interlinearization problem

[Kari Valkama]

Hi,

In the language where we are working, there is a connector:
ia tonna ’when’.

The parts are ia ’3rd person’ / ’connector’
ton- ’when’
na- '3rd person proclitic’

An example sentence:
ia tonna male ’when he goes/went’
ia tongkumale ’when I go/went’
ku- ’1p sg.’
male ’go’

The reason na- is proclitic, is that phonologically it is part of the verb:
ia tonnamale.

This is similar to the first person example:
ia tongkumale.

But in the orthography they are written differently.

There is a 3rd person possessive -na.
bola-na ’his/her house’
bola ’house’
-na ’3POS’

Therefore I do not want -na and na- get mixed up in interlinearization.
But now Flex offers 3POS as the analysis for the proclitic person marker na-, which is incorrect.

What should I do to resolve this problem?

Yours,
Kari

[Jeff Shrum]

Kari,

Search the Help for "ad hoc rules". You may be able to make ad hoc rules that preclude -na and -na from certain situations.

Jeff Shrum
SIL International
Language Technology Consultant
Dallas, TX
USA

--
You are subscribed to the publicly accessible group "FLEx list".
Only members can post but anyone can view messages on the website.
To change your status, please write to flex_d...@sil.org.
You can join this group by going to http://groups.google.com/group/flex-list.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLEx list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to flex-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to flex...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/flex-list/C2CD6C13-4E35-4896-A732-87DE99CBEA61%40mac.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Beth-docs Bryson]

It looks like you are calling it proclitic because it relates to the following verb, even though it is written attached to the previous word. However, when FLEx uses the terms “enclitic” and “proclitic”, it is thinking orthographically (“is it attached to the end or beginning of the word it attaches to”).

Because you have called it a proclitic and have a following hyphen (the “morph token”), then FLEx does not consider it, when it appears in a position that looks like a suffix.

If you want it to be a candidate in that position, then in FLEx at least, you would be better off calling it an enclitic, since orthographically it attaches to the end of a word.

-Beth

[Kevin Warfel]

Hi Kari,

If I'm understanding your language data and the orthography correctly, the one "na" is linguistically a proclitic, but in the orthography it is treated as an enclitic (at least in the data you shared). To reflect both of those realities, your lexical entry will need to have an allomorph that is an enclitic (=na) if you choose to reflect the linguistic reality by making the lexeme form a proclitic (na=). (Does your project use the equals sign to designate a clitic? I'm wondering because you used hyphens in your message instead of equal signs.)

A question about how the possessive suffix is written in the orthography: Is the hyphen part of the orthography, used to differentiate the possessive suffix (bola-na) from the pronominal clitic (tonna)? Or did you just put the hyphen in "bola-na" in your example to show that the "-na" is a suffix, but in the orthography, the word is written "bolana"? If the hyphen is part of the orthography, have you changed the affix-marking symbol to something else so that FLEx is not confused by the ambiguity?

FLEx knows the difference between a clitic and an affix, so assuming the possessive suffix and the pronominal clitic are both tagged appropriately, there should be two separate entries in the Word Analyses section of the Texts & Words area--one for -na (suffix) and another for na= (clitic). In each one, you can manually approve or disapprove the analyses that you do or do not want for it, and that will overrule any suggestions that FLEx might otherwise be inclined to make as you interlinearize. I've found this to be a good way to deal with one-of-a-kind elements in my lexicon.

Hope that helps,

Kevin

--
You are subscribed to the publicly accessible group "FLEx list".
Only members can post but anyone can view messages on the website.
To change your status, please write to flex_d...@sil.org.
You can join this group by going to http://groups.google.com/group/flex-list.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLEx list" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to flex-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Kari Valkama]

Hi Kevin, 

Thanks for your suggestions. 

Yes, our project uses = to designate a clitic. 

The hyphen in the 3POS is not part of the orthography, so it is bolana. 

The orthography is like this: 

ia tonna male 

ia tongkumale

bolana 

I followed your suggestion and the proclitic na= now has an allomorph =na. 

In the interlinear it now looks like this (ignore the asterisk for a moment): 

Word          tonna

Morphemes     *ton =na

Lex entries   *ton na=

I have one more question about the asterisk. 

There is an asterisk in the lexicon, and it shows in the interlinear as well, as can be seen above. 

I must have added it during the Shoebox times and it transferred to Flex. I do not know how to get rid of it. 

Do you have any suggestions?  

Yours, 

Kari 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to flex-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to flex...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/flex-list/CAHs8okXduwHJFfR90PM7vozXoNOpkeJ6oCoS2iKdci4JegJ8vg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kevin Warfel]

Kari,

Is *ton in your lexicon as a "bound stem"? An asterisk is FLEx's default way of indicating that a stem cannot stand alone but must have at least one affix.

-Kevin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/flex-list/CAHs8okXduwHJFfR90PM7vozXoNOpkeJ6oCoS2iKdci4JegJ8vg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You are subscribed to the publicly accessible group "FLEx list".
Only members can post but anyone can view messages on the website.
To change your status, please write to flex_d...@sil.org.
You can join this group by going to http://groups.google.com/group/flex-list.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLEx list" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to flex-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to flex...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/flex-list/243875C1-4045-4EAE-A6EC-48CDE3675F30%40mac.com.

[Kari Valkama]

Hi Kevin, 

Thanks, that is it! 

I should have remembered it. 

Yours, 

Kari 

Kevin Warfel <kevin_...@sil.org> kirjoitti 15.3.2018 kello 10.32:

Kari,

Is *ton in your lexicon as a "bound stem"? An asterisk is FLEx's default way of indicating that a stem cannot stand alone but must have at least one affix.

-Kevin

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:20 AM, Kari Valkama <kariv...@mac.com> wrote:

Hi Kevin, 

Thanks for your suggestions. 

Yes, our project uses = to designate a clitic. 

The hyphen in the 3POS is not part of the orthography, so it is bolana. 

The orthography is like this: 

ia tonna male 

ia tongkumale

bolana 

I followed your suggestion and the proclitic na= now has an allomorph =na. 

In the interlinear it now looks like this (ignore the asterisk for a moment): 

Word          tonna

Morphemes     *ton =na

Lex entries   *ton na=

I have one more question about the asterisk. 

There is an asterisk in the lexicon, and it shows in the interlinear as well, as can be seen above. 

I must have added it during the Shoebox times and it transferred to Flex. I do not know how to get rid of it. 

Do you have any suggestions?  

<Näyttökuva 2018-3-15 kello 9.19.40.png>

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to flex-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to flex...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/flex-list/CAHs8okVy_1XnWrNz0Tn4h4upcnbhvq553doOnWbC-K%3D5WpJjAw%40mail.gmail.com.