-floorplan.pdf

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

Oops, forgot the scroll saw.

Fireball has a side table to the side, and behind it

Fireball and table could be replaced by a future larger CNC flatbed

Lathe has a side table, which is a full table for other uses
when lathe not in use

Mill has the wire rack for a side table, which accepts heavier
and oilier things like the vise without scraping or denting

Dust collector works fine as-is without integration of cyclone

Dust collector plumbing could begin with a piece of 4" hose
which sits on the floor in use

Spare mobile tool base could go on wood bandsaw

Inkscape format with tool placements, Firefox will display it:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop4.svg

[rfEngineers]

Since Brian has moved the laser cutter back into the 3d printer room
I've come up with a redesign to try and make the printers more easily
accessible.

The redesign  changes the computer room into the computer control room. 
The display window is moved to the wall separating the control room from
the 3d room.  A 2x8-foot desktop intended for user's laptops is placed
in the control-room in front of the window.  A tall 2x8-foot bench with
under-bench storage is placed in the 3d room in view of the window.

The doors from the 3d room leading to the project and machine rooms are
locked and can only be opened from inside the 3d room (emergency only
use perhaps?).  The only access to the 3d room is via the control room.

This places all of the noxious fume producing devices in one, vented,
room.  Users can control and observe the printers through the window in
the control room.

See attached sketch.

I will also post this on Slack

JoeD

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[Frank]

I'm thinking that locking the doors to the 3d room could be restricting human traffic flow and be a safety issue if someone in the front of the machine room where blocked from exiting towards the back. Perhaps some red lit signs stating " DO NOT OPEN LASER IN USE" would be better.

Frank

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> <3d print rm.pdf>

[Joseph DiPietro]

Frank, I don't follow. Are you proposing that people should exit the machine room through the 3d room?

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[Brian Bartholomew]

> This places all of the noxious fume producing devices in one,
> vented, room.

I like that, the 3D printers get obnoxious when printing other than PLA.

I think the motivation is to keep 3D printer hands-on tending foot
traffic from intersecting with laser cutter hands-on tending foot
traffic? The new aisle to the left of the 3D print bench is narrower
than a door. People can't pass each other there, and the intersection
with laser traffic is under the "136 sq ft" label. Compare that with
westshop4.svg, where with the 3D printer aisles coalesced there's a
doorway's width for one person tending the laser to walk behind one
person tending a printer.

What still doesn't fit is a group of four standing in a circle talking
in front of a printer. In the 6th St. building all the spaces are
narrow capilaries, and conversation units clog pathways everywhere.
Conversation units float around looking for a more square space; only
the front room is wide enough for a round conversation unit expanding
to its natural size. Removing the duplicate wall will help there.

Crews mentioned putting the 3D printers in metal shelving units rather
than on tables, so the volume above and below would be storage.
Perhaps one shelf below and one above.

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

How about, rotate the laser cutter to be in-line with the row of 3D printers.

Then there would be a couple feet of table to the right of it, where a laptop
could be placed. and a folding chair for someone to sit and tend the printer
without crossing back and forth past the 3D printer users.

Brian

[Joseph DiPietro]

Brian, it is necessary to get to both sides of the 3d printer. The narrow isle between the 3d bench and the observation window is for occasional access. Only one person at a time will need to use it.

3d printer jobs take hours, laser cut jobs take minutes. There is no need for a chair at the laser. 3d observers can sit in the control room. We can also place cameras to monitor 3d jobs and make pictures available off site. You can go to a website and check on your print job.

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[Frank]

Currently people pass through the 3d room to get to the machine room. To make it so that the only way to get to the machine room is to go through the loading dock area I think could be quite inconvenient, especially when there are large numbers of people congrigating in the project room. If there were to be a fire at the back end of the room along the wall where the electrical panel is one could be trapped with no exit at the front end.

Just a few things to think about.

Frank

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[Joseph DiPietro]

We could move the door connecting 3d-to-project down the wall a few feet so it connects machine-to-project. Now machine and 3d each have two exits.

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[Frank]

My guess is the laser cutter would be the source of most of the noxious fumes. Would it be worthwhile to put it in an enclosed cabinet that vents to the outside for better fume containment?

Also, has there been anymore thought on removing the wall between the 3d room and the machine room? Pros and cons...

Frank


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[Frank]

That's a thought.

Sent from my iPad

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[Joseph DiPietro]

That's why the laser is closest to the vent.

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[Eddie Reid]

Here are my thoughts, I believe that this floorplan opens up the space, provides more storage and if we don't need the door to the computer lab accessible we have more space for 3D printer or shelfing.

The shelfs for the 3D printers should have large shelfs for them and smaller ones for storage above and below. The 3D printer shelfs could also be on rack mount slides so that that they could be pulled out, so that we can access all sides. We could put plexiglass door on them as well if we found some money.

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[Brian Bartholomew]

> 3d printer jobs take hours, laser cut jobs take minutes. There is no
> need for a chair at the laser. 3d observers can sit in the control
> room. We can also place cameras to monitor 3d jobs and make pictures
> available off site. You can go to a website and check on your print job.

The traffic problem I saw on Tuesday was: four persons in a lesson how
a 3D printer worked, while you were using the electronics bench for a
laptop desk and operating the laser. With the linear file cabinets
present there wasn't width to move past the printer lesson without
threading the center of the group. Because of prototypes you had to
push the start button then rush across both the main corridor and the
printer lesson to see how the laser moved.

So I'm thinking, make it possible to sit in front of the laser when
doing something that interactive, and have table space for a laptop.
Laptop spot will also serve interactive 3D printer use. Remove the
file cabinets to increase aisle width, the show and tell lesson is a
natural arrangement. Lean over the printers to get to the backs, or
stacked two high on pullout shelves.

Brian

[Allen Rout]

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 2:28 PM, 'Brian Bartholomew' via Gainesville
Hackerspace <gainesville...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> or
> stacked two high on pullout shelves.
>

... Having just installed two full-extension drawers in my kitchen,
this sounds very interesting to me. If the shelves are installed on
McMaster-Carr heavy-duty shelving rails, we could have a bank of
printer pods, even three high; one at tabletop height, one
inconveniently low, one inconveniently high. :) Inconveniently high
might not even be inconvenient, if we have one of those round library
2-step stepstools on wheels.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GN7QWA/

I've been musing about our growing profligacy of printers, and
thinking about how to keep them from overflowing. This might be a
winner; if it's not just ludicrously overengineered, we could
close-pack a wall full of printers, 9 or 12. We'd get to the point,
machine-room-like, where power and cooling become the dominant
concern.

- Allen S. Rout

[Joseph DiPietro]

I use the laser regularly. I don't wish to be near it when it's running. I intentionally placed my laptop in another room just so that I can operate remotely.

I'm not a regular user of the 3d printers. I have been told, in no uncertain terms, by some that do 3d print that they MUST have access to both sides of the printer, just like they did downtown.

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[Joseph DiPietro]

Further, Tuesday night was an anomaly. In normal use there is only one, sometimes two, at the printer.

[Christopher Hoffman]

Finally had a chance to catch up on this thread. As for access to backside of 3D printers, its not necessary to have full walk-around access. As long as the printer can be rotated (like they can be today) to load/unload spools on the backside, that is more than adequate. 

I believe 3D printers are some of the wow-factors of our space, its a symbol of "high tech making" that is "in" these days. There is a lot of excitement around them, it might be helpful for recruitment and first impressions if they were visible from the entrance. There was a suggestion when we first moved in of putting the 3D printers around where the snackerspace is, or even near the very front where the bookshelf is. That way when people come in, they are greeted with making and tools, rather than couch and fridge.

What would the space look like if the current 3D printing room became home to the snackerspace, fridge and vending machines? Would there be enough space there for those?

Sincerely,

Christopher Hoffman

President, Gainesville Hackerspace

pres...@gainesvillehackerspace.org

https://www.gainesvillehackerspace.org

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[Joseph DiPietro]

Chris, the problem is it gets really hot up front on summer afternoons.

Also, wouldn't venting be an issue?

Finally, I don't think it's a good idea to put fancy expensive-looking stuff where stupid people can see it by looking in the window. Stupid people do stupid things and should not be encouraged.

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[Allen Rout]

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Joseph Floyd <jfloy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Like this guy's? https://youtu.be/kbT0B1WS95I
>


Mmm. Well, I'd have to leave it to the printer folks to tender
opinions on the functional use of the device in the video, but I'd
call that eminently doable. It's very like how I built my
entertainment center.

If we don't glue all the joints, but just do pocket screws, it even
becomes a completely takedownable surface, in case we decide in a year
that it sucks.


- Allen S. Rout

[Allen Rout]

On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Joseph DiPietro <rfeng...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Finally, I don't think it's a good idea to put fancy expensive-looking stuff
> where stupid people can see it by looking in the window. Stupid people do
> stupid things and should not be encouraged.
>

Not going to weigh in on heat and vents; who knows, we may have a
fully vented roof soon! WHAT FUN!

But I think the space where the printers are should be _primarily_
good for working, and only secondarily good for P.R. I find that
'good for working' tends to be actively hostile for PR, because it's
showing how the sausage is made, all the time.

Now: for demo night, that's a different story. I'm making stuff up
here, but we could have a printer chosen for its photogenic nature,
and an object chosen for a combination of pretty and clear progress
over the time range of demo night. Then we wheel the showboat printer
out to where it's obvious on demo night, start the showboat print, and
wheel it back in at the end of the evening.

I could easily make an enclosure similar to Joe's video suggestion,
but sized for a single printer above and one below; then it could get
wheels.

It could also be part of the travelling show. Taking the cupcake
somewhere, and having a print going while I was giving talks, was
always a popular option.

- Allen S. Rout

[Robert Munyer]

Christopher Hoffman wrote:

> I believe 3D printers are some of the wow-factors of our space,
> its a symbol of "high tech making" that is "in" these days. There

> is a lot of excitement around them, it might be helpful for first
> recruitment and impressions if they were visible from the entrance.

For "wow factor" on first impression, even better would be a
Botsy drawing on the internal window (the one between what's
now the presentation room and what's now the computer room).

-- Robert

[Joseph DiPietro]

But but but I want to move that window!

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[Robert Munyer]

I wrote:

> For "wow factor" on first impression, even better would be a
> Botsy drawing on the internal window (the one between what's
> now the presentation room and what's now the computer room).

The word "drawing" was meant as a participle, not a noun.

-- Robert

[Allen Rout]

Ooo, Comrade Liza! Can we put a semi-permanent botsy track over the
FRONT WINDOW, and dry-erase something new every demo nite?

Let's run a whole bus of art over the cliff of technology!

Mmm, bus plunge. Used to be a website for that.

- Allen S. Rout

[Brian Bartholomew]

> Can we put a semi-permanent botsy track over the FRONT WINDOW, and
> dry-erase something new every demo nite?

With different-colored LED strips on the two long pieces and the pen
holder, so drivers-by can see the motion despite not seeing the
drawing, even with it back-lit in the window. Art picked to have lots
of 2 axis motion. Color change for pen up or down.

"DADDY DADDY STOP I WANNA SEE THE ROBOT" etc.

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

Now with measured sizes for 3D printers, laser cutter, and supporting tables:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop5.svg

Note 4 foot empty square in corner of printer room.

Brian

[Allen Rout]

Seems to me we should spend some time tonight acting on this diagram.  It may not be perfect, but it's certainly far closer than the current setup. 

I'll start by moving snackerspace doodads to make room for the vending machines.  Let the tile game commence!

Weather permitting, of course.... 

-Allen S. Rout

[Joseph Floyd]

Allen,

I commend your call to action, but have concerns still about the roof leaks.  Could preservation of equipment be assessed tonight before placement of equipment is undertaken please?

Also I side with Hoffman on 3D printers moving up front.  I also seem to recall at some point Kamin having a fine idea about moving the interior window to the wall splitting the wood room and the work station room for better viewing by visitors without entering the wood space.  Is that basically correct Kamin?

Have a great day and keep pedaling,

Joseph

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[Brian Bartholomew]

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop6.svg

Where will Frank's red upright air compressor go?
Won't fit under blast cabinet
In spot of oven, and oven goes on top of 3 foot wide
wire rack, which gets wheels?

Added oven, blast cabinet, another wire rack, solid shelves

Removed some nonexistent lateral files

Replaced estimated sizes with measured sizes for:
electric panel, jointer, planer, dust collector, cyclone, tail
bench, scroll saw, wood bandsaw, metal bandsaw

Still a 4 foot empty square in corner of printer room

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

I changed the floorplan to add the rest of the building starting from
Joe's original DXF file, and the machining area room shrunk vertically.
I haven't checked with a tape measure but I suspect I made a mistake
earlier importing, perhaps the 'automatic scale to A4 paper' checkbox.

Here's a newer, more cramped-for-width plan. What do you think of the
demolition in the garage door area?

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop7.svg

Brian

[Allen Rout]

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 6:30 PM, 'Brian Bartholomew' via Gainesville
Hackerspace <gainesville...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> I changed the floorplan to add the rest of the building starting from
> Joe's original DXF file, and the machining area room shrunk vertically.

> Here's a newer, more cramped-for-width plan. What do you think of the
> demolition in the garage door area?

Mm. I don't think demolition should be out of the question, but I do
think we should only begin contemplating that once we've got an
arrangement made in the existing wall plan.

The camel's nose for the demo seems to be the table saw. If I'm
interpreting your tablesaw-in-use diagram correctly, you've got a 4x8
sheet mocked up in all the maximally inconvenient locations. That's a
fine first principle, and if we were laying out in a warehouse, I
think it'd be a good idea. But I think it's overly solicitous of the
tablesaw, for our space layout. If you need to rip something 24'
long, you absolutely need 24' in front and behind. But if you want to
section a 4x8 sheet, you can do it with good control with other
methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxsXXQ8aY7o

from googling "Making a track for cutting plywood"



... If we had gobs of room, we'd build a permanent table right next to
the table saw, at the exactly correct height, and it would catch work
material when the saw was in use, and be general catch-all space other
times.


- Allen S. Rout

[Christopher Hoffman]

I don't think demolishing would be a good idea at the moment. I'm concerned about noise bleeding into the project tables area. Ideally that area would be somewhat isolated from the machining room so people can concentrate while members are making awesome things in the machine room. 

I like to imagine the back door between the table space and the garage door with some sort of plastic strip door to provide a little more noise reduction. As well as insulation, or some of those floating isolation panels to enclose the other side of the existing drywall.

[Brian Bartholomew]

> The camel's nose for the demo seems to be the table saw.

Not exactly. Crews had the idea. We discussed a double sliding glass
patio door, a heavy curtain in ceiling tracks like is used to split
hotel conference rooms, and I finally drew it open. But why do it?

Take the inkscape, add several 3 foot diameter circles representing
people. Now try to lay out the floorplan of one person giving a class
or demo of the shopsmith, jointer, planer, fireball, or table saw to
six or eight others. A class with four wood lathes. A parade float
vehicle brought through the garage door assembled.

We cut Crews' extruded styrofoam panel on the table saw. The fence
didn't extend to the 4 foot he wanted. Not being a shopsmith, I
couldn't extend the fence with floating tables. But there was no
floorspace to extend the fence into.

Downtown was a square raw space, but this floorplan is narrow. The
machine stations fit one person with one or two onlookers and no more.
Laptop-sized projects fit, and larger ones don't really.

It's conservative and easy to try the partition walls as they are.
The setup is nearly the same. But, I think you'll want a bigger
square space, and be willing to sacrifice noise isolation to get it.

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

Recopied DXF and building is back to its previous aspect ratio. Whew.

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop8.svg

I put in a possible standing arrangement for a woodworking class demo.
It just fits if the pieces are the sizes for birdhouses, but notice
the instructor can't move around the saw. I wouldn't want a bunch of
tablesaw beginners to have to rotate in a coordinated group fashion
around a running saw so the operator can switch to the outfeed side.
The students won't fit when the sheets are broken, even with a tracksaw.

I still think the garage door airlock walls should be removed back to
the end of the row of shelves to give a larger workspace. Then you
could put a 4x8 on sawhorses with tracksaw on top of it any direction,
with room for you and visitors to move around it, sawdust falls on floor.

Brian

[Brian Bartholomew]

Added recent new features:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop8.svg

This is what large several-person projects could look like with walls removed:

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop8open.svg
http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop8open2.svg

Brian

[Christopher Hoffman]

Added recent new features:  

http://static.skillhouse.org/shop/westshop8.svg

Love the water features, do those come standard?