Volunteer Role Descriptions Redux

[Greg Nash]

Hi folks. I'm not one to be discouraged easily so lets try again. For those who cant be bothered with the previous thread one heres the TLDR summary of relevant points.. apologies to those who contributed for any over simplification.

I proposed we may get better outcomes for the space if we restructured the comittee to better suit the typical jobs required to run the space. E.g. a social and fundraising officer whose scope of responsibility would be limited to running all social events and fundraising efforts.

Stuart gave a bunch of examples of who has been performing these roles to date and suggested that it would be wasted effort to restructure the committee itself due to the red tape involved, instead it was already provisioned for in the documentation under rules for delegation and subcommittees.

Geoff made a point that role descriptions should include an estimate of the amount of time these positions take so that volunteers are aware of the commitment.

Thats basically the crux of it so far as far as i understand it.

Obviously the previous thread spent too much time concerned with what has gone before... i would like to discuss ideas for what could be done along these lines to get the best outcome without necessarily referencing any past members or issues.

I still think some of these roles could be electable since they would make a significant contribution but i concede the point on red tape and that it can be done without a restructure for now... lerhaps a trial?? I suppose the primary goal would be to enable members who contribute to know what they are up for before they commit and the more small, well defined roles available the more likely we can convince someone to take them on.

Cheerz
Greg

[Tim Eastwood]

I say go for it, additional ways for members to help out the club can only be a good thing. no harm in trying

Tim

[Geoff]

On Friday, 2 October 2015 13:41:49 UTC+10, Greg Nash wrote:

Geoff made a point that role descriptions should include an estimate of the amount of time these positions take so that volunteers are aware of the commitment.

Thats basically the crux of it so far as far as i understand it.

Thank you Greg, that is it:-)  

[Roboticist Mark]

Excellent Summary Greg,

I agree that getting a bunch of (time poor, highly skilled, motivated) people to put in some extra effort at CCHS requires a few things:

• Acknowledgement
• recognising that what we are currently doing with non-committee CCHS roles is not working effectively
  
• Direction
• a plan of what we want to do about it, be it new rules, or new titles/roles, new communication tools, or anything else
  
• Agreement 
• a vote at the CCHS AGM on what we do about it (not all the details of how, just the what)
  
• Validation
• a time point in the future where we check back in and see if what we have changed is working better or worse

Ongoing requirements as I see them:

• Communication
• clearer communication of what is being done, and by whom
  
• I'm not talking about who updates the WP-addons here, but, for example, I had no idea that Nemo was writing grant applications, which I see as critical to maintaining a working space. I have skills which can assist here, but I had no idea they were required.
• Maybe a monthly email update, or a quarterly report, or whatever.
  
• Recognition
• everyone wants to be recognised for the job they are doing, even if is not a "Gazetted" position in the org.
  
• this needs to come from both from the Committee and
  
• from other Members ... (which is where this list seem to be most touchy at the moment)
  
• Reward
  
• sometimes the task is it's own reward, especially in voluenteer club environment
  
• is there another way we can reward people who go above and beyond?
  

My personal opinion is: we do not need to change the Elected Committee roles. As Stuart outlined, the bones are sufficiently strong in both a legal and organisational responsibilities sense (even if the ROA are a bit wordy and legalese for my liking)

We just need organisational change in how people who "put their hands up" for things are treated.

I have seen several other not-for-profit groups, who have people, like Greg, show up, ask for change, and then get howled down by the old guard saying "we have already been through these issues" only to have the same problems next year.

opening up the floor to members at the end of the AGM and saying with a blank look "if anyone wants to step up and help, now is a good time" is not sufficient.

you need to say "we need help in opening the doors at x time on y days, can anyone do it for the next 6 months?" (define the problem and offer a solution)

and you also need to ask "does anyone have any ideas about how we can do things better ?" (people will assist where their passion lies)

Special thanks to the Committee for this year's Hacking and truly I do appreciate all the work that goes into running a space. I look forward to whoever is elected next year being open to acknowledging and tackling this universal issue

Cheers,

Mark

On Friday, 2 October 2015 13:41:49 UTC+10, Greg Nash wrote:

[Stuart Young]

On 5 October 2015 at 12:09, Roboticist Mark <mrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree that getting a bunch of (time poor, highly skilled, motivated) people to put in some extra effort at CCHS requires a few things:

• Acknowledgement
• recognising that what we are currently doing with non-committee CCHS roles is not working effectively
  
• Direction
• a plan of what we want to do about it, be it new rules, or new titles/roles, new communication tools, or anything else
  
• Agreement 
• a vote at the CCHS AGM on what we do about it (not all the details of how, just the what)
  
• Validation
• a time point in the future where we check back in and see if what we have changed is working better or worse

Agreed. The way things have worked so far have been mainly from needs being met by the people seeing them, by offers of help to, or the odd request from the Ctte.

 

Ongoing requirements as I see them:

• Communication
• clearer communication of what is being done, and by whom
  
• I'm not talking about who updates the WP-addons here, but, for example, I had no idea that Nemo was writing grant applications, which I see as critical to maintaining a working space. I have skills which can assist here, but I had no idea they were required.
• Maybe a monthly email update, or a quarterly report, or whatever.
  

Some of these roles may need to be on s9imple "when this happen" reporting updates, etc. example: I email the Ctte when where are important updates for the website (eg: WP updates that fix urgent issues, etc).

 

• Recognition
• everyone wants to be recognised for the job they are doing, even if is not a "Gazetted" position in the org.
  
• this needs to come from both from the Committee and
  
• from other Members ... (which is where this list seem to be most touchy at the moment)
  

A lot of this should be on the website. I can happily create a page on the website for acknowledgement of such roles, and even link elsewhere for details of the actual roles (same for even the Ctte roles if needed).

FWIW: There used to be 2 extra roles listed on the http://www.hackmelbourne.org/about-cchs/administration/ that were helpers (I was one) but they have since vanished during updates by others to the website.

• Reward
  
• sometimes the task is it's own reward, especially in voluenteer club environment
  
• is there another way we can reward people who go above and beyond?
  

Acknowledging them is a good start. :D
 

My personal opinion is: we do not need to change the Elected Committee roles. As Stuart outlined, the bones are sufficiently strong in both a legal and organisational responsibilities sense (even if the ROA are a bit wordy and legalese for my liking)

Yeah. unfortunately if they're not worded like that, then the Govt won't pass it as valid.

 

you need to say "we need help in opening the doors at x time on y days, can anyone do it for the next 6 months?" (define the problem and offer a solution)

FWIW: That is definitely something that CCHS needs help with, especially for Saturday mornings (which we're only opening when people are available).

Duty officers (the people who can open up, etc) are ALWAYS welcome. This is something that is already reasonably formalised (though it does need a bit of documentation IMO), so we mainly need bodies that are interested.

FYI: In case people think this isn't known well, that's because for the last 3 (or so) weeks we've been trying to organise this out of the Duty Officers, so it's only been mentioned on the Ctte list, the Duty Officer list, and to a few people who'd stepped up to open who weren't yet on the Duty Officer list. If no one else posts about this, I'll follow up soon with a dedicated email asking for people to help. Especially after the exposure we've just had on Bespoke, Saturday mornings are becoming even more important than normal.

--

Stuart Young (aka Cefiar)

[Greg Nash]

Hi folks,

Mark, your post is spot on to my way of thinking, thanks for the contribution.

Stuart your examples are helping me form stronger view of what issues these roles need to solve so thanks to you too.

So I think my first mission is to produce role descriptions in a format that is easy to digest for potential volunteers and leaves no ambiguity about the role. I will post role format suggestions soon for discussion.

Another thought I have following on from Marks post about recognition... I'd like to pose a question for everyone: do we having polling?

The question is "In your opinion should CCHS volunteers whose role is difficult to fill but whose contribution is significant receive discounted memberships?"

I suppose the example being the person who cleans the toilet... or organises duty managers successfully.. or whatever we decide is significant.

Also I'll be at the space on Tuesday night as usual if you want have a chat with me about this idea.

Cheerz
Greg

[Rob Gannon]

Just to clarify, changing any committee roles would either require a vote by the committee in some cases or a change to the ROA in others which would require a 'Special Resolution' at a meeting of the association. A Special Resolution requires that 21 days notice is given to members, so considering the AGM is 15 days away, there will not be any voting on any issues at the AGM other than what the members have already been notified about. The current committee will not be meeting again, so any committee decision will be made by the new committee, who ever that will be, some time after the AGM.

Also, there are currently 35 members. We require around 50 to cover our costs. 

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[Roboticist Mark]

On Monday, 5 October 2015 14:41:13 UTC+11, Greg Nash wrote:

Hi folks,

Mark, your post is spot on to my way of thinking, thanks for the contribution.

 ...

The question is "In your opinion should CCHS volunteers whose role is difficult to fill but whose contribution is significant receive discounted memberships?"

...

Greg

That is pretty much where I was headed with my thoughts also, however (to put words into the treasurer's mouth) I don't think that the org is in a position to reduce income at this stage, especially not from full fee members which we have so few of, but also who contribute a large amount.

 i.e. the people who pay the most already, probably also put in the most time in, and also already get the most benefits out.

 I was thinking more along the lines of partner discounts or other friendly orgs providing the "benefits" in whatever form they take.

 Mark

[Roboticist Mark]

No offence Rob,

but that is exactly the kind of response that i was highlighting, and I don't believe it is helpful.

if the members want to table something at the AGM, (which at this stage does not require a change to the ROA) only a promise of "action in future" by the next committee then I think the current committee can squeeze it into their agenda for the evening don't you ?

can you please provide a link to all information:  "the members have already been notified about"

 i.e. the returning officer has not notified members who is running for positions yet, so I can't make an informed vote on the night

All I see in terms of Agenda is :

•    Confirmation of Minutes for previous AGM 2014
•    Annual Report from the Committee
•    Annual Report from the Treasurer
•    Elect the new committee for the 2015 - 2016 year

can you please show where, and in what format of writing these items have been available to me a member since 29/09/2015 in accordance with your rules ?

Mark

[Andy Gelme]

hi Everyone,

Super quick response ...

On 2015-10-5 15:46 , Roboticist Mark wrote:
> but that is exactly the kind of response that i was highlighting, and
> I don't believe it is helpful.

Let's cut the current committee some slack please !

Basically suggesting that RobG's reply is "not helpful" ... is reading
too much into his reply, i.e that he is deliberately blocking your desires.

Let us assume that all RobG was trying to do was provide some basic RoA
and AGM meeting feedback ... and that his reply is an *initial
indication* (and not the final word) on what the current committee can
or will do.

Generally speaking ... the current committee is willing to do anything
reasonable and sensible within the given constraints / parameters (RoA,
existing policy, available time, available resources, those who will
back-up talk with action, etc).

We do listen. We are listening. And, if there good consensus on what
to do (at a meeting or whenever) ... then if possible, then we'll
encourage and empower members to do it.

Right now, the committee is really focusing on running a good, positive
AGM ... attracting great nominations ... and enabling a keen new
committee with a fresh agenda / energy to proceed.

One of the main things we've learned this last year is that it is
unbelievably easy to run someone down without meaning to do so (and even
easier when there is intent). So, forgive me if I appear to be overly
sensitive to that problem at the moment ... leading up to the AGM. It
really hurt us last AGM and all the way up to now.

- - - - - - -

Personally, I've got a bunch to say (fundamentally in agreement), but ...

1) I'm dealing with some typical AGM b...s... at this very moment (I
really appreciate it ...NOT !)

... and ...

2) A great discussion is already rolling along ... which is awesome

Keep it nice and re-read / re-consider before hitting [Send] ... thanks !

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[Roboticist Mark]

Hi Andy,

I do appreciate the amount of work that goes into the org and also the AGM, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone who is putting in their time for free.

agree that I might be reading into what Rob said, however,

"there will not be any voting on any issues at the AGM other than what the members have already been notified about"

is pretty clear cut to me coming from the VP. Greg is trying to open up a conversation, Rob wants to shut it down.

there needs to be space for members to discuss making changes without offending the people who are trying their best,

my description of "not helpful" was as nice as I can muster

Mark

[Rob Gannon]

Mark,

Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm not offering an opinion on this subject. If you want to discuss it that's great, go ahead, get enthusiastic. That's what we need. I'm simply letting people know about the rules and procedures of the AGM so there is no confusion. I just wanted to make sure that everyone understood that issues cant just be raised and voted on on the night. There is a process to go through. I don't want people to be disappointed on the night. We all want the AGM to go smoothly.

Also, this committee can't make promises for the new committee. At the start of the AGM all of the committee roles will be declared vacant. At that point there will be no committee. The returning officer, Nemo, will then be in charge of the CCHS until the new committee is elected.  Only after the new committee has been elected can they make any promises if they choose to. 

If and when individuals nominate themselves for election to the committee, they may choose to make promises to the members. So far, I have not nominated for election to the new committee.

The new committee will be elected to run the CCHS in the way they think is best. If something that they think is in the best interest of the CCHS doesn't require ROA changes then they can just do it. They don't need a vote at an AGM or SGM. If you think the CCHS needs to change and are prepared to go to the effort yourself then you should nominate yourself for committee. 

As far as you other questions about the agenda

• the agenda items listed are the only agenda items
  
• no one has nominated for election to the committee yet
• any member can nominate for election to any position on the night of the AGM

Any more details John or Nemo might be able to help.

 

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[Andy Gelme]

hi Mark,

On 2015-10-5 17:00 , Roboticist Mark wrote:
> there needs to be space for members to discuss making changes

Here is a suggestion (in addition to anything else good that members are
considering) ...

If anyone would like to organize the members to meet informally, let's
say 2015-10-20 at 6:30 pm to 7:30 pm at 5 Kent Lane, to have a focused
member-run discussion on how to improve the space and reasonable
suggestions for the in-coming committee to consider ... then, I'd be
happy to support that.

There is nothing stopping members from saying, "hey, let's get together
informally at this time / place and discuss these topics". Of course,
nothing official could be committed to (at that time), but the timing
would be such that the next committee would be very likely to be there
... and should take notice.

I'd further suggest that ...

1) Discussing and weeding out the good from the not-so-good discussion
points should occur via email beforehand. Effectively creating a
discussion agenda to keep things on-track and on-time.

2) This should NOT a negative forum for complaints against individuals
or groups of individuals or bad-mouthing anyone or anything. The focus
should be on reasonable goals / improvements (not purely
sudo-make-me-a-larger-hackerspace, but let's get into realistic detail)
... and actual commitments by CCHS members to achieving those goals /
improvements (turning talk into action).

3) The CCHS committee should always be about enabling / empowering the
members to do good things ... and that you don't need to be on the
committee to actually do those good things.

[Greg Nash]

So far so good, we haven't been locked :)

I am encouraged by Andy's response:

"We do listen.  We are listening.  And, if there good consensus on what
to do (at a meeting or whenever) ... then if possible, then we'll
encourage and empower members to do it. "

I think we can agree that this is all we can ask for as members.

Just to clarify I'm not proposing any formal vote, coop, uprising etc at the AGM, the current committee have some great people aboard and we need to include the opinion of everyone. If we can make time for a brief chat around volunteer roles then I think so far we have established it is a probably worthy topic, has many potential benefits for the space (since it may encourage volunteerism) and in my opinion the AGM would be a good forum to do it since its reasonable to assume that most semi engaged members (aka. prospective volunteers) would attend therefore I am happy to introduce the topic and chair the discussion, no biggie if we cant get it in, we can continue to flame each other on the forums/in person until the opportunity presents itself for the members to discuss it.

So now may I drag you all back to the topic at hand!

I'm going to make an attempt at a volunteer role description, so the idea here is that this summary would be presented (sold) to potential volunteers as a way they can help the space, the commitment would be limited to only what is listed here and there would be no further expectations on that member unless they volunteered for another role. 

NOTE: this is an example... I am not suggesting this is a role that should exist nor that any of these tasks exist, just a sample of how it could be structured.

====================================

EXAMPLE Role Name: Facilities Officer

Role Mandate: Responsible for the general upkeep of Hacker Space facilities, general (non mechanical) maintenance, space cleanliness, space working bees. 

Length: The Committee will perform a mandatory review and appointment of this role every 12 Months within 2 months of the AGM

Position Type: Volunteer Officer - The Committee may re-assign this position at any time with no vote necessary.. as per section blah blah of the blah ROA blah.

Reports To: Committee

Reporting Period - Attends a committee meeting once every three months (quarterly) to discuss facilities progress, may be called in for special requests

Committee Voting Rights - No general voting rights, may vote with 2 x vote weight on facilities related matters.

Specific Tasks:

Task 1: Clean Hacker Space (1 per month)

• Benches and working areas
• Tool spaces
• Soldering Bench
• 3d print area
• Toilets and Sink
• Food and Drinks
• Back room

Task 2: Maintain Food and Drink Area (1 per month)

• Refill Fridge from Stock
• Refill Snacks Stock

Task 3: Manage space working bee (2 per year -  Shared with Social and Fundraising Manager)

• Work with committee to identify working bee tasks
• Assist with Working bee comms
• Manage working bee volunteers on the day
• Run working bee BBQ

Task 4: Manage Member Boxes (1 per month)

• Identify unused boxes
• communicate with members and arrange boxes as necessary
• assist with contacting members about unused boxes. 

Task 5: Manage Lost Property (1 per month)

• Maintain lost property as required.

Task 6: Member Support - Facilities (on-going)

• Provide support, answer questions regarding maintenance of the facilities - via contact email: facilitator_...@hackmelbourne.org
• Bring member concerns related to facilities to the committee for discussion and vote.

Volunteer Benefits:

All access card - Receives unrestricted access to all hackerspace facilities

Optional double vote on facilities related matters at the committee

50% Membership Discount for that year

Current Incumbent: Position Vacant 

Contact email: facilitator_...@hackmelbourne.org

Backup Responsibility: Maintenance Officer - If the role is vacant this person will be asked to perform this role.

Committee Responsibility: Vice President - If no volunteers are available this person is responsible for finding a volunteer or may do the job themselves.

===============================================

Anyway, this is sort of what I am thinking, note the clarity of time commitment, tasks, reporting duties, benefits and associated persons - repeat: Example Only.

Cheerz

Greg

 

[Stuart Young]

Can I recommend that the work on fleshing out positions and the like get put onto the wiki so that it can be reviewed in a more friendly manner?

The idea being that it's all in one place, rather than spread over lots and lots of emails/Groups posts.

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[Darren Freeman]

On Mon, 2015-10-05 at 17:52 +1100, Andy Gelme wrote:
> There is nothing stopping members from saying, "hey, let's get together
> informally at this time / place and discuss these topics". Of course,

It can be daunting for an individual to try to organise for the whole
group to attend something like this. The fact that the AGM is something
that people make an effort to attend, makes it an attractive time to
have discussions.

If you ask that members organise additional meetings in order to raise
issues that they feel are important, it creates a power imbalance where
the existing committee has greater access to organise meetings and
canvas topics for discussion. Ordinary members are largely not going to
feel empowered to do this.

I have met a few people in the space who experience social anxiety, so
for them, the access issue is even more significant. Having a forum
where people are encouraged to pitch ideas at the last minute would,
IMHO, create a greater level of inclusion than an AGM where people are
basically told what is and isn't allowed to be discussed.

I'm not disagreeing with whatever the ROA say.. just pointing out that
CCHS is pretty easy going at other times, so is it really necessary to
be so strict here? What's the harm in talking, if there is no
expectation of voting on it?

> nothing official could be committed to (at that time), but the timing

I don't think that was what was being proposed. I think there could be
an informal meeting before the official AGM starts. Just push back the
time for the official part of the meeting.

It may well transpire that people who didn't feel up to nominating,
might feel like doing so as a result of the discussion, and the various
ideas, and maybe they want to champion one of them on the new committee.
By simply having everyone thrown into an election, none of that can
happen.

> 1) Discussing and weeding out the good from the not-so-good discussion
> points should occur via email beforehand. Effectively creating a
> discussion agenda to keep things on-track and on-time.

That is obviously a good suggestion.

However as has been explained to me a few times, (and I'll admit I don't
always listen,) there are topics that people would rather not have on
the mailing list. If that's the case, then a meeting with a reasonably
large attendance is the obvious other way to raise the topic if the
objective is to keep it positive and civil.

> 3) The CCHS committee should always be about enabling / empowering the
> members to do good things ... and that you don't need to be on the
> committee to actually do those good things.

The main problem that I had with the committee from two years ago, is
that advice was given verbally by one member, but it then conflicted
with advice given by another member, or perhaps with what some people
thought was common knowledge but others didn't.

When I proposed the simple measure of putting things in writing, the
committee chose not to do so. Excuses were given instead.

This latest topic that has been raised, it seems to me that it's another
attempt to solve that. Putting expectations in writing - here is your
job, we the committee officially grant you these privileges, and you
accept these responsibilities. Other members know about this arrangement
too, so you can exercise your privileges without people getting upset or
thinking there is favouritism because they don't know about the
arrangement.

I think this is a reasonable thing to propose, and I recommend doing it.

Darren

[Greg Nash]

I have created a wiki page for volunteer positions using my example

This is version 0.001, usual disclaimer about it being just an idea, not trying to circumvent any rules blah de blah.

http://www.hackmelbourne.org/wiki/doc:volunteer_positions

I've got a bunch of ideas for positions which would support a whole range of time commitments (from very casual to somewhat frequent), some reasonable, some not so reasonable, I'll post them all up there as I go... it would be great if I could get a poll or like/dislike button or something... otherwise share your thoughts here or maybe add a comment to the wiki or something.

P.S. hopefully that page is located in the right spot.. let me know if not.

Cheers

Greg

[Tim Eastwood]

most of this thread is pretty TL;DR but I'd volunteer myself for the role outlined here: http://www.hackmelbourne.org/wiki/doc:volunteer_positions gettin' stuff done is what i do and cleanin' is ezy pezy.

Might I suggest the membership discount be dropped from the role description - it should be rewarding to volunteer for the club but not to the detriment of the club, IMO.

[Greg Nash]

Hi Tim,

yeah its definitely getting TLDR... and there's a lot of water to go under the bridge before we can get consensus on the myriad of possible roles :(

BUT

I'm loving that you would volunteer for that role... that's exactly the kind of response I am hoping to get.

Also I agree with the comment regarding membership discounts except in the instant where there's something we think is crucial to the success of the space and we simply cannot get anyone to do it... I put it in as a  benefit since I was struggling to come up with examples, hmm.. how about a cool custom 3d printed badge saying facilities officer?

Anyway thanks for the contribution.

Cheers

Greg

[Roboticist Mark]

Hi Greg,

On Tuesday, 6 October 2015 00:20:06 UTC+11, Tim Eastwood wrote:

Might I suggest the membership discount be dropped from the role description

ditto this, my thoughts also, this is a bridge too far at this stage

 My previous experience tells me that by making the description of the job itself TLDR then you discourage people from saying yes to it, might be better if we work together on the wiki to trim it down to the bare essentials

Cheers

Mark

[Rob Gannon]

Is everyone aware that there is already a role description for the role of 'Duty Officer'? Its not on the wiki or the website that I can see. (Maybe someone with the appropriate access can put it there). Some of the main responsibilities of the duty officer are:

• open the space for their nominated session
• greet visitors
• take visitors on a tour of the space
• ensure the safety of everyone at the space
• collect casual fees
• restock the drinks and snacks from supplies bellow
• ensure that she space is left tidy at the end of the session.

There is also a document that lists what should be done when giving visitors the tour. There is a list of Duty Officers with contact details that can also be used for rostering. There is also a mailing list so that the Duty Officers can communicate about what has been done and what needs to be done.

I consider this to be a very important role as without this the space doesn't get opened for sessions, and then there is no time when visitors can come down. We have seen this issue of not having a duty officer to open the space more and more lately, to the point where there is no session that is open to the public that is being run on a reliable basis. Visitors have been arriving at the session start time to a closed roller door.

There used to be plenty of people on the roster, but they have been slowly dwindling over time, and not being replaced.

This issue has been on the committee's agenda for the last year, with little headway being made for various reasons. I would expect that this will stay on the agenda for the new committee until we at least have the space being opened at every advertised session.

We need voluteers to run sessions on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday nights, plus Saturday morning and afternoon. Ideally a Duty Officer and a backup, so at least 10 volunteers. More if some of those volunteers can't make every week due to other commitments.

Can I suggest that if roles are being defined and filled, the place to start is the Duty Officer role, with the next role being a 'Duty Officer Coordinator/Team Leader' that can make sure there is a Duty Officer available at every session.

Having a strong group of Duty Officers would go a long way to solving the existing problems, and what further roles are still needed could then be looked at.

If some sort of reward or compensation for the duty officer is what is needed, I suggest reserved parking and free drinks while they are on duty. Maybe priority access to the laser cutter or other tool of choice at the next session.

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[Greg Nash]

Agreed Mark, Im doing my bestbto make these descriptions digestable but its difficult to trim and maintain clarity especially given member's proclivity to quoting the rule book. I think maybe we could have a summary with just tge important stuff and detail for those who wish to argue the toss.

Rob, yeah I think I'll do those two next since duty managers are a known quantity and an existing issue. If anyone can track down the current PD for duty managers shoot it over to me and ill convert to this format... ill make it up with what I know until then.