Interest probe: CNC router with 4'x8' working area.

[Allen Rout]

We've been talking about a big CNC router since the very very beginning;  I've been using the phrase "Bring sheet goods in one end, and get IKEA out the other" since our initial organizing meetings.

Someone brought up the topic recently, so I decided it was time to run it up the flagpole again.  

Space is always an issue for such a large thing; but there's a design that takes that into account:  Here's my suggestion for a model we could get into.

https://buildyourcnc.com/item/cnc-machine-greenLean-v1

We could screw it into the beams at the shop. :)

If you're interested, say so, and if you feel comfortable so doing, decorate your sayso with a dollar amount.  If it looks like we're anywhere close, I'll start up a list.

If we were to go with this model, I'd expect it to be in the neighborhood of $6-7K.

 

I'm interested, maybe $400?

- Allen S. Rout

[Allen Rout]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Allen Rout <allen...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://buildyourcnc.com/item/cnc-machine-greenLean-v1

Mechmate also has a good reputation.   

- Allen S. Rout

 

[matteroflight]

If a sideways model adds a lot to the price, it might make sense to rearrange stuff?

I'll match Allen at $400 and throw in a year membership (since I'm not currently active).

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[matteroflight]

In case anyone doubted the awesomeness, imagine a full sheet of ply like this:

http://lumberjocks.com/assets/pictures/projects/465849.jpg

[Allen Rout]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 1:30 AM, matteroflight <matter...@gmail.com> wrote:

If a sideways model adds a lot to the price, it might make sense to rearrange stuff?

The  GreenBull and the GreenLean are pretty similar in price. 

They're both about a third of the cheap industrial models.

- Allen S. Rout

 

[Christopher Hoffman]

I'll have to let the idea sit and stew a bit. I think I'd get much more use out of a laser cutter for that price range, not often I need to work with a ful piece of ply :P 

I'll have to imagine the possibilities and get back to you.

[matteroflight]

I'm also interested in a laser cutter.

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[Eddie Reid]

I looked at the greenlean and it is an interesting design, I like the space saving feature. I also browsed through the 116 assembly steps, and the following thoughts came to mind.

1. It made out of wood, and in our location I am guessing it needs to be in A/C space.
2. There is a lot to assemble.
3. It seems expensive for what you get, looking at the menu of prices my guess is the cheapest you make it for is about $5k.
4. I could get more excited about a metal CNC table that could be both a plasma cutter and router.
 
Eddie Reid 

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[matteroflight]

4. Good point!  Plasma!  Probably not water jet (because it's vertical).

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[Eli Bothe]

Very interested

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Allen Rout <allen...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Eli Bothe]

Is a laser cutter not a plausible tool-head mod of this kind of machine?  I figure that with different treatments of surface plating/cover/etc and the tool-head swapped, this type of machine can be pretty much whatever we want, including macro 3d-printer.

[matteroflight]

I would say it is possible, but needs eye shielding.  I am not aware of an appropriate laser that could be mounted to provide sufficient power.  Additionaly, laser cutters are typically very precise, I wonder what the tolerances here are.  Hoffman, thoughts?  Laser head preferences/ideas?

[Christopher Hoffman]

Its not usually that simple. I have yet to see good results from a multi-tasking machine. Calibration gets out of wack when you swap out heads (Which takes dreadfully long to recalibrate for good quality.), the physical design which works well for CNC (very rigid construction, minimal backlash, slow movement and high torque) are often too slow for 3D printers (it'll work, but print times would be absolutely terrible).

[matteroflight]

Hm, interesting thoughts Hoffman.  Perhaps there is some way to make a mega head so that we don't have to recalibrate and go through the pain of switching?

[Christopher Hoffman]

Both the router and the extruder would need to contact the work area to function, which would require atleast one of them to move up and down. The laser also has to be a precise distance from the work area, and I don't think that the vibrations from a router would be a good idea for a precise piece like that.

I'm sure someone has done it, but just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[Frank]

I have some concerns regarding the upright design. Starting with a full sheet and cutting parts may not be a problem, but what about using drops to cut parts from or different materials. Wouldn't a flat top machine make more sense? Let gravity be our friend not our foe. Being made from wood also brings up concerns about warping and swelling in a non air conditioned space. I already have a 5'x 10' steel frame top that could be modified and put to use as well as some other parts that may be useful . Making a multi-use tool may sound good but you have to consider that a router should have a flat solid surface for the work piece to lay on whereas a plasma cutter needs a more open bottom for the sparks to pass thru. A wood frame plasma cutter machine sounds like a bad combination to me. We will also need to be careful about mixing sawdust and sparks.  Another thing I have tucked away at my shop is a desk top computer with Mach3 software already installed and a couple of 3 axis stepper drivers. Perhaps we should build a couple of smaller machines and learn the software and pros and cons of different designs before committing to a large machine. 4' x 4' may be a good start.

Sent from my iPad

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[Mark Davidson]

Here is a thought...
We have a CNC plasma cutter that will handle about 4x5 at one of our Tech Toybox locations.  We still want to set up the joint memberships that we discussed earlier, and this CNC could be available for those members, and it would not involve the cost of building another one.  We have already made a router mount for it.
I think it would be great fun to build one, but if you just want to use one, perhaps ours is the quicker way to go.

I am sorry we did not get the cross membership page up yet.  I have gotten buried in projects, but could make it happen pretty quickly in the next week or two.
Mark

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[Allen Rout]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Mark Davidson <outdoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is a thought...
> We have a CNC plasma cutter that will handle about 4x5 at one of our Tech Toybox locations. We still want to set up the joint memberships that we discussed earlier, and this CNC could be available for those members, and it would not involve the cost of building another one. We have already made a router mount for it.
> I think it would be great fun to build one, but if you just want to use one, perhaps ours is the quicker way to go.
>

I think this would be wonderful.

I know several members have a strong attraction for the full 4x8
working area, but 4x5 is at least major steps in the right direction.



I want to pile onto the "poor expectations for multiprocess"
bandwagon. Key here is that each transition is fiddly, and subject
to expertise. We run a real risk of having a machine entirely
capable of serving many needs, but needing many experts to tinker with
it every time. Our 3d printing is still very much expert-moderated;
I'm not sure I understand the road out of that space.


- Allen S. Rout

[Allen Rout]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:18 AM, matteroflight <matter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would say it is possible, but needs eye shielding. I am not aware of an
> appropriate laser that could be mounted to provide sufficient power.
> Additionaly, laser cutters are typically very precise, I wonder what the
> tolerances here are. Hoffman, thoughts? Laser head preferences/ideas?
>

I'm not given to authoritarian measures; but I'll be emphatic here.
We're a population of enthusiasts and dabblers. Any laser stuff we do
needs to be class-1 when we're done with it, and no joke. No half
measures, no half-ass.

Lots of the cutting laser work is in IR wavelengths, you have -NO-
chance to see what's going wrong until stuff (maybe next door...
what's LOS?) catches on fire, or burns someone. We've got to
respect the tool.


- Allen S. Rout

[Leonard Pearlman]

Mark,
 
Coming to you from the assisted-living facility, where it is almost time for ice cream.  This is a daily event, very popular among the people who can remember it. 
 
"Work" is about to pick up again, there are some small buildings to build with welded aluminum structure, and (finally!) a little house to be made out of a cargo container.  This is a dream of mine, been going on and on about it for a decade.  I even once talked to a contractor who had set these up in Iraq, some even underground as bunkers.  I've always wanted to live in a POD, this brings it closer.  I can easily imagine a hip tiny house/cargo container house in that wasteland behind the HI FI space. 
 
As it happens, the beach pods are supposed to have solar power.  This was sold without much idea of what this could do or what it would cost!!!!  There's no prototype system in place, I don't think they even own a multimeter at Cabin Fever.  Whee!  I have some spare Harbor Freight solar stuff sitting about in Gville,, might have to bring it down.
 
To celebrate all this, I broke down and ordered the cheapest tiniest plasma torch on the market right now.  The CUT 50.  Lots of YouTube videos about this.  A really cheap thing!  Kind of a toy, but a toy that can cut up a car.  Non-pilot arc machine, people seem to be having a good time with it and consumables are CHEAP.   Not suitable for robotic application supposedly, but they DO sell some machine-torches!  These are definitely PROBES, they look like all the machine-TIG and machine-plasma stuff you normally see, aside from costing like ten or fifteen dollars.  It comes to me that lacking a pilot-arc doesn't mean that a robot can't use this, but the control scenario would be different.  A fascinating project for someone who wants a cheap machine that can cut up metal stuff.  Arc Voltage Height Control would be absolutely critical.  For my own part, I'm looking forward to using simple templates, straightedges, and radius-bars, but I just now SAW the machine torches for sale, and naturally thought of you.  Otherwise this company (River-weld in China) is a great source for tig stuff, and small adapters and plugs and other bits so critical to the TIG world.  I just bought some adapters to go from old-school power-lugs (such as your own Synchrowave) to the modern DINSE connectors.
 
Ok, time for ice-cream!  New TIG-welder may arrive tomorrow, then it's back to work.
 
Light and Progress!
 
Lenny

---

[GRB352]

I would second Franks words. we have the skills divided among several active members to do this, and it would make for a great team project.

First take the parts Frank has and assemble them into a table that moves as we need it, the parts he has are heavy duty and already designed to move x-y. The part he has for z axis may or may not be designed to work with the table. So it might just mount up, or a mount will need to be designed/modified. The Z axis will also need to be modified to hold a tool. (kiss-start with one tool). Those are some daunting challenges for most, but some of our active members have the skills to do this (that is the part that would really slow me down while I tried to figure out what tool I needed and didn't have next).

next the table would need to be put under CNC control, I can do that. figuring out the LinuxCNC settings will take some trial and error, but not too bad. I am willing to donate the time for that, especially if I can do it at the Sun Center. 

Lastly, we would need a tool, this is the time when we would need money. We could raise a collection for a tool, and to reimburse Frank for his parts. 

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 1:18:33 AM UTC-4, Allen Rout wrote:

[Allen Rout]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 4:03 PM, GRB352 <gregoryro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would second Franks words. we have the skills divided among several active
> members to do this, and it would make for a great team project.
>

I'd be delighted to be a worker bee on this project. I'm not able to
be a planner.

- Allen S. Rout

[Daniel Crews]

Unless we have a clear need to purchase, I'd recommend designing/building one. I recognize that I'm delusional and plan grand ventures, but it's what we do, and I think this kind of machine is within our grasp.

I have my doubts about a true multi-purpose machine. In my opinion too much changes  between configurations - speed/torque, the work surface, eye/fire safety, material removal... But if we're smart about it we can have a few different designs that use some % of the same parts. Maybe one frame we can quickly change pieces on... Available space is a trickier issue, but we may be clever enough to work around that without having to get a vertical machine working... perhaps designs that foldup against the wall....

Planning is hard. Organizing people is harder. But in an attempt to get us started I've made a spreadsheet for organizing what we want/how we can achieve it. I'll probably compulsively change it's format whenever I think of a better way of organizing the data, but here it is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Sxthla62uWvdGZpGEOSsoB0nwmmL2oYaF3upJSwalB8/edit?usp=sharing

Currently it's set so anyone with the link can edit it. I'll roll back revisions if that gets abused.

I'm not so arrogant as to assume I'm a good leader, but if nobody else wants to do it I'll gather the information and make a proposed plan. And we can all complain about it and I'll make a new one, until we've got consensus. Maybe we can come up with something versatile/capable enough to agree on it.

As for expert mediation vs. casual use... I suspect some things like the mill could be made more democratic, but the laser cutter scares me. And then there's breakage/improper use.... How *does* a hackerspace go about sharing it's toys?

- Allen S. Rout

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[matteroflight]

This popped into my field of view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJqvN5BAOSY

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