Demon broadband to close shock

[Brian Howie]

End of the road for Demon

I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.

email today

I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband platform
will be closing before the end of this year , with this in mind, I have
put below the details of the alternative service that we will be looking
to migrate you over to.

Blah Blah .......

Vodafone Superfast 1 Package : £16.67 p/m + vat and based on a 18 month
contract.

The package includes :


· Monthly line rental charge for your landline, so no more bills
from BT or your current phone provider for this number.

· Download speeds up to 38 Mbps

· Upload speeds of up to 10 Mbps

· Unlimited Monthly Usage

· Business Router

· UK based support

· 1 static ip address

· Ultimate Speed Guarantee – Guaranteed minimum download speed
of 25Mbps or you will receive a 15% discount off your monthly broadband
bill if you are not receiving the minimum sync speed we are promising,
which remains on your bill until we have worked to increase the sync
speed to the minimum 25Mbps.


There is a One-Off delivery charge for the new fibre router of £8.33 +
vat that will be added to your first monthly invoice, once you are up
and running.


--
Brian

[John Hall]

In message <pmme5l$ke0$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Howie
<nos...@b-howie.co.uk> writes

>End of the road for Demon
>
>I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>
>email today
>
>I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>will be looking to migrate you over to.

<snip>

Thanks for the heads up. I haven't heard from them yet, but I assume
that I will before long. At first sight that offer looks like very good
value, though I imagine that the price is likely to rise considerably
after the initial 18 months.
--
John Hall
"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history
that man can never learn anything from history."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

[David Rance]

Well, I'm paying Vodafone £32.36 per month for exactly that service.
I'm not getting a minimum download speed guarantee (my usual connection
speed is 17.2 Mbps and never more than 23 Mbps). I am in a two year
contract which expires next month.

I seem to remember writing here in late October 2016, "The deal I have
with Vodafone is £25 per month plus VAT which includes fibre and line
rental." Including 20% VAT that equals £30. My first bills were for
£32.19 and now it's £32.36. I don't use that line for phone calls so
where are these extra pennies coming from?

I wonder if I can renegotiate the contract ...

Or find another ISP!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

[Rab C]

In message <pmme5l$ke0$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Howie
<nos...@b-howie.co.uk> writes

>End of the road for Demon
>
>I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>
>email today
>
>I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>will be looking to migrate you over to.
>

What a strange coincidence - my transfer from Demon broadband to Zen was
activated just this morning! Looks like I jumped at the right time.

Still got a bill from Vodafone for September though!

Rab
--
Rab
Please use Reply-To: address
Anything sent to From: address may not be received

[John Hall]

In message <tLSJB8s4...@david.rance.org.uk>, David Rance
<david...@SPAMOFF.invalid> writes

>On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 18:08:07 Brian Howie wrote:
>
>>End of the road for Demon
>>
>>I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>>
>>email today
>>
>>I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>>connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>>platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>>mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>>will be looking to migrate you over to.
>>
>> Blah Blah .......
>>
>>Vodafone Superfast 1 Package : £16.67 p/m + vat and based on a 18
>>month contract.

<snip>

I notice there's an ad from Vodafone on the front page of today's
Telegraph with what sounds like a very similar offer to this. It's £20
per month for "pay monthly" customers. So that's slightly more expensive
even if it includes VAT (the ad doesn't say, so I assume it does), but
you aren't tied to an 18 month contract. The ad also doesn't say whether
that price includes your land line rental or not, If it doesn't then
it's considerably more expensive.

[Brian Howie]

On 04/09/2018 18:53, John Hall wrote:
> In message <pmme5l$ke0$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Howie
> <nos...@b-howie.co.uk> writes
>> End of the road for Demon
>>
>> I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>>
>> email today
>>
>> I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>> connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>> platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>> mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>> will be looking to migrate you over to.
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for the heads up. I haven't heard from them yet, but I assume
> that I will before long. At first sight that offer looks like very good
> value, though I imagine that the price is likely to rise considerably
> after the initial 18 months.

It does look good. I'm with BT for the phone line,and they're not the
cheapest.Speed is ok at 12Meg as I'm 1/2mile from the exchange. They
keep offering fibre, but do I need that speed ? I'll need to look
closely at what's on offer. I've plenty of choice of providers here in
Edinburgh.

Brian

--
Brian

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <cTNGjnGfasjbFwMU@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>, John Hall

<john_...@jhall.co.uk> writes:
>In message <pmme5l$ke0$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Howie
><nos...@b-howie.co.uk> writes
>>End of the road for Demon
>>
>>I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>>
>>email today
>>
>>I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>>connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>>platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>>mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>>will be looking to migrate you over to.
><snip>
>
>Thanks for the heads up. I haven't heard from them yet, but I assume
>that I will before long. At first sight that offer looks like very good
>value, though I imagine that the price is likely to rise considerably
>after the initial 18 months.

Also watch out for non-coterminous contracts: PlusNet try that -
broadband cheap for 18 months, line rental for 12, but a clause in the
broadband one that says "provided you also get line rental from us", and
early termination penalty (of the remaining balance). So if they hike
the line rental ridiculously after 12 months, and you decide to go
elsewhere for line rental, they can up the fee for the remaining 6
months of BB; they'd argue that the "provided ..." clause was there from
the start, so it's you that's changing something, not them.

If your 18 months applies to both BB and line, you're fine. (Though
start looking at alternatives well before it ends of course.) [And
probably buy a domain from a third party to protect your email/site
addresses from this in the future, whatever the provider(s) - I see
jhall has, but anyone else reading this.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"... four Oscars, and two further nominations ... On these criteria, he's
Britain's most successful film director." Powell or Pressburger? no; Richard
Attenborough? no; Nick Park!

[John]

In message <pmme5l$ke0$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Howie
<nos...@b-howie.co.uk> writes

>End of the road for Demon
>
>I terminated my .demon.co.uk email and website last month.
>
>email today
>
>I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
>connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband
>platform will be closing before the end of this year , with this in
>mind, I have put below the details of the alternative service that we
>will be looking to migrate you over to.
>
>

Does anybody know if there are any implications from this for those of
us who kept our .dcu email addresses through Namesco?

Vodafone own the domain name, which gives rise to the odd situation
that, although we own the subdomain for emails we cannot access the dns
settings - only Vodafone can do this (and they won't). Hopefully, the
domain will transfer to Namesco, but does anybody know?


--
John

[Brian Howie]

My demon e-mail and website have gone. but I still have the fixed IP
demon address for my broadband, b-howie.demon.co.uk [80.177.221.69]

I no longer own the e-mail subdomain, if I owned it in the first place.

--
Brian

[underante]

i received the same email today but (as yet) there seems to be no mention of closure on the demon.net website or vodafone either as far as i can see.
an additional problem is when i check the availability of the vodafone fibre offering it is not available in my area.
oh dear.
maybe i'll just go for BT broadband, they are always nagging me to change . . .

[Wm]

On 04/09/2018 18:08, Brian Howie wrote:

> email today
>
> I am contacting you today regarding your existing Demon broadband
> connection currently live through Vodafone. The Demon broadband platform
> will be closing before the end of this year , with this in mind, I have
> put below the details of the alternative service that we will be looking
> to migrate you over to.
>
>  Blah Blah .......

I got my "move on you're not wanted here" e-mail on 22 Aug though mine
was worded differently
===
I am contacting you today regarding the existing Demon broadband
connection currently live through Vodafone. You may have heard that the
Demon platform will be closing in the near future so I have provided
information on the alternative option
===

Note "will be closing before the end of this year" vs "You may have
heard that the Demon platform will be closing in the near future".

Not quite the same. I am reminded of shops last last century that used
to have perpetual / rolling "closing at the end of the month! everything
must go!" advertising until the ASA had a word with them.

It does prompt me again that I have been meaning to look around and the
thing that has changed for me is that I have decided I do need more
speed, not because my browsing habits have changed but because the
amount of crud delivered with each page I view is growing in spite of ad
blocks, etc.

Oh, and my offer is
===
Vodafone Superfast 1 Package : £20.00 p/m + vat and based on a 18 month
contract.
===
same technical / contractual offering, just a higher price.

My guess? This is speculative and there is no pending closure.

--
Wm

[John Hall]

In message <pmrd26$3a5$1...@dont-email.me>, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk>
writes

>Oh, and my offer is
>===
>Vodafone Superfast 1 Package : £20.00 p/m + vat and based on a 18 month
>contract.
>===
>same technical / contractual offering, just a higher price.

Maybe they have cut the price is the couple of weeks since you received
your email.

[Chris B]

On 06/09/2018 12:24, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

>
> Also watch out for non-coterminous contracts: PlusNet try that -
> broadband cheap for 18 months, line rental for 12, but a clause in the
> broadband one that says "provided you also get line rental from us", and
> early termination penalty (of the remaining balance). So if they hike
> the line rental ridiculously after 12 months, and you decide to go
> elsewhere for line rental, they can up the fee for the remaining 6
> months of BB; they'd argue that the "provided ..." clause was there from
> the start, so it's you that's changing something, not them.
>
> If your 18 months applies to both BB and line, you're fine. (Though
> start looking at alternatives well before it ends of course.) [And
> probably buy a domain from a third party to protect your email/site
> addresses from this in the future, whatever the provider(s) - I see
> jhall has, but anyone else reading this.]

BT do the same trick, reduced price BB for 18 months but line rental is
pay for 11 months get 12. At the end of the 12 months you can A) Pay
(higher) line rental monthly for 6 months until the end of your BB offer
then move or B) Sign up for another get 12 months line rental for the
price of 11 and pay elevated BB charges for the second 6 months of this
contract.

I think (A) usually works out cheaper.


--
Chris B (News)

[Graeme Wall]

I've gone but my website is still there!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

[Martin Brown]

Take a look at Plusnet deals too. The Vodafone offer doesn't look all
that bad to me if you wanted to stay with them - worth askign if they
will do any deals if you also have a mobile phone contract with them.
>


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[phil]

Me too. Left in March 2016 but www.kapok.demon.co.uk is still there.
Can't get to it to change it any more though.

[Wm]

On 06/09/2018 17:00, John Hall wrote:
> In message <pmrd26$3a5$1...@dont-email.me>, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> Oh, and my offer is
>> ===
>> Vodafone Superfast 1 Package : £20.00 p/m + vat and based on a 18
>> month contract.
>> ===
>> same technical / contractual offering, just a higher price.
>
> Maybe they have cut the price is the couple of weeks since you received
> your email.

Possibly, the free gift part of my offer ended 3 Sep.

I think I'm going to give Vodafone a call tomorrow because PlusNet looks
more attractive than Vodadone *unless* I am offered the same deal as
BrianH which is looking rather good on reflection.

--
Wm

[Wm]

Thanks to John and Chris for reminding me of this.

Which brings me back to keeping my existing land line which I hardly use
and going PlusNet Unlimited Fibre Broadband Only for t'net

Ho hum, I thought there was a regulator that was meant to be making this
all better <-- observation rather than suggestion for lengthy discussion

--
Wm

[Malcolm Loades]

The Vodafone pricing does look pretty good even for non-Demon/Vodafone
customers. They're offering me unlimited Superfast 2 inc. line rental
at £27/mth. I have the same spec'd package with Zen at £48.36/mth.

What has Vodafone support been like for those of you using them? Zen's
support is reportedly top class but I've never needed to test that
myself! I did call Vodafone to ask whether my IP address would be
static. The call was answered promptly, the guy knew what he was
talking about and yes, I could have a static IP address. A few other
questions were answered equally well. Pre-sales support was excellent.

With Vodafone the local fibre then cable to my home wont be a change,
just the Vodafone infrastructure into Openreach. Is that reliable?

Malcolm

[Wm]

On 07/09/2018 08:26, Malcolm Loades wrote:
> The Vodafone pricing does look pretty good even for non-Demon/Vodafone
> customers.  They're offering me unlimited Superfast 2 inc. line rental
> at £27/mth.  I have the same spec'd package with Zen at £48.36/mth.

Are they offering anything really different to what can be found on
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/packages

Aside: does anyone know of a better place to compare ? I am fickle when
it comes to comparison sites :)

> What has Vodafone support been like for those of you using them?

If Vodafone support is what I've had in the last year from "Demon
Technical Support" then I'd say excellent, they managed some in depth
contention issues superbly. However, I can't say I know with any
certainty how Demon and Vodafone support mix and match; my Demon product
gets me Business Support and it could all be different if you don't have
that.

It looks to me as though providers are bifurcating offers repeatedly in
the hope of getting someone to sign up *now*. What a mess, I'm not even
sure the product I have even exists any more so why should you accept my
word about the service I have received, etc ?

>> Zen's
> support is reportedly top class but I've never needed to test that
> myself!  I did call Vodafone to ask whether my IP address would be
> static.  The call was answered promptly, the guy knew what he was
> talking about and yes, I could have a static IP address.  A few other
> questions were answered equally well.  Pre-sales support was excellent.

Isn't that what sales people are for ? :)

> With Vodafone the local fibre then cable to my home wont be a change,
> just the Vodafone infrastructure into Openreach.  Is that reliable?

If the Q is "do vodafone and BT talk to each other?" I think the obvious
answer has to be yes given the size of the pair of them in the market.
Why would they need to "infrastructure" much after a change or am I
missing something?

--
Wm

[David Rance]

On Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:26:18 Malcolm Loades wrote:

>What has Vodafone support been like for those of you using them?

Pretty good. They answer promptly and know what they're talking about
for the most part.

I say "for the most part" because there is one problem that, although
I've reported it a couple of times, they haven't been able to sort it.
It's a strange problem. I can access any address on the web using
Vodafone *except my own web site which is hosted by IDNet*. Fortunately
I do have another line which I can use so I can access it, but it's
something that one knows is wrong and therefore would like it to be put
right.

The people on the helpdesk do come back to me to report progress but
simply say that they cannot find out why this should be. No, they said,
it wasn't a matter of routing. They themselves can access my web pages
but simply cannot understand why I can't using my Vodafone line.

But even though they haven't solved the problem, at least I can have a
dialogue with them. Although I haven't had many problems, they've been
ok as far as others are concerned.

[Martin Brown]

On 07/09/2018 09:01, Wm wrote:
> On 07/09/2018 08:26, Malcolm Loades wrote:
>> The Vodafone pricing does look pretty good even for non-Demon/Vodafone
>> customers.  They're offering me unlimited Superfast 2 inc. line rental
>> at £27/mth.  I have the same spec'd package with Zen at £48.36/mth.
>
> Are they offering anything really different to what can be found on
> https://www.thinkbroadband.com/packages
>
> Aside: does anyone know of a better place to compare ?  I am fickle when
> it comes to comparison sites :)

Use it as a guide and then probe the ISP's actual site to see if they
will offer you a better deal directly (especially true if you already
have a mobile phone contract with one of them).

>
>> What has Vodafone support been like for those of you using them?
>
> If Vodafone support is what I've had in the last year from "Demon
> Technical Support" then I'd say excellent, they managed some in depth
> contention issues superbly.  However, I can't say I know with any
> certainty how Demon and Vodafone support mix and match; my Demon product
> gets me Business Support and it could all be different if you don't have
> that.
>
> It looks to me as though providers are bifurcating offers repeatedly in
> the hope of getting someone to sign up *now*.  What a mess, I'm not even
> sure the product I have even exists any more so why should you accept my
> word about the service I have received, etc ?

If you aren't talking to customer retention every couple of years then
you are probably being ripped off (with any ISP or mobile phone deal).
An astonishing number of people are still inertia paying extra for their
old "new" mobile handset long after their contract has expired.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Wm]

On 07/09/2018 09:16, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 07/09/2018 09:01, Wm wrote:
>> On 07/09/2018 08:26, Malcolm Loades wrote:
>>> The Vodafone pricing does look pretty good even for
>>> non-Demon/Vodafone customers.  They're offering me unlimited
>>> Superfast 2 inc. line rental at £27/mth.  I have the same spec'd
>>> package with Zen at £48.36/mth.
>>
>> Are they offering anything really different to what can be found on
>> https://www.thinkbroadband.com/packages
>>
>> Aside: does anyone know of a better place to compare ?  I am fickle
>> when it comes to comparison sites :)
>
> Use it as a guide and then probe the ISP's actual site to see if they
> will offer you a better deal directly (especially true if you already
> have a mobile phone contract with one of them).

I am doing just that, except my mobile phone contract is very, very dull
and I'd need to change that as well.

I meant, for e.g. much as MSE is the best there is in some areas their
broadband tool
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/broadband/
doesn't really help much if you aren't new-ish

>>> What has Vodafone support been like for those of you using them?
>>
>> If Vodafone support is what I've had in the last year from "Demon
>> Technical Support" then I'd say excellent, they managed some in depth
>> contention issues superbly.  However, I can't say I know with any
>> certainty how Demon and Vodafone support mix and match; my Demon
>> product gets me Business Support and it could all be different if you
>> don't have that.
>>
>> It looks to me as though providers are bifurcating offers repeatedly
>> in the hope of getting someone to sign up *now*.  What a mess, I'm not
>> even sure the product I have even exists any more so why should you
>> accept my word about the service I have received, etc ?
>
> If you aren't talking to customer retention every couple of years then
> you are probably being ripped off (with any ISP or mobile phone deal).

Hmmmn, what if, as has happened again, the provider is trying to get
people to move on? Doesn't that imply that people that are being
offered deals should look around and if they find nothing better stay
exactly where they are because a better deal will be along shortly.

To make it clear, I think this is the obverse of customer retention, I
think they are trying to get rid of customers that have very good deals.

> An astonishing number of people are still inertia paying extra for their
> old "new" mobile handset long after their contract has expired.

Aren't the clever folk keeping their contracts separate? I honestly do
not see why such diverse things as the physical object I use for making
phone calls and who I pay to send an e-mail must be related.

--
Wm

[Martin Brown]

They don't *have* to be related but as a purchaser if you are offering
one company line rnetal, ISP service contract and a mobile contract then
you have slightly more leverage than having them all with different
suppliers. Default renewal *always* gets you ripped off.

I reckon anyone with any sense these days is on an own the phone SIM
only deal but a lot of people must be on handset included monthly
judging by the contract offerings on the websites.

In the old days you didn't even get close to a good deal until you had
asked for and got your migration code - only then do you get passed to
customer retention who have some latitude to negotiate good deals.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Malcolm Loades]

On 07/09/2018 09:01, Wm wrote:

I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the local
BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone. If this
is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?

Malcolm

[Wm]

On 06/09/2018 22:07, Wm wrote:

[ff to self]

> I think I'm going to give Vodafone a call tomorrow because PlusNet looks
> more attractive than Vodadone *unless* I am offered the same deal as
> BrianH which is looking rather good on reflection.

Call done.

Unreliable news:

there is a date for the closure [1]

there isn't *a* date for closure for everyone because of varying
contracts built up over time [2]

I am not going to say who said what but if what I was told is true and
my understanding is approximately correct people should aim to tidy up
their demon affairs before the start of the next financial year or maybe
the month before or a bit before that depending on when their contract
ends, what sort of contract they have and other details I don't know and
can't be aware of [3]

[1] the person I spoke to said an actual date has only become known to
them recently vs it-must-all-end-sometime

[2] this makes sense if you think about it

[3] to add to the fun the person I spoke to was lacking some information
about me and my contract too

===

Make of this what you will, I made a ph call, I spoke to someone, this
is my understanding.

I am not trying to spread a rumor.

I don't want anyone to believe what I have said above without checking
for themselves.

Personally, I am now actively looking for a new BB provider, my personal
deadline is early next year, maybe before New Year, I can't help
wondering if, as I have said previously, the offers won't get better as
the deadline gets closer but to play that game I must keep an eye out
for offers from others and one of them might catch my eye.

To: JohnH and other people that were here before me, if what I have been
told is true, it looks like BB is ending too and we should all be
realistic about that just as we have had to be about other systemic
closures.

--
Wm

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pmtc4i$acn$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> writes:
[]

>If you aren't talking to customer retention every couple of years then
>you are probably being ripped off (with any ISP or mobile phone deal).
>An astonishing number of people are still inertia paying extra for
>their old "new" mobile handset long after their contract has expired.
>

It's one of those annual chores. You have to haggle every year, with
ISPs, insurance (car, home, pet, whatever else you have), energy
suppliers, probably other such too.

I've thought for a few years now there's a market opening for a company
(or companies) who say "we're not the cheapest, but we're reasonable,
and we won't stiff you with a ridiculous hike if you auto-renew", for
surely the increasing number of us who'd love to avoid the annual
hassle, but since (AFAIK!) nobody's saying that, presumably it isn't
viable.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you're playing a killer monster, be very quiet. -
Anthony Hopkins, RT 2016/10/22-28

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pmrr4c$lh3$1...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall

<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
>On 06/09/2018 13:41, Brian Howie wrote:

[]

>> My demon e-mail and website have gone. but I still have the fixed IP
>>demon address for my broadband, b-howie.demon.co.uk [80.177.221.69]
>> I no longer own the e-mail subdomain, if I owned it in the first
>>place.
>>
>
>I've gone but my website is still there!
>

Your "From:" line (as above) still shows the greywall bit, though
presumably that's just a Thunderbird setting.

[Wm]

Notwithstanding local knowledge to the contrary I think the answer is
"as a punter you are unlikely to notice any difference" mainly because
anything you or I do to a backbone in traffic terms will be
insignificant [1]

[1] I can think of some reasons that might not be right but how likely
are they?

--
Wm

[Graeme Wall]

On 07/09/2018 11:03, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <pmrr4c$lh3$1...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> On 06/09/2018 13:41, Brian Howie wrote:
> []
>>>  My demon e-mail and website have gone. but I still have the fixed IP
>>> demon address for my broadband, b-howie.demon.co.uk [80.177.221.69]
>>>  I no longer own the e-mail subdomain, if I owned it in the first place.
>>>
>>
>> I've gone but my website is still there!
>>
> Your "From:" line (as above) still shows the greywall bit, though
> presumably that's just a Thunderbird setting.

That's because I set the Eternal September account up while still with
Demon and have never bothered to change it. Hence the line in my sig.

[Richard_CC]

On 07/09/2018 10:09, Martin Brown wrote:
> I reckon anyone with any sense these days is on an own the phone SIM
> only deal but a lot of people must be on handset included monthly
> judging by the contract offerings on the websites.

I wholly agree if you look at it rationally. I have used sim only for
years and find good deals, and I buy my own unlocked phone. I can do
that because I have the cash for a decent mid range phone every 3 years
or so, and my street cred doesn't suffer because I don't have the latest
galaxy-iphone.

I suspect the very many people who get handset deals either want the
latest kit and don't have £600 to £900 to shell out in one go, or have
very little cash and prefer to pay monthly than upfront.

There are parallels with ISPs. If you have the time and interest to
build your own you separate the functions and just buy the connection:
others just want a bundle - connection, phone, entertainment/streaming,
TV and the suppliers are keen to sell that because that's where the
profit is.

Vodafone have c 430k broadband customers. BT, Sky and Virgin each have
between 5 and 10 million customers, and I'm guessing most of them take
some sort of bundle. Vodafone have well over 15 million mobile phone
customers, I wonder how broadband fits their commercial strategy -
profit must be tiny in context of the whole business.

I'm not surprised that Demon is going. I have been with Zen for some
time now but would have been tempted by the current Vodafone offer. For
me it was death by a thousand cuts as Demon lost its way. Perhaps
deliberate, let customers wither away so its less hassle to close it
completely.

I don't think Vodafone do ADSL - it's all at least FTTC - so what of any
remaining customers who can't access that?

Anyway - once there is a firm date how about a massive online get
together so we can all raise a glass to our webcams and toast a once
very fine company? Is that even possible?

[Wm]

On 07/09/2018 12:48, Richard_CC wrote:

> I wholly agree if you look at it rationally.  I have used sim only for
> years and find good deals, and I buy my own unlocked phone.  I can do
> that because I have the cash for a decent mid range phone every 3 years
> or so, and my street cred doesn't suffer because I don't have the latest
> galaxy-iphone.

Pffft! I have a Casio fx-85MS calculator *and* a Nokia 1208 with credit
on a PAYG account. I do have a more grown up phone but I own that too
and the SIM is from someone else.

Needless to say, I am so embarrassed about my phone no-one calls me <--
think about the inversion there

> I suspect the very many people who get handset deals either want the
> latest kit and don't have £600 to £900 to shell out in one go, or have
> very little cash and prefer to pay monthly than upfront.

I make money by lending money to people like that through p2p finance,
guilt free for me, this is *not* a woman in a far away place trying to
get money for a bag of seed to plant for harvest next year, this is a
spotty faced greedy early twenties boy who *must* have today's tech and
will do almost anything to get it.

> There are parallels with ISPs.  If you have the time and interest to
> build your own you separate the functions and just buy the connection:
> others just want a bundle - connection, phone, entertainment/streaming,
> TV and the suppliers are keen to sell that because that's where the
> profit is.

Surely the profit is in the sale of the bits people don't use rather
than the package itself?

Or, if we look back up, people buying stuff they don't want or need.

> Vodafone have c 430k broadband customers.  BT, Sky and Virgin each have
> between 5 and 10 million customers, and I'm guessing most of them take
> some sort of bundle.  Vodafone have well over 15 million mobile phone
> customers, I wonder how broadband fits their commercial strategy -
> profit must be tiny in context of the whole business.

They do own some infrastructure from C&W and other acquisitions.

> I'm not surprised that Demon is going. I have been with Zen for some
> time now but would have been tempted by the current Vodafone offer.  For
> me it was death by a thousand cuts as Demon lost its way.  Perhaps
> deliberate, let customers wither away so its less hassle to close it
> completely.

fx:Grumble, if you're going to be like that why did anyone buy Demon in
the first place?

> I don't think Vodafone do ADSL - it's all at least FTTC - so what of any
> remaining customers who can't access that?

I've no answer to that but I can predict that the last few customers are
going to be very expensive to get rid off.

> Anyway - once there is a firm date how about a massive online get
> together so we can all raise a glass to our webcams and toast a once
> very fine company?  Is that even possible?

I think it is possible only if we can all agree on a common sex chat
room [1], I doubt Skype could handle it after the last mess.

[1] sex chat and related stuff seems to have more bandwidth than most so
it would be an easy piggy back

--
Wm

[John Hall]

In message <pmthve$n3c$1...@dont-email.me>, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk>
writes

>To: JohnH and other people that were here before me, if what I have
>been told is true, it looks like BB is ending too and we should all be
>realistic about that just as we have had to be about other systemic
>closures.

I didn't doubt that my Demon broadband would be ending, based on the
emails that you and others have received. The only question was when. In
previous years I've always had my annual invoice for the coming year in
late February, stating the amount to be debited two weeks later. From
what you have said, it seems likely that they won't be pulling the plug
on me before then. So I suppose I will probably be hearing from them in
February. I know they have my current email address, as they manage to
send invoices to it. (I remembered to set up an alternative email
address on their e-billing when the plug was pulled on Demon email
addresses (unless one went to Namesco if course, which I didn't want to
do, already having switched almost all of my correspondents over to
using my jhall.co.uk email address many years ago).

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pmto42$rv0$2...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
[]

>>> I've gone but my website is still there!
>>>
>> Your "From:" line (as above) still shows the greywall bit, though
>>presumably that's just a Thunderbird setting.
>
>That's because I set the Eternal September account up while still with
>Demon and have never bothered to change it. Hence the line in my sig.
>
>

That probably means you can't change it? (And probably we - since I
think I set up my E-S account under dcu too - are breaking an E-S term.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"The wish of the lazy to allow unsupervised access [to the internet] to their
children should not reduce all adults browsing to the level of suitability for
a
five-year-old." Yaman Akdeniz, quoted in Inter//face (The Times, 1999-2-10):
p12

[John Hall]

In message <fvev06...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades
<dev...@loades.net> writes

>I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the local
>BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone. If this
>is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?

If that's the case, then it would rule them out for me, as according to
SamKnows they don't have an LLU presence at my exchange.

[Graeme Wall]

On 07/09/2018 20:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <pmto42$rv0$2...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
> []
>>>> I've gone but my website is still there!
>>>>
>>> Your "From:" line (as above) still shows the greywall bit, though
>>> presumably that's just a Thunderbird setting.
>>
>> That's because I set the Eternal September account up while still with
>> Demon and have never bothered to change it. Hence the line in my sig.
>>
>>
> That probably means you can't change it? (And probably we - since I
> think I set up my E-S account under dcu too - are breaking an E-S term.)

Must confess, until you mentioned it I've not really thought about it.
A simple matter to register again under a new email address I suppose.

[Richard_CC]

On 07/09/2018 13:36, Wm wrote:
> fx:Grumble, if you're going to be like that why did anyone buy Demon in
> the first place?

I doubt they set out to buy Demon: they wanted C&W Uk infrastructure and
Demon came with it. Bit like a non smoker buying a car - you still buy
the ashtray like it or not.

[Brian Howie]

I managed to change my ES e-mail without a problem. My ES user name
isn't my e-mail address I also removed my nospam.demon spam address from
my News Clents.

Brian

--
Brian

[Peter Hill]

On 07/09/2018 21:18, John Hall wrote:
> In message <fvev06...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades
> <dev...@loades.net> writes
>> I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the
>> local BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone.
>> If this is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?
>
> If that's the case, then it would rule them out for me, as according to
> SamKnows they don't have an LLU presence at my exchange.

I'm not sure the fibre and copper are always to the same exchange.

From the work done, I think the fibre in my village Rolleston on Dove
came from Burton on Trent as an extension from Stretton, while the
copper goes to a different exchange in Tutbury. When the fibre reached
Stretton it was only 2 km into Rolleston but 2.5 km to Tutbury.

[Bryan Morris]

In message <pmunib$7tk$1...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes

>Must confess, until you mentioned it I've not really thought about it.
>A simple matter to register again under a new email address I suppose.
>

Why bother with that?
--
Bryan Morris

[Graeme Wall]

Well I haven't so far.

[Wm]

On 07/09/2018 20:22, John Hall wrote:
> In message <pmthve$n3c$1...@dont-email.me>, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> To: JohnH and other people that were here before me, if what I have
>> been told is true, it looks like BB is ending too and we should all be
>> realistic about that just as we have had to be about other systemic
>> closures.
>
> I didn't doubt that my Demon broadband would be ending, based on the
> emails that you and others have received. The only question was when. In
> previous years I've always had my annual invoice for the coming year in
> late February, stating the amount to be debited two weeks later. From
> what you have said, it seems likely that they won't be pulling the plug
> on me before then. So I suppose I will probably be hearing from them in
> February. I know they have my current email address, as they manage to
> send invoices to it. (I remembered to set up an alternative email
> address on their e-billing when the plug was pulled on Demon email
> addresses (unless one went to Namesco if course, which I didn't want to
> do, already having switched almost all of my correspondents over to
> using my jhall.co.uk email address many years ago).

My offer was sent to my own domain which is also the one invoices get
sent to so hopefully any offer you get won't disappear.

--
Wm

[Martin Brown]

On 07/09/2018 21:18, John Hall wrote:

> In message <fvev06...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades
> <dev...@loades.net> writes
>> I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the
>> local BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone.
>> If this is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?
>
> If that's the case, then it would rule them out for me, as according to
> SamKnows they don't have an LLU presence at my exchange.

Outside of major towns and cities there is very little LLU in any of the
rural exchanges unless one of the directors of ISP live(s/d) nearby.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 07/09/2018 13:36, Wm wrote:

> On 07/09/2018 12:48, Richard_CC wrote:
>
> They do own some infrastructure from C&W and other acquisitions.
>
>> I'm not surprised that Demon is going. I have been with Zen for some
>> time now but would have been tempted by the current Vodafone offer.
>> For me it was death by a thousand cuts as Demon lost its way.  Perhaps
>> deliberate, let customers wither away so its less hassle to close it
>> completely.
>
> fx:Grumble, if you're going to be like that why did anyone buy Demon in
> the first place?

They didn't intentionally buy Demon - it was merely an unwanted side
effect of a much bigger deal to get hold of some C&W infrastructure.

>> I don't think Vodafone do ADSL - it's all at least FTTC - so what of
>> any remaining customers who can't access that?
>
> I've no answer to that but I can predict that the last few customers are
> going to be very expensive to get rid off.

Why? All they have to do is let the service gradually degrade -
something that they have arguably been doing for nearly a decade now.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 07/09/2018 21:37, Graeme Wall wrote:

It's trivial to fix. Right click on the server name and choose settings.
Email address is one of the fields.

Be careful what you wish for though back in the old innocent days I used
to post with my own email address. That was until the swenfest when
inbound hostile binaries topped 1GB/day - since then I keep my personal
email address and public ones very very separate.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Graeme Wall]

Reason that I use this particular address, even when it was valid I
never collected the emails for it, just periodically logged in via the
demon website and did a select all - delete. I now have a couple of
gmail addresses for the same purpose. Useful for plugging into pub wifis.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pn7vc3$1ipu$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, Martin Brown

<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> writes:
>On 07/09/2018 21:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 07/09/2018 20:34, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> In message <pmto42$rv0$2...@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
>>><ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>> []
>>>>>> I've gone but my website is still there!
>>>>>>
>>>>> Your "From:" line (as above) still shows the greywall bit, though
>>>>>presumably that's just a Thunderbird setting.
>>>>
>>>> That's because I set the Eternal September account up while still
>>>>with Demon and have never bothered to change it. Hence the line in
>>>>my sig.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That probably means you can't change it? (And probably we - since I
>>>think I set up my E-S account under dcu too - are breaking an E-S term.)
>> Must confess, until you mentioned it I've not really thought about
>>it. A simple matter to register again under a new email address I
>>suppose.
>
>It's trivial to fix. Right click on the server name and choose settings.
>Email address is one of the fields.

But surely that only changes it in your local client software; it
doesn't change what eternal-september have on file as your email
address. I'm not sure if doing so requires you to be able to receive
emails to the old address (so they can send an email "we've had a
request to change your email - is that correct?"). Of course, if they
_do_ have such a mechanism, then as Graeme says, it'd be trivial to
register anew with your new address - the only thing you'd lose (apart
from having to set up all your newsgroups again, and get them up to
sync. with the ones you had before) is any "grandfather rights", i. e.
anything older registrations are allowed to do that new ones aren't.
(Such as use shorter passwords maybe.)

>
>Be careful what you wish for though back in the old innocent days I
>used to post with my own email address. That was until the swenfest
>when inbound hostile binaries topped 1GB/day - since then I keep my
>personal email address and public ones very very separate.
>

[I've been lucky. I let my old dcu one - certainly the subdomain part -
into the wild fairly early on, and even by the end, wasn't getting much
spam; I think I've let my new one escape - certainly, the domain part,
as I post with it - and I don't think I've had five spams in a couple of
years. (Possibly not any, but I may have forgotten one or two.)]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

[Martin Brown]

On 07/09/2018 06:44, Wm wrote:
> On 06/09/2018 17:43, Chris B wrote:
>> On 06/09/2018 12:24, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Also watch out for non-coterminous contracts: PlusNet try that -
>>> broadband cheap for 18 months, line rental for 12, but a clause in
>>> the broadband one that says "provided you also get line rental from
>>> us", and early termination penalty (of the remaining balance). So if
>>> they hike the line rental ridiculously after 12 months, and you
>>> decide to go elsewhere for line rental, they can up the fee for the
>>> remaining 6 months of BB; they'd argue that the "provided ..." clause
>>> was there from the start, so it's you that's changing something, not
>>> them.
>>>
>>> If your 18 months applies to both BB and line, you're fine. (Though
>>> start looking at alternatives well before it ends of course.) [And
>>> probably buy a domain from a third party to protect your email/site
>>> addresses from this in the future, whatever the provider(s) - I see
>>> jhall has, but anyone else reading this.]
>>
>>
>> BT do the same trick, reduced price BB for 18 months but line rental
>> is pay for 11 months get 12.  At the end of the 12 months you can A)
>> Pay (higher) line rental monthly for 6 months until the end of your BB
>> offer then move or B) Sign up for another get 12 months line rental
>> for the price of 11 and pay elevated BB charges for the second 6
>> months of this contract.
>>
>> I think (A) usually works out cheaper.
>
> Thanks to John and Chris for reminding me of this.
>
> Which brings me back to keeping my existing land line which I hardly use
> and going PlusNet Unlimited Fibre Broadband Only for t'net

If you are in one of the areas served by microwave links (and meet the
strict line of sight criteria) you can get fast broadband for about the
same as landline plus line rental. Several of my neighbours have ditched
poxy old landlines at ~2Mbps tops for microwave and mobile phone only.
>
> Ho hum, I thought there was a regulator that was meant to be making this
> all better <-- observation rather than suggestion for lengthy discussion

The propose of the superfast broadband initiative is to get faster
broadband to 95% of the population and promise the rest jam tomorrow.
(but never jam today)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Richard_CC]

I wonder if there will be some differential pricing after the special
offer period and they will charge more where they don't have LLU.
Pricing can be used in 2 ways - one to make sure margins are the same in
both cases, or you simply jack the price up so much you are
uncompetitive and drive all the non LLU customers away.

Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone leaflets
in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they are keen to
get customers - any customers.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pnak0e$o13$1...@dont-email.me>, Richard_CC
<ric...@nospam.rjcresources.co.uk> writes:
[]

>Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone
>leaflets in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they
>are keen to get customers - any customers.
>

I doubt it's that: more that junk mail distributors (even big ones,
probably including Royal Mail) aren't that bothered about filtering by
relevance. I see plenty of inappropriate mail: flyers for gardening
services to (non-ground-floor) flats, so something as subtle as LLU will
be well beyond them. They're paid by numbers.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
- Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

[Martin Brown]

On 12/09/2018 09:50, Richard_CC wrote:
> On 11/09/2018 09:18, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 07/09/2018 21:18, John Hall wrote:
>>> In message <fvev06...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades
>>> <dev...@loades.net> writes
>>>> I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the
>>>> local BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone.
>>>> If this is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?
>>>
>>> If that's the case, then it would rule them out for me, as according
>>> to SamKnows they don't have an LLU presence at my exchange.
>>
>> Outside of major towns and cities there is very little LLU in any of
>> the rural exchanges unless one of the directors of ISP live(s/d) nearby.
>>
> I wonder if there will be some differential pricing after the special
> offer period and they will charge more where they don't have LLU.

All ISPs already charge more for less if you are out in the sticks.
There is no real competition unless some local entrepeneur sets up a
microwave link like Clannet or B4rn fibre to farm peer to peer network.

https://b4rn.org.uk/

> Pricing can be used in 2 ways - one to make sure margins are the same in
> both cases, or you simply jack the price up so much you are
> uncompetitive and drive all the non LLU customers away.

There is another model - charge the poor sods who have no choice
whatever you can get away with. BT have a monopoly and some places are
stuck on <2Mbps forever because the wiring is mixed aluminium copper
with corroded joints that rectify (and so scramble) ADSL signals.

>
> Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone leaflets
> in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they are keen to
> get customers - any customers.

Who can tell. Voodoo promotional ads have just been censured by the ASA.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Wm]

On 12/09/2018 10:18, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <pnak0e$o13$1...@dont-email.me>, Richard_CC
> <ric...@nospam.rjcresources.co.uk> writes:
> []
>> Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone
>> leaflets in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they
>> are keen to get customers - any customers.
>>
> I doubt it's that: more that junk mail distributors (even big ones,
> probably including Royal Mail) aren't that bothered about filtering by
> relevance. I see plenty of inappropriate mail: flyers for gardening
> services to (non-ground-floor) flats, so something as subtle as LLU will
> be well beyond them. They're paid by numbers.

Who stuff gets delivered to isn't a distributor issue. I worked in that
industry for a good few years.

The details that allow specific snail mail are available but it is often
more expensive to buy the details than just deliver to all addresses in
a target area.

Where I am it seems that Virgin are *never* going to give up, they paid
to dig up the street and lay their cable and they're going to keep on
thrashing it until they get their money back [1] ... I'm not buying
because I don't want a package and they seem to think I must want one.

[1] I think they haven't got their money back yet because they keep on
trying and a decade has passed.

--
Wm

[Wm]

On 12/09/2018 10:25, Martin Brown wrote:

>> Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone
>> leaflets in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they
>> are keen to get customers - any customers.
>
> Who can tell. Voodoo promotional ads have just been censured by the ASA.

Good spot

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/vodafone-ltd-a18-444291.html

but we should note that the ASA is (for ordinary reasons) a bit behind
and that the adverts we are getting might be different.

For the record, in an hour or so a week will have passed since I phoned
the demonic e-mail sender (one of) and no further offers have been
forthcoming.

I know some people here (notably JohnH) retain faith but I'm not going
to hold my breath for weeks at a time, I actually phoned someone, they
actually said stuff to me, no offer.

--
Wm

[Wm]

On 11/09/2018 14:20, Martin Brown wrote:

> If you are in one of the areas served by microwave links (and meet the
> strict line of sight criteria) you can get fast broadband for about the
> same as landline plus line rental. Several of my neighbours have ditched
> poxy old landlines at ~2Mbps tops for microwave and mobile phone only.

Unlikely, I am middle of London ish and not in a tower block, I do have
clear sight of Canary Wharf and some other buildings across the river in
winter (think leaves on trees) that probably have their own
communications infrastructure ... ponder ... internet connection as a
seasonal offering? :)

--
Wm

[Wm]

On 12/09/2018 09:50, Richard_CC wrote:

> On 11/09/2018 09:18, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 07/09/2018 21:18, John Hall wrote:
>>> In message <fvev06...@mid.individual.net>, Malcolm Loades
>>> <dev...@loades.net> writes
>>>> I thought all traffic would be via Vodafone's backbone except the
>>>> local BT to my home fibre/cable, rather than the Openreach backbone.
>>>> If this is correct then I'm asking if Vodafone's backbone is reliable?
>>>
>>> If that's the case, then it would rule them out for me, as according
>>> to SamKnows they don't have an LLU presence at my exchange.
>>
>> Outside of major towns and cities there is very little LLU in any of
>> the rural exchanges unless one of the directors of ISP live(s/d) nearby.
>>
> I wonder if there will be some differential pricing after the special
> offer period

What special offer period ?

As far as I can tell they're just trying to reduce the numbers they are
going to have to either

a) make an offer to
b) get rid of

I thought I was an (a) last week

>> and they will charge more where they don't have LLU.

I'm not sure it is playing out that way. I think the thinking might be,
"if we (vf) retain the customer we can get our money back later", i.e.
if they can keep a customer that pays a bit more the LLU issue is moot.

> Pricing can be used in 2 ways - one to make sure margins are the same in
> both cases, or you simply jack the price up so much you are
> uncompetitive and drive all the non LLU customers away.

Correction: Pricing can be used in *at least* 2 ways. Vodafone is a big
company, we should presume they know what they are doing.

> Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone leaflets
> in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they are keen to
> get customers - any customers.

I doubt Vodafone need customers in numeric terms considering the
diminished size of Demon rump.

--
Wm

[John Hall]

In message <pnd8hi$bc1$1...@dont-email.me>, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk>
writes

>Vodafone is a big company, we should presume they know what they are
>doing.

My impression is that the larger a company is the LESS likely it is to
know what it is doing.

[Chris B]

On 13/09/2018 09:08, Wm wrote:

> Where I am it seems that Virgin are *never* going to give up, they paid
> to dig up the street and lay their cable and they're going to keep on
> thrashing it until they get their money back [1] ... I'm not buying
> because I don't want a package and they seem to think I must want one.
>
> [1] I think they haven't got their money back yet because they keep on
> trying and a decade has passed.
>

Trust me its not just where you are. I live in a small town in the
South West. I and several of my neighbours (that I know of) get mail
shots from Virgin at least monthly (sometimes more often) telling us
that our street has cable and wouldn't we like to stop missing out.

At least nowadays they are kind enough to print on the rear "Contains
Marketing Material from Virgin Media", so it can go straight to the WPB
without the effort of opening it.


--
Chris B (News)

[Martin Brown]

On 13/09/2018 09:53, Wm wrote:
> On 12/09/2018 09:50, Richard_CC wrote:
>> On 11/09/2018 09:18, Martin Brown wrote:

>>> Outside of major towns and cities there is very little LLU in any of
>>> the rural exchanges unless one of the directors of ISP live(s/d) nearby.
>>>
>> I wonder if there will be some differential pricing after the special
>> offer period
>
> What special offer period ?
>
> As far as I can tell they're just trying to reduce the numbers they are
> going to have to either
>
> a) make an offer to
> b) get rid of
>
> I thought I was an (a) last week

I suggest you keep trying or if you want to stay on the best possible
commercial terms research the prices of their competitors and use the
threat of leaving for them as a lever. Plusnet 18 month deal was pretty
good as a decent service ultra low price when I last did this.

> >> and they will charge more where they don't have LLU.
>
> I'm not sure it is playing out that way.  I think the thinking might be,
> "if we (vf) retain the customer we can get our money back later", i.e.
> if they can keep a customer that pays a bit more the LLU issue is moot.

It is a sad fact of modern life that in sales organisations "trappers"
who bring in new business are more highly valued than "skinners" who
maximise revenue from the existing customers. The actions of skinners
are never in the best interests of customers no matter what their sales
patter script might say. That is why serial disloyalty to get the
introductory offers pays with supermarkets, utilities, phones and
insurance. Loyal customers invariably subsidise the disloyal ones!

>
>> Pricing can be used in 2 ways - one to make sure margins are the same
>> in both cases, or you simply jack the price up so much you are
>> uncompetitive and drive all the non LLU customers away.
>
> Correction: Pricing can be used in *at least* 2 ways.  Vodafone is a big
> company, we should presume they know what they are doing.

Vodaphone is a big company but that usually means that they have no idea
what they are doing away from the key parts that generate the most ROI.
Demon is a tiny backwater that they bought by accident in a bundle.

You could imagine it as a single brass nut found at the bottom of a tea
chest full of heavy copper pipes bought at auction.

>> Having said that, we don't have LLU locally and we get Vodafone
>> leaflets in our Monday junk mail at least once a month so maybe they
>> are keen to get customers - any customers.
>
> I doubt Vodafone need customers in numeric terms considering the
> diminished size of Demon rump.

They seem to be trying to grow their internet market share. I never
understood why they didn't make a play for Demon customers at the point
where they wanted to launch their broadband service. Demon testers had a
reputation for helping Demon shake down new hardware to reliable bug
free operation in short order back in the old days. That they didn't do
this tells you all you need to know about their intelligence.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Graeme Wall]

What a wonderful analogy!

[Graeme Wall]

Doh! I managed to cut the bit I was referring to:

You could imagine it as a single brass nut found at the bottom of a tea
chest full of heavy copper pipes bought at auction.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <pndajl$mkl$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk>
writes:
[]

>Trust me its not just where you are. I live in a small town in the
>South West. I and several of my neighbours (that I know of) get mail
>shots from Virgin at least monthly (sometimes more often) telling us
>that our street has cable and wouldn't we like to stop missing out.

Since I take it your "street" _doesn't_ have cable, and you have made
them aware of this fact at least once, can they not be convicted of
either harassment, littering, or both? (I believe deliverers of, e. g.,
pizza menus commit the crime of littering - only Royal Mail has the
right to deliver mail. Few if any successful prosecutions occur, of
course. IANAL.)

>
>At least nowadays they are kind enough to print on the rear "Contains
>Marketing Material from Virgin Media", so it can go straight to the WPB
>without the effort of opening it.
>
>

Recycling box surely?

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I admire you British: when things get tough, you reach for humour. Not
firearms. - Sigourney (Susan) Weaver, RT 2017/11/4-10

[Charles Ellson]

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 18:20:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:

>In message <pndajl$mkl$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk>
>writes:
>[]
>>Trust me its not just where you are. I live in a small town in the
>>South West. I and several of my neighbours (that I know of) get mail
>>shots from Virgin at least monthly (sometimes more often) telling us
>>that our street has cable and wouldn't we like to stop missing out.
>
>Since I take it your "street" _doesn't_ have cable, and you have made
>them aware of this fact at least once, can they not be convicted of
>either harassment, littering, or both? (I believe deliverers of, e. g.,
>pizza menus commit the crime of littering
>

Litter laws don't apply to your letter box. OTOH they are committing
trespass if they ignore appropriate signs but that is a civil not a
criminal matter.

>- only Royal Mail has the right to deliver mail.
>

You're a bit behind the times.

>Few if any successful prosecutions occur, of course. IANAL.)
>>

Precisely zero I would think.

>>At least nowadays they are kind enough to print on the rear "Contains
>>Marketing Material from Virgin Media", so it can go straight to the WPB
>>without the effort of opening it.
>>
>>
>Recycling box surely?
>

Not all councils have them. Some because they don't bother with
salvage or others because they have fancy sorting machinery to do the
work for you.

[Chris B]

On 13/09/2018 18:20, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <pndajl$mkl$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk> writes:
> []
>> Trust me its not just where you are.  I live in a small town in the
>> South West.  I and several of my neighbours (that I know of) get mail
>> shots from Virgin at least monthly (sometimes more often) telling us
>> that our street has cable and wouldn't we like to stop missing out.
>
> Since I take it your "street" _doesn't_ have cable,

No - It does indeed have cable - I just have no desire to give Virgin
vast amounts of cash. I was just commenting on the cash they are
prepared to spend to try to hook me and my immediate neighbours.

>>
>> At least nowadays they are kind enough to print on the rear "Contains
>> Marketing Material from Virgin Media", so it can go straight to the
>> WPB without the effort of opening it.
>>
>>
> Recycling box surely?

Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-). Does anyone know if you still
have to rip out the windows from window envelopes? I still usually do
out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.


--
Chris B (News)

[Andy]

In message <pngp5l$aqt$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk>
wrote
[]

>
>Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-). Does anyone know if you
>still have to rip out the windows from window envelopes? I still
>usually do out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.
>
>

It depends who your local council have a contract with. Simplest is to
rip. Or, see if their web site has details. When I am Ruler of the
Universe, all councils will have the same recycling rules, and use the
same colour of bins.
--
Andy Taylor [Editor & Treasurer, Austrian Philatelic Society].
Visit www dot austrianphilately dot com

[Jim Crowther]

In demon.service, on Fri, 14 Sep 2018 19:32:37, Andy wrote:

>In message <pngp5l$aqt$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk>
>wrote
>[]
>>
>>Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-). Does anyone know if you
>>still have to rip out the windows from window envelopes? I still
>>usually do out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.
>>
>>
>It depends who your local council have a contract with. Simplest is to
>rip. Or, see if their web site has details. When I am Ruler of the
>Universe, all councils will have the same recycling rules, and use the
>same colour of bins.

<rant>
And also (as they do here in California) allow anything that can be
recycled to go in the one huge bin. All sorted by hand, no Job-Seekers
Allowance here.

I know some councils in the UK do this, but mine in the UK
(Richmond-upon-Thames) does not. They are very fussy about what goes in
what bin, and won't take any of the contents if they spot one 'wrong'
item in there.
</rant>

Strangely I still subscribe to d.s. fifteen years after leaving Demon
for A&A - it's been interesting in a train-wreck sort of way. Waves at
Wm and other denizens!


--
Jim Crowther

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <XjgYOx5a...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, Jim

Crowther <Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes:
>In demon.service, on Fri, 14 Sep 2018 19:32:37, Andy wrote:
>
>>In message <pngp5l$aqt$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk>
>>wrote
>>[]
>>>
>>>Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-). Does anyone know if you
>>>still have to rip out the windows from window envelopes? I still
>>>usually do out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.
>>>
>>>
>>It depends who your local council have a contract with. Simplest is to
>>rip. Or, see if their web site has details. When I am Ruler of the
>>Universe, all councils will have the same recycling rules, and use the
>>same colour of bins.

And envelopes won't _have_ anything in the windows. What purpose does it
serve? We managed OK before they did ...

>
><rant>
>And also (as they do here in California) allow anything that can be
>recycled to go in the one huge bin. All sorted by hand, no Job-Seekers
>Allowance here.
>
>I know some councils in the UK do this, but mine in the UK
>(Richmond-upon-Thames) does not. They are very fussy about what goes
>in what bin, and won't take any of the contents if they spot one
>'wrong' item in there.
></rant>

Yes, mine (Ashford) won't take _shredded_ paper.

>
>Strangely I still subscribe to d.s. fifteen years after leaving Demon
>for A&A - it's been interesting in a train-wreck sort of way. Waves at
>Wm and other denizens!
>

I only fully escaped a few years ago (having dallied with the biscuit
company), but likewise stay. Mainly because I think of a lot of those
here as friends; partly because there's often useful information for
general use (or, occasionally, Turnpike-relevant, though DIST is usually
the first port of call there).

>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

They are public servants, so we will threat them rather as Flashman treats
servants. - Stephen Fry on some people's attitudo to the BBC, in Radio Times,
3-9 July 2010

[Wm]

On 14/09/2018 17:55, Chris B wrote:

> Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-).   Does anyone know if you still
> have to rip out the windows from window envelopes?  I still usually do
> out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.

I still separate them too most of the time but I expect since so few
people do it no one really cares volume considered.

Back in the mass marketing by snail mail days we used to employ
otherwise idle pensioners to cut the windows out of returned mail
envelopes as part of the sorting for next to no money, an example of the
gig economy from 20 or 30 years ago.

Fun fact: they were allowed to "collect" uncancelled stamps as a perk

--
Wm

[Wm]

On 14/09/2018 20:13, Jim Crowther wrote:
> In demon.service, on Fri, 14 Sep 2018 19:32:37, Andy wrote:
>
>> In message <pngp5l$aqt$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk> wrote
>> []
>>>
>>> Eventually certainly, but WPB first :-).   Does anyone know if you
>>> still have to rip out the windows from window envelopes?  I still
>>> usually do out of habit but I don't know if I still need to.
>>>
>>>
>> It depends who your local council have a contract with. Simplest is to
>> rip. Or, see if their web site has details. When I am Ruler of the
>> Universe, all councils will have the same recycling rules, and use the
>> same colour of bins.
>

> And also (as they do here in California)

rather west than east at the moment

> All sorted by hand, no Job-Seekers
> Allowance here.

some political views don't translate across the atlantic and the extra
chunk of land to the other coast, saying "no Job-Seekers Allowance"
isn't quite right, I mean, if you put a black or hispanic guy in jail he
works for free, right? why pay the unemployed when you can jail 'em and
make 'em work for nowt

> I know some councils in the UK do this, but mine in the UK
> (Richmond-upon-Thames) does not.  They are very fussy about what goes in
> what bin, and won't take any of the contents if they spot one 'wrong'
> item in there.

We have separate bins but they don't fuss too much (my borough has a
burn all it can eat facility which is good for dealing with the unsorted
and unusual).

> Strangely I still subscribe to d.s. fifteen years after leaving Demon
> for A&A - it's been interesting in a train-wreck sort of way.

I agree it is a mess but I'm not a victim yet and have had a rather good
run, I suspect part of that was that I was an early adopter of
technologies that were experimental at the time.

> Waves at Wm and other denizens!

Cheerful wave back on a pleasantly sunny early autumn afternoon in London.

--
Wm

[Soruk]

I'm pretty sure UK Broadband (ukbroadband.com) do a microwave wireless
internet service in London - certainly it may be worth checking to see
if you're in their 4G Relish coverage. You don't need a landline for
their services.

--
-- Michael "Soruk" McConnell Eridani Star System
MailStripper - http://www.MailStripper.eu/ - SMTP spam filter
Second Number - http://secondnumber.matrixnetwork.co.uk/
Matrix Dial: International Calls - http://www.matrixdial.co.uk/

[Wm]

On 17/09/2018 15:24, Soruk wrote:
> On 2018-09-13, Wm <wm_o...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/09/2018 14:20, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> If you are in one of the areas served by microwave links (and meet the
>>> strict line of sight criteria) you can get fast broadband for about the
>>> same as landline plus line rental. Several of my neighbours have ditched
>>> poxy old landlines at ~2Mbps tops for microwave and mobile phone only.
>>
>> Unlikely, I am middle of London ish and not in a tower block, I do have
>> clear sight of Canary Wharf and some other buildings across the river in
>> winter (think leaves on trees) that probably have their own
>> communications infrastructure ... ponder ... internet connection as a
>> seasonal offering? :)
>
> I'm pretty sure UK Broadband (ukbroadband.com) do a microwave wireless
> internet service in London - certainly it may be worth checking to see
> if you're in their 4G Relish coverage. You don't need a landline for
> their services.

Yikes! To my surprise I am in their coverage, I'd be guessing where the
wireless point will be.

Thanks for the heads up M & M [1]

https://www1.relish.net/ if anyone else is interested, looks like London
and Swindon only at the moment.

The interest is, in part, that this means that I don't need a land line
at all, the problem might be tht they think I'd get 20 Mbps and I've
sort of persuaded myself I need a bit more than that, or, will 20 be
fine if I am on a less contended bit of wire further up the food pyramid?

[1] Michael & Martin

--
Wm

[Richard_CC]

On 18/09/2018 08:33, Wm wrote:
>
> https://www1.relish.net/ if anyone else is interested, looks like London
> and Swindon only at the moment

My Daughter tried Relish about a year back, just got first job and flat
sharing with an aunt who had no broadband and no landline (and to whom
colour TV was a bit of a novelty). Victoria, in a bit when hardly
anyone is at home during the day but most are in the evening.

Good news was: quick service, router/receiver delivered promptly and
the set up was easy.

Bad news was: in her area it was "OK to good" early hours of morning but
terrible when it got busy later in the day. Unusably slow and sometimes
stop even for pretty standard text based web pages. Pity, it was the
perfect solution for her needs had it worked well.

Good news was: their phone support was helpful and after trying a few
things like moving receiver round the flat to try to point it at
different mast honest and admitted to capacity problems in that area,
their 14 day trial no hassle let you off the hook was just that, she had
to return router/receiver thingy I think via drop off at a DHL
collection point in a local shop but cancellation was as promised and no
irritating contract hassles.

So, well worth a try but do try thoroughly weekdays/weekends/early/late
during the 14 days to see if it does what you want in your location.