individualism

[Tim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ICup8O_1M&feature=fvwrel

Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
individualized as technology produced its array of products?

Did the fall of the church cause less community?

Was community real or people just going with the flow?

[Bryan Cridlebaugh]

> Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
> individualized as technology produced its array of products?

In some cases, yes. But, technology brings together a type of
community. On the other hand some despise technology. Some would
have a hard time trying to find the on button to this computer. Those
folks may be more individualized than the tech folks these days?

> Did the fall of the church cause less community?

What church has fallen? They seem to have plenty of money and
influence around here.

> Was community real or people just going with the flow?

I feel confident believing that there has been and will be plenty of
love involved in most communities.

[Verisoph]

Oh yes community is real and no, I don't think people will ever get
bored with community at all,
when you think about it, the values, beliefs, meaning and shared
expectations of a community
go back to pre church time and still going strong, sure they will be
there after the last church closed their doors.
Which it seems, will be a long time away.
Perhaps the "traditional" form or concept of community has changed?

Would it be very far fetched to say that community is the oneness of
all things....?


On Apr 17, 5:11 pm, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Tim]

On Apr 17, 3:11 am, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
> > individualized as technology produced its array of products?
>
>  In some cases, yes.  But, technology brings together a type of
> community.  On the other hand some despise technology.  Some would
> have a hard time trying to find the on button to this computer.  Those
> folks may be more individualized than the tech folks these days?
>
> > Did the fall of the church cause less community?
>
> What church has fallen?  They seem to have plenty of money and
> influence around here.

These are just in the U.S. Herbie can testify for the E.U. but I think
they suffer a sharper decline.

http://www.keepgodinamerica.com/statistics.asp

>
> > Was community real or people just going with the flow?
>
> I feel confident believing that there has been and will be plenty of
> love involved in most communities.

When I was growing up in the 60s there were kids playing in the
streets, adults stopping to chat with folks on their porch, parks full
of families on the weekend, social clubs that had largely middle class
attendance and it was hard to get on a bowling league do to it's
popularity.

Today, many kids sleeping past noon, sidewalks and porches
disappeared, parks half full of mostly walkers and runners, social
clubs only attended by mostly upper middle-class if any.
At work, conversation is 75% dedicated to sports and zero mention of
local community.

We have online communities now. How real are they? We have people
talking and texting more than not. Are they sincere? We don't even get
to see folks riding in autos for they have darkened there windows.
Pulled the shades so to speak. Where we shop, we hardly ever see the
same person twice in a year. Is it easier to argue in person or argue
online? Are discussion more meaningful in person or online. Is it
easier to tell a friend or grandma that you won't be coming because
you have found a better engagement? Are we moving one step forward and
two steps back? Or are we evolving into more massive community that
reserves its individual self for things it likes instead of involving
oneself physically within community? Could we do better by using
virtual community in conjunction with physical? Might there be folks
in your area that enjoy the same recreation that you do? Why aren't
they hooking-up online to discuss/plan and do these activities
together? Is there a comfort in distancing oneself from neighbors and
picking associations further from the home front. Are we distancing
ourselves from the moments of uglyness to only reap good association?
Where are our businesses involvement in community? At the arena? I
have lots of questions to where this new found community is heading.

[Tim]

On Apr 17, 4:23 am, Verisoph <giese...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Oh yes community is real and no, I don't think people will ever get
> bored with community at all,
> when you think about it, the values, beliefs, meaning and shared
> expectations of a community
> go back to pre church time and still going strong, sure they will be
> there after the last church closed their doors.
> Which it seems, will be a long time away.
> Perhaps the "traditional" form or concept of community has changed?

Or how about community is the key to learning oneness. Now deal with
the physical vs. the virtual.

Here is the scenario: I enjoy planned photo shoots by myself as well
as with a colleague. I cannot just write Ver and plan a photo shoot
for next weekend. I can write my brother 100 miles away and plan a
shoot. There are obviously plenty of folks in my area that would like
to plan a shoot. If we had an online local community where same
interest within same area could plan, my chances of shooting and
learning from others is greater. The other upside is the automatic
sharing of political and other views with strangers but in a face to
face instead of virtual. Sharing photos and techniques virtually is
not the same as being there physically sharing techniques.

Of coarse there are always the fears. Who wants to go on a shoot with
a stranger and find out that its a perv. or mugger. These fears get
worked out and trust becomes better known as physical community grows.
In fact the problem persons are found out and dealt with instead of
being able to stay hidden and lashing out when the situation is ripe.
Within the church community there can be a system of trust but that
even gets diluted when the church becomes to large. Basically you get
folks going through the motions of attending church rather than solid
active church comm.

One can use the internet to join local groups of interest. This takes
away the fears but it adds inconvenients and dedication. It is not the
same as saying hey Joe I know this spot I have been wanting to check
out, do you want to hit it next Saturday and go have a couple of beers
afterwords? If Joe can't make it then there is Mike, Steve etc.

What a person writes and what a person is like are two different
things. A more physical community is a more truthful community? I
don't know. Bowling in leagues have fallen while bowling alone has
risen. Fear within communities has risen while crime has stayed about
the same per cap. Well, I am for burning the family deck in the rear
of the house and moving back to the front porch and the local park
were we can view oneness.

[Verisoph]

Sure Tim,
could it perhaps be an american problem?
And could it be that the paranoia of the American politics has
infiltrated
everyday life their citicens?
I can not relate to your concern (Angst) at all.

[Musycks]

I think it's a modern first world issue... I think Tim is right to a
degree, and I've noticed people have retreated to the safety of their
own cave more now than when I was a kid. But to balance that there is
more demand on our time now... much more to integrate into your life
to find any kind of balance. We live in a world of too much choice....
we used to live in hole in middle of road...

I think every generation goes through this, and my hope is our
children get to look back and say theirs was a golden childhood. I
know I was lucky in comparison, but mine was blissful and loving and
carefree. I'm grateful I won the human lottery in a sense.

I'm still hopeful that when large-ish groups of humans gather, they
can usually find some common ground and sort things out with a touch
of humour and good grace.

Is that too much to hope?

MR

> > > > > Was community real or people just going with the flow?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Tim]

On Apr 18, 5:01 am, Verisoph <giese...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Sure Tim,
> could it perhaps be an american problem?
> And could it be that the paranoia of the American politics has
> infiltrated
> everyday life their citicens?
> I can not relate to your concern (Angst) at all.

The political paranoia would be one of many. All things that humans
project towards one another is to be considered. In graphic arts, we
are taught to produce imagery that can change persons perception of
subject. I can go on about how we can somewhat direct society through
our mass media against their will. Nike can cause parents to buy
expensive sneakers so their children do not feel out of place and so
on. Edu. has played it's part in teaching children to capitalize over
others.

[Bryan Cridlebaugh]

I hear ya Tim. But, I live in a community of about 50,000 that's a
bit old school. Yesterday, my daughter and I planted part of our
garden while neighbors and family stopped by to chat. About half of
our garden goes to friends and family. Half the time when I call
people to see if they want any veggies they already got a bag from
another friend or neighbor who has a garden.. that's no kidding. And
many people, including myself, love their porch.

> We have online communities now. How real are they?

I personally would much rather speak in person. I guess in my opinion
these communities are real but hard to compare with having a
conversation while sitting on a porch or leaning on a fence talking to
a neighbor. Like I said, I hear ya. In a lot of places there seems
to be more of one and not enough of the other.

I believe technology has cut into outside play time. I don't like
it. That's why I'm the type of dad that says "no t.v. come outside
and play." I'm sure if I didn't my kids would watch more t.v. But,
they often make the choice to do something other than watch t.v. or
play video games on their own. They just sometimes need to be shown
some other options.

I believe in local community, Tim. Do you remember telling me that's
where I need to start and to let it grow from there? Well, I pitched
some ideas to the pastor of a church I painted. Now every other
Saturday my wife and I cook for a community dinner we call 'Saturday
Supper.' Along with about 5 or 6 other volunteers per every other
Saturday, we offer the best meal we can to those less fortunate. We
started about 6 months ago and attendance averages around 50. At
least 100 people have donated. Quite a few people are now involved
and it seems like this could be the beginning of something bigger.
It's at least been a great start.

It may take some effort to revive some of these local communities
you're describing. But, I don't think it's too late.

[Herbie]

> They just sometimes need to be shown
> some other options.
>

> Now every other
> Saturday my wife and I cook for a community dinner we call 'Saturday
> Supper.'  Along with about 5 or 6  other volunteers per every other
> Saturday, we offer the best meal we can to those less fortunate.  We
> started about 6 months ago and attendance averages around 50.  At
> least 100 people have donated.  Quite a few people are now involved
> and it seems like this could be the beginning of something bigger.
> It's at least been a great start.

Good on ya Bryan.

[Herbie]

I think that you might find a lot of common ground with this guy
Bryan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ADjuSjJzww&feature=feedu

[Bryan Cridlebaugh]

You were right HP. I did find a lot of common ground with this guy.
Thanks for the intro.

On Apr 19, 1:29 am, Herbie <chris-stann...@campdencharities.org.uk>
wrote:

[Tim]

On Apr 18, 5:59 pm, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>
wrote:

That is great, that you get to experience it and see it grow. I used
to help prepare breakfast once a month at a church that I did not
attend. It was for the congregation but it was still fun hanging out
and laughing and having a good time.

I wonder if the pastor would be up for supporting a bring your own
cookout at the park this summer? Maybe run an ad. in the local paper
and drop some flyers. Pitch it to local small business owners calling
for a day at the park? I am thinking that if it has a community tag on
it instead of the church, folks might show up to see what it is about.
I doubt if you get many people who don't normally use the park. You
might get quiet a few that happen to use the park at different times.
If it is pitched to the small business owner right (as a community
gathering) some will probably show. Once you can get them involved you
have access to many more through their shops. My idea is to have
minimal financial support from an established org. that thinks there
is value in people gathering. Not that they think they can use the
gathering to further their agenda as might the small business or
church. I think folks would enjoy gathering without vendors and such
as are at festivals.

[Bryan Cridlebaugh]

Pastor Gretchen is pretty easy going. She's agreed from the beginning
that this should be a community gathering and not a church function.
We don't want it to seem like there is a hidden agenda. Honestly
though, I still get the impression that some people avoid coming
because they think they'll be pressured into attending church.
I'm sure she'd like the idea of having Saturday supper in the park.
We have the ad and flyer thing pretty squared away. So getting the
word out should be easy. We're in the paper every week. We also send
flyers home with every kid at three different elementary schools that
are close to the church. This an all ages gathering so we also send
flyers to a near by low income retirement apartment complex, the
college, head start program, ywca, and post them on various bulletin
boards, etc. Local radio stations may soon be helping.
As always, I like your input, Tim. Thank you. You have me thinking.
My goal is to see to it that everyone in this town is well fed every
day. So I'll listen to all the ideas and advise you have.
Peace!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Tim]

On Apr 20, 9:33 pm, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Pastor Gretchen is pretty easy going.  She's agreed from the beginning
> that this should be a community gathering and not a church function.
> We don't want it to seem like there is a hidden agenda.  Honestly
> though, I still get the impression that some people avoid coming
> because they think they'll be pressured into attending church.
> I'm sure she'd like the idea of having Saturday supper in the park.
> We have the ad and flyer thing pretty squared away.  So getting the
> word out should be easy.  We're in the paper every week.  We also send
> flyers home with every kid at three different elementary schools that
> are close to the church.  This an all ages gathering so we also send
> flyers to a near by low income retirement apartment complex, the
> college, head start program, ywca, and post them on various bulletin
> boards, etc.  Local radio stations may soon be helping.
> As always, I like your input, Tim.  Thank you.  You have me thinking.
> My goal is to see to it that everyone in this town is well fed every
> day.  So I'll listen to all the ideas and advise you have.
> Peace!

Individualism,

Do folks simply find it more pleasant to find things to do on their
own and life has plenty of individual pleasures today? Or, if one can
find pleasure without having to deal with other personalities. Why are
multiple personalities a distraction to some folks seeking the most
pleasure? Of coarse we can see that each individual has their own
balance of how often they find pleasure in socializing vs.
individualizing. We know that mass media, gagets, edu, all play a part
in moving the balance left or right. To what extent are folk's lives
guided in what they find pleasure in vs. what their soul (whatever
that is) may find more pleasure if given equal opportunity?

[Musycks]

Careful BC.... I'm reminded of a Sth American priest some time back
who said..
'I feed the poor and they call me a Saint, I ask 'why are they poor'?
and they call me a communist'!

well done with the food drive.

MR



On Apr 21, 11:33 am, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>

[Bryan Cridlebaugh]

Tim
All I can think of is, what part of our desire is important? What is
important? Everything? Nothing? Bits and pieces?

>To what extent are folk's lives
> guided in what they find pleasure in vs. what their soul (whatever
> that is) may find more pleasure if given equal opportunity?

As chicken shit as it may seem, on this one I will absolutely stick
with I don't know.

MR
"Communist" is damn near a compliment.. I've been called that. In my
opinion I've been called worse. I do have a breaking point though.
Just don't call me late for dinner.

[Tim]

On Apr 27, 3:19 am, Bryan Cridlebaugh <bryancridleba...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Tim
> All I can think of is, what part of our desire is important?  What is
> important?  Everything?  Nothing?  Bits and pieces?

Desire, is only a driver. Balance in the things we choose to drive, so
to speak is important. The tree hug-er is of little use to himself or
other life if all he does is hug trees. To get full pleasure of being
a part of life, one needs to find balance in the many aspects.

>To what extent are folk's lives
> > guided in what they find pleasure in vs. what their soul (whatever
> > that is) may find more pleasure if given equal opportunity?
>
> As chicken shit as it may seem, on this one I will absolutely stick
> with I don't know.

To what extent is one's life guided. That is the fifty billion dollar
question, because everyone's life is guided by their past and present
influences, gains, losses, etc. Sometimes if their lives have great
tragedy or pleasure, they are forced to ask their soul what is really
important. It should not be like that. We should know at all times
what our souls feel is real important and be able to act on it as life
comes streaming in, in it's mass media, gadgets, social fears, instant
pleasures etc. The truth is probably more like, who wants to be the
Gandhi or Jesus. It would get boring after awhile. We turn the soul's
volume down to experience other things before we die. I think that the
more we practice individualism, the more the volume gets turned down.
I could be wrong.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Brock]

On Apr 16, 10:17 pm, Tim <thcus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
> individualized as technology produced its array of products?

Well, community is very important in times of crisis, where banding
together is necessary to overcome shared adversity. It is easy for it
to become less emphasized in times of prosperity.

> Did the fall of the church cause less community?

Which church?

> Was community real or people just going with the flow?

Maybe both.

Regards,

Brock

[Tim]

On May 13, 8:28 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 10:17 pm, Tim <thcus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
> > individualized as technology produced its array of products?
>
> Well, community is very important in times of crisis, where banding
> together is necessary to overcome shared adversity.  It is easy for it
> to become less emphasized in times of prosperity.

So your view is that community is still strong, unless it has a crises
it tends stay fairly dormant?

>
> > Did the fall of the church cause less community?
>
> Which church?

Maybe this will help: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

It would be interesting if we could view a similar study just before
the home internet and cable T.V. But we can't, because the study of
how folks answer polling questions just came about very recently. It
would seem that the fear of some unknown retribution would cause the
earlier participants to fib more than the less fearful information age
participants.

>
> > Was community real or people just going with the flow?
>
> Maybe both.

I do not know your age or experience among communities but I tend to
agree with your "maybe both" answer. This is only because I view folks
as presenting how they wish to seem to be, rather than presenting
moral actions from their soul, whatever that is.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brock

[Brock Organ]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Tim <thcu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> On May 13, 8:28 pm, Brock <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 16, 10:17 pm, Tim <thcus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Do you think that folks got bored of community and became more
>> > individualized as technology produced its array of products?
>>
>> Well, community is very important in times of crisis, where banding
>> together is necessary to overcome shared adversity.  It is easy for it
>> to become less emphasized in times of prosperity.
>
> So your view is that community is still strong, unless it has a crises
> it tends stay fairly dormant?

No, I believe that community spirit is strongest during times of
crisis, during a need to overcome a shared adversity, and tends to be
weaker and less emphasized in times of prosperity.

>> > Was community real or people just going with the flow?
>>
>> Maybe both.
>
> I do not know your age or experience among communities but I tend to
> agree with your "maybe both" answer. This is only because I view folks
> as presenting how they wish to seem to be, rather than presenting
> moral actions from their soul, whatever that is.

Well, in addition to that, I think that different folks have different
motivations, and don't deny that two different people can do the same
thing for different reasons. For example, I remember during both Gulf
wars, someone would say something like "We don't care about the Iraqi
people, we're only fighting for cheap oil." I don't doubt that the
energy issue was a motivating factor for some, but also know that many
involved in the conflict were motivated by other, higher principles,
and that it would be demeaning to devalue them by simplistically
saying they fought "just for the cause of cheap oil".

Regards,

Brock

[Tim]

On May 14, 5:45 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure, the executive officer cannot invade a country without consent of
congress. The congress agreement was to dismantle a dangerous regime
in the middle east. The decision from congress was based on creating a
future justified world to live in. The oil was used as a means to
finance, in which the Iraqi oil fields were recently sold and the
proceeds allocated back to the U.S. war department for future like
missions.

Tell me what you think about the patrons of the small town in Texas
that stood armed with rifles on the bridge and would not allow the
victims of Katrina pass to safety. Obviously they did it in fear. What
were their fears? Was it looting of their small town by poor people?
Did they believe that the victims willfully chose to live in the 9th
ward, therefore should die in the sweltering heat on that bridge? I do
not understand how a small community of mostly God fearing/loving
people can make that sort of moral judgement during a human crises.
Even if the towns people viewed them as sinners who's wives happen to
pray quiet often, how do they justify that Jesus would help them in
their pursuit in salvation after blatantly causing death and suffering
to protect their own possessions? Does their good book mention them
sinners vs. us moral judgment? How do you suppose the native Americans
would have reacted during a similar white man catastrophe?

The natives viewed white man as crazed sinners unleashed upon mother
earth. They also viewed all animals, including white man as sacred
creations of their God to be honored and respected even in times of
dispute and killing. It seems to me that most all humans have a level
of selfish justification regardless of their religious doctrines. Did
Paul really think that the gospel of Jesus would change man's selfish
needs? Would he be appalled (no pun intended) at the way his
Christians turned out in the 21st century? What percent of the folks
who refer to themselves as Christians would Paul agree that they were
in his view Christian? How do we know how well the good book is an
asset to mankind becoming more like God's plan? When will God come to
the conclusion that not enough humans follow his book closely enough
to make it of value to his plan and give the humans a new tool? Is God
away on business?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brock

[Joe]

Why are you slacking? If you see something wrong, why do you sit back
in your armchair and criticize it instead of taking steps to fix it?
Are you just that lazy, or do you really not know what to do?

[Brock Organ]

On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Tim <thcu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Tell me what you think about the patrons of the small town in Texas
> that stood armed with rifles on the bridge and would not allow the
> victims of Katrina pass to safety.

To whom, specifically do you refer? Citation?

> I do
> not understand how a small community of mostly God fearing/loving
> people can make that sort of moral judgement during a human crises.

Why don't you understand the tragedy of fallen humankind? Humankind
is objectively biased toward sin and evil.

> Even if the towns people viewed them as sinners who's wives happen to
> pray quiet often, how do they justify that Jesus would help them in
> their pursuit in salvation after blatantly causing death and suffering
> to protect their own possessions? Does their good book mention them
> sinners vs. us moral judgment?

Maybe this helps:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

God saves wretched, evil, morally filthy sinners, those who have
nothing else going for them and nothing of their own to merit God's
wonderful favor. Abundantly He pardons and restores the vilest and
most incorrigible offender who simply believes with a childlike trust
the completed work of Jesus Christ.

Regards,

Brock

[pokoj]

Growing up where I did (small-town where everyone loved to gossip but
not actually get to know each other) I often felt that definitions of
community are many and mostly non-committal. The high-school clique
mentality spills over into everyday life, and there are few occasions
of even people genuinely seeking community, never mind living it out.
Technology definitely provides another means of fooling people into
thinking they are being social, or providing distractions. But you
get pockets of online interaction that seems a fair bit more honest
and open than what people attempt in their social lives.
====
More often than not church "community" is no better (and sometimes
even more shameful) than the exchange of pleasantries and masquerading
which goes on everywhere. It is many times relegated to small talk
and chit chat after church services. In the US especially there is a
disconnect between the idea of community and what actually happens,
when people forget that merely gathering to sing a few songs and talk
about the weather is not "community," especially in the Christian
tradition. I've been fortunate enough to be a part of a few church
communities who are reaching for a more intentional development of the
ideal. When this happens there seems to be a pathway made to a very
deep sense of community, of trusting and caring about each other (and
attempting the 50-odd "___ one-another" statements in the NT).
Actually our service tonight was focused on that...

[Tim]

I came to realize just a little while back that folks fear other
humans ideas a whole lot. They fear change that they have yet
observed. One can only get their ideas through to them by leading by
example. We talked about this many moons ago. I don't believe in the
Lokota's honor nor believe in the Christians written word. I believe
that when folks see acts of moral good, they are attracted to it. The
more I act morally good, the more they follow. Because moral good has
a pleasant outcome, it becomes repetitious. I try and teach folks that
I meet about fears that block their repetitious moral good from
evolving. They don't believe in man's ideas. They only take notice in
what makes others pleasant. You cannot find it in a book or by living
a rigorous life of religious rule, though those things can cause some
acts of subconscious moral good. To reap the reward of seeing others
around you learn it, you first have to let go of all the fears of
awkwardness and let them see what the human soul is made of. To die
crippled with no belongings would be a pleasure. For I would know that
I was able to give it all. But that is not what I live for. I live for
hope that through hard work, my messages and my living by example that
many folks see the pleasure of giving and catch on. I have down sized
my life many times. There seems to be a balance of how poor or
unimportant you become in the eyes of others that you are affective.
One finds himself working hard at what he considers useless material
things just so he can still be considered. After awhile of
acknowledging when your moral self gives without thinking, you start
snowballing into repetition. It becomes so automated that your only
thinking becomes keeping up enough hard work on the material things to
stay in the view of others and have time and resources to help others.
"The true pleasure." "The moral being."
I did not choose this way of life. It came into my understanding
while (acknowledging the difference in my conscience moral acts and
natural moral acts.) I found out what the human soul was doing and
liked it. The repetitious snowballing was undecided. Basically I
became stuck in it. Once I ventured out to allow the soul to odd
things for strangers, I was hooked. Maybe it is the subconscious
thought that if I do this for this stranger just maybe it will cause
them to lose some fear and do something in likeness for another.
Whatever it is, the soul becomes the selfish one and does not allow
the conscious mind to have its fears or laziness. It is a bit strange
in that you still seem like you have free will to choose but the soul
now forces you in a split second to evaluate your conscious choice
against the soul's choice. This commonly happens anyway but it is the
awareness that causes the soul to win more times now. It may be that
the conscious mind is allowing the split second of evaluation because
it knows how often the soul's decision turns out to be the more
pleasant. Things go wrong more if your giving more, especially to
strangers. Folks have many fears. I don't seem discouraged by it
because I know what it is. You have to understand human fears and do
away with yours in order to allow the soul to act in the first place.

[Tim]

On May 15, 9:11 pm, Brock Organ <brockor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Tim <thcus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Tell me what you think about the patrons of the small town in Texas
> > that stood armed with rifles on the bridge and would not allow the
> > victims of Katrina pass to safety.
>
> To whom, specifically do you refer?  Citation?

I forget the name of the town. It was the only way out of the ninth
ward to the west into Texas. I am not going to look it up again. If
your interested, you can look it up.

>
> > I do
> > not understand how a small community of mostly God fearing/loving
> > people can make that sort of moral judgement during a human crises.
>
> Why don't you understand the tragedy of fallen humankind?  Humankind
> is objectively biased toward sin and evil.
>
> > Even if the towns people viewed them as sinners who's wives happen to
> > pray quiet often, how do they justify that Jesus would help them in
> > their pursuit in salvation after blatantly causing death and suffering
> > to protect their own possessions? Does their good book mention them
> > sinners vs. us moral judgment?
>
> Maybe this helps:
>
> http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp
>
> God saves wretched, evil, morally filthy sinners, those who have
> nothing else going for them and nothing of their own to merit God's
> wonderful favor.  Abundantly He pardons and restores the vilest and
> most incorrigible offender who simply believes with a childlike trust
> the completed work of Jesus Christ.

That would be them, except you left out tobaccer chewin.
Thanks,
>
> Regards,
>
> Brock

[Tim]

Hi pokoj, good to hear from you.

I started out being raised in a large city where large parks were
packed with families on summer weekends, most responsible moms
attended at least two parent teachers association meetings and a lot
of parents were in bowling leagues. Folks new most everyone that
shopped at the local stores. The professional people lived within a
few blocks of the factory workers. Then we moved to a small town that
was really only a suburb of the big city. I would describe the small
town more like yours. Although the local Catholic church seemed to be
involved in the community quite a bit. The rest of the church people
seem to be going through the motions.

When you mention pockets of online interaction where folks seem more
open and honest than attempted in their, I guess physical social
lives, i wonder if it is not that they can let some of their fears
down by not being face to face. Yet, I wonder how sincere they are
compared to their wishes to be. Face to face one can read another's
sincerity.

Anyhow, I'm glad to here you found a group of folks that have doused
their fears enough to trust one another. It is a breath of fresh air
today.

[pokoj]

"I started out being raised in a large city where large parks were
packed with families on summer weekends, most responsible moms
attended at least two parent teachers association meetings and a lot
of parents were in bowling leagues. Folks new most everyone that
shopped at the local stores. The professional people lived within a
few blocks of the factory workers. Then we moved to a small town that
was really only a suburb of the big city. I would describe the small
town more like yours. Although the local Catholic church seemed to be
involved in the community quite a bit. The rest of the church people
seem to be going through the motions. "

Yeah it happens, seemingly more often than not. The facade of a
social club church was what helped me to build up my walls in the
first place. Of course in withdrawing from that I became some kind of
a walking contradiction, it is certainly not a valid response to
withdraw from society when you don't like the way people interact...
Kind of counterproductive...
---------------------------------

"When you mention pockets of online interaction where folks seem more
open and honest than attempted in their, I guess physical social
lives, i wonder if it is not that they can let some of their fears
down by not being face to face. Yet, I wonder how sincere they are
compared to their wishes to be. Face to face one can read another's
sincerity."

I'm sure it is fear based, and can become a crutch or even a stumbling
block to those who force themselves to live vicariously through it,
but it also is great practice if you don't know how to engage people
face to face... At least it was for me... I'm still learning. The
few of us from the BT community actually becoming trusting enough to
meet up in real life was a really cool experience, and has solidified
itself as a wonderful memory to me (even though I was much less
talkative in person, I was no less appreciative to those who were
there :)
-------------------------------

"Anyhow, I'm glad to here you found a group of folks that have doused
their fears enough to trust one another. It is a breath of fresh air
today."

It is. Its challenging and makes you vulnerable and awkward but it is
a beautiful thing.

[pokoj]

just saw this... pretty relevant

http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles.html

[Tim]

On May 16, 10:40 pm, pokoj <pokoj1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> just saw this... pretty relevant

I'm always doing off the wall searches so I am not sure if it can
figure out my interests. The thing that is most disturbing is the
first fifty pages of current affairs it picks out for us from one word
we enter in a line. We have to think of different indirect words to
try and find what we are looking for. Are there any words that hip-hop
does not use. I have never searched for hip-hop but I have seen a
million results.
>
> http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles.html

[Joe]

This is much better stuff, coming from you, than all your previous
extolling of how much better the Lakota are than the Christians. You
seem to have used the word "soul" in an unfamiliar way, but without
quibbling over your terminology, I get the gist of what you are saying
here. Keep it up!

[Tim]

I never claimed it being a better way. I agree with honor but not how
far they carried it. A period of shame is sufficient. No need to
permanently cast out a sinner. I think difference is important in
understanding one's own spiritual views. I think it is important to
know all the different ways in which humans related to gods and
spirits. There are some prominent patterns that explain humans needs.
There are some different shoes to put oneself in while viewing one's
own views.

[Joe]

I agree wholeheartedly. That's another reason I come here!