DIYbio in Heidelberg, Germany

[ukitel]

Hi,

Actually I have an academic background and a PhD in biology, but I am a great supporter of the DIYbio philosophy.
I believe biotechnology should be available to everyone and I think that DIYbio can also do a lot to improve the actual system in academy that is driven by novelty at all costs, funding wars and publish-or-perish. I think these things are causing scientists to lose more and more from their view two important aspects about science: doing it for the love of knowledge and doing it for the people, and DIYbio can help to bring this back.

I am looking for other DIYbio enthusiasts in the Heidelberg area. I am not aware of any DIYbio community here, and in this case I would seriously consider the idea to found one. Heidelberg is a great place for it, there are many biology research institution and this attracts lots of students interested in biotechnology. There are many scientific-related events such as science slams. Morevoer, there is also a very successful iGEM team.

If anyone is interested in this, please don't hesitate to contact me.

[jonny aba]

Hallo,

leider habe ich keinen anderen Weg gefunden Dich zu kontaktieren. Ich hoffe es so weit in Ordnung, dass ich in deutscher Sprache antworte, ansonsten kann ich auch ins Englische wechseln. 

Ich habe mich in den letzten Wochen intensiv mit Genetik beschäftigt und konnte einiges an Grundkenntnissen ansammeln. Nun möchte ich mich auch im praktischen Bereich versuchen. Leider bin ich in einen vollkommen anderen Berufszweig tätig und habe keinen Zugriff auf ein Labor oder anderweitige Ausstattung. Welche Möglichkeiten gibt es in meiner Situation, mich hiermit vertraut zu machen? Ist es Sinnvoll mir ein Starter-Kit ( http://www.the-odin.com/molecular-biology-lab-starter-kit/) zuzulegen ? Mit welchen praktischen Themengebiet kann ich einstiegen um erstmals reinzuschnuppern ?

Leider fühle ich mich derzeit noch recht alleine mit meinem neuen Hobby, im Web finde ich überraschend wenig Informationen. Gibt es weitere Seiten wo ich mich austauschen kann ?

Solltest Du die ein oder andere Frage beantworten können wäre ich Dir sehr dankbar. 

Grüße Jonas

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Hi Jonas,

German is fine, I understand it, but do you mind if I write in english?

As you know, I am a biologist, but I would also like to do some DIYbio. I started to have a look on what is legally possible here and it is a bit difficult to understand how the law works.

The thing is that a kit like the one you linked would be great to start off, it contains almost everything you need, but from what I've read, it seems that in Germany it would be illegal: producing even a GFP-bacterium would classify as genetic engineering and fall under the Gentechnikgesezt, which says you need an S1 laboratory to do that.

So, unfortunately, I think the only way to go here in Germany is through a community lab like Biotinkerin in Berlin.
I tried to get in contact with them to get some Information about it, but I wasn't successful.
Right now I am looking for hacker/maker spaces in Heidelberg area, maybe there is some space interested in exploring biology.
Are you living around Heidelberg area?

I understand that it feels very lonely, I also got the impression that there isn't too much communication among DIYbio. I actually have all the train and the experience needed to do it and the willingness to teach to others, but one also has to stick to the legal part.

Best,

Marco

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/12335ecd-c914-412c-b291-e6f7a83fc3d9%40googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

I am very glad to inform you that just recently, it has been decided in Germany that GFP in E. coli counts as beeing cisgenic - after decades of use, even Germany (but not Austria) aknowledges it is safe.

That is only true for contained use and if you autoclave everything afterwards. If you release it, you could potentially face harsh punishments (the laws have been made to hurt large Megacorporations, so expect giganteous fees for violating GM laws).

Also, ANYTHING else than GFP, like e.g. lux, is still prohibited.

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

Funny fact - in EU directive 2001/18/EC concerning deliverate release of GMOs, cisgenesis is not defined. In 2009/18/EC regarding contained use, it is.

So one time the same organism is a GMO and thus dangerous, in other circumstances it is not.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Having two ambiguous laws just makes everything more complicated...
The only way to go is indeed then a S1 lab, which is not too difficult, but it sets the initial investment quite high

On 11 April 2016 at 16:16, Mega [Andreas Stuermer] <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:

Funny fact - in EU directive 2001/18/EC concerning deliverate release of GMOs, cisgenesis is not defined. In 2009/18/EC regarding contained use, it is.

So one time the same organism is a GMO and thus dangerous, in other circumstances it is not.

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/569b7b03-f508-49fb-9dcc-6f9c37089c3d%40googlegroups.com.

[Cathal (Phone)]

Or cell-free synbio! Only cells are GMOs under the directive, although my francophone friends tell me that in France a plasmid can be a "GMO" too, so as always.. check local law.

Again: we need a central resource we can all refer to about this stuff. :/

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

I mean, you are right, biology is actually much more than GMO, so I am actually looking for what can be done.
Apparently congenic or cisgenic is possible in Germany, but still waste processing and containment are significant issues. I am a biologist, so I see it everyday the amount of dangerous waste I produce.
I'm trying to get in contact with biotinkering berlin, I guess they could answer to most of the questions.

I am reading the law and it seems quite disheartening, even extracting DNA would be impossible: production of aereosol during shredding of biological material might be dangerous.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/A1F26E63-AD61-4A53-BB9F-5D0B58CB9598%40cathalgarvey.me.

[jonny aba]

Hey,

your are absolutely right, it is important to respect and to follow the German law. However, it seems to me that this kit (http://www.the-odin.com/molecular-biology-lab-starter-kit/) is useful for many things not just genetic engineering.

For example, I can grow bacteria or I can multiply my own DNA (is this right?).

Therefore I am curious if It is prohibit to order all this genetic stuff or just to misuse it? Have you any idea where I can inform myself besides spending my whole day reading the law? Some written guide or somebody who dealt with this issue would be really welcome.

Unfortunately, I live over 150 kilometres away from Heidelberg. Otherwise I would have been delighted to support you in your effort to built a DIYbio community.

At the moment, I am still diving into this topic. Yesterday I found this page https://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/ which I can highly recommend. 

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yes, but there are a couple of problems even with that... growing bacteria is super easy, but you might accidentally grow some dangerous ones without knowing, which is illegal because you were intentionally culturing bacteria and thus aware of the risk.
Amplifying dna I think would be ok, but to do that you need to order primer oligonucleotides and companies producing them ship only to research institutions and universities, definitely not private people.
Getting informed on what can be done is a bit difficult, I think... that's because not so many people do it. Again, contacting other groups like biotinkering or people doing it in germany would be the best.

Il 11/apr/2016 19:52, "jonny aba" <brisi...@web.de> ha scritto:

Hey,

your are absolutely right, it is important to respect and to follow the German law. However, it seems to me that this kit (http://www.the-odin.com/molecular-biology-lab-starter-kit/) is useful for many things not just genetic engineering.

For example, I can grow bacteria or I can multiply my own DNA (is this right?).

Therefore I am curious if It is prohibit to order all this genetic stuff or just to misuse it? Have you any idea where I can inform myself besides spending my whole day reading the law? Some written guide or somebody who dealt with this issue would be really welcome.

Unfortunately, I live over 150 kilometres away from Heidelberg. Otherwise I would have been delighted to support you in your effort to built a DIYbio community.

At the moment, I am still diving into this topic. Yesterday I found this page https://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/ which I can highly recommend. 

Am Montag, 11. April 2016 15:42:00 UTC+2 schrieb ukitel:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/8dbc3930-7880-4104-aed4-126a6a55264f%40googlegroups.com.

[Jérôme Lutz]

hey hey, 

I've been around SynBio in Germany for a year and its tricky to find like minded people - but that's only because they aren't online yet. I discovered huge basic and applied research facilities such as Martinsried next to Munich and a couple of months ago we started a meetup in Munich, now we are around 40 people that meet once a month and that's great to find a way around and meet likeminded people. We are a mix of igemmers, students, phds, entrepreneurs and bio enthusiasts - however we also don't have a biohackspace yet. Since we are located at the startup centre unternehmerTum, I already asked a couple of times if they would provide some space for such a facility but that will most likely take a couple of more years. At least, it's on the agenda. 

In 2014, this Igem team compiled some ressources on what it takes to start a biohackspace.

Let me know when you are around Munich! 

Best, Jérôme 

On Monday, 11 April 2016 15:42:00 UTC+2, ukitel wrote:

Hi Jonas,

German is fine, I understand it, but do you mind if I write in english?

As you know, I am a biologist, but I would also like to do some DIYbio. I started to have a look on what is legally possible here and it is a bit difficult to understand how the law works.

The thing is that a kit like the one you linked would be great to start off, it contains almost everything you need, but from what I've read, it seems that in Germany it would be illegal: producing even a GFP-bacterium would classify as genetic engineering and fall under the Gentechnikgesezt, which says you need an S1 laboratory to do that.

So, unfortunately, I think the only way to go here in Germany is through a community lab like Biotinkerin in Berlin.
I tried to get in contact with them to get some Information about it, but I wasn't successful.
Right now I am looking for hacker/maker spaces in Heidelberg area, maybe there is some space interested in exploring biology.
Are you living around Heidelberg area?

I understand that it feels very lonely, I also got the impression that there isn't too much communication among DIYbio. I actually have all the train and the experience needed to do it and the willingness to teach to others, but one also has to stick to the legal part.

Best,

Marco

On 9 April 2016 at 20:57, jonny aba <brisi...@web.de> wrote:

Hallo,

leider habe ich keinen anderen Weg gefunden Dich zu kontaktieren. Ich hoffe es so weit in Ordnung, dass ich in deutscher Sprache antworte, ansonsten kann ich auch ins Englische wechseln. 

Ich habe mich in den letzten Wochen intensiv mit Genetik beschäftigt und konnte einiges an Grundkenntnissen ansammeln. Nun möchte ich mich auch im praktischen Bereich versuchen. Leider bin ich in einen vollkommen anderen Berufszweig tätig und habe keinen Zugriff auf ein Labor oder anderweitige Ausstattung. Welche Möglichkeiten gibt es in meiner Situation, mich hiermit vertraut zu machen? Ist es Sinnvoll mir ein Starter-Kit ( http://www.the-odin.com/molecular-biology-lab-starter-kit/) zuzulegen ? Mit welchen praktischen Themengebiet kann ich einstiegen um erstmals reinzuschnuppern ?

Leider fühle ich mich derzeit noch recht alleine mit meinem neuen Hobby, im Web finde ich überraschend wenig Informationen. Gibt es weitere Seiten wo ich mich austauschen kann ?

Solltest Du die ein oder andere Frage beantworten können wäre ich Dir sehr dankbar. 

Grüße Jonas

Am Montag, 4. April 2016 18:21:35 UTC+2 schrieb ukitel:

-- 

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/12335ecd-c914-412c-b291-e6f7a83fc3d9%40googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[ukitel]

Hey, thanks, I'll definitely let you know, Munich is not too far from here.
How about the legal landscape in germany? What is your idea about it?
Moreover, I guess it takes some initial financial investment, are you going to share the costs among all of you?
It would be really great to have your feedback about it, at the moment I'm alone here and a bit lost

[jonny aba]

hey,

I found these two "posts" which I recomend to read.

http://streamspace.blogspot.de/2011/02/diybio-and-biotinkering-laws-and.html

https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/berlin/

However, I still remain with many unanswered questions. Maybe I will call the authories in the next few days. 

[jonny aba]

In addition I tried to read the Gentechnikgesetz but I lack the knowledge to understand some details. For exampe, Is putting a PCR-Machine on a table already considered as a "gentechnische Anlage" ? The acutal definition in the law seems odd  

"Einrichtung, in der gentechnische Arbeiten im Sinne der Nummer 2 im geschlossenen System durchgeführt werden und bei der spezifische Einschließungsmaßnahmen angewendet werden, um den Kontakt der verwendeten Organismen mit Menschen und der Umwelt zu begrenzen und ein dem Gefährdungspotenzial angemessenes Sicherheitsniveau zu gewährleisten,"

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Thanks, I knew about the first link, but not the second.
I decided to read the law myself, luckily it is available in English as well, so it makes it easier for me.
The bar is not set too high, but not too low either. It is nothing that I don't experience everyday in my work as a biology researcher. However it is clear that you need at least two people with a biology degree and a space sticking to the requirements, which means money and taxes.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/9febcaea-e5d4-48f4-9086-f20f8e857a55%40googlegroups.com.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

I'll have a deeper look into it and tell you

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

So, my answer would be "no". The comma 2 refers to generation, propagation, storage, transport and disposal of genetically modified organisms. So just having a thermocycler on the bench wouldn't classify you as gentechnische Anlage.

BUT...

If you have  a thermocycler, I guess you would extract DNA and that requires a S1 biosafety level laboratory, because you would handle organisms (that are not dangerous). Also just growing bacteria is a S1 activity (even though you might grow dangerous ones accidentally), the moment you do a transformation then you fall under the Gentechnikgesetz

[jonny aba]

yes it seems like there is no other way than to found a S1 lab. At the moment I have aboslutely no idea where I can find two people who fulfill all the needed requirements. Because of these regulations it wil be much more expensive than I expected.Team effort is needed.

[ukitel]

Exactly, that's a pity...
The first step would be definitely to find other people in the area willing to untertake the effort

The relevant law for a DIYbio, more than the Gentechnikgesetz is the Biostoffverordnung
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/biostoffv_2013/BJNR251410013.html

We should probably set up a space, for people in germany, where to discuss these specific issues

[jonny aba]

I think the first essential step is to conntact somebody who has gone though this and can give us exact answers. You have contacted the guys in Berlin? Possible questions are for example/ cost in the end, reality vs. law, to do list .. etc.

Perhaps it is also a good idea to discuss this topic in Munich?

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

**spezifische Einschließungsmaßnahmen angewendet werden, um den Kontakt der verwendeten Organismen mit Menschen und der Umwelt zu *begrenzen* und ein dem Gefährdungspotenzial *angemessenes Sicherheitsniveau* zu gewährleisten**

As for cisgenics:
As I read it, you can make cisgenics (and this now includes GFP) in your basement in Germany, as long as you do everything in your power to *limit* release in the environment (i.e. no intentional release & sterilize everything and stick to lab standards)

[ukitel]

Yes, definitely
No, still no answer from biotinkering: they suggest to subscribe to their mailing list, but my subscription is still pending. I will try to find another way.
Wasn't biologiegaragen in munich? http://biogarage.de/ Is it you, guys?

[jonny aba]

Hmm that sounds interesting. To be honest I don't unterstand the law at all. Can you provide me some more infos? 

[ukitel]

Sorry, but no, no cisgenics either:
the Biostoffverordnung regulates all activities involving biological agents, even isolation, culturing, etc so not only the specific case of GMOs
this law states that such activities require protective measures, which in the best case is an S1 lab

[jonny aba]

I am not so sure,. Maybe it only regulates the work with employees ? 

"Die Biostoffverordnung (BioStoffV) ist eine Verordnung zum Schutz von Arbeitnehmern bei Tätigkeiten mitbiologischen Arbeitsstoffen.

Die Biostoffverordnung wurde erstmals 1999 erlassen und diente der Umsetzung der Richtlinie 90/679/EWG des Rates der Europäischen Union vom 26. November 1990 über den Schutz der Arbeitnehmer gegen Gefährdung durch biologische Arbeitsstoffe bei der Arbeit."

[ukitel]

I'll try to be more clear:

In the Biostoffverordnung which regulates all the activities involving biological agents is stated at 2.7:

"Activities shall mean:

1.  the use of biological agents, particularly their isolation, production and replication, disintegration, use and consumption, treatment and processing, filling and refilling, mixing and separation, and their transport on company premises, their stocking and storage, inactivation and disposal, as well as

2.  occupational activities involving humans, animals, plants, products, objects or materials, if biological agents may be generated or released as a result of these activities and employees may be in contact with them."

Therefore simply handling a microorganism constitutes a case in the law and therefore protective measures must be taken according to the safety level.
Regarding the safety level, in the "Technische Regeln für Biologische Arbeitsstoffe 500" which focuses on "Basic measures to be taken for activities involving biological agents" is states at 3.2:

"Even if activities involving biological agents are allocated to protection level 1 because of a lack of or only low infection risk, sensitising and toxic risks may be present which render it necessary to take structural, technical, organisational or personal protective measures to minimise the corresponding risk."

So even low risk activities such as growing a bacterium (not to say cisgenics) require a S1 lab.
How an S1 lab is set up is described in "Technische Regeln für Biologische Arbeitsstoffe 200" "Requirements for professional Expertise in accordance with the biological agents ordinance".
In few words, an S1 lab requires 2 people with a degree in biology and training or at least 3 years experience, one of them must act also as a biosafety officer.
The space must have plenty of room, a sink, easy-to-clean surfaces, plus additional safety measures in case of specific activities, such as a hood when culturing fungi.

[ukitel]

Biostoffverordnung 2.9:
"The following persons shall be considered to be equivalent to employees ...: schoolchildren, students, other persons, home workers ... Business owners without employees"

Sorry, it covers everyone doing such an activity.

[jonny aba]

yes you are right :(

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

I mean, I understand that safety is a priority, I work in biology and I know what are the risks and there are many.
But according to such law making beer also constitutes a case, even making joghurt at home...
Probably at the Regierungspräsidium should be able to answer where is the threshold or if also breweries are affected for example. If you want to call them, this might be worth to ask

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/ad42dde2-ac49-4dbe-aae6-746b71b72c6e%40googlegroups.com.

[jonny aba]

okay I talked with somebody...

[ukitel]

Sag mal... :D

[jonny aba]

I called a hotline in Bayern and I talked to a woman. I told her the situation that I want to grow some bacteria and that on youtube there are plenty of German videos where guys doing this stuff and if it is illegal. I also mentioned the "Biostoffverordnung". First she was confused but then she told me, that she has never heard of a privat person who had trouble with  this law. However she also couldn't tell me if it only aplys for companies or for privat people as well. 

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yeah, that's another problem... not so many people do it, so not everyone knows the subject :(

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/d2ffb3fb-0b0f-40f2-91e6-9ed797bc96d6%40googlegroups.com.

[jonny aba]

I am sorry for my English. I wrote fast without checking it again. 

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

No worries
Anyway, thanks for having asked, although it didn't really answer the question...

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/854282f3-3483-41d1-8f98-3554866ddf47%40googlegroups.com.

[jonny aba]

hey,

check this out https://www.dsmz.de/de/kataloge/katalog-mikroorganismen/organismengruppen-und-anwendungen-von-staemmen/staemme-fuer-den-schulunterricht.html

I will call them tomorrow 

[jonny aba]

Okay now I am sure. I checked their page. No way to buy microorganism or to have them. 

[Dakota Hamill]

Dsmz requires a laboratory or commercial address that is verified.

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/c53fd608-f96d-4976-abd6-10910be38ed1%40googlegroups.com.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yeah, again, the only way is to register an S1 lab.
But I really wonder, what if I  do bread, sauerkraut or joghurt at home? The BiostoffV doesn't apply or does it?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/CAGdeWmQD_0Yg6RTA1bWxYw%3D5HZPJ8rcNtO00q8wXPf5ds1Py%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew Gray]

Hey guys,
I help run a space down in Australia. The regulators down here have a list of things you can work on without having to report to them on. It's there anything like this in your regulations in Germany? Also those requirements sound pretty easy to meet! Are you guys starting a space?

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

I can tell you how it work in biology labs: if you are producing GMOs, say, by transforming e.coli, and what you are producing is S1 level, you have to notify the authorities by updating a database with which vectors, species and project you are using them for. You don't need an allowance, just to tell them what you're doing and to keep track of your work.

I'd like to start a space, requirements are relatively easy, but some common effort would be needed. Still checking the feasibility of it.

On 13 April 2016 at 11:43, Andrew Gray <andrew....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey guys,
I help run a space down in Australia. The regulators down here have a list of things you can work on without having to report to them on. It's there anything like this in your regulations in Germany?  Also those requirements sound pretty easy to meet! Are you guys starting a space?

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/0a30af10-6414-40f3-88c0-e23f427516c7%40googlegroups.com.

[Bio Logis]

I'd love to participate.

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

Hi Jonas, I got your message regarding the legal situation in Germany, but responding failed. 

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     b[...]@web.de

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain web.de by mx-ha02.web.de. [212.227.17.8].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 Requested action not taken: mailbox unavailable

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Hello guys,
I have a small update about the situation:

I indeed got in touch with people at biotinkering: after writing to the moderators I was added to the mailing list.
I opened a thread asking for generic help about what can be done and what not in germany in the DIYbio area

Rüdiger Trojok answered providing me two links on the subject:

the first one is a document for the technology assessment office of the Bundestag
http://www.tab-beim-bundestag.de/de/pdf/publikationen/berichte/TAB-Arbeitsbericht-ab164.pdf
the second one is his recent book on Biohacking:
http://www.amazon.de/Biohacking-Gentechnologie-alle-R%C3%BCdiger-Trojok/dp/3645604200

Both seem to me to be very general, or at least to include much more information that the one I needed (I was looking for some focused info on how to relate with the law and the authorities)... So I tried to start a conversation with the intent of pinning down the main points and how they are organized, but regrettably it didn't work. I guess I'll have to read the book and search for that information myself, with my german it'll take me a while... :D

Of course, any kind of help is welcome!

[Bio Logis]

I'd be happy to help with any translations! (I hope you got my E-mail).

Best regards,
L.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yes, I answered as well, did you get my reply?

--

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/09c6e3d2-50ad-4777-879a-42bfb7e6424a%40googlegroups.com.

[Bio Logis]

Yes, sorry, just read it.

[jonny aba]

Hey,

yes the book seems quite promising. I will order it as soon as I will have finished my current one (http://www.amazon.de/Gentechnologie-f%C3%BCr-Einsteiger-T-Brown/dp/3827428688/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461101856&sr=1-1&keywords=gentechnologie+f%C3%BCr+einsteiger)

Am Montag, 18. April 2016 14:58:37 UTC+2 schrieb ukitel:

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Let me know if you buy it and especially if you find something regarding the legal situation in Germany!
Best,

Marco

--

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/9b37d33c-d5bb-4d08-bd43-d65dcb716d9a%40googlegroups.com.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Hello everyone!

I resume the topic because I actually bought and read the book written by Rüdiger Trojok.

He suggested to buy the book and read it, because he didn't have time to answer always to the same questions and suggested to look for "selbstklonierung".

Well, I read almost all the book (I just left out the inital part on biology theory) and unfortunately I found nothing of what I was looking for.

The content of the book is a very general picture of biohacking, it doesn't treat anything in detail. I guess its purpose is more to explain to the general public what DIYbio is about rather than helping DIYers in starting off with biohacking in Germany.

Regaring selbstklonierung, in chapter 12.2 it states"Selbst gentechnische Arbeiten der niedrigsten Sicherheitsstufe durchzuführen, ist für Einzelpersonen de facto legal nicht möglich. Es gibt jedoch eine Ausnahmeregelung: die Selbstklonierung". Then it goes on explaining that selbstclonierung is not classified as GMO, but that anyaway the law is unclear. Even so, in germany activity with biological agents is anyway regulated, so GMO or not there are some legal requirements to be fulfilled. However, the book never goes in the detail of it: it doesn't explain how to organize your things, such as how to store chemicals, how to manage biological waste, if and how to register to authorithies...

There is just a very general statement: "Bei Unklarheiten und Fragen, ob man ein Experiment außerhalb eines Labors durchführen kann oder nicht, wendet man sich im Einzelfall am besten direkt an die zuständige Person für Gentechnik in den Landsgesundheitsämtern".

There are actually some errors, typos here and there (at least in the kindle version), but more importantly in the chapter about synthetic biology there is some serious confusion between transcription and translation, promoters, terminators and RBSs.

In conclusion, after having read the book, I am not a step closer to understand what are the legal borders of DIYbio in Germany, which was the reason Rüdiger suggested me his book and why I wanted to read it.

Apart from this disappointment, the book is a general description of the main aspects of biohacking, from theory, to practice, to its relationship to society. It is basically the only book focusing on germany, therefore it is valuable in this sense, especially in raising visibility of the DIYbio movement and dealing with people's curiosity in it.
However, the book doesn't treat in detail any of the aspect, so if you are already engaged in the movement, you won't really find anything new, apart from some sporadic information.

I think I'll try again to contact Rüdiger, telling him that I read the book. I hope this time he would find some time to answer my questions.

Do you have

[Mega [Andreas Stuermer]]

Probably the book was intended for the general public, who doesn't have knowledge of what a "biology" is at all.

Are there no books about biotech laws? I guess most biologists are not interested in all the laws (just need to know the ones that directly affect them), and most lawyers don't care for biology either.





On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 6:21:35 PM UTC+2, ukitel wrote:

Hi,

Actually I have an academic background and a PhD in biology, but I am a great supporter of the DIYbio philosophy.
I believe biotechnology should be available to everyone and I think that DIYbio can also do a lot to improve the actual system in academy that is driven by novelty at all costs, funding wars and publish-or-perish. I think these things are causing scientists to lose more and more from their view two important aspects about science: doing it for the love of knowledge and doing it for the people, and DIYbio can help to bring this back.

I am looking for other DIYbio enthusiasts in the Heidelberg area. I am not aware of any DIYbio community here, and in this case I would seriously consider the idea to found one. Heidelberg is a great place for it, there are many biology research institution and this attracts lots of students interested in biotechnology. There are many scientific-related events such as science slams. Morevoer, there is also a very successful iGEM team.

If anyone is interested in this, please don't hesitate to contact me.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yes, I think it was definitely the case.

Probably there are books, but they would focus on the usual academic or industrial context.
Anyway, I'm not aware of any. Indeed, as a biologist I didn't care about the law details until now. I was just following the general rules...

--

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en
Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/73b2ac45-e843-4d9e-b77f-ceb80ea3c569%40googlegroups.com.

[Jérôme Lutz]

Hi everyone, Rüdiger was also co-author of the Technikfolgenabschätzungsbereicht for the German Parliament, which you can download at http://www.tab-beim-bundestag.de/de/aktuelles/20151221.html or find the pdf: http://www.tab-beim-bundestag.de/de/pdf/publikationen/berichte/TAB-Arbeitsbericht-ab164.pdf

It's a massive report on the current state of SynBio in Germany and on Page 226 you find some details about lab requirements - but i am not sure if there is anything new for you in there. 

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Thanks for the tip!
Rüdiger also linked that to me, I'll read it soon, although after a first look it seems again quite general to me.
Anyway, I guess that the scarcity of information is mostly due to the fact that no one has done it (in Germany), yet.

How about you? I guess you are also in Germany, are you doing actual DIYbio? It would be great to exchange a few words

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/290d7f42-8e60-4fa0-b8a3-8221480427f1%40googlegroups.com.

[Ruediger Trojok]

Hey everyone,

Jerome just pointed me to the conversation. Thanks for buying my book, ukitel, if you found errors please let me know so i can fix them in the next version.

Indeed, it seems you have progressed beyond the level of where my book helps you. It is ment as an entry point for amateuers.

With your very specific questions you get into a grey area, which is not even defined by the regulators yet! I once tested the waters with a public workshop

in Dresden as part of the cynetart festival 2013. https://www.google.de/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&client=ubuntu#safe=off&q=biohacking+arte 

https://vimeo.com/81553425

I extracted yeast genomic DNA, made competent yeast cells and transformed the yeast with its own DNA. Obviously selbstklonierung. Then i baked a bread with it and wanted to give it to the audience. Before i consulted the authorities (Gesundheitsamt Sachsen). They were confused and consulted the EU commision. They responded and said if i want to hand out GMO as food it takes a 3 years safety testing and registration marathon. So i wasnt allowed to let anyone get close to the bread and had to eat it myself. It created about 10 A4 pages of email conversation with authorities to get to that point.

I am not a lawyer, but as it was pointed out before, very few people work at this intersection of bio and law, especially not outside of institutes. All regulation was made for big corporations or institutes. Biostoffverordnung applies as soon as you interact with other and e.g. teach them. You can do the stuff to yourself at home. Making yoghurt is no issue as long as you DONT KNOW WHAT your doing. It is very bizarre, but in this way they protect laymen making yoghurt from violating the Biostoffverordnung. It somehow differentiates intended and unintended actions. My next step is to eat GFP-E.Coli or sth alike and then consult the authorites again. I will speak to the Bundestagsausschuss on Synthetische Biology about this problem in September.

i heard from insiders in the regulation business that the ministry thinks to revise the entire regulation, but no clue whats on exactly.

As i suggested before, this domain is so grey, its best you talk to your local authorities (often Gesundheitsamt, but varies from Bundesland to Bundesland) to clarify the situation. Or you just do it for yourself at home and no one will ever know. Although that can create issues with neighbors freaking out, as the Beweislast is on you to prove its not dangerous what you are doing. 

Best,

Rüdiger

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Hi Rüdiger,
Nice to read from you again and thanks for the feedback!
Yes, regarding the errors I (supposedly) found, I actually wanted to contact you. Do you prefer me to write here or should I write you a private email?
Also, I'm quite surprised that authorities were fine with you eating bread leavened by GMO yeast.
So apparently, they are fine with people conducting certain experiments at home but not others, but anyway I wouldn't bet on a revision of the regulations anytime soon.
However, it is a good sign that the authorities seem relatively open from what you tell.

It's extremely interesting that the burden of proof is on the defense, it is usually the opposite case. I don't recall anything about it in BiostoffV or GentechnikG, can you point me maybe where to get that info?

One last thing: if I understood well, biotinkering is trying to set up a community lab in Berlin. As you know, I'm checking the feasibility for that here in Heidelberg. Would you be available for a conversation on that and exchange information?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/242cc273-1781-492d-8ab4-544233419551%40googlegroups.com.

[Ruediger Trojok]

i am co founder of biotinkering and we actually just got confronted with authorities interfering with the lab setup.

we were about to rent and reconstruct a place to install a lab, when the construction authorities (we asked to build a new door and wall up another in the building) prohibited the use of the place as a lab. They claimed that it could be theoretically possible that fumes escaping the lab poison the neighbours.

Those people were from construction department and have no clue about labs in general, but they prevented us from installing the lab in a very early stage. they asked to hire external consultance and wanted us to provide a detailled plan with the planned experiments ahead of anything else.

we did not even aim to set up a genetics lab... just wanted to have some kind of working facility with microscopes and so on.

i found this book mentioning the Beweislastumkehr due to the applied precautionary principle

https://books.google.de/books?id=OxFlL4b4lGgC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=beweislastumkehr+vorsorgeprinzip+gentechnik&source=bl&ots=9BVSl14Gmo&sig=vrAvFlzil5SRmDsj4w9SE3heYy4&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYpJ319ozNAhWJUhQKHSVOBtoQ6AEITDAI#v=onepage&q=beweislastumkehr%20vorsorgeprinzip%20gentechnik&f=false

and also this website mentions it

http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/umweltsituation/gentechnik/risikoabschaetzung/vorsorgeprinzip/

Authorities usually argue with the idea of 'Eingriffstiefe', saying that if you modify nature at such fundamental levels, you need to take extra care... 

in some way its true, but in some other its not really applying...

But generally i experienced local authorities as quite friendly, open and helpful. Especially in Berlin the Gentechnik experts are very informed and good to exchange with about topics pushing the boundaries. Its all quite pioneering work we are doing.

If you have any experiences please share them so we can all learn of it.

you can write me an email regarding the book, i am collecting suggestions and hints for the next version.

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Sorry for the late reply, I was overwhelmed with work, but I'd like to continue the discussion.
That's a pity that they stopped the renovation, are you guys planning to find some other way of doing it?

At the moment I am giving priority to find people interested in DIYbio here. Regarding a possible community lab, I thought that such a thing would require some sort of funding to be viable, so I am pursuing a different way: I am in contact with people involved in biotech enterpreneurship and science communication from both the industrial and academic environment: the idea was to look for seed funding or at least the possibility for a lab space in the technology park here. Surprisingly, I am recieving quite a good feedback, many people seem interested and would like to see something like this in heidelberg and are helping me at different levels: from support on pitch presentations to putting me in contact with possible investors.

The most probable channel for this is at the moment through a science association which also has a lab for biology training. Apparently students there are already familiar with DIYbio and would be enthusiasts to have the community lab there. In the next days, we'll discuss about the actual possibilities.

[helpusobi]

Hey :)
I'm an informatics student from Kaiserslautern and I'd love the idea to have a DIYbio movement nearby.
Is this discussion still alive. Or is there another way to contact you?
Apparently there is no meetup group yet or are you those biocomputing guys?
If not it might be helpful to create one, just to have a better way to coordinate things and find people that are interested.
Greetings

helpusobi

[Marco Raffaele Cosenza]

Yes, the discussion is alive: we meet regularly once a week at the Heidelberg makerspace. At the moment we're doing some diy-equipment, we're building a centrifuge out of a blender and we're repairing a pcr machine. We have also teamed up with some students which have designed and produced a low-cost pcr machine. We'll soon organize a workshop at the makerspace.
The best way to get in touch is to subscribe to the newsletter, send me an email on biotophd at gmail dot com
Next meeting is tonight ;)

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups DIYbio group. To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to diybio+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/diybio?hl=en

Learn more at www.diybio.org
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "DIYbio" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/diybio/1L6v0Ev0h8Q/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to diybio+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to diy...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/diybio/a0903a97-620e-4904-af77-2745c57d3c98%40googlegroups.com.