Is writing a resume in LaTeX a good way to get started?

[Bob Hanson]

Hi TeXers,

I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.

For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.

It hasn't happened often but I do remember a few times over many years that
I lost important documents because of corruption (by the software, not file
corruption) or format changes that weren't upward compatible. Open Office is
good but not without bugs. I have run into one severe one that cost me a
spreadsheet I needed.

I would be interested in any comments about this kind of thing, whether a
resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX, etc. I would also like to know what
other advantages there are in LaTeX vis a vis the wysiwyg type of setup I am
using now.

Thanks,

Bob

[jon]

On Friday, 29 May 2015 07:18:23 UTC-4, Bob Hanson wrote:
> Hi TeXers,
>
> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
> been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
> it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
> found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
> for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
> I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
> more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.

if time is not an issue -- and it sounds like it isn't if you already have
a resume in .odt ready to go -- then i'd say, yes it is a decent way to
explore using latex. it will likely expose you to the following things (in
no particular order):

1. sectional divisions and how to modify them (and surrounding space)
2. tables
3. bibliographical tools (if an 'academic' resume)
4. fonts
5. general formatting (best) practices
6. ...

>
> For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
> headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
> using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
> clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
> instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
> everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
> same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.

yes and yes: latex will help with consistency & with plain text formats
that are more easily "future-proofed".

plain text formats are also good for version control.

> It hasn't happened often but I do remember a few times over many years that
> I lost important documents because of corruption (by the software, not file
> corruption) or format changes that weren't upward compatible. Open Office is
> good but not without bugs. I have run into one severe one that cost me a
> spreadsheet I needed.

exactly. if you make a mistake or a package is updated in some incompatible
way (rare, but it happens), the .tex file is not harmed, it just means
the resulting PDF or DVI won't be produced (or is made, but not in the way
you wanted/expected). it is usually quite trivial to make the fix.

>
> I would be interested in any comments about this kind of thing, whether a
> resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX, etc. I would also like to know what
> other advantages there are in LaTeX vis a vis the wysiwyg type of setup I am
> using now.

three other advantage i quite like:

1. being able to do modular design so i can easily produce different
cv's depending on the target audience with the same set of base .tex files.
this is often combined with:

2. being able to use 'conditionals' to produce different output -- e.g., a4
paper vs letterpaper), cv's with certain sections omitted, etc.

3. when you figure out a cool trick or hack or whatever, the next time you
want to do it, you can go back and look (and copy and/or modify) the
existing code to replicate that same effect/feature. this does not happen
with wysiwyg.

and of course, depending on your personality type, you'll find writing and
designing (la)tex documents just plain fun. that never once happened when
i use(d) word processing software....

cheers,
jon.

[Axel Berger]

Bob Hanson wrote on Fri, 15-05-29 13:18:

> whether a resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX,

It certainly is, but necessary the best thing to start with from
scratch.

>For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
>headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I
>am using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again.

You obviously already have a good grasp of the main point. Don't
underestimate the effort to design a style from scratch. You had better
begin with one of those on offer or find experienced help. Jumping into
the deep end with that as your first project is probably not a good
idea.
With experience that too becomes routine sometime, but there is only so
much you can learn and remember in a single go.

[news13]

On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:18:14 +0000, Bob Hanson wrote:

> Hi TeXers,
>
> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I
> have been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try
> learning it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX?

I consider it a hard way, as they are wsiwyg worporocessors and not the
text markup system that Tex/Latex is.

Apart from the change in approach, error finding can be fairly taxing at
times.

Personally I suggest doing simple tasks and using those successful tasks
as the base for expanded stuff.

Each successful(compilable) file becomes a template for similar tasks in
future.

That said, it is only the fancy that is a problem.



The real benefit of learning Tex/Latex is that it has outlasted just
about every other word processor and my experience with them goes back to
CP/M stuff,

[Peter Wilson]

On 29/05/15 12:18, Bob Hanson wrote:
> Hi TeXers,
>
> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
> been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
> it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
> found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
> for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
> I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
> more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.
>
> For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
> headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
> using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
> clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
> instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
> everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
> same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.

For example, in LaTeX you can specify the style of a variety of headings
involving the font, font size, alignment, spacing before and after, etc.

Similarly with other common structures in your document.

LaTeX files are plain text.

If you can't find what you like among the several available CV/resume
templates/packages then you could try a more general class such as
komascript or memoir (warning: I was the original author of memoir)
which enable you to easily control just how you want your documents to look.

>
> It hasn't happened often but I do remember a few times over many years that
> I lost important documents because of corruption (by the software, not file
> corruption) or format changes that weren't upward compatible. Open Office is
> good but not without bugs. I have run into one severe one that cost me a
> spreadsheet I needed.

In the past I was heavily involved with the creation of an ISO
International Standard that, published in many parts, ran to thousands
of page all prepared via LaTeX with no software/compatibility problems.

Off topic: Are you sure that a 10 page resume is appropriate? I have
been involved in job seeking in the UK and USA and also with recruiting
people in the USA, all in the technical area. I got the feeling that
that were many more applicants than available positions and the longer
the resume the more likely it was to be put to the bottom of the pile.
If I had a job opening and there were a hundred applicants a one or two
page resume of the applicant's working highlights worth weighed much
more than someone who might be waffling along for 10 pages. But never
mind me, I've turned from a young cynic into and old one.

Peter W.

[jon]

On Saturday, 30 May 2015 08:10:19 UTC-4, Axel Berger wrote:
> Bob Hanson wrote on Fri, 15-05-29 13:18:
> > whether a resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX,
>
> It certainly is, but necessary the best thing to start with from
> scratch.

i assume you meant "but not necessarily". i suppose it depends on how
complex the resume is in terms of it's layout, but most are hardly
that complex. as long as one has the time, it is easy enough to pick
away at the task over a few weeks (or longer). if one wants to go from
"zero" to a fully finished resume in an afternoon, then it is probably
a bad idea. but given the op already has a .odt file, the urgency
probably isn't there....

>
> >For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
> >headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I
> >am using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again.
>
> You obviously already have a good grasp of the main point. Don't
> underestimate the effort to design a style from scratch. You had better
> begin with one of those on offer or find experienced help. Jumping into
> the deep end with that as your first project is probably not a good
> idea.

if only there were some good resume/cv .cls files. but there aren't, in
my opinion: most are extremely inflexible and often weirdly programmed.
(i also not keen on how most of them look, but that's a matter of taste.)
trying to "fix" features of these "templates" is a far more difficult
task than trying to layout a simple document made up of headings, tables,
lists, and (maybe) bibliographical items.

beginners simply can't modify the internals of, say, moderncv unless,
perhaps, they have some programming experience already. and any
solution given to them by others will likely be used as cargo cult
mana from heaven until they are far more adept at (la)tex anyways.

however, if one of the classes is to your liking, then by all means
use it. (though learning how to use a template is, arguably, not
really learning how to use (la)tex itself.)

cheers,
jon.

[Theo Markettos]

Bob Hanson <bha...@dont-email.me> wrote:
> Hi TeXers,
>
> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
> been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
> it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
> found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
> for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
> I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
> more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.

I'd say a resume is one of the worst uses of LaTeX I could think of.

Some reasons:

LaTeX is quite profligate with space. This is fine when you're writing a
book - the reader will get tired if you pack too much in. For a resume,
the chance of the recruiter reading it declines with every extra page.
Therefore a good resume needs to be tight.

(I'm not quite sure what a 10 page resume would contain - unless you're an
academic and have a very long publication record [where LaTeX would help].
Target 2, max 4 is more what I'd expect - but maybe your country is
different?)

A resume is supposed to stand out. LaTeX is about making things fit in.
Maybe you aren't going for the kind of job where creative skills are
important, but a bad style can make the most amazing facts look drab.
LaTeX is great when you're producing an academic journal full of papers by
different authors - they all look the same. That's not what you want for a
resume.

LaTeX is about scale, and a resume isn't. LaTeX is good for complicated
structured documents, especially in the dozens or hundreds of pages. The
fewer pages you can get your message across in a resume the better. (one
way you can get scale with LaTeX is if you have to produce a hundred
different resumes every week - but then maybe something else is wrong)

A resume is about selling yourself. A LaTeX document does not sell itself
in general - books have covers that look more exciting than the inside (and
those covers are generally not designed in LaTeX), while people read
scientific papers because they're published in Nature or whatever rather
than because they grab your attention on the coffee table. (Top journals
like Nature and friends do their own typography, I might add).

> For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
> headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
> using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
> clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
> instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
> everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
> same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.

LaTeX does structure well, and layout badly. So instead of trying to do
structure in wysiwyg, you'll have to do layout in code instead. The layout
price is worth paying if your document contains 100 instances of the same
problem, but not if there's only two.

That's not to say many of these things can't be rectified with a pile of
extension packages, and some very nice output can be produced if you put the
effort in, but a resume is the kind of problem where you ought to be putting
the effort into getting the job not wrestling with the formatting.

Theo
(a regular LaTeX user and not trolling, honest!)

[Axel Berger]

jon wrote on Sun, 15-05-31 00:04:

>i assume you meant "but not necessarily".

Absolutely. My brain, lame as it is, dictates faster than the fingers
can kep up.

> beginners simply can't modify the internals of, say, moderncv ...

> any solution given to them by others will likely be used as cargo
> cult mana from heaven until they are far more adept

Exactly. I think a novice should first gain experience with using LaTeX
before delving into programming and modifying packages.

>as long as one has the time, it is easy enough to pick away at the task
>over a few weeks (or longer). if one wants to go from "zero" to a fully
>finished resume in an afternoon, then it is probably a bad idea.

You're right of course, but it's going to be strenuous and frustrating
weeks only fit for the determined and discplined. Of course I don't
know Bob, but I don't fit that mold.

That said I did teach myself advanced HTML in just that way in a
fortnight of sixteen hour days, but I had been writing simple non-CSS
pages for months already. And HTML is simple and restricted compared to
the richness of TeX.

Axel

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-29, jon <jonwro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, 29 May 2015 07:18:23 UTC-4, Bob Hanson wrote:
>> Hi TeXers,
>>
>> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
>> been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
>> it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
>> found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
>> for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
>> I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
>> more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.
>
> if time is not an issue -- and it sounds like it isn't if you already have
> a resume in .odt ready to go -- then i'd say, yes it is a decent way to
> explore using latex. it will likely expose you to the following things (in
> no particular order):
>
> 1. sectional divisions and how to modify them (and surrounding space)
> 2. tables
> 3. bibliographical tools (if an 'academic' resume)
> 4. fonts
> 5. general formatting (best) practices
> 6. ...

That sounds like a lot of stuff. I'm waiting for a LaTeX book to arrive and
I'll see if maybe I can start fooling around with this. It all seems very
daunting. Sometimes when you know something well enough it's hard to
remember you had to learn it at some point. The older I get the more time I
seem to spend deciding whether something is worth learning.

>> I would be interested in any comments about this kind of thing, whether a
>> resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX, etc. I would also like to know what
>> other advantages there are in LaTeX vis a vis the wysiwyg type of setup I am
>> using now.
>
> three other advantage i quite like:
>
> 1. being able to do modular design so i can easily produce different
> cv's depending on the target audience with the same set of base .tex files.
> this is often combined with:
>
> 2. being able to use 'conditionals' to produce different output -- e.g., a4
> paper vs letterpaper), cv's with certain sections omitted, etc.

I haven't messed around with different paper sizes but at one point I was
including certain sections for certain audiences. It was a manual process. I
don't know if I want to keep different versions or send different versions
anymore but it is good to know it could be automated in a single version.

> and of course, depending on your personality type, you'll find writing and
> designing (la)tex documents just plain fun. that never once happened when
> i use(d) word processing software....

That was the attraction years ago but in the end I just never did anything
with LaTeX. I think I used postscript at one point. I remember some kind of
control language for formatting but it was so many years ago I can't
remember what it was. And then the "easy" stuff came along like Word and OO
which are really annoying when it gets beyond writing a letter longer than
one page. OO is really bad now in that there is no cursor position indicator
on the last few versions and it's hard to make sure things are aligned properly.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-29, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:
> Bob Hanson wrote on Fri, 15-05-29 13:18:
>> whether a resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX,
>
> It certainly is, but necessary the best thing to start with from
> scratch.

Thanks. I wondered about that too. It seems like because of the layout it
would be a lot harder than a book without formulas, illustrations etc.

>>For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
>>headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I
>>am using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again.
>
> You obviously already have a good grasp of the main point. Don't
> underestimate the effort to design a style from scratch. You had better
> begin with one of those on offer or find experienced help. Jumping into
> the deep end with that as your first project is probably not a good
> idea.
> With experience that too becomes routine sometime, but there is only so
> much you can learn and remember in a single go.

Very true.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-30, jon <jonwro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 30 May 2015 08:10:19 UTC-4, Axel Berger wrote:
>> Bob Hanson wrote on Fri, 15-05-29 13:18:
>> > whether a resume is an appropriate use of LaTeX,
>>
>> It certainly is, but necessary the best thing to start with from
>> scratch.
>
> i assume you meant "but not necessarily".

I read it that way too.

> i suppose it depends on how complex the resume is in terms of it's layout,
> but most are hardly that complex. as long as one has the time, it is easy
> enough to pick away at the task over a few weeks (or longer). if one wants
> to go from "zero" to a fully finished resume in an afternoon, then it is
> probably a bad idea. but given the op already has a .odt file, the
> urgency probably isn't there....

Right. I'm employed right now thank God but I like to keep my resume
updated. For the last few revisions I've been thinking gee it would be nice
to learn LaTeX and I keep wondering if this would be a good way to learn
it. Then I take the easy way out and try to kick the resume into shape
manually.

> if only there were some good resume/cv .cls files. but there aren't, in
> my opinion: most are extremely inflexible and often weirdly programmed.
> (i also not keen on how most of them look, but that's a matter of taste.)
> trying to "fix" features of these "templates" is a far more difficult
> task than trying to layout a simple document made up of headings, tables,
> lists, and (maybe) bibliographical items.

I have not seem them all but I did look and I gave up after seeing a dozen
or so examples. None of them were what I wanted. I'm really happy with my
layout. I would like to make it more crisp with better alignment and maybe
better fonts but I don't understand how to choose the best one(s) at
all. LaTeX documents seem to me recognizable for some reason. They look
good. I would like the professional appearance that's glaringly absent with
Word resumes.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-31, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:

> Exactly. I think a novice should first gain experience with using LaTeX
> before delving into programming and modifying packages.

What would be a good way to do that?

> You're right of course, but it's going to be strenuous and frustrating
> weeks only fit for the determined and discplined. Of course I don't
> know Bob, but I don't fit that mold.

If I have a goal I can plug along at it as long as I know I'm not beating
my head against a wall. That was one of the points of my question. If it's
just not an appropriate use of LaTeX then I'm not sure I'll try to learn
LaTeX until I need it for something it is appropriate for.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-30, news13 <newsthirte...@woa.com.au> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:18:14 +0000, Bob Hanson wrote:
>
>> Hi TeXers,
>>
>> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I
>> have been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try
>> learning it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX?
>
> I consider it a hard way, as they are wsiwyg worporocessors and not the
> text markup system that Tex/Latex is.

Yes but that's if you know what you're doing. I don't think anybody feels
that way at the beginning unless they started before wysiwyg.

> Personally I suggest doing simple tasks and using those successful tasks
> as the base for expanded stuff.

Sure, but that could take years and cost thousands of lives.

> The real benefit of learning Tex/Latex is that it has outlasted just
> about every other word processor and my experience with them goes back to
> CP/M stuff,

Yes. I'm a little tired of going from one lousy tool to the next every
decade or so. But not tired enough to have done anything about it, apparently.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-30, Peter Wilson <herrie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 29/05/15 12:18, Bob Hanson wrote:
>> Hi TeXers,
>>
>> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I have
>> been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to try learning
>> it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX? I looked around and
>> found many templates (I don't mean to use that term as a term of art, just
>> for lack of knowing what to call it) and none of them are what I would like.
>> I am happy more or less with my formatting. I just want to automate that
>> more and produce something that has a nicer appearance if possible.
>>
>> For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
>> headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
>> using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
>> clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
>> instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
>> everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
>> same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.
>
> For example, in LaTeX you can specify the style of a variety of headings
> involving the font, font size, alignment, spacing before and after, etc.

That is good of course but I am not expert in any of those things and I
don't know how easy they are to specify so it is a little daunting knowing
I'll have to deal with that.

> If you can't find what you like among the several available CV/resume
> templates/packages then you could try a more general class such as
> komascript or memoir (warning: I was the original author of memoir)
> which enable you to easily control just how you want your documents to
> look.

Ideally I would like to use the base language whatever that is and try to
make it work for what I want. Is that reasonable? I'm sure templates are
helpful if they are exactly what you want or if you know how to tweak them,
but to me it seems more trouble than it's worth until I know something about
LaTeX.

> In the past I was heavily involved with the creation of an ISO
> International Standard that, published in many parts, ran to thousands
> of page all prepared via LaTeX with no software/compatibility problems.

Great!

> Off topic: Are you sure that a 10 page resume is appropriate? I have
> been involved in job seeking in the UK and USA and also with recruiting
> people in the USA, all in the technical area. I got the feeling that
> that were many more applicants than available positions and the longer
> the resume the more likely it was to be put to the bottom of the pile.
> If I had a job opening and there were a hundred applicants a one or two
> page resume of the applicant's working highlights worth weighed much
> more than someone who might be waffling along for 10 pages. But never
> mind me, I've turned from a young cynic into and old one.

I am a tech manager and I have hired people for several companies. The way I
look at it is we're going to pay six figures if we hire somebody and a few
thousand bucks just to interview him. I think I can spend 10 or 20 minutes
looking over an applicant's resume before I call H.R. and ask them to get
plane tickets, a hotel reservation, and a rental car to bring the applicant
in and sit with me and my group for a full business day.

Similarly when I am on the job-seeking end the company I am looking for is
going to make a significant investment just to find out if I'm suitable and
that ought to begin by paying a little attention to my resume so they can
understand who's applying. If they can't do that then I really don't believe
it is any place I want to work. Then again I am not looking at hundreds of
resumes and I'm not applying to jobs where they receive hundreds of resumes.

I have had one or two recruiters in the past twenty years tell me my resume
was too long. I asked them what suggestions they had for shortening it or
making it more presentable. They couldn't offer anything at all, only that
it was "too long." The next thing that happened was that I dumped those guys
and got better headhunters and a new job post-haste with my "too long"
resume, both times. That hasn't happened in years but admittedly most or all
of the last few jobs I took were where I had some kind of connection to
people working there already. But they did hand in my resume and I did get
an interview and a job anyway. So yes, I feel it's appropriate and it seems
to be effective. If once in a while it doesn't work, well, you can't win 'em
all.

I have seen a lot of frustratingly sketchy resumes and they simply go into
the garbage can. I get the impression most of the guys who present resumes
like that are liars or poor communicators not able to give concrete facts
about their responsibilities and point to specific accomplishments. That
makes a bad impression on me. I'm not saying a resume should be short or
long. I believe it should be scannable, readable, and contain information
you can sink your teeth into and give you a good idea whether this guy is
somebody you want to sit down and talk with or not. If you have a lot of
experience and a lot of accomplishments it's simply going to take more real
estate to present that.

I think you have to strike a balance by presenting an abstract that contains
and overview of your qualifications and what you are looking for, and then
present the rest of the information in a way that's readily accessible. I
like to see company names, dates of employment and job titles and then be
able to drill down into specifics of interest. A good resume should scan
well and read well. I know from the first page whether the rest is worth
reading but I often do care very much about what's on the rest of the pages.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-05-31, Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> I'd say a resume is one of the worst uses of LaTeX I could think of.
>
> Some reasons:
>
> LaTeX is quite profligate with space. This is fine when you're writing a
> book - the reader will get tired if you pack too much in. For a resume,
> the chance of the recruiter reading it declines with every extra page.
> Therefore a good resume needs to be tight.

Agreed. I was hoping LaTeX would help with this and I'm a little surprised
to read this is one of the things it won't help with, but better now than later.

> (I'm not quite sure what a 10 page resume would contain - unless you're an
> academic and have a very long publication record [where LaTeX would help].
> Target 2, max 4 is more what I'd expect - but maybe your country is
> different?)

(Above addressed in a previous reply)

> A resume is supposed to stand out. LaTeX is about making things fit in.
> Maybe you aren't going for the kind of job where creative skills are
> important, but a bad style can make the most amazing facts look drab.
> LaTeX is great when you're producing an academic journal full of papers by
> different authors - they all look the same. That's not what you want for a
> resume.

I'm not in academia and I don't recall receiving a resume in LaTeX. I think
in my area it would stand out. What's normal are really ragged, ugly resumes
in Word. I would even prefer plain text but nobody does that anymore.

> LaTeX is about scale, and a resume isn't. LaTeX is good for complicated
> structured documents, especially in the dozens or hundreds of pages. The
> fewer pages you can get your message across in a resume the better. (one
> way you can get scale with LaTeX is if you have to produce a hundred
> different resumes every week - but then maybe something else is wrong)

Good info again.

>> For example I am having to manually space out and align many of the
>> headings. There is a structure to the document and because of the tool I am
>> using now I have to repeat that structure over and over again. This is
>> clearly not optimal. Presumably LaTeX can do this with less effort when
>> instructed to do so. The other thing important to me is to be able to keep
>> everything in plain text and not have to depend on formats staying the
>> same. That is something about LaTeX I find very appealing.
>
> LaTeX does structure well, and layout badly. So instead of trying to do
> structure in wysiwyg, you'll have to do layout in code instead. The layout
> price is worth paying if your document contains 100 instances of the same
> problem, but not if there's only two.

I don't know how many structures and substructures there are offhand, but
maybe 8-10.

Thanks,

Bob

[news13]

On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:56:49 +0000, Bob Hanson wrote:

> On 2015-05-30, news13 <newsthirte...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:18:14 +0000, Bob Hanson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi TeXers,
>>>
>>> I have mostly been using Word and then OpenOffice to write resumes. I
>>> have been interested in LaTeX but didn't have any project in mind to
>>> try learning it. Is a 10 page resume a good application for LaTeX?
>>
>> I consider it a hard way, as they are wsiwyg worporocessors and not the
>> text markup system that Tex/Latex is.
>
> Yes but that's if you know what you're doing. I don't think anybody
> feels that way at the beginning unless they started before wysiwyg.

Guilty. Spellbinder on CP/M.

>
>> Personally I suggest doing simple tasks and using those successful
>> tasks as the base for expanded stuff.
>
> Sure, but that could take years and cost thousands of lives.

It does have potential for extreme frustration as it is worse that any
wsyiwg without "reveal codes" in cryptic problems.

Those lives might be hair follicles. You have been warned.

>
>> The real benefit of learning Tex/Latex is that it has outlasted just
>> about every other word processor and my experience with them goes back
>> to CP/M stuff,
>
> Yes. I'm a little tired of going from one lousy tool to the next every
> decade or so. But not tired enough to have done anything about it,
> apparently.

Lol, when you've used a really word processor like wordperfect and it is
no longer there, you become highly motivated.

I've done everything from simple one page list, papers, scientific
reports and a number of small books in Latex.

You could start with your resume. It really is just a block of text. It
is when you want to get fancy and it doesn't work that it gets "fun'.

Just do a bit of reading an understand the philosopy behind it.

[Peter Wilson]

On 01/06/15 11:56, Bob Hanson wrote:
> On 2015-05-30, Peter Wilson <herrie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On 29/05/15 12:18, Bob Hanson wrote:
>>> Hi TeXers,
>>>

<snip>

>> For example, in LaTeX you can specify the style of a variety of headings
>> involving the font, font size, alignment, spacing before and after, etc.
>
> That is good of course but I am not expert in any of those things and I
> don't know how easy they are to specify so it is a little daunting knowing
> I'll have to deal with that.
>
>> If you can't find what you like among the several available CV/resume
>> templates/packages then you could try a more general class such as
>> komascript or memoir (warning: I was the original author of memoir)
>> which enable you to easily control just how you want your documents to
>> look.
>
> Ideally I would like to use the base language whatever that is and try to
> make it work for what I want. Is that reasonable? I'm sure templates are
> helpful if they are exactly what you want or if you know how to tweak them,
> but to me it seems more trouble than it's worth until I know something about
> LaTeX.

Thanks for the response and your view of resumes. Thank goodness I don't
have to do them any more.

If you would care to send me a copy of yours perhaps I could have a go
at creating something along their lines with LaTeX, but I hope you
wouldn't be in a hurry. I don't use Microsoft stuff but do have OO on my
Linux box.

Peter W.

<more snipped>

[Axel Berger]

Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:

>What would be a good way to do that?

Two things I do rather frequently are letters and making web pages
legible. For the former I use scrlttr2. It took some time to tweek my
letterhead there too, but I could do it all inside the options and
variables offered by the class.

The second are straight simple texts, but Tim Berners-Lee's great idea
and deliberately simple format has been broken to such an extent, that
I often can't read it at all. Save as text and add in a little markup
is one the easiest answers.

Then there are presentations with beamer (steep learning curve) and
handouts (nice and easy).

[Axel Berger]

Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:

>I'm sure templates are helpful if they are exactly what you want or if
>you know how to tweak them, but to me it seems more trouble than it's
>worth until I know something about LaTeX.

You misunderstand. Using a class and possibly additional packages you
just tell LaTeX what something is, i.e. "This is a section heading"
"This is a figure caption". The result will be as near perfect as it
gets, but you have to take it as it comes.

Tweaking that look to something else is where it gets tricky. Not that
bad, it's all learnable in a reasonable amount of time, but starting
from "good enough" and tweaking one bit at a time is certainly more
satisfying than e.g. trying to duplicate your current look in one go.

That's what I meant when saying try to find experienced help. For them
it's probably easy to do in a single afternoon and then you could start
from somewthing you feel comfortable with and proceed one detail at a
time.

[Axel Berger]

Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:

>I was hoping LaTeX would help with this and I'm a little surprised to
>read this is one of the things it won't help with, but better now than
>later.

Wrong, it will. But by design it won't want to, so you'll have to apply
some persuasion. For a beginner it's like being faced by a particularly
awkward employee in your first leadership post.
In fact TeX's superior paragraph building and hyphenation makes it far
better at squeezing text into a tight space than any word processor and
it shows.

[Theo Markettos]

Yes, though when it fails it can be a right pain to sort out ('overfull hbox' anyone?).

If this is a 'toy' exercise I think I'd moderate my comments a bit... if
your primary goal is to learn LaTeX and your resume is the chosen vehicle,
then you can do that. It's slightly more pain than starting by writing
letters (for example), but you'll probably learn lots along the way.

What I wouldn't do is decide to learn LaTeX just when your livelihood
depends on the results. You don't want that awkward employee to be the one
making the hiring/firing decision.

Theo

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-06-01, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:
> Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:
>>I'm sure templates are helpful if they are exactly what you want or if
>>you know how to tweak them, but to me it seems more trouble than it's
>>worth until I know something about LaTeX.
>
> You misunderstand. Using a class and possibly additional packages you
> just tell LaTeX what something is, i.e. "This is a section heading"
> "This is a figure caption". The result will be as near perfect as it
> gets, but you have to take it as it comes.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

> Tweaking that look to something else is where it gets tricky. Not that
> bad, it's all learnable in a reasonable amount of time, but starting
> from "good enough" and tweaking one bit at a time is certainly more
> satisfying than e.g. trying to duplicate your current look in one go.

Would it be worthwhile looking into TeX itself or just going straight to
LaTeX. I do have a strong programming background and a little layout (years
old from doing some business collateral with the marketing people) but I
have no knowledge of fonts or typography. I'm not even sure what typography
is but I understand it is a priority with TeXers.

> That's what I meant when saying try to find experienced help. For them
> it's probably easy to do in a single afternoon and then you could start
> from somewthing you feel comfortable with and proceed one detail at a
> time.

Unfortunately there's nobody around that has heard of LaTeX so that's why I
came here. Haven't been on usenet for ages but figured it would be the place
to look.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-06-01, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:

> Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:
>>What would be a good way to do that?
>
> Two things I do rather frequently are letters and making web pages
> legible. For the former I use scrlttr2. It took some time to tweek my
> letterhead there too, but I could do it all inside the options and
> variables offered by the class.

Thanks. I had no idea people used LaTeX for letters. Fascinating! And very
practical...

> The second are straight simple texts, but Tim Berners-Lee's great idea
> and deliberately simple format has been broken to such an extent, that
> I often can't read it at all. Save as text and add in a little markup
> is one the easiest answers.
>
> Then there are presentations with beamer (steep learning curve) and
> handouts (nice and easy).

Thanks. I'll look into that.

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-06-01, Peter Wilson <herrie...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Thanks for the response and your view of resumes. Thank goodness I don't
> have to do them any more.

I'm coming to the end of the road myself. Not sure how many more jobs I have
in me.

> If you would care to send me a copy of yours perhaps I could have a go
> at creating something along their lines with LaTeX, but I hope you
> wouldn't be in a hurry. I don't use Microsoft stuff but do have OO on my
> Linux box.

Thank you, that is a very generous offer. I prefer to either do it myself or
not at all though.

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-06-01, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:

That is more like what I had expected. One of the things I'm trying to avoid
is having to space everything out manually. It's really a drag and without
the cursor position indicator in OO it's getting harder every day. It would
be great to automate that.

Thanks,

Bob

[Bob Hanson]

On 2015-06-01, Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:
>> Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:
>> >I was hoping LaTeX would help with this and I'm a little surprised to
>> >read this is one of the things it won't help with, but better now than
>> >later.
>>
>> Wrong, it will. But by design it won't want to, so you'll have to apply
>> some persuasion. For a beginner it's like being faced by a particularly
>> awkward employee in your first leadership post.
>> In fact TeX's superior paragraph building and hyphenation makes it far
>> better at squeezing text into a tight space than any word processor and
>> it shows.
>
> Yes, though when it fails it can be a right pain to sort out ('overfull hbox' anyone?).
>
> If this is a 'toy' exercise I think I'd moderate my comments a bit... if
> your primary goal is to learn LaTeX and your resume is the chosen vehicle,
> then you can do that. It's slightly more pain than starting by writing
> letters (for example), but you'll probably learn lots along the way.

This is the point, yes.

> What I wouldn't do is decide to learn LaTeX just when your livelihood
> depends on the results. You don't want that awkward employee to be the one
> making the hiring/firing decision.

No. I'm ok where I am but like to keep the resume current by updating it
with whatever I have accomplished in the past couple of years so I don't
have to do it suddenly when the time comes. I have it working now but since
I'm up for a revision I thought I should consider LaTeX again.

Thanks,

Bob

[wexfordpress]

Memoir is a superb effort, with beautiful documentation. On the few occasions I have used Latex in the last decade it was because the memoir class really fit the specs. I am of the pdftex plus eplain clan although my current project is done in Context, which I find myself using more and more.

John Culleton
Able indexers and Typesetters.

[Peter Flynn]

On 06/03/2015 10:56 AM, Bob Hanson wrote:
> On 2015-06-01, Axel Berger <Axel_...@b.maus.de> wrote:
>> Bob Hanson wrote on Mon, 15-06-01 12:56:
>>> I'm sure templates are helpful if they are exactly what you want
>>> or if you know how to tweak them, but to me it seems more trouble
>>> than it's worth until I know something about LaTeX.

That is almost certainly the case. The problem is that templates are by
their nature a form of standardization, so when people say a template
"isn't flexible enough" what they really mean is they want something
else, but don't have the vocabulary or the skill yet to express their
needs in a form that a template-writer (in LaTeX, a class or package
developer) can work from.

> Would it be worthwhile looking into TeX itself

Not if you just want to use LaTeX (ie not write your own macros).

> or just going straight to LaTeX.

Recommended.

> I do have a strong programming background

In that case you would certainly understand The TeX Book; but you
probably won't need the information it contains until you start to
develop your own classes and packages.

> and a little layout (years old from doing some business collateral
> with the marketing people) but I have no knowledge of fonts or
> typography. I'm not even sure what typography is but I understand it
> is a priority with TeXers.

I'd be fairly sure that you'd pick up what you need very quickly.
There are lots of people on newsgroups and mailing lists (eg TYPO-L) who
can point you in the right direction.

WARNING: Typography is addictive. You will end up proofreading menus,
criticizing the fonts used in everything from adverts to books, and
pointing out to your nearest and dearest the subtleties of kerning :-)

> Unfortunately there's nobody around that has heard of LaTeX so that's
> why I came here. Haven't been on usenet for ages but figured it would
> be the place to look.

Damn right :-)

\begin{plug}
http://latex.silmaril.ie/formattinginformation/ is one place to start
(because I wrote it :-) but there are hundreds of others.
\end{plug}

Have a look at the latest version of the Europass CV at
https://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/europasscv
It's not a layout I like much, aesthetically, but it gives you the
flavour of what can be achieved.

///Peter

[Peter Flynn]

On 06/01/2015 11:56 AM, Bob Hanson wrote:
> On 2015-05-31, Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I'd say a resume is one of the worst uses of LaTeX I could think of.

It ought to be the best: a classic case for standardization.

>> Some reasons:
>>
>> LaTeX is quite profligate with space.

Only if you use the default macros. LaTeX just outputs what it is told:
if the package or class developer was profligate with space in the
design, you can't really blame LaTex for that.

>> This is fine when you're writing a book - the reader will get tired
>> if you pack too much in. For a resume, the chance of the recruiter
>> reading it declines with every extra page. Therefore a good resume
>> needs to be tight.

But not so tight that you can't read it. I have seen CVs done in 8pt
type densely spaced (to squash it into 2 pages) so that it was virtually
impossible for the eye to pick up the start of the next line without a
ruler and magnifying glass.

> Agreed. I was hoping LaTeX would help with this and I'm a little
> surprised to read this is one of the things it won't help with, but
> better now than later.

LaTeX can certainly manage your spacing (probably more accurately and
reliably than Word or OO, from what I see).

>> (I'm not quite sure what a 10 page resume would contain - unless
>> you're an academic and have a very long publication record [where
>> LaTeX would help]. Target 2, max 4 is more what I'd expect - but
>> maybe your country is different?)
>
> (Above addressed in a previous reply)

[...]

> Similarly when I am on the job-seeking end the company I am looking
> for is going to make a significant investment just to find out if I'm
> suitable and that ought to begin by paying a little attention to my
> resume so they can understand who's applying. If they can't do that
> then I really don't believe it is any place I want to work.

If you find a company that is prepared to spend that time actually
reading resumes, please let me know. Most of them glance at p.1 and toss
it if the applicant is over 16 :-)

>> A resume is supposed to stand out. LaTeX is about making things
>> fit in. Maybe you aren't going for the kind of job where creative
>> skills are important, but a bad style can make the most amazing
>> facts look drab. LaTeX is great when you're producing an academic
>> journal full of papers by different authors - they all look the
>> same. That's not what you want for a resume.

Right if it's going to be read by a human.
This is why I would write my own if was applying for a job (but that's
because I would have the greatest difficulty in actually using a
wordprocessor after decades of using *TeX).

Wrong if it's going to be read by a 'bot or agent: they want them all in
a similar format. That (for example) is what the Europass CV is for.

> I'm not in academia and I don't recall receiving a resume in LaTeX.

You shouldn't be able to tell. It should be a PDF, anyway, unless the
company specifically asks for Word format.

> I think in my area it would stand out. What's normal are really
> ragged, ugly resumes in Word. I would even prefer plain text but
> nobody does that anymore.

Yes, most of the ones I see are uniformly abysmal, amply demonstrating
that the applicant has zero clue about how to use Word :-)

Fortunately for most grades, my university requires applications to be
on their application form, so applicants don't get a chance to submit a
resume (and if they do, it's discarded -- with most jobs attracting
hundreds of applicants, it's important to screen them with a fixed
format). At higher levels, and in some cases at later stages in the
process, formal CVs are admitted.

>> LaTeX does structure well, and layout badly.

It only does layout badly when the design defaults are bad. Change them,
and it will do the layout as you want it.

///Peter

[JohnF]

Bob Hanson <bha...@dont-email.me> wrote:
> <<snip>> One of the things I'm trying to avoid

> is having to space everything out manually. It's really a drag and without
> the cursor position indicator in OO it's getting harder every day. It would
> be great to automate that. Thanks, Bob

I browsed maybe half the preceding posts, and would agree with the
one(s?) that suggested maybe >>don't<< start to learn latex rewriting
your resume, because the formatting's too complicated and too important
to get wrong. Instead, as also suggested previously, start with letters,
or maybe with memos, progress reports, etc, where it will be >>much<<
easier to achieve satisfactory-or-better results without complicated
formatting.
You can start from scratch (zero specific (la)tex knowledge),
and whip out a quick memo in maybe 15-30 minutes. Some of the stuff at
http://www.tug.org/interest.html#doc
(maybe skip down a few paragraphs to the latex-specific tutorials
if latex is your preference) should get you started almost immediately
if not sooner (as per the quote, "the problem with instant gratification
is that it takes too long").
After writing a few documents like that, you'll begin acquiring
some more sophistication, and can take a stab at your resume whenever
you feel you're ready to give it a try.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j...@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

[jon]

On Wednesday, 3 June 2015 17:45:28 UTC-4, peter wrote:
> On 06/03/2015 10:56 AM, Bob Hanson wrote:
>
> > and a little layout (years old from doing some business collateral
> > with the marketing people) but I have no knowledge of fonts or
> > typography. I'm not even sure what typography is but I understand it
> > is a priority with TeXers.
>
> I'd be fairly sure that you'd pick up what you need very quickly.
> There are lots of people on newsgroups and mailing lists (eg TYPO-L) who
> can point you in the right direction.
>
> WARNING: Typography is addictive. You will end up proofreading menus,
> criticizing the fonts used in everything from adverts to books, and
> pointing out to your nearest and dearest the subtleties of kerning :-)
>

http://xkcd.com/1015/

cheers,
jon.