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[IAIDO-L] Chiburi isn't chiburi
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Peter Boylan
Sep 21, 2011, 6:38:09 PM9/21/11
to IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
An interesting blog about chiburi and it's history. Apparently much of what
we call chiburi wasn't called chiburi until some time in the 20th century.
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/09/05/the-myth-of-chiburi/
we call chiburi wasn't called chiburi until some time in the 20th century.
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/09/05/the-myth-of-chiburi/
Does this change how you look at chiburi?
Peter Boylan
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Meik Skoss
Sep 22, 2011, 10:18:44 AM9/22/11
to IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Peter,
You posted an interesting link below:
An interesting blog about chiburi and its history. Apparently much of what
thought that the chiburi one sees in Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu/Muso
Shinden-ryu was a useless action because it simply does not work. It is an
affectation, presumably dating back to Edo times. Come to think of it,
sitting in seiza with a long sword is another affectation. It is useful for
training the legs and hips, in a way, but not something bushi did "back in
the day," according to what I have read or been told by my instructors.
Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei once explained to me why we do not do chiburi in Yagyu
Seigo-ryu: "It doesn't work. In the old days, one would use a piece of paper
(kaishi, as explained in the article you linked to) to wipe off the blade."
Otake Risuke, shihan of Katori Shinto-ryu, once talked about an experience
in his dojo. One of his students cut himself during iai practice. While
other people were attending to his injury, Otake picked up the man's sword
from the dojo floor and tried the Shinto-ryu chiburi (it still had blood on
it). It didn't work. He tried the different forms of chiburi one sees in
Eishin-ryu. They didn't work. I do not remember if he tried other schools'
versions, but I would venture that they would not have proved effective,
either.
So, why do chiburi? The answer to that is: "Because." Because that is what
one does in one's particular ryu. Whether it's a symbolic form of
purification (an interesting idea, given that blood is a form of kegare,
ritual defilement, in Shinto belief/practice) or a pretend form of cleaning
the blade is not particularly relevant. We do it because that is what the
ryu does. (Well, you may. We do not in Seigo-ryu.)
I think that "because that's what we do" is sufficient explanation unto
itself.
Meik Skoss
Shutokukan Dojo
Koryu.com
You posted an interesting link below:
An interesting blog about chiburi and its history. Apparently much of what
we call chiburi wasn't called chiburi until some time in the 20th century.
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/09/05/the-myth-of-chiburi/. Does this change
how you look at chiburi?
Great article. No, it does not change how I look at chiburi. I have long
thought that the chiburi one sees in Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu/Muso
Shinden-ryu was a useless action because it simply does not work. It is an
affectation, presumably dating back to Edo times. Come to think of it,
sitting in seiza with a long sword is another affectation. It is useful for
training the legs and hips, in a way, but not something bushi did "back in
the day," according to what I have read or been told by my instructors.
Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei once explained to me why we do not do chiburi in Yagyu
Seigo-ryu: "It doesn't work. In the old days, one would use a piece of paper
(kaishi, as explained in the article you linked to) to wipe off the blade."
Otake Risuke, shihan of Katori Shinto-ryu, once talked about an experience
in his dojo. One of his students cut himself during iai practice. While
other people were attending to his injury, Otake picked up the man's sword
from the dojo floor and tried the Shinto-ryu chiburi (it still had blood on
it). It didn't work. He tried the different forms of chiburi one sees in
Eishin-ryu. They didn't work. I do not remember if he tried other schools'
versions, but I would venture that they would not have proved effective,
either.
So, why do chiburi? The answer to that is: "Because." Because that is what
one does in one's particular ryu. Whether it's a symbolic form of
purification (an interesting idea, given that blood is a form of kegare,
ritual defilement, in Shinto belief/practice) or a pretend form of cleaning
the blade is not particularly relevant. We do it because that is what the
ryu does. (Well, you may. We do not in Seigo-ryu.)
I think that "because that's what we do" is sufficient explanation unto
itself.
Meik Skoss
Shutokukan Dojo
Koryu.com
Kim Taylor
Sep 22, 2011, 1:13:01 PM9/22/11
to IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
In the kage ryu, as Colin Watkin explained it last year in Calgary, (I paraphrase I'm sure) "we don't do noto in kage ryu. But you have to start the next kata with the sword in the scabbard so at some point between the end of one kata and the beginning of the next you have to put the sword back into the scabbard".
You can posit a similar explanation for "yoko" chiburi. To put the sword away before the start of the next kata, move it out to the right a bit so that you get a full and safe movement for doing noto.
Now, if you do some ritual cleaning (whether it's shinto ritual or a physically ritual placeholder) on certain movements in Omori ryu, "o-chiburi" on Mae/Shohatto, chinagui on uke nagashi, and we call it chiburi, it's not much of a leap to call a movement in the same position in the Eishin ryu kata, "chiburi", even if it's only moving the blade over to the side to do a nice noto.
Labels are useful, naming certain movements is useful. Call it scrub-a-dub and it's just as useful as any other piece of jargon intended to stand in for a whole bunch of words describing what you do at this place in time.
However, that brings up a point of practice. If the movement between the end of the final cut and the noto in Eishin ryu is simply a move to the side it could be done with a feeling of gently/carefully moving the blade to the side in preparation for the next move. If it is done as "chiburi" than that gentle movement looks wrong, and a feeling of jo ha kyu, of tearing the tenugui in half etc. makes more sense. This is the only reason to be discussing "whether chiburi or not", because the intent of the movement influences the physical movement. This is a huge chunk of what iaido practice is, the demonstration of riai through physical movement. Telling the story.
What's the movement of the blade after the thrust and withdrawl of soete zuki to the point where we start the noto? It's 6 or 8 inches of acceleration and deceleration tops, wouldn't shake a drunken mouse off the blade, what's the manual say it is?
Another point. MSR and MJER uke nagashi have similar movements in Omori uke nagashi, but in some lines of MSR that movement has been interpreted as a cut to the neck and in others a stab is added, while in MJER it is clearly just chinagui, a wiping off of the blood and nothing further. It is entirely possible to change a meaning/motion or to add or subtract a motion/meaningas one goes along. As long as the change doesn't violate the spirit and meaning of the kata, what's the problem? Of course one needs to be sufficiently informed to be able to decide what "goes outside the line" and that means us peons better be careful about any changes we make, yes?
Bottom line. What's the important part of an iaido kata? What makes it iaido and not kenjutsu? The chiburi? The noto? My answer is the cut from the saya. The rest is finishing the job or putting the blade away so you can continue the practice.
Having said that, and having mentioned ZNKR iai and the manual, I'd better also say that one's interpretation better not get too far from the manual and what the hanshi tell us is "seitei". The intent of seitei is to allow a world-wide organization to maintain standard levels of skill, so if the manual says that sideways movement is chiburi, we'd better treat it as such and fling that drunken mouse across the room if we want to pass the next grade.
Kim.
Kim Taylor
kata...@sdksupplies.com
________________________________
You can posit a similar explanation for "yoko" chiburi. To put the sword away before the start of the next kata, move it out to the right a bit so that you get a full and safe movement for doing noto.
Now, if you do some ritual cleaning (whether it's shinto ritual or a physically ritual placeholder) on certain movements in Omori ryu, "o-chiburi" on Mae/Shohatto, chinagui on uke nagashi, and we call it chiburi, it's not much of a leap to call a movement in the same position in the Eishin ryu kata, "chiburi", even if it's only moving the blade over to the side to do a nice noto.
Labels are useful, naming certain movements is useful. Call it scrub-a-dub and it's just as useful as any other piece of jargon intended to stand in for a whole bunch of words describing what you do at this place in time.
However, that brings up a point of practice. If the movement between the end of the final cut and the noto in Eishin ryu is simply a move to the side it could be done with a feeling of gently/carefully moving the blade to the side in preparation for the next move. If it is done as "chiburi" than that gentle movement looks wrong, and a feeling of jo ha kyu, of tearing the tenugui in half etc. makes more sense. This is the only reason to be discussing "whether chiburi or not", because the intent of the movement influences the physical movement. This is a huge chunk of what iaido practice is, the demonstration of riai through physical movement. Telling the story.
What's the movement of the blade after the thrust and withdrawl of soete zuki to the point where we start the noto? It's 6 or 8 inches of acceleration and deceleration tops, wouldn't shake a drunken mouse off the blade, what's the manual say it is?
Another point. MSR and MJER uke nagashi have similar movements in Omori uke nagashi, but in some lines of MSR that movement has been interpreted as a cut to the neck and in others a stab is added, while in MJER it is clearly just chinagui, a wiping off of the blood and nothing further. It is entirely possible to change a meaning/motion or to add or subtract a motion/meaningas one goes along. As long as the change doesn't violate the spirit and meaning of the kata, what's the problem? Of course one needs to be sufficiently informed to be able to decide what "goes outside the line" and that means us peons better be careful about any changes we make, yes?
Bottom line. What's the important part of an iaido kata? What makes it iaido and not kenjutsu? The chiburi? The noto? My answer is the cut from the saya. The rest is finishing the job or putting the blade away so you can continue the practice.
Having said that, and having mentioned ZNKR iai and the manual, I'd better also say that one's interpretation better not get too far from the manual and what the hanshi tell us is "seitei". The intent of seitei is to allow a world-wide organization to maintain standard levels of skill, so if the manual says that sideways movement is chiburi, we'd better treat it as such and fling that drunken mouse across the room if we want to pass the next grade.
Kim.
Kim Taylor
kata...@sdksupplies.com
________________________________
Kevin France
Sep 22, 2011, 9:03:40 PM9/22/11
to IAI...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
From: "Meik Skoss" <msk...@KORYU.COM>
> Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei once explained to me why we do not do chiburi in
> Yagyu
> Seigo-ryu: "It doesn't work. In the old days, one would use a piece of
> paper
> (kaishi, as explained in the article you linked to) to wipe off the
> blade."
> Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei once explained to me why we do not do chiburi in
> Yagyu
> Seigo-ryu: "It doesn't work. In the old days, one would use a piece of
> paper
> (kaishi, as explained in the article you linked to) to wipe off the
> blade."
If you think about it, even a quick wipe with a piece of paper wouldn't make
the blade clean. You'd need to pretty carefully wipe it after rinsing (or
at least use something damp) to remove the blood, and then oil the blade
again. That's to really clean it off...to just make it neat enough to put
back in the scabbard after a fight wouldn't require that level of attention
to detail. I don't think chiburi would do much for either purpose than
spread the blood around...
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