Re: Partaker in the sins of others

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.

Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming others?

Jeff...

[duke]

Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

>Jeff...

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

[No Pet]

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:15:33 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

No.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:
"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>
>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming others?

>Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate
you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.

29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke
6:27-29 (ANIV)

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message news:

"1st Century Apostolic wrote:
>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>
>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming others?
>
>>Jeff...

>No.

I'd say he did!

"And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill"
Matt 19:18

"Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that
take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Matt 26:52 (KJV)

"Love your enemies'

"Love your neighbour as yourself".

Jeff...

[PATRICK]

As America turns to God for guidance and strength in the war on
terrorism, its actions must be shaped by God's rules for when and how
military action may be taken -- what Catholic theology calls just war
doctrine. It is important that ordinary citizens be informed about
these rules so they can help inform our leaders at key junctures
through the democratic process.

http://www.catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

In the Beatitudes, Jesus tells us "blessed are the peacemakers" (Matt.
5:9). Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount he tells us "if any one
strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt.
5:39). From such verses some have concluded that Christianity is a
pacifist religion and that violence is never permitted.

But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force,
telling the apostles, "let him who has no sword sell his mantle and
buy one" (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?

In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote
peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But
they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not
be allowed to remain unchecked.

Added weight is given to this realization when one recognizes that
Scripture -- all of Scripture -- is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16).
This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New
Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.

The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is "a time to kill"
(Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded
the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was
always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for.
Thus the psalmist exclaims, "how good and pleasant it is when brothers
dwell in unity!" (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be
achieved without force, force must be used.

In the same way, the New Testament sets forth the goal of peace but
acknowledges the legitimate use of force. It does so by John the
Baptist's acknowledgment that Roman soldiers, whose job it was to
enforce the Pax Romana, or "Peace of Rome," could keep their jobs
(Luke 3:14) and by Paul's observation that the state "does not bear
the sword in vain" but is "God's servant for your good" (Rom. 13:4).

As long as Christianity remained a minority religion in the Roman
Empire, it was not forced to put these insights together into a formal
theory of when warfare could be used. But as Christianity grew
predominant, more attention had to be devoted to this subject. By the
time of Augustine (A.D. 354-430) the need for a theory of when warfare
was just was keen, and Augustine provided one, crystallizing biblical
principles into what is now known as just war doctrine. In the
intervening centuries the theory has been refined, but its framework
remains as he gave it.

[No Pet]

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 21:24:04 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>"1st Century Apostolic wrote:
>>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>>
>>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming others?
>>
>>>Jeff...
>
>>No.
>
>I'd say he did!
>

Well, you are wrong, and worst yet, you know it.

>"And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill"
>Matt 19:18
>

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mat 19:17-19 KJV)

He was repeating the 10 commandments to a Jew as a question. Also,
everyone at that time was under the law, as a Jew.

>"Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that
>take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:52 (KJV)
>

Where does he command not to use the sword? And why did He ask them to
bring a sword?

>"Love your enemies'
>
>"Love your neighbour as yourself".
>
>Jeff...
>

Where is any commandment not to have or use a sword?
>
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take
it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell
his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is
written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the
transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they
said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is
enough. (Luk 22:36-38 KJV)

And this happened right before the situation you quoted in Matthew,
above.

God changes not. He supported the warriors in war in the OT, and He
does still.

[duke]

Again I ask you. Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:ucg3eb5cvhfipsima...@4ax.com...

On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:49:27 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"duke" wrote in message news:
>"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>>
>>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming
>>>others?

>>Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

>27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who
>hate
>you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
>29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke
>6:27-29 (ANIV)

~Again I ask you. Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

YES!
Christ has plainly declared:
"29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.".
Is that defending oneself?

"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all

they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)

Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
disobeying Christ's terrible warning.

Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father
hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
John 18:11 (KJV)

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now
is my kingdom not from hence."
John 18:36 (KJV)

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Rod" wrote in message news:
> Anyone, you, me, or whomever, if we see someone doing
> something wrong and we turn a blind eye and say, God Bless you, as we
> wave bye bye is blessing both them and the sin they were doing. That
> is what the scriptures mean.

Quite correct, Rod.
"10 If anyone comes to teach you, and he doesn’t believe what Christ taught,
don’t even invite him into your home. Don’t encourage him in any way. 11 If
you do, you will be a partner with him in his wickedness." 2 John 1:10-11
(TLB)

The reward for tolerating divorced & remarrieds, [same] sex fornicators, and
heretical women priests in todays churches then?

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:44:43 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
to send peace, but a sword.

[No Pet]

Hate to burst your bubble, But I wrote that. For that very reason.

[Rod]

On 3/10/2016 2:54 PM, 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist wrote:
> "Rod" wrote in message news:
>> Anyone, you, me, or whomever, if we see someone doing
>> something wrong and we turn a blind eye and say, God Bless you, as we
>> wave bye bye is blessing both them and the sin they were doing. That
>> is what the scriptures mean.

I agree with this, but it is NOT what pete has been saying or doing.
Pete thru his words has chosen to blame an entire church and people that
had no knowledge of particular peoples sins as guilt as guilty as the perp.

he denies it but none the less it is true.

[No Pet]

I have never said anything different.
So if it is true it should not be difficult to prove.

Quote the words.

[duke]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:44:43 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"duke" wrote in message news:ucg3eb5cvhfipsima...@4ax.com...
>
>On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:49:27 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>"duke" wrote in message news:
>>"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>>>
>>>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming
>>>>others?
>
>>>Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?
>
>>27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who
>>hate
>>you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
>>29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke
>>6:27-29 (ANIV)
>
>~Again I ask you. Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?

Hell no.

>YES!
>Christ has plainly declared:
>"29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.".
>Is that defending oneself?

Self defense is not needed. That verse is a call to avoid "tit for tat".

>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all
>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)

>Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
>disobeying Christ's terrible warning.

He never said not to defend ourselves. It's against human nature.

>Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
>"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father
>hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
>John 18:11 (KJV)
>
>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now
>is my kingdom not from hence."
>John 18:36 (KJV)

He was on a special mission from God. Neither you nor I nor any man other than
Jesus Christ has what it takes to avoid self defense.

>Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:o5u3eblhudks1m1ah...@4ax.com...

~Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
~to send peace, but a sword.

But not one to harm anyone with it as he has warned:

"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all
they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:17:52 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

He did not ask anyone to be a peace activist, it is not part of the
program.

>
>But not one to harm anyone with it as he has warned:
>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all
>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)
>
>Jeff...
>
>

I could have sworn I posted this, but,...
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let

him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let
him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be

accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for
the things concerning me have an end.

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he

said unto them, It is enough.

The disciples never believed the way you did. In fact they asked Jesus
if they should use the sword then.

It is not unlawful to kill, but it is to murder.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:bk99eb1ngn5m05g1k...@4ax.com...

Well Is it?

>>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
>>all
>>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)
>>
>>Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
>>disobeying Christ's terrible warning.
>>
>>Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
>>"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my
>>Father
>>hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
>>John 18:11 (KJV)
>>
>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>now
>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>John 18:36 (KJV)
>>
>>Jeff...
>
>~Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
>~to send peace, but a sword.

~He did not ask anyone to be a peace activist,

Really?

> it is not part of the program.

Christ declared it was.
" 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of
God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for
theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 5:9-10 (KJV)

>>But not one to harm anyone with it as he has warned:
>>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
>>all
>>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)
>
>>Jeff...

>I could have sworn I posted this, but,...
>Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let
>him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let
>him sell his garment, and buy one.
>Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be
>accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for
>the things concerning me have an end.
>Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he
>said unto them, It is enough.

>The disciples never believed the way you did. In fact they asked Jesus
>if they should use the sword then.

And he told them NO! when a disciple used one in the garden trying to defend
Christ himself.

"51 And behold, one of them that were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and
drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his
ear. 52 Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place:

for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matt 26:51-52 (ASV)

And 60 million paid the price in two world wars for disobeying Christ's dire
warning.

>It is not unlawful to kill,

Christ disagrees.
"19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do
not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and
mother."
Mark 10:18-19 (KJV)

>but it is to murder.

How can you "love your enemies" as Christ has commanded then go and kill
them?
It is impossible.

Jeff...

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:knb6ebhchlm9q8c4u...@4ax.com...

Yes! self defending one's self.

>>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
>>all
>>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)

>>Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
>>disobeying Christ's terrible warning.

>He never said not to defend ourselves.

"29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.".

So is that defending oneself?
Well is it?

>It's against human nature.

Exactly, most of Christ's commandments are.

>>Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
>>"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my
>>Father
>>hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
>>John 18:11 (KJV)
>
>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>now
>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>John 18:36 (KJV)

>He was on a special mission from God.

Yes! and told us what we should and should not do, and one is using the
'sword' against another human.

for all
"they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

>Neither you nor I nor any man other than
>Jesus Christ has what it takes to avoid self defense.

it's a matter of self-control and loving Christ more then our own
inclinations and impulses to disobey both him and his Apostles.

For no-one has to fight back and no-one has to "kill" or "Murder" their
enemies.

We should be ready to sacrifice our lives not to kill enemies, but to love
them as commanded.

"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36
Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were
accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Romans 8:35-36 (ASV)


Jeff...

[duke]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:45:52 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"duke" wrote in message news:knb6ebhchlm9q8c4u...@4ax.com...
>
>On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:44:43 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"duke" wrote in message news:ucg3eb5cvhfipsima...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:49:27 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"duke" wrote in message news:
>>>"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>>>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>>>>>I run from no man. Never have. Unlike the cowards who skipped out on
>>>>>>their draft with excuses, Earl Weber.
>>>>
>>>>>Didn't Christ forbid his followers from using violence and harming
>>>>>others?
>>
>>>>Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?
>>
>>>27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who
>>>hate
>>>you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
>>>29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke
>>>6:27-29 (ANIV)
>>
>>~Again I ask you. Are you suggesting that self defense is wrong?
>Hell no.

Great. The correct answer.

>>YES!
>>Christ has plainly declared:
>>"29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.".
>>Is that defending oneself?
>Self defense is not needed. That verse is a call to avoid "tit for tat".
>Yes! self defending one's self.

Actually it's meant to avoid "retaliation" which can thus escalate.

>>>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
>>>all
>>>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>>>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)
>
>>>Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
>>>disobeying Christ's terrible warning.

>>He never said not to defend ourselves.
>"29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.".
>So is that defending oneself?
>Well is it?

One on one without danger of injury, walk away.

>>It's against human nature.
>Exactly, most of Christ's commandments are.

That's what makes the cross so godly. He went to the cross in full obedience
and love of his Father in heaven - never to turn away from what was coming.

>>>Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
>>>"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my
>>>Father
>>>hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
>>>John 18:11 (KJV)
>>
>>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>>now
>>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>>John 18:36 (KJV)

>>He was on a special mission from God.

>Yes! and told us what we should and should not do, and one is using the
>'sword' against another human.
>for all
>"they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

But not in refusing self defense.

>>Neither you nor I nor any man other than
>>Jesus Christ has what it takes to avoid self defense.

>it's a matter of self-control and loving Christ more then our own
>inclinations and impulses to disobey both him and his Apostles.

God said you can defend yourself. It's inhuman to not defend yourself or your
loved ones.

>For no-one has to fight back and no-one has to "kill" or "Murder" their
>enemies.
>
>We should be ready to sacrifice our lives not to kill enemies, but to love
>them as commanded.

You have a horrible misunderstanding. Only Jesus never sinned. Refusing to
defend your own children is NOT what God calls us to. You need to understand
the difference between offensive actions and defensive actions.

>"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
>anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36
>Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were
>accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
>Romans 8:35-36 (ASV)
>
>
>Jeff...
>
>
>
>

[PATRICK]

I gots no problem wif this.

[No Pet]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:39:50 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

Yes, the first level of it, nothing is said to what happens after the
other cheek is offered. You see, the world can usually conquer the
man who fights back. It is used to jungle warfare and to the principle
of retaliation. But it does not know how to deal with the person who
repays every wrong with a kindness.

It is a one time slap, or whatever, but it does not infer pummeling.
Well, does it?

If a gang of gays were to attack you for sexual pleasure, would you
turn your other cheek to them a well?

>>>"2 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for
>>>all
>>>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>>>Matt 26:52-53 (KJV)
>>>
>>>Approx. 60 million+ deaths in the two world wars, proved the truth of
>>>disobeying Christ's terrible warning.
>>>
>>>Even Christ refused to defend himself or be defended with the sword:
>>>"Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my
>>>Father
>>>hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
>>>John 18:11 (KJV)
>>>
>>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>>now
>>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>>John 18:36 (KJV)
>>>
>>>Jeff...
>>
>>~Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
>>~to send peace, but a sword.
>
>~He did not ask anyone to be a peace activist,
>
>Really?
>

Yes, it is out of the realm of what a believer is to do.

>> it is not part of the program.
>
>Christ declared it was.
>" 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of
>God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for
>theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
>Matt 5:9-10 (KJV)
>

Do you not know the difference between a peacemaker and an activist?

It is YOUR job to be at peace with all men, as much as possible.

Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight
of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably
with all men. (Rom 12:17-18 KJV)

It does not say you should coerce others, by sit downs or in your face
attitudes.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye
be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end
is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against
kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes,
in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Jesus gave no dire warning there.

>>It is not unlawful to kill,
>
>Christ disagrees.
>"19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do
>not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and
>mother."
>Mark 10:18-19 (KJV)
>

If you truly believed that then you would be eating no meat, nor any
living vegetable, but only the ripened fruit of a tree.

You OTH are a hypocrite using the KJV here to suit your purposes, when
it is a well established fact that in the day that was translated it
specifically meant "to murder". It you like to play those games then
who should believe you on the face of what you say when you knowingly
play these types of games?

Well? Who?

>>but it is to murder.
>
>How can you "love your enemies" as Christ has commanded then go and kill
>them?
>It is impossible.
>

No, you can pray for them as you mow them down, knowing that like ones
honorable self that serves their country, so are they. So you can pray
that they will have already met their maker and have been born again
already. They are not in the position of being your personal enemy,
nor you theirs.

A cop arresting you is not your enemy, they are doing their job.

How about you establishing the proper definitions, and then
re-evaluate where you are right and wrong in your thinking.

Jesus said, Take up your cross. Are you dragging one around in full
view of those around you?

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news"
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>>now
>>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>>John 18:36 (KJV)

>>He was on a special mission from God.

>Yes! and told us what we should and should not do, and one is using the
>'sword' against another human.
>for all
>"they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

~But not in refusing self defense.

Oh! yes!
For look how many millions perished [just as Christ declared they would]
by defending their families and homeland against enemies that Christ has
commanded we are to love?
Think about that!

Jeff...

[No Pet]

Now you have truly departed from reality.

Do you know the difference between those who are Christians, and those
who are Christians in name only?

Only the believer is under the commandment to Love one another.

[duke]

God calls us to defend our families to the death if necessary.

[duke]

Wrong. All mankind is called to live the 10 commandments.

[No Pet]

You still have not learned, have you. The 10 commandments were given
to the Hebrews, by contract, agreed to by both parties.

The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
agreement.

Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message news:

~ You still have not learned, have you. The 10 commandments were given
~ to the Hebrews, by contract, agreed to by both parties.

~ The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
~ agreement.

Indeed.

~ Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.

And has he been circumcised?

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:asadebppq4s0okjfs...@4ax.com...

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 21:46:23 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"duke" wrote in message news"
>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>>>"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then
>>>>would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
>>>>now
>>>>is my kingdom not from hence."
>>>>John 18:36 (KJV)
>
>>>He was on a special mission from God.
>
>>Yes! and told us what we should and should not do, and one is using the
>>'sword' against another human.
>>for all
>>"they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>
>~But not in refusing self defense.
>
>Oh! yes!
>For look how many millions perished [just as Christ declared they would]
>by defending their families and homeland against enemies that Christ has
>commanded we are to love?
>Think about that!

~God calls us to defend our families to the death if necessary.

Not so:
Obedience to Christ is foremost irrespective of family.

"Anyone who wants to be my follower must love me far more than he does his
own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his
own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
NOT an option!

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
John 14:15 (ANIV)

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:43:03 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

I wouldn't know, most people that have been had no choice in the
matter, just like those who were baptized soon after being born.

[No Pet]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:49:08 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than his
>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>
>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
>NOT an option!
>
>"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
>John 14:15 (ANIV)
>
>Jeff...
>
>
>
>

Jeff, God sets up the rulers and governments, study up on them and
then integrate that understanding into what you have. Then let us
know.

[duke]

Go ahead and live outside the 10 commandments. And watch what happens to you in
demise.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai to serve as principles of
moral behavior for the human race. The Ten Commandments of God are the
foundation of the moral code and legal system of justice for Western Christian
civilization.
http://biblescripture.net/Commandments.html

Of course, you've never been reborn in water, and maybe you live in a pagan
society, so I can see your reluctance to follow them

>The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
>agreement.

They became Jews and now Christians.

>Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.

I never lie on the ng. I see thru you like a open book.

[duke]

Baptism in water is the sign that replaces circumcision for Jews. Each is sign
of the covenant - old vs new.

[duke]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:49:08 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than his

>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

But some believe that rape and murder of their wife and children is better than
protecting them.

>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
>NOT an option!

Agape love is one of personal relationships. Sick people use this as a basis
for pacifism and let the innocent be butchers and gassed.

[duke]

>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his

>>own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>>
>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
>>NOT an option!
>>
>>"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
>>John 14:15 (ANIV)
>>
>>Jeff...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Jeff, God sets up the rulers and governments, study up on them and
>then integrate that understanding into what you have. Then let us
>know.

Personally, I already know.

[No Pet]

circumcision saved no one. Just like water. you also are clueless
about what covenant you are speaking of.

[No Pet]

Are you now following Judaism?

Read the bible, stop showing off your ignorance of it.

>Of course, you've never been reborn in water, and maybe you live in a pagan
>society, so I can see your reluctance to follow them
>

you are part of paganism.

>>The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
>>agreement.
>
>They became Jews and now Christians.
>

Ignorance speaking there.

>>Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.
>
>I never lie on the ng. I see thru you like a open book.
>
>the dukester, American-American

You lie all the time, especially about me.

[duke]

>circumcision saved no one. Just like water. you also are clueless
>about what covenant you are speaking of.

And here I thought you could read.

[duke]

In accord with the 10 commandments?? They were given to the human race.

>Read the bible, stop showing off your ignorance of it.

Not even of intelligence suggested in your words.

>>Of course, you've never been reborn in water, and maybe you live in a pagan
>>society, so I can see your reluctance to follow them

>you are part of paganism.

I'm following what Jesus taught spiritually and historically. You should move
up to Christianity.

>>>The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
>>>agreement.
>>
>>They became Jews and now Christians.
>Ignorance speaking there.

Principles of moral behavior for the human race.

If you were a Christian, you'd understand this.

>>>Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.
>>I never lie on the ng. I see thru you like a open book.

>You lie all the time, especially about me.

About you, it's always the truth as you demonstrate it.

[No Pet]

If you could read you would know what I know.

For now you are stuck with someone reading it to you,

[No Pet]

Nope, if it was you could show proof.

>>Read the bible, stop showing off your ignorance of it.
>
>Not even of intelligence suggested in your words.
>
>>>Of course, you've never been reborn in water, and maybe you live in a pagan
>>>society, so I can see your reluctance to follow them
>
>>you are part of paganism.
>
>I'm following what Jesus taught spiritually and historically. You should move
>up to Christianity.
>
>>>>The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
>>>>agreement.
>>>
>>>They became Jews and now Christians.
>>Ignorance speaking there.
>
>Principles of moral behavior for the human race.
>
>If you were a Christian, you'd understand this.
>

You don't even know what a Christian is.

>>>>Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.
>>>I never lie on the ng. I see thru you like a open book.
>
>>You lie all the time, especially about me.
>
>About you, it's always the truth as you demonstrate it.
>

Yes, I do demonstrate the truth. Pay attention, K?

>the dukester, American-American

What are you going to do when you find out that you are left behind?

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:vk8eeb1s4fgt4ahc6...@4ax.com...

>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his

>own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>
>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
>NOT an option!
>
>"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
>John 14:15 (ANIV)
>
>Jeff...
>
>

~Jeff, God sets up the rulers and governments, study up on them and
~then integrate that understanding into what you have. Then let us
~know.

'Governments' and 'Powers' are permitted to use violence and "Bear the
sword" but not Christ's own brethren they have been well warned against it's
use....

"for all "they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:lftfebh5k00od3elu...@4ax.com...

>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his

>own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

~But some believe that rape and murder of their wife and children is better
than
~protecting them.

>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything
>>is
>>NOT an option!

>Agape love is one of personal relationships. Sick people use this as a
>basis
>for pacifism and let the innocent be butchers and gassed.

What governments do arranged of by God is of know personal concern of
Christ's faithful followers.

They strive to obey his commands not to fight or harm others, or defend
themselves or in regards to others.

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:02:33 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than his

>>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>>
>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything is
>>NOT an option!
>>
>>"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
>>John 14:15 (ANIV)
>>
>>Jeff...
>>
>>
>~Jeff, God sets up the rulers and governments, study up on them and
>~then integrate that understanding into what you have. Then let us
>~know.
>
>'Governments' and 'Powers' are permitted to use violence and "Bear the
>sword" but not Christ's own brethren they have been well warned against it's
>use....
>"for all "they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>
>Jeff...

Jeff, since those in the church are supposed to pay honor unto who
honor is do, pay their taxes, follow all the laws, etc. Then I imagine
that you would have no problem serving in the armed forces under
conscription like was done in the early days as well?

Common sense says that by whatever tools one fights with that there is
a chance of death by that same tool. God gave us all common sense,
some do not use it, eh?

[duke]

>If you could read you would know what I know.

Circumcision is the sign of the old covenant. Baptism replaced circumcision as
the sign of the new covenant. What do you know?

>For now you are stuck with someone reading it to you,

Do I have to keep reading for you?

[duke]

Well, that's why you are really a pagan, and here I was at least giving you
credit for being a messianic Jew.

>>>Read the bible, stop showing off your ignorance of it.
>>Not even of intelligence suggested in your words.

>>>>Of course, you've never been reborn in water, and maybe you live in a pagan
>>>>society, so I can see your reluctance to follow them
>>>you are part of paganism.

>>I'm following what Jesus taught spiritually and historically. You should move
>>up to Christianity.

You're finally starting to figure out your mistake.

>>>>>The Gentiles, even as spoken about by Paul, were not under such an
>>>>>agreement.
>>>>
>>>>They became Jews and now Christians.
>>>Ignorance speaking there.
>>
>>Principles of moral behavior for the human race.
>>
>>If you were a Christian, you'd understand this.

>You don't even know what a Christian is.

Yep, baptized in the Holy Spirit as demonstrated by Jesus in the Jordan.

>>>>>Even you don't abide by the 10 as evidenced by your love of lying.
>>>>I never lie on the ng. I see thru you like a open book.
>>
>>>You lie all the time, especially about me.
>>
>>About you, it's always the truth as you demonstrate it.
>>
>
>Yes, I do demonstrate the truth. Pay attention, K?

I do pay attention, and I don't see anything. You can't even tell me how you
were "supposedly" reborn as you clearly reject baptism.

>>the dukester, American-American
>What are you going to do when you find out that you are left behind?

Sit on the side of a hill with you and reminisce about how things could have
been.

[duke]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:06:29 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than his

>>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>
>~But some believe that rape and murder of their wife and children is better
>than
>~protecting them.

I find that hard to believe, but if you say so.

>>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything
>>>is
>>>NOT an option!
>
>>Agape love is one of personal relationships. Sick people use this as a
>>basis
>>for pacifism and let the innocent be butchers and gassed.

>What governments do arranged of by God is of know personal concern of
>Christ's faithful followers.

Yet Jesus said we are to follow your civil leaders. And when it comes to
protecting the innocent and the weak, we definitely are called by God to help.

>They strive to obey his commands not to fight or harm others, or defend
>themselves or in regards to others.

God never commanded anyone not to help the weak and the innocent.

>Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 07:28:54 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

>>If you could read you would know what I know.
>
>Circumcision is the sign of the old covenant. Baptism replaced circumcision as
>the sign of the new covenant. What do you know?
>

I know that statement of yours is incorrect and that you speak it out
of ignorance.

>>For now you are stuck with someone reading it to you,
>
>Do I have to keep reading for you?
>

Yes, until you can get it correct.

>the dukester, American-American

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:k5ujeblh5avsr8qb6...@4ax.com...

>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than
>>his

>>own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>>
>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything
>>is
>>NOT an option!
>>
>>"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
>>John 14:15 (ANIV)
>>
>>Jeff...
>>
>>
>~Jeff, God sets up the rulers and governments, study up on them and
>~then integrate that understanding into what you have. Then let us
>~know.
>
>'Governments' and 'Powers' are permitted to use violence and "Bear the
>sword" but not Christ's own brethren they have been well warned against
>it's
>use....
>"for all "they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>
>Jeff...

~Jeff, since those in the church are supposed to pay honor unto who
~honor is do, pay their taxes, follow all the laws, etc. Then I imagine
~that you would have no problem serving in the armed forces under
~conscription like was done in the early days as well?

Yes! indeed, for we are not obligated to obey any law that contravenes any
law of Christ or his Apostle's doctrines and practises.

Remember when the authorities forbade the Apostles to stop spreading
Christ's gospel?

What was their reply.

"27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And
the high priest asked them, 28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach
in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and
intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 But Peter and the apostles
answered and said, *We must obey God* rather than men."
Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)

Even then they were whipped and imprisoned for teaching Christ.

Thus as Christ has forbidden hating and harming our enemies and neighbours,
the faithful could not possibly go and kill humans in man's wars.

Or we get the outrages evil of brethren killing brethren as happened in the
world wars, and then thanking God for their victories!

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:359lebtotvmsc0mmp...@4ax.com...

>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than
>>his

>>own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

>
>~But some believe that rape and murder of their wife and children is better
>than
>~protecting them.

I find that hard to believe, but if you say so.

>>>Thus to use personal violence to humans in defence of anyone or anything
>>>is
>>>NOT an option!
>
>>Agape love is one of personal relationships. Sick people use this as a
>>basis
>>for pacifism and let the innocent be butchers and gassed.

>What governments do arranged of by God is of know personal concern of
>Christ's faithful followers.

Yet Jesus said we are to follow your civil leaders. And when it comes to
protecting the innocent and the weak, we definitely are called by God to
help.

>They strive to obey his commands not to fight or harm others, or defend
>themselves or in regards to others.

~God never commanded anyone not to help the weak and the innocent.

Help them indeed, but not by using violence and hating, harming and killing
enemies, which Christ has forbidden.

Has not Christ declared:
"But I say love your enemies do good to those who hate you"

"Resist not evil "

"Offer the other cheek also"

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:38:21 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

>>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than
>>>his

>>>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

You just made a major foo pah.

They were not the government. Remember Pilate and the Romans?
You are speaking of a bunch of people who have the same attributes as
the RCC and the Orthodox churches.

I wouldn't be following anything those people commanded either.

>
>Even then they were whipped and imprisoned for teaching Christ.
>
>Thus as Christ has forbidden hating and harming our enemies and neighbours,
>the faithful could not possibly go and kill humans in man's wars.
>

The early believers who were conscripted did, they realize that God
set up the governments for the reasons quoted or point out to you in
the bible. And in America they allowed the wimps to serve their
country anyhow, by being nurses, cooks and such. You tax monies are
used to kill people, yet you pay them? You also support the military
in other various ways as well. The bible says you are to support your
government, it did not say you get to decide how.

>Or we get the outrages evil of brethren killing brethren as happened in the
>world wars, and then thanking God for their victories!

Then perhaps you should apologize and make amends by going to those
countries and offer to stay in their jails, fact is you should be
writing letters of apologies to all the various peoples of the world.
Especially Japan. While you are at it, apologize to the Filipinos
since the Japanese murdered them by the 10's of thousands, raping the
kids, women and starving them to death. While enslaving the healthier
one. Just why do you thing God sets up countries to rule?

[duke]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:36:32 -0700, No Pet <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 07:28:54 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>>If you could read you would know what I know.
>>
>>Circumcision is the sign of the old covenant. Baptism replaced circumcision as
>>the sign of the new covenant. What do you know?

>I know that statement of yours is incorrect and that you speak it out
>of ignorance.

You know squat. That's always been your problem.

[duke]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:42:41 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>>>own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters遥es, more than
>>>his

>>>own life熔therwise he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26 (TLB)

Until you learn to handle attributes, you're repeating my words and talking to
yourself.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message news:

"1st Century Apostolic

>>Remember when the authorities forbade the Apostles to stop spreading
>>Christ's gospel?
>
>>What was their reply.
>
>>"27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And
>>the high priest asked them, 28 saying, We strictly charged you not to
>>teach
>>in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and
>>intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 But Peter and the apostles
>>answered and said, *We must obey God* rather than men."
>>Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)

>You just made a major foo pah.
>They were not the government. Remember Pilate and the Romans?
>You are speaking of a bunch of people who have the same attributes as
>the RCC and the Orthodox churches.

Even so the argument stands whether the Jewish Council or the government is
in power.

"*We must obey God* rather than men."
>Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)

And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to those
who hate us"
Thus killing them is not an option.

>>Even then they were whipped and imprisoned for teaching Christ.
>
>>Thus as Christ has forbidden hating and harming our enemies and
>>neighbours,
>>the faithful could not possibly go and kill humans in man's wars.

>The early believers who were conscripted did,

No they didn't:
For Christ had warned them. "Do not kill" "Do not commit murder"

>they realize that God
>set up the governments for the reasons quoted or point out to you in
>the bible.

"12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what
shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is
appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And
what shall we do? And he said unto them, *Do violence to no man*, neither
accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"
Luke 3:12-14 (KJV)

>And in America they allowed the wimps to serve their
>country anyhow, by being nurses, cooks and such. You tax monies are
>used to kill people, yet you pay them?

So did Christ but he still commanded to love our enemies and neighbours.
It's impossible to do that by harming and killing them.

>You also support the military
>in other various ways as well. The bible says you are to support your
>government, it did not say you get to decide how.

It does concerning killing enemies and neighbours.
Christ has forbidden it.

>>Or we get the outrages evil of brethren killing brethren as happened in
>>the
>>world wars, and then thanking God for their victories!

>Then perhaps you should apologize and make amends by going to those
>countries and offer to stay in their jails, fact is you should be
>writing letters of apologies to all the various peoples of the world.
>Especially Japan. While you are at it, apologize to the Filipinos
>since the Japanese murdered them by the 10's of thousands, raping the
>kids, women and starving them to death. While enslaving the healthier
>one. Just why do you thing God sets up countries to rule?

I do not need to write to any of them, for I never fought them oe would have
considered ever killing anyone as Christ has forbidden it.

>>Common sense says that by whatever tools one fights with that there is
>>a chance of death by that same tool. God gave us all common sense,
>>some do not use it, eh?
>

Indeed, they don't, Christ commands we love our enemies and be prepared to
die if called to inh obeying that command, yet idiotic men men demand we
kill our enemies and neighbours them to save ourselves.

For as we are reminded :
"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36
Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were
accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Romans 8:35-36 (ASV)

Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:01:13 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

>You know squat. That's always been your problem.

That I don't know you all that well, is True.

[No Pet]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 22:12:48 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>"1st Century Apostolic
>>>Remember when the authorities forbade the Apostles to stop spreading
>>>Christ's gospel?
>>
>>>What was their reply.
>>
>>>"27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And
>>>the high priest asked them, 28 saying, We strictly charged you not to
>>>teach
>>>in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and
>>>intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 But Peter and the apostles
>>>answered and said, *We must obey God* rather than men."
>>>Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)
>
>>You just made a major foo pah.
>>They were not the government. Remember Pilate and the Romans?
>>You are speaking of a bunch of people who have the same attributes as
>>the RCC and the Orthodox churches.
>
>Even so the argument stands whether the Jewish Council or the government is
>in power.

No it doesn't. It has to conflict with the will of the Lord, and if he
said to buy swords, then your thinking is skewed. Since he also said
to beat your plows into weapons of war for this time, flies in the
face of your personal understanding.

>"*We must obey God* rather than men."
>>Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)
>
>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to those
>who hate us"
>Thus killing them is not an option.
>

How do you know they hate you? Did you ask them? Or did you just make
it up. Why do you presume that you have to hate in order to kill?

>>>Even then they were whipped and imprisoned for teaching Christ.
>>
>>>Thus as Christ has forbidden hating and harming our enemies and
>>>neighbours,
>>>the faithful could not possibly go and kill humans in man's wars.
>
>>The early believers who were conscripted did,
>
>No they didn't:
>For Christ had warned them. "Do not kill" "Do not commit murder"
>

Killing and murder are two separate things, if not then you have
personally been responsible for thousands of deaths.
Perhaps 100's of thousands of deaths. >>they realize that God

>>set up the governments for the reasons quoted or point out to you in
>>the bible.
>
>"12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what
>shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is
>appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And
>what shall we do? And he said unto them, *Do violence to no man*, neither
>accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages"
>Luke 3:12-14 (KJV)
>

Take it for the time it was written, they often beat people just
because they looked at them Wrong. Do you see how you misconstrue
things?

>>And in America they allowed the wimps to serve their
>>country anyhow, by being nurses, cooks and such. You tax monies are
>>used to kill people, yet you pay them?
>
>So did Christ but he still commanded to love our enemies and neighbours.
>It's impossible to do that by harming and killing them.
>

How would you know?

>>You also support the military
>>in other various ways as well. The bible says you are to support your
>>government, it did not say you get to decide how.
>
>It does concerning killing enemies and neighbours.
>Christ has forbidden it.
>

Yet you do it anyhow, why?

>>>Or we get the outrages evil of brethren killing brethren as happened in
>>>the
>>>world wars, and then thanking God for their victories!
>
>>Then perhaps you should apologize and make amends by going to those
>>countries and offer to stay in their jails, fact is you should be
>>writing letters of apologies to all the various peoples of the world.
>>Especially Japan. While you are at it, apologize to the Filipinos
>>since the Japanese murdered them by the 10's of thousands, raping the
>>kids, women and starving them to death. While enslaving the healthier
>>one. Just why do you thing God sets up countries to rule?
>
>I do not need to write to any of them, for I never fought them oe would have
>considered ever killing anyone as Christ has forbidden it.
>

Yet you paid and are paying for it with your tax monies. Do you enjoy
talking out of both out of both sides of your mouth?

>>>Common sense says that by whatever tools one fights with that there is
>>>a chance of death by that same tool. God gave us all common sense,
>>>some do not use it, eh?
>>
>Indeed, they don't, Christ commands we love our enemies and be prepared to
>die if called to inh obeying that command, yet idiotic men men demand we
>kill our enemies and neighbours them to save ourselves.
>

Is your neighbor your enemy? You are not speaking sensibly,

>For as we are reminded :
>"35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
>anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36
>Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were
>accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
>Romans 8:35-36 (ASV)
>

Yes, and they were dying for something, a testimony of their love for
God and Christ. Not a church, not a statue, not a religion, but
Christ. There is a huge difference there.

Think about it.

>Jeff...
>
>
>
>
>
>

[duke]

Hate and kill you and your loved ones, and including all the innocents if the
world, is not simple hate.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:2r8peb97cup7prsha...@4ax.com...

They were not meant to be used as weapons to harm human beings.
For you cannot get away from Christ's dire warning to his disciples:

"Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him.51 But one of the men with
Jesus pulled out his sword and struck the high priest’s slave, slashing off
his ear.
52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die
by the sword."
Matt 26:50-52 (NLT)

Thus he forbad using them to harm or kill others, even enemies, whon his
followers are commanded to "Love" not destroy.

>then your thinking is skewed. Since he also said
>to beat your plows into weapons of war for this time, flies in the
>face of your personal understanding.

Christ never taught that to his brethren.

>>"*We must obey God* rather than men."
>>Acts 5:27-29 (ASV)
>
>>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to
>>those
>>who hate us"
>>Thus killing them is not an option.
>

>>How do you know they hate you? Did you ask them? Or did you just make
>>it up. Why do you presume that you have to hate in order to kill?

So how can you love and enemy by killing him?

>>>Even then they were whipped and imprisoned for teaching Christ.
>>
>>>Thus as Christ has forbidden hating and harming our enemies and
>>>neighbours,
>>>the faithful could not possibly go and kill humans in man's wars.
>
>>The early believers who were conscripted did,
>
>No they didn't:
>For Christ had warned them. "Do not kill" "Do not commit murder"
>

>Killing and murder are two separate things,

Christ and St. Paul covered both:
"Keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt
do no murder"
Matt 19:17-18 (KJV)

"8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another
hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, *Thou
shalt not kill*"
Romans 13:7-9 (KJV)

And again in Revelation the dire warning not to kill anyone with a sword:

"9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity
shall go into captivity: *he that killeth with the sword* must be killed
with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
Rev 13:8-10 (KJV)

Their patience thus sustains them to wait for God to avenge His persecuted
saints.

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to
>>those
>>who hate us"
>>Thus killing them is not an option.

>Hate and kill you and your loved ones, and including all the innocents if
>the
>world, is not simple hate.

Believers do not kill people they are told to love by Christ.

Thus brethren killing brethren in the world wars showed their wickedness in
defying Christ, for they refused to love them, and what does the Scripture
declare about believers who do not love their brethren?
They become murderers.

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer
hath eternal life abiding in him."
1 John 3:15 (KJV)

Jeff...

[duke]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 21:00:24 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"duke" wrote in message news:
>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to
>>>those
>>>who hate us"
>>>Thus killing them is not an option.
>
>>Hate and kill you and your loved ones, and including all the innocents if
>>the
>>world, is not simple hate.
>
>Believers do not kill people they are told to love by Christ.

You're free to allow your wife and daughters to be raped and pillaged.

>Thus brethren killing brethren in the world wars showed their wickedness in
>defying Christ, for they refused to love them, and what does the Scripture
>declare about believers who do not love their brethren?
>They become murderers.

Wrong. To murder is to kill with intent. Civil authority is specified to be
followed by Jesus.

>"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer
>hath eternal life abiding in him."
>1 John 3:15 (KJV)

See, you missed the word "hateth" and "HIS brother"..

But your joy is seeing your female family raped and murdered and do nothing will
not save you.

>Jeff...

[No Pet]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2016 20:51:03 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

Keep your rose colored glasses on Jeff, but the Lord did not say to
beat your plows into weapons of war for nothing. He also did not say
to buy swords for shiny jewelry.

Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into
spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

This stems from a book of prophecy regarding the last days. At the end
of the 7 years of tribulations the reverse order is given.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong
nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword
against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig
tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of
hosts hath spoken it.

And this is the way it shall be for the following eon.

You can argue until you blue in the face, but until you can recognize
the validity of both statements, see and understand the purposes for
what is said, you will be forever living in a house built on sand.

You cannot discredit the word of God without calling Him a liar. Which
is why I harp on seeing and understanding the truths of the matter,
instead of picking a few verses out of which to construct a doctrine
doomed to failure. There have been wars in the heavens, do you think
we are any better than they?

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message

"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>"duke" wrote in message news:
>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to
>>>those
>>>who hate us"
>>>Thus killing them is not an option.
>>
>>Hate and kill you and your loved ones, and including all the innocents if
>>>the world, is not simple hate.
>
>>Believers do not kill people they are told to love by Christ.

>You're free to allow your wife and daughters to be raped and pillaged.

What ever the provocation, even if a million men 'rape and pillage' in wars
and conquests the faithful are still commanded not to "Resist evil" and that
by Christ himself.

"38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for
a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:"
Matt 5:38-39 (KJV)

>>Thus brethren killing brethren in the world wars showed their wickedness
>>in
>>defying Christ, for they refused to love them, and what does the Scripture
>>declare about believers who do not love their brethren?
>>They become murderers.

>Wrong. To murder is to kill with intent.

Which is what brethren did to other brethren along with the heathen in the
world wars, they killed each other with intent to win the war.

>>"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no
>>murderer
>>hath eternal life abiding in him."
>>1 John 3:15 (KJV)

>See, you missed the word "hateth" and "HIS brother".

>But your joy is seeing your female family raped and murdered and do nothing
>will
>not save you.

Not any joy, but on obeying Christ we must be prepared to sacrifice our
lives and families if it comes down to it.
This proves our deepest love for Christ.

For as he has strictly warned:

"Anyone who wants to be my follower must love me far more than he does his

own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his

own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26 (TLB)

Jeff...

[duke]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 07:56:23 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"duke" wrote in message
>"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>"duke" wrote in message news:
>>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>And Christ has declared we must love our enemies and even "Do GOOD to
>>>>those
>>>>who hate us"
>>>>Thus killing them is not an option.
>>>
>>>Hate and kill you and your loved ones, and including all the innocents if
>>>>the world, is not simple hate.
>>
>>>Believers do not kill people they are told to love by Christ.
>
>>You're free to allow your wife and daughters to be raped and pillaged.
>
>What ever the provocation, even if a million men 'rape and pillage' in wars
>and conquests the faithful are still commanded not to "Resist evil" and that
>by Christ himself.

>"38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for
>a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:"
>Matt 5:38-39 (KJV)

Your evil is that you won't protect your family.

>>>Thus brethren killing brethren in the world wars showed their wickedness
>>>in
>>>defying Christ, for they refused to love them, and what does the Scripture
>>>declare about believers who do not love their brethren?
>>>They become murderers.
>
>>Wrong. To murder is to kill with intent.

>Which is what brethren did to other brethren along with the heathen in the
>world wars, they killed each other with intent to win the war.

Jesus said "follow your civil servants". Police action, soldiers do that. You
refuse.

Move to NKorea. I guarantee you'll feel comfortable there.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:
"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>>>>Believers do not kill people they are told to love by Christ.
>
>>>You're free to allow your wife and daughters to be raped and pillaged.
>
>>What ever the provocation, even if a million men 'rape and pillage' in
>>wars
>>and conquests the faithful are still commanded not to "Resist evil" and
>>that
>>by Christ himself.

>>"38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth
>>for
>>a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil:"
>>Matt 5:38-39 (KJV)

>Your evil is that you won't protect your family.

>>>>Thus brethren killing brethren in the world wars showed their wickedness
>>>>in
>>>>defying Christ, for they refused to love them, and what does the
>>>>Scripture
>>>>declare about believers who do not love their brethren?
>>>>They become murderers.
>
>>>Wrong. To murder is to kill with intent.

>>Which is what brethren did to other brethren along with the heathen in the
>>world wars, they killed each other with intent to win the war.

>Jesus said "follow your civil servants".

Obey the government, unless their requests are against Christ commands and
insist one has to kill or murder enemies and neighbours.

For as the Apostles declared "We must obey God rather then men"
Why do you think they were beaten with stripes and spent time in prison?

>Police action, soldiers do that.

But they are not followers of Christ or his commandments.

>You refuse.

Indubitably!!!
For Christ has forbidden his 'true' followers to "Resist evil" and use
violence and the sword on anyone, just as the castigated the diciples that
used a sword, when they came to arrest him.
"52 "Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those using swords will get
killed".
Matt 26:52 (TLB)

>Move to NKorea. I guarantee you'll feel comfortable there.

I am quite comfortable here in Britain, thanks.

Jeff...

[duke]

Exactly. Police action, defense of other nations, etc are called for in a civil
society. And Jesus well told us it is our duty to help the innocent victims.

>For as the Apostles declared "We must obey God rather then men"
>Why do you think they were beaten with stripes and spent time in prison?
>
>>Police action, soldiers do that.
>
>But they are not followers of Christ or his commandments.

Civil authority.

>>You refuse.

>Indubitably!!!
>For Christ has forbidden his 'true' followers to "Resist evil" and use
>violence and the sword on anyone, just as the castigated the diciples that
>used a sword, when they came to arrest him.
>"52 "Put away your sword," Jesus told him. "Those using swords will get
>killed".
>Matt 26:52 (TLB)

Massive error on your part.

>>Move to NKorea. I guarantee you'll feel comfortable there.
>
>I am quite comfortable here in Britain, thanks.

And to think so much American blood was shed protecting you as Christ called us
in WW1 and WW2.

>Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message news:
1st Century Apostolic

>"No Pet" wrote in message

>>>The early believers who were conscripted did,
>>
>>No they didn't:
>>For Christ had warned them. "Do not kill" "Do not commit murder"
>>
>
>>Killing and murder are two separate things,
>
>Christ and St. Paul covered both:
>"Keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt
>do no murder"
>Matt 19:17-18 (KJV)
>
>"8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth
>another
>hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, *Thou
>shalt not kill*"
>Romans 13:7-9 (KJV)
>
>And again in Revelation the dire warning not to kill anyone with a sword:
>
>"9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity
>shall go into captivity: *he that killeth with the sword* must be killed
>with the sword.
>Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
>Rev 13:8-10 (KJV)
>
>Their patience thus sustains them to wait for God to avenge His persecuted
>saints.
>
>Jeff...

>Keep your rose colored glasses on Jeff, but the Lord did not say to
>beat your plows into weapons of war for nothing.

Christ never stated that to his Disciples.

>He also did not say
>to buy swords for shiny jewelry.

Nor for harming or killing or murdering other human beings.
As he forbade the disciple to use the sword.
"one of them that were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his
sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear. 52
Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all

they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matt 26:51-52 (ASV)

It could not be made any plainer really
Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
with the sword.

Millions of faithless false Christians did in the past world wars, even
killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"

Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands to
harm or kill another human being?

Jeff...

[duke]

That was just to protect him. The cross was his destiny, and he could have
called on an army of angels if he wanted to.

>"one of them that were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his
>sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear. 52
>Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all
>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:51-52 (ASV)
>
>It could not be made any plainer really
>Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
>with the sword.
>
>Millions of faithless false Christians did in the past world wars, even
>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>
>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands to
>harm or kill another human being?
>
>Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news
"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>

>>>Keep your rose colored glasses on Jeff, but the Lord did not say to
>>>beat your plows into weapons of war for nothing.
>
>>Christ never stated that to his Disciples.
>
>>>He also did not say
>>>to buy swords for shiny jewelry.
>
>>Nor for harming or killing or murdering other human beings.
>>As he forbade the disciple to use the sword.

>That was just to protect him.

And for anyone else in the impending years prior to Christ's Return.

> The cross was his destiny,

Yes! and his brethren have to also bear their cross along with him as he has
stated.
Thus the wise hearken to his grave warning:
"Saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all

they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Matt 26:51-52 (ASV)

It could not be made any plainer.

Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
with the sword.

Also we read in John's Revelation:
"if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 13:10 (ASV)

Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even

[No Pet]

So if you were in an airport, and terrorist started shooting up the
place, killing people prior to pulling the trigger on q bomb, you
would just sit there and watch, even tho a pistol was laying on the
floor in front of you.

If so, then please put that sign around your neck as you travel about.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message

news:63rueb1qtmgg7vc38...@4ax.com...

He never stated anything about 'ploughs into weapons' you are confusing what
was prophesied regarding the future inhabitants of the nations and
Christ's forbidding of hate or harm to enemies and neighbours during their
probationary life of obedience to his commands and Apostolic instructions
for the "Few saved".

>Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into
>spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

>Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong
>nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
>and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword
>against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
>Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig
>tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of
>hosts hath spoken it.

>And this is the way it shall be for the following eon.

But not for the one we are living in now.

>You can argue until you blue in the face, but until you can recognize
>the validity of both statements,

I do recognise both of them, but you have sadly misunderstood them.
See above.

snip.

>You cannot discredit the word of God without calling Him a liar. Which
>is why I harp on seeing and understanding the truths of the matter,
>instead of picking a few verses out of which to construct a doctrine
>doomed to failure.

The only people 'doomed to failure' will be those who defy Christ and harm
and destroy their enemies and neighbours, and BRETHREN who killed each
other in the World Wars, instead of "Putting away the sword" as Christ
commanded, or suffering the dire penalty he has threatened for such
disobedient killers.

"52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all

they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

Matt 26:52 (KJV)

And in Revelation also:
"9 If any one has an ear, let him hear. 10 If any one [leads] into
captivity, he goes into captivity. If any one shall kill with [the] sword,
he must with [the] sword be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. "
Rev 13:8-10 (Darby)

We have been duly warned.

Jeff...
"38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth: 39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil".
Matt 5:38 (ASV)

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"No Pet" wrote in message news

"1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist"

>>It could not be made any plainer.
>>Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
>>with the sword.
>
>>Also we read in John's Revelation:
>>"if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed.
>>Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
>>Rev 13:10 (ASV)
>
>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>
>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>to
>>harm or kill another human being?
>
>>Jeff...
>

>So if you were in an airport, and terrorist started shooting up the
>place, killing people prior to pulling the trigger on q bomb, you
>would just sit there and watch, even tho a pistol was laying on the
>floor in front of you.

If they killed everyone in sight and then turned on me, I would ask pray for
strength to obey Christ and leave the weapon on the ground.
Remember Christ's own words of encouragement and dire warning?

"25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall
lose his life for my sake shall find it."
Matt 16:25-26 (ASV)

Obeying Christ then, means [eternal] life even when 'killed' by terrorists.

"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the
soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in
hell."
Matt 10:28 (ASV)

Jeff...

[No Pet]

At that point you would not stand a chance anyhow, but the point was
that it was in your power to stop all the other deaths by picking up
the pistol and shooting the perp's. And that if you do not try to save
the lives of others that you should wear a sign saying, Don't count on
me.

>"25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall
>lose his life for my sake shall find it."
>Matt 16:25-26 (ASV)
>

You just misappropriated that verse. It was speaking about making
Christ first in your life, not you.

>Obeying Christ then, means [eternal] life even when 'killed' by terrorists.
>
>"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the
>soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in
>hell."
>Matt 10:28 (ASV)
>

Another misappropriated verse, it is speaking of fearing God.
You might as well apologize to your family now for being unwilling to
spare their lives by killing the evil ones.

Jesus said to beat your plowshares into weapons, and not just for
looking fearsome, but to defend and save lives or both yourself and
others.

Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks
into spears; let the weak say, I am strong

This speaking about today's time

Then when the Lord returns to rule the world it says this,...

Mic 4:3 And He shall judge between many peoples and shall decide for
strong nations afar off, and they shall beat their swords into
plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift
up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Only then will your pipe dream become a reality. Until then you are a
fish out of water.

[No Pet]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:27:08 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic

That is the point of Gods word, for now we are at the time to beat
ours plows into weapons of war. Joel 3:10

>>You can argue until you blue in the face, but until you can recognize
>>the validity of both statements,
>
>I do recognise both of them, but you have sadly misunderstood them.
>See above.
>

No you don't. Look at the prophesies now coming to fruition, nation
against nation, wars and rumors of wars, all over the world. Now there
is no peace, destruction can come at any time, at any place, at the
next concert you go to, or the amusement park.

>snip.
>>You cannot discredit the word of God without calling Him a liar. Which
>>is why I harp on seeing and understanding the truths of the matter,
>>instead of picking a few verses out of which to construct a doctrine
>>doomed to failure.
>
>The only people 'doomed to failure' will be those who defy Christ and harm
>and destroy their enemies and neighbours, and BRETHREN who killed each
>other in the World Wars, instead of "Putting away the sword" as Christ
>commanded, or suffering the dire penalty he has threatened for such
>disobedient killers.
>

Christ said now is the time to purchase swords, as he was making ready
to leave. Are you neglecting that truth purposely in order to
construct your so-called peace doctrine?

>"52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all
>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:52 (KJV)
>

Those that "take the sword" means to live by the sword. IOW's as their
means for survival, like by crime or a lifestyle of violence. More men
come back from war then die in a way.

And why is it that when Christ returns that the weapons of war are
then beat back into farming implements?

>And in Revelation also:
>"9 If any one has an ear, let him hear. 10 If any one [leads] into
>captivity, he goes into captivity. If any one shall kill with [the] sword,
>he must with [the] sword be killed.
>Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints. "
>Rev 13:8-10 (Darby)
>
>We have been duly warned.
>

However, those verses are specifically for those who were left behind
when Christ took the Church out of this world. Those verses are for
those in the first forty months of the tribulation and not for this
time. They were under the power and authority of the beast.
Rev 13:7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people
(the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend
his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,
Rev 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in
adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been
recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice]
from the foundation of the world.

So again you are taking words out of context in order to construct a
false doctrine.

>Jeff...
>"38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
>tooth: 39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil".
>Matt 5:38 (ASV)

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest
in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably
with all men.

How can you trust God for peace when you cannot trust God for your
healing?

[duke]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 21:49:05 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"duke" wrote in message news
>"1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>"No Pet" wrote in message news:
>>
>>>>Keep your rose colored glasses on Jeff, but the Lord did not say to
>>>>beat your plows into weapons of war for nothing.
>>
>>>Christ never stated that to his Disciples.
>>
>>>>He also did not say
>>>>to buy swords for shiny jewelry.
>>
>>>Nor for harming or killing or murdering other human beings.
>>>As he forbade the disciple to use the sword.
>
>>That was just to protect him.
>
>And for anyone else in the impending years prior to Christ's Return.
>
>> The cross was his destiny,
>
>Yes! and his brethren have to also bear their cross along with him as he has
>stated.
>Thus the wise hearken to his grave warning:
>"Saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all
>they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
>Matt 26:51-52 (ASV)

No, you're failing to understand that Jesus was on his final mission. Jesus
died on the cross out of obedience to his Father.

>It could not be made any plainer.
>Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
>with the sword.

>Also we read in John's Revelation:
>"if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed.
>Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
>Rev 13:10 (ASV)

But Jesus was not to be protected. As he said, he could call down an army of
angels is desired.

>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>
>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands to
>harm or kill another human being?

You pagans won't even protect your own wife and children.

[duke]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:46:46 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>"No Pet" wrote in message news
>"1st Century Apostolic
>Traditionalist"
>>>It could not be made any plainer.
>>>Christ is stating if you use the sword for hurting others you will perish
>>>with the sword.
>>
>>>Also we read in John's Revelation:
>>>"if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed.
>>>Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
>>>Rev 13:10 (ASV)
>>
>>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>>
>>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>>to
>>>harm or kill another human being?
>>
>>>Jeff...
>>
>
>>So if you were in an airport, and terrorist started shooting up the
>>place, killing people prior to pulling the trigger on q bomb, you
>>would just sit there and watch, even tho a pistol was laying on the
>>floor in front of you.
>
>If they killed everyone in sight and then turned on me,

You were already the hatred of all for failing to defend your loved ones. You
deserve to die.

I would ask pray for
>strength to obey Christ and leave the weapon on the ground.
>Remember Christ's own words of encouragement and dire warning?
>
>"25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall
>lose his life for my sake shall find it."
>Matt 16:25-26 (ASV)
>
>Obeying Christ then, means [eternal] life even when 'killed' by terrorists.
>
>"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the
>soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in
>hell."
>Matt 10:28 (ASV)
>
>Jeff...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>If so, then please put that sign around your neck as you travel about.

[No Pet]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 07:41:37 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

>the dukester, American-American
The most dramatic and explicit condemnation of forbidden clergy sexual
activity was the Book of Gomorrah of St. Peter Damian, completed in
1051. The author had been a Benedictine monk and was appointed
archbishop and later cardinal by the reigning pope.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

snipped for brevity.

>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>
>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>to
>>harm or kill another human being?

>You pagans

Pagans will.

>won't even protect your own wife and children.

But Christians are to obey Christ even at the cost or loss of wives,
children and lands, even our very lives.

"26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life
also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross,
and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26-27 (ASV)

Jeff...

[duke]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:14:43 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>"duke" wrote in message
>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>snipped for brevity.
>>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>>
>>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>>to
>>>harm or kill another human being?
>
>>You pagans
>
>Pagans will.
>>won't even protect your own wife and children.

>But Christians are to obey Christ even at the cost or loss of wives,
>children and lands, even our very lives.

Then you are no man. Should you then slash your own wrists for the help you and
your loved ones received from soldiers or police?

>"26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother,
>and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life
>also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross,
>and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
>Luke 14:26-27 (ASV)
>
>Jeff...
>

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:37hnfb1vc2e94h3fl...@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:14:43 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>"duke" wrote in message
>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>snipped for brevity.
>>>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>>
>>>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>>>to harm or kill another human being?
>
>>You pagans
>>
>>Pagans will.
>>>won't even protect your own wife and children.

>>But Christians are to obey Christ even at the cost or loss of wives,
>>children and lands, even our very lives.

>Then you are no man. Should you then slash your own wrists for the help
>you and
>your loved ones received from soldiers or police?

God has put the police there to instil order and keep evil from entirely
overwhelming the populations of the nations, and for the general protection
of His saints, but brethren of Christ are to have no part in such secular
affairs as they are forbidden to use violence and harm to other humans.

"4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;"
2 Tim 2:3-4 (KJV)

Jeff...

[duke]

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:19:00 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"duke" wrote in message news:37hnfb1vc2e94h3fl...@4ax.com...
>
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:14:43 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhic...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"duke" wrote in message
>>1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>>snipped for brevity.
>>>>>Millions of faithless false Christians died in the past world wars, even
>>>>>killing their brethren, whom they were commanded to love, not kill.
>>>>>"love your enemies" "Do good to those who hate you"
>>>
>>>>>Thus it is impossible for any faithful Christian obeying these commands
>>>>>to harm or kill another human being?
>>
>>>You pagans
>>>
>>>Pagans will.
>>>>won't even protect your own wife and children.
>
>>>But Christians are to obey Christ even at the cost or loss of wives,
>>>children and lands, even our very lives.
>
>>Then you are no man. Should you then slash your own wrists for the help
>>you and
>>your loved ones received from soldiers or police?
>
>God has put the police there to instil order and keep evil from entirely
>overwhelming the populations of the nations, and for the general protection
>of His saints, but brethren of Christ are to have no part in such secular
>affairs as they are forbidden to use violence and harm to other humans.

They you are a low life coward for not wishing to protect your wife and
children.

>"4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;"
>2 Tim 2:3-4 (KJV)
>
>Jeff...
>"26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother,
>and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life
>also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross,
>and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
>Luke 14:26-27 (ASV)
>

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:bsosfbha89uld6atq...@4ax.com...

To you, but not to one trusting in God and his promise never to tempt his
children greater then they can bear.
"13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is
faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but
will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to
endure"
1 Cor 10:13 (ASV)

Jeff...

[duke]

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016 22:29:02 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

Then why do they fail? The desire to satisfy self is greater than the strength
of the grace of God to stop you in good judgment. It's absolutely certain that
man fails the test unless he uses his stronger God-given good judgment to stop.
For instance, the unfaithful minister having an affair chooses the greater evil,
that of self gratification.

>"13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is
>faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but
>will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to
>endure"
>1 Cor 10:13 (ASV)
>
>Jeff...
>"4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;"
>2 Tim 2:3-4 (KJV)
>

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"duke" wrote in message news:bcevfbdkj57tgssr7...@4ax.com...

------------------------

>>To you, but not to one trusting in God and his promise never to tempt his
>>children greater then they can bear.

>"13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is
>faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but
>will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able
>to
>endure"
>1 Cor 10:13 (ASV)

>Then why do they fail?

Because the cry of war and possibility of being conquered by another nation
stupefies unfaithful 'christians' to put aside Christ's implicit command to
love enemies and not to kill them.

> The desire to satisfy self is greater than the strength
>of the grace of God to stop you in good judgment.

The desire of self-preservation instinctively of both self and family
brushes aside the Lord's commands for loving and not harming enemies, etc,
just as you and Pete have attempted in your posts.

> It's absolutely certain that
>man fails the test unless he uses his stronger God-given good judgment to
>stop.

Indeed, it is very hard to stand firm and be a 'conscientious objector
'when your country is at war with enemies.

>For instance, the unfaithful minister having an affair chooses the greater
>evil,
>that of self gratification.

Absolutely!
Just as those who ignore Christ's command not to "Put asunder" each other in
marriage and then commit blatant adultery by remarrying another.

[duke]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016 08:29:25 +0100, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

Titus 3:1-3New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Godly Living
3 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be
ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing
every consideration for all men.

You fail.

>> The desire to satisfy self is greater than the strength
>>of the grace of God to stop you in good judgment.

>The desire of self-preservation instinctively of both self and family
>brushes aside the Lord's commands for loving and not harming enemies, etc,
>just as you and Pete have attempted in your posts.

Above is clearly what the Lord commanded.

>> It's absolutely certain that
>>man fails the test unless he uses his stronger God-given good judgment to
>>stop.

>Indeed, it is very hard to stand firm and be a 'conscientious objector
>'when your country is at war with enemies.

You are also a fool for disregarding God's call to us to love our neighbor as
ourselves, and if you don't protect family and neighbor, you're a failure as a
Christian.

>>For instance, the unfaithful minister having an affair chooses the greater
>>evil,
>>that of self gratification.
>
>Absolutely!
>Just as those who ignore Christ's command not to "Put asunder" each other in
>marriage and then commit blatant adultery by remarrying another.
>
>Jeff...
>"4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;"
>2 Tim 2:3-4 (KJV)
>