[Computer-go] Breakthrough: FineArt beating Ke Jie with 2 Handicap Stones
"Ingo Althöfer"
it seems that Chinese company Tencent with their
Go project FineArt has achieved a fantastic breakthrough:
According to the website of the International Go Federation
the new version of FineArt has played 34 handicap games
against pro players, winning 30 of the games. Special
achievement: One of the human opponents was human superstar
Ke Jie (9p). He resigned his game after 77 moves.
Ingo.
PS. Perhaps Tencent is willing to give Deepmind a match on equal
terms (between FineArt and AlphaGo), when AlphaGo also has
beaten Ke Jie (or some other top player) with handicap stones.
PS-2. It might be interesting to see if a team FineArt/DeepZen/AlphaGo
would beat a top human trio (like KeJie/LeeSedol/Iyama) in "RenGo",
giving handicap.
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Michael Alford
"Ingo Althöfer"
http://www.dgob.de/yabbse/index.php?topic=6728.msg215694#msg215694
His text roughly translated to English:
> I downloaded FineArt free 2 stone games.
> At least the game of Ke Jies is included.
> Perhaps this is (essentially) the collection.
> You have to rename the downloaded file to new ending .zip
Hope this helps, Ingo.
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Januar 2018 um 05:49 Uhr
> Von: "Michael Alford" <ma...@aracnet.com>
> An: compu...@computer-go.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] Breakthrough: FineArt beating Ke Jie with 2 Handicap Stones
>
> Could someone make sgf's of these games available?
Jim O'Flaherty
Michael Alford
This is the problem we had with the link to the IGF article. The sense we made of the statement attributed to Ke Jie was he can't give FineArt h2 because it is as strong as he is. Thanks, Ingo, for the iink to the forum. I have the games and will share them.
Michael
Hideki Kato
(1) add CA[utf-8] and
(2) divide the value of KM[] by 100, ie, change from KM[650]
to KM[6.5].
Hideki
Ingo Althofer: <trinity-b395fe14-84ed-439e-bad8-51bcc5c4657f-1516520823075@3c-app-gmx-bs75>:
--
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
Jim O'Flaherty
"Ingo Althöfer"
Top computer programs are giving handicap to
(top) professional players!
"We" had the intention to have a handicap setting
with DeepZen against a Japanese Pro in the European
Go Congress in July/August 2018, but the Japanese
organisation of Professional Go Players did not allow it.
Now, the Chinese Go scene simply has created facts.
Ingo.
Steven Clark
Jim O'Flaherty
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Hideki Kato
young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
#On even games (more than 2000), its recent winrate is about
98%.
Hideki
Ingo Althofer: <trinity-475deaf6-c186-45dc-a589-2142fb59e928-1516554279098@3c-app-gmx-bs32>:
>(top) professional players!
>
>
>
>Ingo.
>
>Ke Jie or FineArt?
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Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
"Ingo Althöfer"
thanks for your posting.
> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
Very interesting information, and congratulations
to Zen's performance.
* Do you remember when Zen started to give handicaps
against pro players?
* Is that the "normal" Zen version, or one that is
specially tuned for handicap games?
> #On even games (more than 2000), its recent winrate is about
> 98%.
Having this in mind, it makes indeed sense that
Zen gives handicap stones.
Ingo.
PS. When will AlphaGo start giving handicaps against pro players?
Stefan Kaitschick
Hideki Kato
Ingo Althofer: <trinity-e14c760c-96ce-457d-bbee-b42e6ccf3312-1516568318166@3c-app-gmx-bs35>:
>Hi Hideki,
>
>thanks for your posting.
>
>> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
>> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
>> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
>
>Very interesting information, and congratulations
>to Zen's performance.
Thanks.
>* Do you remember when Zen started to give handicaps
>against pro players?
Early December or late November, I remember but due to an
accident. HC games were prohibited but a young
professional could play due to a bug (:-) of the server.
After that, the manager changed the mind.
>* Is that the "normal" Zen version, or one that is
>specially tuned for handicap games?
Not special.
>> #On even games (more than 2000), its recent winrate is about
>> 98%.
>
>Having this in mind, it makes indeed sense that
>Zen gives handicap stones.
A professional (director of Japanese national team) told me
that two hc games are more interesting and exciting to watch
because Zen plays seriously :).
BTW, the games between Zen and professionals can be watched
any payed members of Nihonkiin.
Hideki
>Ingo.
>
>PS. When will AlphaGo start giving handicaps against pro players?
In this year, I hope.
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>Computer-go mailing list
>Compu...@computer-go.org
>http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
--
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
"Ingo Althöfer"
> >> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
> >> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
> >> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
>
> ...
>
> Early December or late November, I remember but due to an
> accident. HC games were prohibited but a young
> professional could play due to a bug (:-) of the server.
> After that, the manager changed the mind.
Sometimes, little errors in reality forces decisions ;-)
[We had it in Germany back on November 9, 1989, when Guenther
Schabowski was asked when the new travel reguations
for Eastern German citizens would become effective. He did
not know, stuttered around for some moment and then said:
"as far as I know, it will be effective from today on" -
and the wall was down.)
> A professional (director of Japanese national team) told me
> that two hc games are more interesting and exciting to watch
> because Zen plays seriously :).
Wow.
> BTW, the games between Zen and professionals can be watched
> any payed members of Nihonkiin.
Thanks for that information.
Does the server has the opportunity for English interface?
Best regards, Ingo.
Hideki Kato
Ingo Althofer: <trinity-807596eb-8cb2-4db4-a450-9ac02cc7a1be-1516597193617@3c-app-gmx-bs66>:
>Dear Hideki,
>
>> >> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
>> >> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
>> >> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Early December or late November, I remember but due to an
>> accident. HC games were prohibited but a young
>> professional could play due to a bug (:-) of the server.
>> After that, the manager changed the mind.
>
>Sometimes, little errors in reality forces decisions ;-)
>
>[We had it in Germany back on November 9, 1989, when Guenther
>Schabowski was asked when the new travel reguations
>for Eastern German citizens would become effective. He did
>not know, stuttered around for some moment and then said:
>"as far as I know, it will be effective from today on" -
>and the wall was down.)
Wow, what a historically big error!
>> A professional (director of Japanese national team) told me
>> that two hc games are more interesting and exciting to watch
>> because Zen plays seriously :).
>
>Wow.
>
>> BTW, the games between Zen and professionals can be watched
>> any payed members of Nihonkiin.
>
>Thanks for that information.
>Does the server has the opportunity for English
>interface?
Hmmm, not now but I'll ask the manager later.
Hideki
--
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
Hideki Kato
>> any payed members of Nihonkiin.
>
>Thanks for that information.
>Does the server has the opportunity for English interface?
My friend told me that perhaps WBaduk client provides
English interface for Yugen-no-Ma (except from Japan, Korea
or China).
http://www.wbaduk.com/
Register (free), download installer, and install the client
"WBaduk." Then run WBaduk (on desktop by default) and
choose Japanese server, although I didn't confirm.
Hope this helps,
Hideki
--
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
"Ingo Althöfer"
>>> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
>>> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
>>> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
>
>>* Is that the "normal" Zen version, or one that is
>>specially tuned for handicap games?
>
> Not special.
So, were the handicap games played at "normal" komi values
(6,5 or 7,5 points) ?
Regards, Ingo.
Hideki Kato
>Dear Hideki,
>
>>>> On Yugen-no-ma, Nihonkiin's online Go site, many (mainly
>>>> young) professionals have played more than 200 two-hc games
>>>> against Zen and its winrate is greater than 70%, AFICR.
>>
>>>* Is that the "normal" Zen version, or one that is
>>>specially tuned for handicap games?
>>
>> Not special.
>
>So, were the handicap games played at "normal" komi values
>(6,5 or 7,5 points) ?
No, but "standard" 0.5 pts. Zen supports very wide range of
komi; about -20 to +30 (mainly for the users of
Tencho-no-Igo).
Hideki
--
Hideki Kato <mailto:hideki...@ybb.ne.jp>
"Ingo Althöfer"
> >So, were the handicap games played at "normal" komi values
> >(6,5 or 7,5 points) ?
>
> No, but "standard" 0.5 pts. Zen supports very wide range of
> komi; about -20 to +30 (mainly for the users of
> Tencho-no-Igo).
that is very interesting information.
In particular, because from the sgf of FineArt's handicap
games I read that they had komi=7.5 (opr 6.5) in "all"
their handicap games.
My impression was they needed this exact komi
value to "please" their neural net.
Ingo.
Erik van der Werf
"Ingo Althöfer"
Tom Simonite, who is writing for WIRED, seems to be
following our list. At least he contacted me after
my posting from Saturday, and included my statements
in an article:
https://www.wired.com/story/tencent-software-beats-go-champ-showing-chinas-ai-gains/
One small correction: I am NOT a go expert (indeed my rank,
mostly inactive, is about 18-kyu); but I feel more competent
on computer go questions ;-)
Ingo.
> Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Januar 2018 um 07:50 Uhr
> Von: "Ingo Althöfer" <3-Hirn...@gmx.de>
> [Computer-go] Breakthrough: FineArt beating Ke Jie with 2 Handicap Stones
>
> Hello in the round,
>
> it seems that Chinese company Tencent with their
> Go project FineArt has achieved a fantastic breakthrough: ...
"Ingo Althöfer"
Ke Jie did play a second handicap game against Fine Art
and won convincingly (in 72 moves).
There is a translation of an interview given by him
at reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/7suord/on_ke_jies_2_handicap_games/?st=jcuhzf2y&sh=f5737baa
Most of all I like Ke Jie's words in the final paragraph:
> In the face of AI, what is pride?
> Can you eat it?
>
> All I know is that I love Go.
> I am passionate about Go.
Ingo.