How does one hire a bio lab technician for consulting?

[Frank]

As you know I am attempting to produce an sample of viable fat stem cells suitable for personal medical use, on my own, and on a budget. At this point I think I understand the salient biological and medical issues but I am lacking hands on laboratory know-how. 

I looked into utilizing a community biospace but they are nonexistent close by or not interested in what I'm doing. Renting space in a biolab is too expensive.

So I was thinking that a way to accomplish this might be to hire as a consultant an experienced lab technician who has done all of the parts of what I'm attempting to do.  

they would evaluate the protocol I'm gonna follow , tell me what to expect and about pitfalls, make sure i know all needed materials and equipment, and walk me through it. They could also tell me were I can use cheaper equipment alternatives .

So my question to this group: are biolab tech folks hired for this sort of thing? Does someone doing stem cell culturing at a biotech company ever moonlight to make extra money? If so is there a preferred source for such a consultant like a forum or classified?

[Dakota Hamill]

I think you have an interesting project idea from your previous posts
and literature research, but it seems like you'll run into a number of
issues. I hesitate to ask the "why" of why you want to re-inject
adipocyte stem-cells back into yourself because usually people that
want to do something like this have reasons no one else can talk them
out of.

Not judging though, because I have some serious pathological body
dysmorphia issues from a rare endocrine disorder, and I'm on
endocrinologist supervised treatment, but it never feels like enough.
I assume this is what it feels like to be anorexic or obsessed with
plastic surgery. People see things about themselves no one else does.

If you're dead set on it, you're probably going to have to do it
yourself. That's going to make it difficult and expensive, and
dangerous. You could die from an infection or immune response. I
assume everyone has a "right" to self-treat themselves, but to what
extent another may be liable for manslaughter if it goes awry, I have
no idea.

What's your end measurable of it "working"? Never aging? No
wrinkles? No cellulite? You're going to inject it all over your entire
body that's covered with fat tissue?

Skip the headache/lawsuit/hospital bill of doing it yourself if you're
dead-set on it and talk to
https://www.bostonstemcell.com/stem-cell-therapy/fat-graft/ at least
you can sue a doctor if it goes awry. $900-$6,000 and only one google
away!

Good luck hope you find what you're looking for.

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[Frank]

thanks for the message and for being concerned. I am familiar with body
dysmorphia more as an observer than a suffer. waaaaay back when I was
young I did my stint with body building and steroids. I'm lucky that it
did not turn into an addiction for me. I have friends who did not fare
so well. One of them , a radiologist with whom I attended medical school
died at the age of 31 from a massive heart attack resulting from
cardiomegaly.
Today I am the poster child for just about every damn age-related
degenerative condition, I had three artificial intervertebral disks in
my neck (before they were approved) due too herniated disks. The veins
in my legs are basically useless forcing me to wear compression socks
always. I got Halux Valgus (bunions) in both feet almost overnight, and
while i have no cavities, I do have chronic aggressive periodontal
disease with bone loss. There's more but i'll hold off. two of my
conditions have been shown to respond and even resolve with stem cell
therapy. With periodontitis, stem cell injections right on the receding
edge of the bone in a matrix that keeps them there for a little while
significantly stimulates not just bone but all the lost tissues to grow.
That treatment is actually in practice but it costs a fortune and I'm
about to loose 4 teeth if i don't act soon,.
the other which i have mentioned is more of a problem with even less of
a solution but in which stem cells have shown remarkable efficacy..
Believe me i have no thing about wanting to inject stem cells for
vanity. I would love to not have to go through all this trouble, So no
danger of me doing this just for th hell of it.

To your other point, I am absolutely into anti aging but in a true way,
not just superficially. If i had the money i would have a protocol for
myself that attacks some of the key drives and pay people to force me
to do things like intermittent fasting, being in bed by midnight, and
exercising consistently. that right there is has more impact than just
about any single drug. Then I'd buy myself a plasmapheresis machine, and
get my hands on 4 or 5 of the molecules in this list:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c79BsB8ooKkefmKLNRwTj9F1grkyrEN0_vwwuR3gFmA/edit?usp=sharing

so my metric for "youthfulness" would not be things like wrinkles but
rather LDL/HDL ratio, GFR, C-reactive protein, HBAC, blood pressure,
physical strength, cognitive performance, etc.

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[Tom De Medts]

@ Dakota - Is your testosterone cypionate a prescription intra-muscular injection? And is it possible to procure this without a prescription?

I have stubborn abdominal visceral fat that just will not go away to the point that exercising with that objective has led to multiple ligaments tears of the knees,

at least 3 vertebral disc wear requiring future surgery, bad low-back with very limited flexibility, displacement of cervical vertebrae etc.

I've heard that testosterone injections generally help with healing better and faster, is this true?

Also, my testosterone levels were normal in my recent blood test, but I wonder whether its levels vary just as levels of most female hormones cycle up and down? Perhaps my androgen levels

seem OK in a snapshot, but not if followed as a time course?  Like some days, in the morning especially, my voice will be deeper. And other times, my  voice will sound less deep, a little more squeaky. As a non-medical biologist, I would not venture to hypothesize if these are all related or not.  So I'm just thinking aloud and throwing out these observations.

Any suggestions / advice is welcome... 

@ Frank and Dakota, this is not at all an effort to hijack your discussion. Sorry if this is going off on a slight tangent, happy to start a new thread if you wish...

Thank you, in advance.

Cheers,

TdM

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 1:09 PM Dakota Hamill <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like you have a solid reason.  Apologies for projecting the
notion of vanity on your decisions.   Outside of anti-aging clinics or
treating rare diseases I'm not sure who offers treatments like this
with stem cells.  How you separate who is legit from a quack, no idea
either.  I'm not even sure what FDA approved stem cell treatments
there are.

I can see the allure of anabolic steroids, I'm just on testosterone
cypionate now and it's reversed all sorts of problems I've had my
entire life overnight.

Steroids wouldn't help with your bone loss and teeth problems?
They're designed to help fight osteoporosis.

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[Tom De Medts]

Hi Dakota,

Thanks for sharing your experience and insights, I will look into this more carefully now - your email has given me that impetus.

Cheers,

Tom

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:46 PM Dakota Hamill <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:

Prescription IM from endo.  Tons of men's health clinics these days
will sell it for anywhere between $100-$200 a month...sometimes less.
 T levels are age dependent but docs follow the rules of lab ranges,
which are not age dependent.  Depending on your testing location you'd
generally need less than 300ng/dL to be considered, with symptoms, for
insurance to cover it.

What I can say is just getting normal T levels from injections gave me
a new life   - joint pain gone overnight, abdominal fat disappearing,
lipids fixed, insulin resistance fixed, blood sugar fixed, TSH
normalized, unknown bone pain and back pain gone, beard, list goes on.
It was legit night and day.   My life didn't start until TRT last
year, but I'm no doubt emotionally retarded from lacking normal T
levels during developmental years.

Hormones are powerful, and amazing, for many reasons, especially
regenerative medicine.  It's a shame our sex hormone will put you in
federal prison to have, though, and a woman can buy hers OTC at CVS.

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[Frank]

As you get older you produce less testosterone which coincides with an increase in visceral fat , the fat stored in the greater omentum under your abdominal muscles . That's because testosterone drives calories to be stored as subcutaneous rather than visceral fat it's one factor. So when you lose testosterone fat production shifts from subcutaneous to visceral. another hormone that drops precipitously when we get older that also has a big impact on belly fat is growth hormone. 

 testosterone replacement therapy the house can improve belly fat not just by increasing physical activity and muscle mass but more directly at a lipid metabolism level.

taking testosterone later in life is a double edged sword it can be beneficial but it can also be detrimental. The key is that you do actual replacement dosing and not more. For that you really need to know what your testosterone levels are currently and if you happen to have had a testosterone test earlier in life that is good to compare because what you want to do is take a dose that elevates your testosterone to a previous level that you actually produced . if you have a choice of testosterone derivatives, , the nandrolone's have some advantages over things like cypionate and enanthate . I would take a look at the anabolic to androgenic effect ratio which is different for each derivative.

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[Frank]

To better answer the question that you actually asked, yes the testosterone that I've taken has always been intramuscular and by prescription although I have definitely taken my shot at getting testosterone without a prescription. I would not recommend it. 

there is a way to discover what doctors in your area are likely to prescribe testosterone to you . The Medicare payment database is made available through an organization called propublica . heres a link to the resource with testosterone selected. https://projects.propublica.org/checkup/drugs/8883 just sort results by state and look up your state and you'll see the top testosterone prescribing doctors.  

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[Frank]

Btw in my experience CVS is the worst about filling testosterone prescriptions . They will take a 10 mL prescription and tell you that they have to give it to u in 1cc allotments because it's a controlled substance . they also charge more than any other pharmacy for that and everything else. You might want to consider getting a prescription but not using insurance to pay for it because it's really not that expensive especially if you use a coupon from good RX and then they cannot do anything but give you the full prescription since you are paying 

On January 14, 2021 6:44:01 PM Dakota Hamill <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd talk for days about hormones. That website is awesome, thanks

Frank.  I ended up finding a urologist via CVS who runs a men's clinic

on the side but I can't seem to get him to take over my insurance

covered TRT because...I can't even get an appointment with him.  It's

super frustrating being on TRT after  4 endos, and the one who finally

agreed to treat me doesn't believe in AI's or hCG.

I'm a keep this thread rolling with the hijack if that's ok Frank lol.

I don't know why there isn't a crowd-sourced diagnostic platform to

help people (not give medical advice) but give "ideas" about what to

test or what may be a root cause.

https://imgur.com/a/FpWVqUe

That was my development on TRT.  I basically went from 0 facial hair

and body hair my entire life to a beard in 10 months, I consider that

I'm finishing puberty at 33.  Psychologically it's fucked me.  Science

the only thing that kept me alive.

I was diagnosed with normosmic idiopathic hypogonadotropic

hypogonadism but I don't think that's the case.  I agree with

hypogonadism without a known cause...but I don't think it's Kallmann

syndrome at all.  I KNOW there is something wrong with my sympathetic

nervous system because I've been in fight-or-flight mode since 5 years

old, and nothing horrific happened.

I've been pouring sweat since 5/6 years old after a Chicken Pox

infection.  My hands are dripping liquid as I write this...and there's

no reason for that.

Always had thermal dysregulation, always felt hot, feet and hands cold

sweat.  Went from skinny as a rail as a track athlete to obese (with

that visceral fat), insulin resistant, metabolic syndrome,

dyslipidemia, heart issues, dermatographia, spider veins everywhere,

massive stretch marks.

I've just felt like I have been high on adrenaline/cortisol my entire

life, and never able to relax, and it took a toll.  But...my cortisol

always comes back normal, as did my catecholamines.

Sympathetic nervous system will shut down GI movement, and I also had

horrible GI bleeding and constipation, with joint aches (first

testosterone was 171ng/dL with a 7 total estradiol, both below range

and bottom of range).

TRT my GI bleeding went away within 48 hours after 5 years of bleeding

(never did a colonoscopy), joint pain went away (finally had

estrogen), lipids normalized, insulin normalized, blood sugar

normalized.

Only thing is I still have hyperhidrosis for no reason, and I feel

anxious all the time and had a few bouts of mania/psychosis on TRT.

Idk if my thyroid is fucked or my adrenals are fucked or I have a

tumor somewhere since 5 years old or what.

Well maybe someone smarter than me in this can help.  I've just felt

tired...forever.

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[Tom De Medts]

Super useful insights, thanks again, Dakota and Frank.

Cheers,

Tom

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:50 PM Dakota Hamill <dko...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah not many Wallmarts and Costco's around here with the 10cc but I
never tried.  Endo doing it electronic for probably this reason.  I
have no interest in utilizing more than I'm prescribed right now, it's
just that, this dose still hasn't relieved all issues.  I think
estradiol is the big issue at this point.  I guess continually
dropping adipose tissue is all I can do.  I want something more
androgenic though.

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[Tom De Medts]

Hey Dakota and Frank et al.,

I got back my testosterone test results and it reads:

LOINC Code 2986-8

Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone

Result 341 

Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL 

Abnormal Flag normal

Date Performed 3/26/2021

I am assuming with these results: 

• I do not need testosterone supplementation, and by extension
  
• I could not request / demand my PCP to fill a testosterone prescription to bump up levels, or do I?
  

LOINC Code 2986-8 

Test Testosterone, Total-Testosterone

Result 343 

Reference Range 264-916 ng/dL 

Abnormal Flag normal

Date Performed 3/25/2021

From my online searches, it appears there is no hard and fast rule about serum levels below which  supplementation may be allowed in the current US medical insurance / health care set-up. Guidelines vary from 300 -350 ng/dL as the low threshold. 

PatientFirst's 2986-8  test code goes even lower at 264 ng/dL! Not sure why...

I started to wonder whether this level changes across different racial / ethnic human male sub-populations. I then came across this paper - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327897/ - which shows how there is a difference in T between black and white male sub-populations.

So I wonder whether 264 is beyond or within range for my specific genetics!

My online search results that I scanned quickly:

https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20181005/should-men-with-symptoms-of-low-testosterone-but-without-hypogonadism-be-prescribed-testosterone-t

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/

https://www.ifm.org/news-insights/testosterone-supplement/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255853/

https://www.auanet.org/guidelines/testosterone-deficiency-guideline

Thanks!

I wish you all a fun Friday and a nice weekend.

Cheers,

Tom

[Frank]

Actually that number may be low enough depending on which standards they use to get at least a prescription if not the insurance to pay for testosterone. However unless you are feeling undesirable symptoms that you're sure have to do with your testosterone level you may want to reconsider it . I just finished reading a new study on how aging is accelerated by testosterone 

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[Dakota Hamill]

Total testosterone isn't as useful without a free testosterone reading
in conjunction with Sex Hormone Binding Globulin. There's no set
number for beginning treatment. TRT clinics will give anyone with
cash testosterone injections. For insurance to cover it they
generally require 2 levels below the lower reference range. That
reference range isn't age adjusted though. A good doctor would I hope
take into consideration symptoms and phenotypic presentation when
considering treating a potentially hypogonadal male with levels
border-line low but still within reference range.

I'm sure most PCP's might consider giving a 50 year old male who
complains of all the common low T symptoms but still has numbers in
the 300's, but highly doubtful they'd do the same for a 20 year old.
There's articles that state 400ng/dL is the threshold for which
hypogonadal symptoms can appear.

Hormones are a complex puzzle, and unless some lab work is blatantly
out of range, most doctors won't touch testosterone therapy with a
10ft pole.

@Tom there's plenty to be done to naturally boost testosterone. Some
good articles out there of men who have done strict diet/exercise for
90 days and re-tested and boosted up into the 600's-700's. So much
to consider these days; stress/lifestyle, exercise, alcohol, endocrine
disruptors, tons of stuff is causing decline in average testosterone
levels. I have no idea what your age is, but you can find some
age-adjusted testosterone levels, of course with widely different
high/low/mean values. The Bell curve will always be there, but being
lower than the Bell curve will lead to an unhappy and unhealthy life,
at least from personal experience.

There are some very good forums out there with some pretty smart
people on them. Majority of people on those forums just want to feel
young again, small percentage are truly hypogonadal for various
reasons. Actually some good science to be found on there from time to
time.

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[Frank]

but i hope you realize the whole "low testosterone" thing is a construct
by the pharma companies. we are supposed to have very reduced
testosterone as we age just like we have reduced growth hormone, etc.
So it's OK to have testosterone levels in the 200's. It's an arbitrary
line that pharma has drawn and called it "Low T" to drum up sales of a
cheap drug with a huge mark up. Another thing to realize is that the
same testosterone after 50 may do much less due to down regulated
receptors. About 10 years ago when I was around 40 I thought I'd give
taking testosterone another try. I felt no effect and increased the dose
to around 300 mg / week. still no perceptible effect. no visible muscle
gain. no increased libido. I had my testosterone tested during that
time. it was 1500 ng/dL! A subsequent test came in at 900. So I think
we become less sensitive to it as we get older. In terms of health, it's
a double edged sword.

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[Frank]

one more thing to keep in mind about any diagnostic test results,
reference range DOES NOT EQUAL normal range or healthy range. it is the
range of results for the people the lab has tested. if the lab is used
by all the athletes in town the range will be skewed up. you must always
ignore the lab company's range and look up the official normal range and
then the optimal/healthy range which is also different.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Dakota Hamill" <dko...@gmail.com>
To: "diy...@googlegroups.com" <diy...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: 3/26/2021 5:43:04 PM
Subject: Re: [DIYbio] Continuing the Testosterone discussion

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[Tom De Medts]

Hi Frank and Dakota,

Thank you so much for the super useful information. I truly appreciate it.

In addition to lack of age adjustment clinical decision making, that you pointed out,

there appears to be a race / ethnicity based difference as well, in observed T levels.

For examples, see these papers:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2016.00001/full

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26863244/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327897/

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/91/11/4326/2656429

There appears to be an environmental factor as well

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180625122437.htm

So it's way more complicated than what I had imagined T treatment protocols would be.

In terms of side effects, T treatment can cause gonad shrinkage, prostate enlargement, increased risk of prostate cancer, etc.,

and which may need to be compensated with additional treatment with hCG. 

So medical intervention seems messy and I feel changing my lifestyle to boost 

natural production of T, though more challenging than receiving a few injections, should be much safer and healthier. I am 45yrs old, BTW.

If I can make some healthier choices and lifestyle changes, it needs to be NOW (or never!).

Wish me good luck :)

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Tom

Learn more at www.diybio.org

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[Frank]

oh yeah thanks for pointing out one of the most important danger of exogenous testosterone which is prostate cancer

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[Frank]

in this discussion about testosterone did we mention how to properly test one's testosterone?  If not, let's start with the fact that testosterone levels fluctuate throughout the day - diurnal variation -  with peak levels seen in the morning.  Testing is supposed to be done close to 11 am. 

Second,  test production is dynamic and can  be measurably affected by various factors such as nutrition, alcohol, smoking, sleep, exercise, and sex. So it's important to get tested under typical condition when one of these factors isn't overtly present. 

Third, total serum testosterone does not equal usable testosterone which is why this test by itself may not be the most meaningful. Total serum testosterone consists of a) free testosterone (2%–3%), b) testosterone bound to a carrier molecule called sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) (45%), and c) testosterone bound to albumin (−50%). Testosterone bound to SHBG is not available and might as well not be there. Testosterone bound to albumin is available, and together with free testosterone is termed bioavailable testosterone. The most precise type of testosterone testing is usually not offered due to expense. But at least  bioavailable test,  shbg testosterone, and free testosterone are tests that anyone can get by asking.  I would ask for these.

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[Dakota Hamill]

What I've always been interested in from a "DIYBio/Chemistry"
standpoint is a compound that would increase testosterone production
endogenously. I've been reading for a few years now in regards to
this and have had conversations with the MD that tried to bring
Enclomiphene (Androxal) to market a few years ago. Sadly they failed
Phase 3 trials not because the data looked poor, but because they
chose the wrong end-point criteria. They appeared to not track
improvement of symptoms associated with secondary hypogonadism, and
instead focused on the preservation of spermatogenesis with concurrent
increases in total testosterone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene has been used for decades as
a fertility drug and off-label by many endos to treat low testosterone
in men. It targets the estrogen receptor that controls negative
feedback on the pituitary for the production of gonadotropins (LH and
FSH) and subsequent increase in testosterone in the testes by
Luteinizing Hormone.

One can take Clomid for a boost in testosterone, but a majority of men
don't report feeling great on it because of the estrogenic side
effects. Some do however. I think endo's over-prescribe and go with
50mg every other day wherein 12.5mg every other day would give a boost
of testosterone without E2 side effects.

Drop the agonistic enantiomer (zuclomiphene) and stick with the
antagonist (enclomiphene) and you'd get a nice easy pill to take that
boosted testosterone endogenously, preserved spermatogenesis, and
potentially made hypogonadal men feel better without the need for
gels/injections for life.

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[Frank]

Testosterone levels in the body are regulated via negative feedback loop such that testosterone itself inhibits leidig( probably misspelled) cells in the testicles from producing testosterone. So one of the first things that will happen when you either give yourself exogenous testosterone or take something if you can find it that truly increases production is a decrease endogenous production . This accounts for the shrinkage and testicle size during a testosterone cycle . 

and your own production will shut down to zero as long as the level of testosterone in your blood is higher then your natural setpoint . so there's that to figure out. 

I too look high and low for the thing that would increase my testosterone but failed. I haven't looked in this area in a while but last time I looked it was all about selective androgen receptor modulators SARMs. these molecules do not act like testosterone but rather interact with the testosterone receptor to increase ligand binding or other mechanism such that the testosterone you do have seems to have a greater effect so you end up having more of a testosterone effect with the same amount of testosterone . I believe though I may not remember this correctly, the increased effect is only the anabolic and not the androgenic effects of testosterone. This of course is a huge advantage over testosterone itself because it avoids most of the androgenic effects.

.one drug that I recall was developed and they sought FDA approval in what seems to me like the hardest possible way, by proposing it as a drug to combat cachexia in lung cancer . It does not reach its endpoint in phase 3 trials and was not proceed further. however by then many a bodybuilder had gotten their hands on it as a laboratory chemical from one of the many's chemical supply companies and there were lots of testimonials online and even meticulous instructions on how to use it because they'll claimed it works for muscle gain though it may not be fully effective in the worst possible case of muscle wasting which is cachexia with lung cancer.

 I believe it was called ostarine. you now see over-the-counter nutritional supplements claiming to have this as an ingredient but do not be fooled. I am sure there are newer ones maybe even one that has been approved . 

Finally, testosterone is not the only anabolic hormone . Of course, you have a growth hormone which I don't recommend Because I have done battle with the insurance companies to have growth hormone paid for. And it was an epic battle. 

Categories included myostatin inhibitors, Anabolic Catabolic transforming agents and Proteasome Inhibitors, and more. Myostatin is an enzyme that we produce which breaks down muscle. the balance between this and muscle synthesis tips negatively as you get older and you get sarcopenia which is a fancy name for age related muscle wasting. there is one potent inhibitor of this which you have to take by injection is completely not FDA approved. again do not believe anything that tells you that it is a myostatin inhibitor as a supplement.

nothing that I know of increases to salsa production like resistance exercise especially if you do it in the morning . If you smoke cigarettes , smoking cessation is probably the most potent thing you can do. 

 

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