Re: All-in-One PCs

[android]

In article <MPG.310eb7be2...@news.supernews.com>,
Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Just curious if anyone is using all in one PCs for image processing and
> if yes which ones.

The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
hook up a screen of your choice!
>
> Personally I'm currently eyeing some models with a 24" or 27" screen and
> 4K resolution.
--
teleportation kills

[Alfred Molon]

In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
says...

>
> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> hook up a screen of your choice!

Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

[android]

In article <MPG.310eed3c5...@news.supernews.com>,

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
> >
> > The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> > the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> > hook up a screen of your choice!
>
> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?

Why? Whatever! You can run W10 in Bootcamp IIRC...
--
teleportation kills

[android]

In article <240120161344159377%timst...@greenbee.net>,
Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <here-013250.1...@news.individual.net>, android

> What does the fathead want Windows for?

I dunno... I have a cheapoo laptop for some logins...
--
teleportation kills

[Lewis]

In message <MPG.310eed3c5...@news.supernews.com>

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
>>
>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>> hook up a screen of your choice!

> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?

Who cares?

--
Today the road all runners come/Shoulder high we bring you home. And
set you at your threshold down/Townsman of a stiller town.

[Alan Browne]

Bootcamp is next to useless. Run Windows in a VM such as VMWare Fusion
or Parallels.

iMac's are fantastic. For a Windows user who has a monitor, keyboard
and mouse, the Mac Mini is a fine transition machine, but none come with
a quad core i7.

The newer iMac's with 5K retina displays are magnificent.

--
"But I am somehow extraordinarily lucky, for a guy with shitty luck."
..Harrison Ford, Rolling Stone - 2015-12-02

[android]

In article <iaKdncs6Md8dQjnL...@giganews.com>,

Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-24 08:28, android wrote:
> > In article <MPG.310eed3c5...@news.supernews.com>,
> > Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> >> says...
> >>>
> >>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> >>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> >>> hook up a screen of your choice!
> >>
> >> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
> >
> > Why? Whatever! You can run W10 in Bootcamp IIRC...
>
> Bootcamp is next to useless. Run Windows in a VM such as VMWare Fusion
> or Parallels.

Whatever, some have very little use for Windows. I boot it once or twice
per month on average...

>
> iMac's are fantastic. For a Windows user who has a monitor, keyboard
> and mouse, the Mac Mini is a fine transition machine, but none come with
> a quad core i7.
>
> The newer iMac's with 5K retina displays are magnificent.

I like to Lego approach... One pice broken? Then fix THAT one.
--
teleportation kills

[Alan Browne]

The only difference between a Mac mini setup and an iMac is the screen
and the brick. The Mac Mini has become a turd in terms of repairing -
though not as bad as an iMac which now involves ordering a glue-gasket
to put it all back together ...

So, for a photographer who needs a great displays and a powerful main
processor and pretty good graphics processor, the iMac has it all over
what one could do with a mini and 3rd party monitor.

If one wants the 'lego' approach one might as well stick to desktop
machines.

[David Taylor]

On 24/01/2016 13:17, Alfred Molon wrote:
> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
>>
>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>
> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?

Yes, for example Dell offer 23-inch and 24-inch units. Their latest:

http://www.dell.com/uk/p/inspiron-24-7459-aio/pd?ref=PD_Family

Doubtless other manufacturers offer something similar. "All-in-one"
appears to be Dell's key phrase for these PCs.

http://www.dell.com/uk/p/desktops

The units have just a full HD display, though.

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

[Lewis]

In message <ENKdnf03SM4bfjnL...@giganews.com>

You do not need a glue gun for an iMac.

There are significant differences between the Mac mini and the iMac.
Processors and GPU are the most obvious ones.

--
He wasn't good or evil or cruel or extreme in any way but one, which was
that he had elevated greyness to the status of a fine art and cultivated
a mind that was as bleak and pitiless and logical as the slopes of Hell.

[Alan Browne]

Indeed ... so coarse Dell seem embarrassed to list the pixel dimensions
on that impressive-to-the-innocent page of specs.

It's likely 1080 which is pretty coarse by today's standards.

My ancient (2012) iMac (27") is 2560 x 1440 and an up to date iMac
retina is 4096 x 2304 pixels.

[Alfred Molon]

In article <here-013250.1...@news.individual.net>, android

says...
> Why?

Very simple - I don't have any Mac software. And I have no clue whether
and how Windows will run on a Mac.

If Apple were offering Macs with preinstalled Windows (why aren't
they?), I would consider one.

But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
Windows machines.

I couldn't care less about Windows vs Mac vs Linux vs whatever. But
since everything I have is with Windows, my next PC will be a Windows
one.

[Alan Browne]

I never said one did. What one does need is the glue-gasket to put the
screen bezel back in place after making a repair.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2546+Adhesive+Strips+Replacement/15624

>
> There are significant differences between the Mac mini and the iMac.
> Processors and GPU are the most obvious ones.

Yes, I alluded to that elsewhere in this thread.

[android]

In article <ENKdnf03SM4bfjnL...@giganews.com>,

Lego: If the CPU is a gonner then i get to keep the display. If the
display lost it then i get to keep the CPU. That's the way that I want
it.

>
> So, for a photographer who needs a great displays and a powerful main
> processor and pretty good graphics processor, the iMac has it all over
> what one could do with a mini and 3rd party monitor.

But I wanna pick the display meself!

>
> If one wants the 'lego' approach one might as well stick to desktop
> machines.

The MacPro isn't that different in the respect that it's a unit
separated from the screen
--
teleportation kills

[Alan Browne]

Yeah - Android x-posted this to the Mac group making it look like you
were interested in Macs as well - I picked up on it in the Mac group.

FU set.

[android]

In article <MPG.310f07a3e...@news.supernews.com>,

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> my next PC will be a Windows
> one.

Oki...
--
teleportation kills

[Sandman]

In article <MPG.310f07a3e...@news.supernews.com>, Alfred Molon wrote:

> > android:

> > Why?
>
> Very simple - I don't have any Mac software.

What Windows software do you have that you plan on using on your new computer?

--
Sandman

[nospam]

In article <iaKdncs6Md8dQjnL...@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> >>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> >>> hook up a screen of your choice!
> >>
> >> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
> >
> > Why? Whatever! You can run W10 in Bootcamp IIRC...
>
> Bootcamp is next to useless. Run Windows in a VM such as VMWare Fusion
> or Parallels.

boot camp is perfect for someone who buys a mac and only wants to run
windows.

> iMac's are fantastic. For a Windows user who has a monitor, keyboard
> and mouse, the Mac Mini is a fine transition machine, but none come with
> a quad core i7.

the 2014 model doesn't, but prior to that they absolutely did.

the reason is because the quad core i7 has a different socket and it's
not worth making a separate logic board for a low volume configuration.

it also doesn't matter all that much.

> The newer iMac's with 5K retina displays are magnificent.

very.

[nospam]

In article <MPG.310f07a3e...@news.supernews.com>, Alfred

Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Very simple - I don't have any Mac software.

it's possible to sidegrade, including adobe.

> And I have no clue whether
> and how Windows will run on a Mac.

quite well.

<http://www.cnet.com/news/macbook-pro-declared-best-performing-windows-l
aptop/>

<http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-running-windows-8-on-a-mac-is-better-t
han-running-it-on-a-pc/>

> If Apple were offering Macs with preinstalled Windows (why aren't
> they?), I would consider one.

because people want os x.

those who want windows can buy windows on their own.

> But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
> Windows machines.

completely wrong.

for photography, mac share is huge.

> I couldn't care less about Windows vs Mac vs Linux vs whatever. But
> since everything I have is with Windows, my next PC will be a Windows
> one.

your choice.

[PeterN]

On 1/24/2016 8:17 AM, Alfred Molon wrote:
> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
>>
>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>
> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
>

Yep! I use an HP Elite, which i have upgraded a few times. Added some
memory, cost about $70. A few years ago the HD crashed, cost to replace,
including labor under $200, including adding a second internal HD. I
recently added a new graphics card to support my new monitor. Cost under
$100. I have had the machine for a bit over six years. While there is
nothing wrong with Macs, I think the ability to easily upgrade makes it
a better machine for y purposes.
BTW my processor is an eight core i7.


--
PeterN

[PeterN]

On 1/24/2016 9:28 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 08:28, android wrote:
>> In article <MPG.310eed3c5...@news.supernews.com>,
>> Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>>>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>>>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>>>
>>> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
>>
>> Why? Whatever! You can run W10 in Bootcamp IIRC...
>
> Bootcamp is next to useless. Run Windows in a VM such as VMWare Fusion
> or Parallels.
>
> iMac's are fantastic. For a Windows user who has a monitor, keyboard
> and mouse, the Mac Mini is a fine transition machine, but none come with
> a quad core i7.
>
> The newer iMac's with 5K retina displays are magnificent.
>

Indeed it is. Many of Windows users find it works just fine, serves our
purposes and is easily flexible to meet changing needs. I am not machine
passionate. Nor do most Windows users I know, with one exception, fall
in love with Apple.
As for graphics uses, my daughter, who is a creative director, prefers a
windows machine. I have used both, and seen little, if any, difference,
except that not all Windows programs run well under VM. Also, despite
what some here say.

--
PeterN

[PeterN]

A screw driver takes less space, and has other uses. ;-)

--
PeterN

[Lewis]

In message <-Nmdneq6Z94-dDnL...@giganews.com>

Sorry. I read "glue-gasket" as glue gun. The letters are practically the
same!


--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

[Lewis]

In message <MPG.310f07a3e...@news.supernews.com>

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <here-013250.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
>> Why?

> Very simple - I don't have any Mac software. And I have no clue whether
> and how Windows will run on a Mac.

> If Apple were offering Macs with preinstalled Windows (why aren't
> they?), I would consider one.

> But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
> Windows machines.

> I couldn't care less about Windows vs Mac vs Linux vs whatever. But
> since everything I have is with Windows, my next PC will be a Windows
> one.

Apple makes the best Windows laptops.

--
Footnote on the High Energy Magic building: It was here that the thaum,
hitherto believed to be the smallest possible particle of magic, was
successfully demonstrated to be made up of resons (lit: 'Thing-ies) or
reality fragments. Currently research indicates that each reson is
itself made up of a combination of at least five 'flavours', known as
'up', 'down', 'sideways', 'sex appeal' and 'peppermint'.

[Lewis]

In message <-Nmdneu6Z95ndTnL...@giganews.com>

Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 09:46, David Taylor wrote:
>> On 24/01/2016 13:17, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>>>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>>>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>>>
>>> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
>>
>> Yes, for example Dell offer 23-inch and 24-inch units. Their latest:
>>
>> http://www.dell.com/uk/p/inspiron-24-7459-aio/pd?ref=PD_Family
>>
>> Doubtless other manufacturers offer something similar. "All-in-one"
>> appears to be Dell's key phrase for these PCs.
>>
>> http://www.dell.com/uk/p/desktops
>>
>> The units have just a full HD display, though.

> Indeed ... so coarse Dell seem embarrassed to list the pixel dimensions
> on that impressive-to-the-innocent page of specs.

> It's likely 1080 which is pretty coarse by today's standards.

> My ancient (2012) iMac (27") is 2560 x 1440 and an up to date iMac
> retina is 4096 x 2304 pixels.

No. It is 5120x2880 (exactly double the non-retina in each direction).



--
There are strange things done in the midnight sun/By the men who moil
for gold; The Arctic trails have their secret tales/That would make your
blood run cold; The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,/But the
queerest they ever did see Was the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge/
When I cremated Sam McGee

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 04:55, android wrote:

> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> hook up a screen of your choice!

This assumes Apple wants the Mini and separate screens to continue to be
part of its product lineup (along with MacPro). Apple is a mass market
company, not someone like IBM, so you cannot count on a product strategy
to be long term.

Nothing wrong with buying a mini or macpro with separate screen today if
those fit your needs. But I have learned the hard way with my purchase
of expensive xserve to not trust that Apple will continue a product line
that is not mass produced.


The mini and MacPro have slower product refresh cycle which means that
depending on when you buy it, you may have the latest/greatest chip, or
a fairly old one because the model hasn't been updated in a while.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 08:17, Alfred Molon wrote:

> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?

With Windows now supporting EFI, is "Bootcamp" still necessary ?

I realise that Apple may still need to provide Mac hardware specific
drivers for the Windows OS, but just wondering if the initial boot still
needs special handling that Windows can't do on its own.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-24, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 04:55, android wrote:
>
>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>
> This assumes Apple wants the Mini and separate screens to continue to be
> part of its product lineup (along with MacPro).

No, it doesn't make any such assumption. And there are no signs that
Apple will drop the Mac mini or Mac Pro. You are spreading FUD as usual.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-24, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-24 08:17, Alfred Molon wrote:
>
>> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
>
> With Windows now supporting EFI, is "Bootcamp" still necessary ?

Of course, but since it is built-in there is no need to attempt to do
without.

[android]

In article <slrnnaacf8....@amelia.local>,

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

Dr Merckwurdigerlibe was a goood movie...
--
teleportation kills

[android]

In article <56a5337c$0$15689$c3e8da3$9dec...@news.astraweb.com>,

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-24 04:55, android wrote:
>
> > The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
> > the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
> > hook up a screen of your choice!
>
>
> This assumes Apple wants the Mini and separate screens to continue to be
> part of its product lineup (along with MacPro). Apple is a mass market
> company, not someone like IBM, so you cannot count on a product strategy
> to be long term.

No reason not to use existing options while they exist. It's rather a
signal to the MF that the product is desired.

>
> Nothing wrong with buying a mini or macpro with separate screen today if
> those fit your needs. But I have learned the hard way with my purchase
> of expensive xserve to not trust that Apple will continue a product line
> that is not mass produced.

Soo... you'll get a allinone the next time, if the Mini or Pro is off
the market. Or turn to another supplier. I think that I would do the
latter, but am not sure.

>
> The mini and MacPro have slower product refresh cycle which means that
> depending on when you buy it, you may have the latest/greatest chip, or
> a fairly old one because the model hasn't been updated in a while.

--
teleportation kills

[Alfred Molon]

In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...

> Apple makes the best Windows laptops.

Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

[android]

In article <MPG.310f6431...@news.supernews.com>,

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
> > Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
>
> Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

You can buy W10 from MS if you really want to put Windows on a Mac and
load it through Bootcamp. Most folks that use Macs pay premium for
access to OSX and a minority want's Windows to. Believe it or not but MS
would charge Apple for shipping Macs with W10 installed...
--
teleportation kills

[Lewis]

In message <MPG.310f6431...@news.supernews.com>

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
>> Apple makes the best Windows laptops.

> Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

Because Apple has zero motivation to ship Windows.

--
If puns are outlawed, only outlaws will have puns.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 15:32, Jolly Roger wrote:

> No, it doesn't make any such assumption. And there are no signs that
> Apple will drop the Mac mini or Mac Pro. You are spreading FUD as usual.

And there were no signs Apple would exit the server business. I wouldn't
have gone through the trouble of buying an Xserve if there had been.
(required direct funds tranfer to an Apple bank account, long delivery
wait times due to high demand).


Sorry, but you or your ilk cannot predict what Apple will do tomorrow.
(and if you did, you wouldn't be able to talk about it).

You may be smitten with Apple, but Apple is a corporation and they do
not have nay obligatiosn to continue one product line or the other. It
can be cut any day they wish. And they can launch new products (such as
the 5s replacement) whenever they want.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 17:15, Lewis wrote:

> Because Apple has zero motivation to ship Windows.

Not sure what the antitrust status is, but would Apple be able to sell
some computers with Windows at price X and some with OS-X at price Y ?

Apple would have to pay royalties to Microsoft, and if it must do so
even for machine shipped with OS-X, it would increae price of units (or
decrease profits).

By getting the customer to deal with the purchase of a valid Windows
license, Apple is free to do as it wishes for its computers.

[Mayayana]

| > Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
|
| Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

His statement is heavily biased. If you
could buy Windows on a Dell for, say, $800
or the same thing, on basically the same
hardware, for twice the price, would you
opt for paying an extra $800 to get a little
white Apple logo on your laptop?

Apple's strength is that they control the
whole device, as well as the OS, and can
therefore offer great stability, albeit at the
cost of options. Apple sells boutique devices
to a high-price market. To sell Windows
they'd have to compete with all the other
struggling companies getting thin profit margins
-- HP, Dell, Acer, etc.

They did actually sell OEM Macs at one time.
I have a brother who used to have one. If I
remember correctly, that's one of the things Jobs
shut down when he returned to run the company.
He wasn't a tech person. He was a marketing
person. He knew he'd be better off marketing an
image than competing in the market. And he pulled
it off in spades. Today, Microsoft has little chintzy
stores in the mall while Apple has glass cathedrals
dedicated to handing one's money over to Lord
Jobs. And damned if people don't line up outside
just to get a chance to empty their wallets! ...I
guess we should be grateful that Steve Jobs didn't
decide to take the career route of Jim Jones.

[nospam]

In article <n83jb7$j3n$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

<maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | > Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
> |
> | Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?
>
> His statement is heavily biased.

it's not his statement.

he's referring to pc magazine, who stated that the macbook pro was the
best windows laptop.

pc magazine does indeed have a bias, but it's the *opposite* bias as to
what you're trying to portray.

now why do you think a magazine that caters to the windows crowd chose
a macbook as the best windows laptop?

> If you
> could buy Windows on a Dell for, say, $800
> or the same thing, on basically the same
> hardware, for twice the price, would you
> opt for paying an extra $800 to get a little
> white Apple logo on your laptop?

apple products are competitive for similar specs.

there is *no* premium for an apple logo (which isn't always white
either).

match the specs and the price will be similar. configure it differently
and the lesser spec system will cost less and the better spec system
will cost more. no surprise there.

now go price out a microsoft surfacebook if you want to see what
premium pricing means.

> Apple's strength is that they control the
> whole device, as well as the OS, and can
> therefore offer great stability,

that is a huge, huge advantage and something other companies are
realizing, including microsoft, samsung and others.

why would someone want a computer that's not stable and keeps crashing
or is difficult to configure and maintain?

> albeit at the
> cost of options.

wrong on that too.

> Apple sells boutique devices
> to a high-price market. To sell Windows
> they'd have to compete with all the other
> struggling companies getting thin profit margins
> -- HP, Dell, Acer, etc.

you mean like microsoft does with their surfacebook?

> They did actually sell OEM Macs at one time.
> I have a brother who used to have one. If I
> remember correctly, that's one of the things Jobs
> shut down when he returned to run the company.
> He wasn't a tech person. He was a marketing
> person. He knew he'd be better off marketing an
> image than competing in the market. And he pulled
> it off in spades.

the mac clones were shut down because they were a disaster.

> Today, Microsoft has little chintzy
> stores in the mall while Apple has glass cathedrals
> dedicated to handing one's money over to Lord
> Jobs. And damned if people don't line up outside
> just to get a chance to empty their wallets!

people also line up for windows, along with all sorts of other stuff.
ever been to the mall on black friday, before stores open?

<https://twitter.com/History_Pics/status/638347514861735936>

> ...I guess we should be grateful that Steve Jobs didn't
> decide to take the career route of Jim Jones.

idiot.

[nospam]

In article <240120162304326901%timst...@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater

<timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> >I guess we should be grateful that Steve Jobs didn't
> >decide to take the career route of Jim Jones.
>

> Who's he?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones>
James Warren "Jim" Jones (May 13, 1931 ­ November 18, 1978) was an
American cult leader. Jones was the founder and leader of the Peoples
Temple, best known for the mass murder-suicide in November 1978 of
918 of its members in Jonestown, Guyana,[1] the murder of Congressman
Leo Ryan, and the ordering of four additional Temple member deaths in
Georgetown, the Guyanese capital. Nearly three-hundred children were
murdered at Jonestown, almost all of them by cyanide poisoning.[2]
Jones died from a gunshot wound to the head; it is suspected his
death was a suicide.

[Neill Massello]

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
> Windows machines.

Your thread was hijacked to the comp.sys.mac.system newsgroup beginning
with android's message of 24 Jan 2016 10:55:58 +0100
<here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>.

That's why you're getting all the unwanted Mac responses. I suggest that
you just ignore them and remove comp.sys.mac.system from the Newsgroups
header for any future posts you make in this thread.

[Alan Baker]

Couple of questions:

When did you buy your Xserve? What model was it?

When did Apple exit the market?

When did they stop making parts for your Xserve available?

[Alan Browne]

On 2016-01-24 15:21, Lewis wrote:
> In message <-Nmdneu6Z95ndTnL...@giganews.com>
> Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2016-01-24 09:46, David Taylor wrote:
>>> On 24/01/2016 13:17, Alfred Molon wrote:
>>>> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>>>>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>>>>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>>>>
>>>> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
>>>
>>> Yes, for example Dell offer 23-inch and 24-inch units. Their latest:
>>>
>>> http://www.dell.com/uk/p/inspiron-24-7459-aio/pd?ref=PD_Family
>>>
>>> Doubtless other manufacturers offer something similar. "All-in-one"
>>> appears to be Dell's key phrase for these PCs.
>>>
>>> http://www.dell.com/uk/p/desktops
>>>
>>> The units have just a full HD display, though.
>
>> Indeed ... so coarse Dell seem embarrassed to list the pixel dimensions
>> on that impressive-to-the-innocent page of specs.
>
>> It's likely 1080 which is pretty coarse by today's standards.
>
>> My ancient (2012) iMac (27") is 2560 x 1440 and an up to date iMac
>> retina is 4096 x 2304 pixels.
>
> No. It is 5120x2880 (exactly double the non-retina in each direction).

Indeed, I was on the the 21.5 Retina spec w/o realizing it. Should have
spotted the 4096 as not being "5k".


--
"But I am somehow extraordinarily lucky, for a guy with shitty luck."
..Harrison Ford, Rolling Stone - 2015-12-02

[Alan Browne]

On 2016-01-24 17:26, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 17:15, Lewis wrote:
>
>> Because Apple has zero motivation to ship Windows.
>
> Not sure what the antitrust status is, but would Apple be able to sell
> some computers with Windows at price X and some with OS-X at price Y ?
>
> Apple would have to pay royalties to Microsoft

No, just the usual license fee, which for Apple would be tiny for the
volume v. what you would pay to get the same license.

But of course that's just inanity as Apple have no interest in pushing
Windows in the first place and more importantly they've effectively 0
priced the license for OS X over the past few years whether as included
or bought as an upgrade.

> By getting the customer to deal with the purchase of a valid Windows
> license, Apple is free to do as it wishes for its computers.

Apple's strategy has nothing to with Windows at all. Including Bootcamp
is solely a means to get crossover customers comfortable with the
transition period.

[Eric Stevens]

Two of my daughters and one grand daughter have recently bought new
computers and laptops. All bought Apple. I don't think any of them
knew, or gave a thought about, the price of alternative equipment.
Certainly none of them gave thought as to whether or not they were
paying a premium. Nor would any of them know.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Your Name]

In article <MPG.310f6431...@news.supernews.com>, Alfred Molon
<alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
> >
> > Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
>
> Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

Because that would be like buying a Ferrari and sticking a lawnmower
engine in it. ;-)

[Your Name]

In article <1mhjdi1.ziqakt1s498owN%nmas...@yahoo.com>, Neill Massello

The real reason is that the topic is "all-in-one PCs" in a digital
photography newsgroup ... Apple makes the best all-in-one and has
established itself as the best for digital media.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 18:37, Alan Baker wrote:

> When did you buy your Xserve? What model was it?

mid 2009. Was the mid 2009 model.

> When did Apple exit the market?

Announced fall 2009, end of sales january 2010.

> When did they stop making parts for your Xserve available?

Within a few months after end of sales. I did manage to get a 2tb drive
in 2010. But when I tried to replace the 1tb with 2tb a while later, I
was told "nop, can't do that anymore".

Only those on support contracts can get replacement pats, but cannot
obtain new disks, new options.


The caddies are properitary and will not "connect" to current SATA
drives (either the electronics in the caddy which translates SATA to
SAS, or the SAS controller inside machine).

Apple nevere sold "open" caddies so that after EOS, customers could at
least update disk drives themselves.

[Neill Massello]

Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> The real reason is that the topic is "all-in-one PCs" in a digital
> photography newsgroup ... Apple makes the best all-in-one and has
> established itself as the best for digital media.

Sorry, no. Adding a newsgroup to an existing thread, as opposed to
trying to move it to a more appropriate group via a Followup-To header,
is something that should almost never be done. It was wrong to do it
here.

[Your Name]

In article <1mhjjwn.pt1ily73afeN%nmas...@yahoo.com>, Neill Massello

Except both are "appropriate" newsgroups, so the "Followup-To" isn't
relevant.

[Jolly Roger]

Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
>> Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
>
> Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

Because most of their customers naturally prefer OS X because they believe
it's superior.

[Jolly Roger]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 15:32, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> No, it doesn't make any such assumption. And there are no signs that
>> Apple will drop the Mac mini or Mac Pro. You are spreading FUD as usual.
>
> And there were no signs Apple would exit the server business.

Not the same thing. Apple won't be exiting the desktop computer business
for the foreseeable future.

> Sorry, but you or your ilk cannot predict what Apple will do tomorrow.

Neither can you. And the fact is Apple’s sales growth in desktop computers
has outpaced the industry for the entire past decade with no signs of
slowing.

> (and if you did, you wouldn't be able to talk about it).
>
> You may be smitten with Apple

Irrelevant. Your posting history shows you have very little understanding
of what makes Apple tick, and you spread FUD and misinformation at every
turn.

> Apple is a corporation and they do
> not have nay obligatiosn to continue one product line or the other. It
> can be cut any day they wish.

Macs are central to the digital hub concept that Apple has adopted and
followed since Steve Jobs announced it on stage back in 2001. Apple sees
their desktop computers as the central link between all of the devices in
your life. Macs aren't going away any time soon.

[Jolly Roger]

Arguably true.

[Jolly Roger]

Neill Massello <nmas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
>> Windows machines.
>
> Your thread was hijacked to the comp.sys.mac.system newsgroup beginning
> with android's message of 24 Jan 2016 10:55:58 +0100
> <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>.

Yes, and we here in the Mac newsgroups wish android would just go away.
Don't blame his idiocy on the rest of us, please.

[Jolly Roger]

Sure, but the suggestion of the iMac on its own was perfectly acceptable
and on-topic.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-24 23:55, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Not the same thing. Apple won't be exiting the desktop computer business
> for the foreseeable future.

It could exit the mini or MacPro business tomorrow and keep the iMac. It
could switch the iMac to ARM and go IOS. We don't know.

What we hope Apple does is not necessarily equal to what Apple actually
does.

Consider the rumour Aple is gonna ditch the 3,5mm stereo plugs for
earphone. It *can* do that. And it may lose a certain % of customers
because of that, just as it did when it exited the server market, and
slowed down refresh cycles for the MacPro and eliminitated storage
options for the MacPro.

Apple makes the decisions, not you. So you cannot predict which product
or feature will stay, which will go.

> Neither can you. And the fact is Apple’s sales growth in desktop computers
> has outpaced the industry for the entire past decade with no signs of
> slowing.

But this is no garantee that a particular product line such as the Mini
is here to stay in the long run. This does not mean that Apple will keep
hard drive capabilities in any of its machines. It has already ditched
CD/DVD, and starting to ditch ethernet.

What I am saying is that one cannot choose a particulra Apple product
based on hopes that that product line will continue for a long time,
especially when products such as Mini or MacPro are niche products.

> Irrelevant. Your posting history shows you have very little understanding
> of what makes Apple tick, and you spread FUD and misinformation at every
> turn.

No, you go out of your way to twist everything into insults instead of
responding with intelligent conversations.

> Macs are central to the digital hub concept that Apple has adopted

There is some debate on that as Apple is moving everything to "the
cloud" and reducing synching capabilities with Itunes by default since
it wants its iPhone to synch to the cloud etc.

Again, what is available today does not garantee will be available next
year.

Macs are becoming edge devices just as the iPhone, iPad and AppleTV. The
cloud is at the core now.

Yes, I can still disbale the cloud and still have the mac as the core,
but I know this is fighting a losing battle because Apple is moving in
the cloud direction.

[Jolly Roger]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 23:55, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> Not the same thing. Apple won't be exiting the desktop computer business
>> for the foreseeable future.
>
> It could exit the mini or MacPro business tomorrow and keep the iMac.

The world could end tomorrow too. That's no reason to kill yourselves
today. If you are in the market for a Mac desktop computer, you buy what is
currently available. That's all there is to it.

[useless blather & FUD omitted]

>> Irrelevant. Your posting history shows you have very little understanding
>> of what makes Apple tick, and you spread FUD and misinformation at every
>> turn.
>
> No, you go out of your way to twist everything into insults instead of
> responding with intelligent conversations.

If your conversations were intelligent there'd be no need to correct your
misinformation and FUD. You bring it on yourself.

>> Macs are central to the digital hub concept that Apple has adopted
>
> There is some debate on that

Your little debate doesn't negate it.

> Macs are becoming edge devices

Just because you say so, eh? Right.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-25 00:18, Jolly Roger wrote:

> The world could end tomorrow too. That's no reason to kill yourselves
> today. If you are in the market for a Mac desktop computer, you buy what is
> currently available. That's all there is to it.

The argument was made to choose separate computer/displays (aka: mini +
displays) because of future upgradability. My argument is that you
cannot bet your life on those products being available in the future
from Apple.

So yes, byty what fits your needs and what is available today. But
unless you are buying from a company like IBM, don't count on a certain
type of product still being avaiulable from a consumer products company
like Apple when you are ready to upgrade a few years from now.

(I am not mentioning companies like HP, Dell and others because they are
in same boat, and I'd say HP much worse).

[Jolly Roger]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-25 00:18, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> The world could end tomorrow too. That's no reason to kill yourselves
>> today. If you are in the market for a Mac desktop computer, you buy what is
>> currently available. That's all there is to it.
>
> The argument was made to choose separate computer/displays (aka: mini +
> displays) because of future upgradability.

If you purchase the computer, display, and other components separately, and
just one of them is no longer available, at least you don't have to replace
all of them at once.

> My argument is that you
> cannot bet your life on those products being available in the future
> from Apple.

Nonsense. You can't bet on any products from any consumer company being
available in the future. And that goes for any model, whether it is an
all-in-one or not. Get what is available today when you need it.

[android]

In article <u9paabh825v68tvhu...@4ax.com>,

Give the girls some credit. They paid more for their laptops so that
they could use OSX. If they wanted Windows they would have bought
Lenovo. Good stuff too. I'm sure that they know the difference in OS and
price.
--
teleportation kills

[android]

In article <dglogn...@mid.individual.net>,

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Neill Massello <nmas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> But I'm surprised that you suggest a Mac, when almost everybody is using
> >> Windows machines.
> >
> > Your thread was hijacked to the comp.sys.mac.system newsgroup beginning
> > with android's message of 24 Jan 2016 10:55:58 +0100
> > <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>.
>
> Yes, and we here in the Mac newsgroups wish android would just go away.
> Don't blame his idiocy on the rest of us, please.

I stop for accidents!
--
teleportation kills

[android]

In article <dglnf9...@mid.individual.net>,

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
> >> Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
> >
> > Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?
>
> Because most of their customers naturally prefer OS X because they believe
> it's superior.

I've already informed Alfred about that. Stop wasting bandwidth!
--
teleportation kills

[Alan Baker]

Ummm...


You DO realize that IBM exited the PC business completely... ...right?

[Eric Stevens]

They know zilch about the relative merits of OSX: in just the same way
as they know zilch about the price or merits of any equipment outside
the Apple range. Their attitudes are as polarised as those of many in
this news group: it's Apple or nothing.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

[Alan Baker]

And yet you never really examine WHY they feel that way beyond, "they
must be brainwashed"...

[Neill Massello]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Sure, but the suggestion of the iMac on its own was perfectly acceptable
> and on-topic.

Yes, in rec.photo.digital.

[Neill Massello]

Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> Except both are "appropriate" newsgroups

But the OP gets to pick the forum. Unless it's not appropriate, the
thread should be left where it started.

[Calum]

On 24/01/2016 15:09, Alfred Molon wrote:
> In article <here-013250.1...@news.individual.net>, android
> says...
>> Why?
>
> Very simple - I don't have any Mac software. And I have no clue whether
> and how Windows will run on a Mac.
>
> If Apple were offering Macs with preinstalled Windows (why aren't
> they?)

Because that would entail additional licensing, manufacturing and
support costs, some of which would be passed on to the majority of
customers who have no need to ever run Windows on their Apple hardware.

[Lewis]

In message <Qq6dnXzBeLPi_DjL...@giganews.com>

Alan Browne <alan....@freelunchvideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 17:26, JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2016-01-24 17:15, Lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Because Apple has zero motivation to ship Windows.
>>
>> Not sure what the antitrust status is, but would Apple be able to sell
>> some computers with Windows at price X and some with OS-X at price Y ?
>>
>> Apple would have to pay royalties to Microsoft

> No, just the usual license fee, which for Apple would be tiny for the
> volume v. what you would pay to get the same license.

You are unfamiliar with MSFT's licensing then. They require payment of a
license for *every* computer a company makes, regardless of if it is
shipped with Windows or not. They did this to try to prevent PC Makers
from selling linux machines.


--
Love is strange and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the
smooth I suppose

[Lewis]

In message <56a5adc1$0$32030$c3e8da3$a909...@news.astraweb.com>

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-24 23:55, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> Not the same thing. Apple won't be exiting the desktop computer business
>> for the foreseeable future.

> It could exit the mini or MacPro business tomorrow and keep the iMac. It
> could switch the iMac to ARM and go IOS. We don't know.

And pigs could sprout horns and call themselves unicorns, which is only
slightly less likely than your doom and gloom FUD.

>> Irrelevant. Your posting history shows you have very little understanding
>> of what makes Apple tick, and you spread FUD and misinformation at every
>> turn.

> No, you go out of your way to twist everything into insults instead of
> responding with intelligent conversations.

It is not possible to have an intelligent conversation unless everyone
in the conversation is intelligent. You are a baboon. Do the math.

>> Macs are central to the digital hub concept that Apple has adopted

> There is some debate on that as Apple is moving everything to "the

And there is your doom and gloom FUD bullshit again.

> cloud" and reducing synching capabilities with Itunes by default since
> it wants its iPhone to synch to the cloud etc.

Utter bullshit and lies, as usual.


--
Q is for QUENTIN who sank in the mire
R is for RHODA consumed by a fire

[Lewis]

In message <56a5c00e$0$60251$c3e8da3$b135...@news.astraweb.com>

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> So yes, byty what fits your needs and what is available today. But
> unless you are buying from a company like IBM

Yeah! Let me run right out and buy an IBM laptop.

Oh wait.

--
Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'. --The Last Continent

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:01:35 +1300, Eric Stevens

Notice of full disclosure: I have not read all posts in this thread,
do not recall what was in the posts I did read, or give a shit if
anything I will say on the subject has been said before.

Now, to the shiny bit...I subscribe to a mailing list of local
"meet-ups" for people engaged in photography and graphics programs.
Small groups meet in restaurants and libraries and other places for
informal sessions. A few weeks ago, one group of Adobe Illustrator
users announced a "show your work" meet-up.

Someone added a message saying he did not own a laptop and asked for a
recommendation on what to buy. One of the replies said (I'm
paraphrasing because I deleted the original) "Buy a Mac if you want to
fit in. Nobody will think you're serious about it if you don't have a
Mac".

Additional notice of full disclosure: I neither agree nor disagree
with the advice offered or the validity of the statement.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[PAS]

On 1/24/2016 4:44 PM, Alfred Molon wrote:
> In article <slrnnaacgt....@amelia.local>, Lewis says...
>> Apple makes the best Windows laptops.
> Why don't they deliver them with Windows on them?

Why would a company that offers a perfectly good OS want to add to the
coffers of a competitor? Apple would have to pay for a Windows license
to have it preinstalled on their systems.

[PAS]

On 1/24/2016 9:01 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <MPG.310eed3c5...@news.supernews.com>
> Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In article <here-6E285B.1...@news.individual.net>, android
>> says...
>>> The consensus is that if you really want an all in one then the iMac is
>>> the way to go... The real way to go is, however to buy a Mini Mac and
>>> hook up a screen of your choice!
>> Fine, but is there anything with Windows?
> Who cares?
>

Who cares? They OP who wants a Windows machine, not a Mac.

[Sandman]

In article <ecgcablj1l3ui23vk...@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper wrote:

> > Eric Stevens:

> > They know zilch about the relative merits of OSX: in just the same
> > way as they know zilch about the price or merits of any equipment
> > outside the Apple range. Their attitudes are as polarised as those
> > of many in this news group: it's Apple or nothing.

> I subscribe to a mailing list of local "meet-ups" for people engaged
> in photography and graphics programs. Small groups meet in
> restaurants and libraries and other places for informal sessions. A
> few weeks ago, one group of Adobe Illustrator users announced a
> "show your work" meet-up.

> Someone added a message saying he did not own a laptop and asked for
> a recommendation on what to buy. One of the replies said (I'm
> paraphrasing because I deleted the original) "Buy a Mac if you want
> to fit in. Nobody will think you're serious about it if you don't
> have a Mac".

This is true for a lot of niches. I.e. if you're a gamer and show up a LAN
party with a Mac, no one will (rightfully) think you're a serious gamer. If
you're a developer and arrive at an open source conference with a Mac or
Windows PC, no one will think you're a serious open source developer.

Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one will think
you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer. Rhymes pretty good with
my experience as well.

--
Sandman

[Alan Browne]

Sounds like BS, but please cite. And Apple would, IAC, tell MS to pack
sand.

Note that various companies sell both Windows and pre-loaded Linux
machines. The prices of the Linux machines being lower in part due to
the lack of MS license.

In the hypothetical case of Apple shipping computers with Windows, Apple
would be paying a tiny amount v. what you or I would pay for the OEM
license.

intel required computer co's to put the intel inside logo on their
computers. Ever see one on a Mac?

--
"But I am somehow extraordinarily lucky, for a guy with shitty luck."
..Harrison Ford, Rolling Stone - 2015-12-02

[nospam]

In article <sandman-8dc640788fbf...@individual.net>,

Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:

>
> > Someone added a message saying he did not own a laptop and asked for
> > a recommendation on what to buy. One of the replies said (I'm
> > paraphrasing because I deleted the original) "Buy a Mac if you want
> > to fit in. Nobody will think you're serious about it if you don't
> > have a Mac".
>
> This is true for a lot of niches. I.e. if you're a gamer and show up a LAN
> party with a Mac, no one will (rightfully) think you're a serious gamer.

that part is true

> If
> you're a developer and arrive at an open source conference with a Mac or
> Windows PC, no one will think you're a serious open source developer.

you haven't been to any tech conferences lately. they're mostly macs
because it's unix under the hood.

> Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one will think
> you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer. Rhymes pretty good with
> my experience as well.

that part is also true.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-25, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:

> If you're a developer and arrive at an open source conference with a
> Mac or Windows PC, no one will think you're a serious open source
> developer.

On the contrary, I am and work with open source developers, and *many*
of us use Macs and bring them to conferences. Take a look at any recent
picture of the audience at said conferences as proof.

[Tony Cooper]

I find that difficult to understand regarding Photoshop. I consider
myself to be somewhat serious about my use of Photoshop, but - as far
as I know - there's nothing that I could do in Photoshop using a Mac
that I can't do using Windows. There is no inherent limitation on the
use of Photoshop because it is being used on a Windows machine.

I can understand that if I would show up with a Windows laptop at a
Photoshop meet-up that there would be an assumption that I am not
employed in the field, though. Even that is not a particularly valid
assumption, but it may be a common assumption.

[PAS]

Maybe this lends itself to the idea that some Mac users are just snobs?

[Sandman]

In article <dgn576...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger wrote:

> > Sandman:

> > If you're a developer and arrive at an open source conference with a
> > Mac or Windows PC, no one will think you're a serious open source
> > developer.
>
> On the contrary, I am and work with open source developers, and
> *many* of us use Macs and bring them to conferences. Take a look at
> any recent picture of the audience at said conferences as proof.

Yeah, I take it back. It's been a while since I've been to specifically an open
source conference. Plus, it may actually differ between US and Sweden (Linux is
a tad bit stronger in Sweden/Finland).

It's like I've always said - Windows PC for gaming and Mac for everything else
:)

--
Sandman

[Sandman]

In article <hrncab1762ehqbuhq...@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper wrote:

> > > > Eric Stevens:
> > > > They know zilch about the relative merits of
> > > > OSX: in just the same way as they know zilch about the price
> > > > or merits of any equipment outside the Apple range. Their
> > > > attitudes are as polarised as those of many in this news
> > > > group: it's Apple or nothing.
> > >

> > > Tony Cooper:

> > > I subscribe to a mailing list of local "meet-ups" for people
> > > engaged in photography and graphics programs. Small groups meet
> > > in restaurants and libraries and other places for informal
> > > sessions. A few weeks ago, one group of Adobe Illustrator users
> > > announced a "show your work" meet-up.
> >
> > > Someone added a message saying he did not own a laptop and asked
> > > for a recommendation on what to buy. One of the replies said
> > > (I'm paraphrasing because I deleted the original) "Buy a Mac if
> > > you want to fit in. Nobody will think you're serious about it if
> > > you don't have a Mac".
> >

> > Sandman:

> > This is true for a lot of niches. I.e. if you're a gamer and show
> > up a LAN party with a Mac, no one will (rightfully) think you're a
> > serious gamer. If you're a developer and arrive at an open source
> > conference with a Mac or Windows PC, no one will think you're a
> > serious open source developer.
>
> > Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one
> > will think you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer.
> > Rhymes pretty good with my experience as well.
>
> I find that difficult to understand regarding Photoshop. I consider
> myself to be somewhat serious about my use of Photoshop

Only, you're not. You're what, a retired accountant (?) that takes a photo now
and then and like tinkering around in PS with your photos. Not meant in a
derogatory way. People serious about graphics, advertising, illustration etc
etc tend to gravitate towards Macs.

> but - as far as I know - there's nothing that I could do in
> Photoshop using a Mac that I can't do using Windows. There is no
> inherent limitation on the use of Photoshop because it is being used
> on a Windows machine.

Well, depends on what you mean by "limitation". I don't think there is a
limitation for you, no, but for someone using it professionally, the Mac and
its inherent workflow and system services makes it beneficial for graphics
artists.

Just the system-wide and ubiquitous drag'n'drop support is first class and when
dealing with graphics this quickly proves very useful. I know you don't use it,
but I bet if you had started using Macs instead of Windows, it would be second
nature to you.

--
Sandman

[Sandman]

In article <n85nbm$fc4$2...@dont-email.me>, PAS wrote:

> > Tony Cooper:

> > I find that difficult to understand regarding Photoshop. I
> > consider myself to be somewhat serious about my use of Photoshop,
> > but - as far as I know - there's nothing that I could do in
> > Photoshop using a Mac that I can't do using Windows. There is no
> > inherent limitation on the use of Photoshop because it is being
> > used on a Windows machine.
>
> > I can understand that if I would show up with a Windows laptop at
> > a Photoshop meet-up that there would be an assumption that I am
> > not employed in the field, though. Even that is not a particularly
> > valid assumption, but it may be a common assumption.
>
> Maybe this lends itself to the idea that some Mac users are just
> snobs?

Some are, of course. I know of very few, though. Just like there are some
Windows users that are ignorant assholes as well :)

--
Sandman

[Alfred Molon]

In article <dglnf9...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger says...

> Because most of their customers naturally prefer OS X because they believe
> it's superior.

Maybe. To me OS X and Windows look the same.

But then I would also buy a Hyunday car instead of an Audi or BMW,
because the Hyundai car is good enough for my purposes and is cheaper.
--
Alfred Molon

Olympus E-series DSLRs and micro 4/3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

[Alfred Molon]

In article <n85hg4$hi4$1...@dont-email.me>, PAS says...

> Why would a company that offers a perfectly good OS want to add to the
> coffers of a competitor?

Because then perhaps I might buy an iMac :-)

[Alan Baker]

I believe you'll find they stopped that practice after the anti-trust
action against them...

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-25, Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <dglnf9...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger says...
>>
>> Because most of their customers naturally prefer OS X because they believe
>> it's superior.
>
> Maybe. To me OS X and Windows look the same.
>
> But then I would also buy a Hyunday car instead of an Audi or BMW,
> because the Hyundai car is good enough for my purposes and is cheaper.

In both cases, the choice is about far more than just superficial
differences (looks). Generally people who do not have much experience
with *both* tend not to appreciate those differences because they
haven't experienced them personally to build appreciation for them. I
have no problem with people choosing Hyundais - competition is good; but
I'll stick with my BMW. : )

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-25, Alfred Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <n85hg4$hi4$1...@dont-email.me>, PAS says...
>> Why would a company that offers a perfectly good OS want to add to the
>> coffers of a competitor?
>
> Because then perhaps I might buy an iMac :-)

That's never been an obstacle for me. You can easily install and run
Windows on any recent Mac; you just have to purchase Windows separately
or use your existing Windows license code. I run all of the above
operating systems on my Macs.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-25 02:59, Alan Baker wrote:

> You DO realize that IBM exited the PC business completely... ...right?

I was thinking of IBM's mainframe business where stability is one of the
big assets that allow for long term planning.

But IBM selling its PC business to Lenovo is another example of not
being able to count on your supplioer of commodity items to continue a
particular product line.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-25, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-25 02:59, Alan Baker wrote:
>
>> You DO realize that IBM exited the PC business completely... ...right?
>
> I was thinking of IBM's mainframe business

Apple is primarily a consumer company, and Macs aren't going anywhere
any time soon.

> But IBM selling its PC business to Lenovo is another example of not
> being able to count on your supplioer of commodity items to continue a
> particular product line.

Irrelevant. Buy what is available today.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-25 11:49, Alan Browne wrote:

> Sounds like BS, but please cite. And Apple would, IAC, tell MS to pack
> sand.

Microsoft did have a "you must pay for Windows license for every
computer you make". But I am not sure if this is still applicable after
the antitrust process that was made against mcirosoft in USA and Europe.

> intel required computer co's to put the intel inside logo on their
> computers. Ever see one on a Mac?

No, it was not a "requirememnt". It was co-marketing agreement where the
computer maker got many financial benefiots from Intel in exchange for
having the "intel inside" logo on machines as well as advertising.

Apple apparently chose to not participate in this and probably
negotiated just as good a price on chips as Dell and others who do
participate in the co markleting deals.

[Alan Browne]

On 2016-01-25 14:09, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2016-01-25 11:49, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> intel required computer co's to put the intel inside logo on their
>> computers. Ever see one on a Mac?
>
> No, it was not a "requirememnt". It was co-marketing agreement where the
> computer maker got many financial benefiots from Intel in exchange for
> having the "intel inside" logo on machines as well as advertising.

Stating the obvious is so you, JF.

[Alan Baker]

On 1/25/16 11:04 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2016-01-25 02:59, Alan Baker wrote:
>
>> You DO realize that IBM exited the PC business completely... ...right?
>
> I was thinking of IBM's mainframe business where stability is one of the
> big assets that allow for long term planning.
>

So you're basically thinking of a totally different market where
different rules would naturally apply.

> But IBM selling its PC business to Lenovo is another example of not
> being able to count on your supplioer of commodity items to continue a
> particular product line.
>

So in the personal computer market, your example is no example at all.

[Your Name]

In article <MPG.311088a9f...@news.supernews.com>, Alfred

Molon <alfred...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <dglnf9...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger says...
> >
> > Because most of their customers naturally prefer OS X because they believe
> > it's superior.
>
> Maybe. To me OS X and Windows look the same.

You seriously need glasses and fast!

These days, thanks to Microsloth's on-going copying, Windoze and Mac OS
X do work in very similar ways, but they *look* completely different.

> But then I would also buy a Hyunday car instead of an Audi or BMW,
> because the Hyundai car is good enough for my purposes and is cheaper.

It may be good enough for your purposes, but the Hyundai is cheaper
because it doesn't have the same level of equipment as the BMW or Audi.

[JF Mezei]

On 2016-01-25 14:05, Jolly Roger wrote:

> Apple is primarily a consumer company, and Macs aren't going anywhere
> any time soon.

But the shape/form factor of the units that are available will likely
change, as will what sort of connectors remain available on those boxes.

> Irrelevant. Buy what is available today.

Yes and everyone agrees with this. The discussion is whether you should
choose today's machine's based on what you expect will remain available
in the future.

[Your Name]

In article <56a672ea$0$62680$c3e8da3$dbd...@news.astraweb.com>, JF

Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2016-01-25 11:49, Alan Browne wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like BS, but please cite. And Apple would, IAC, tell MS to pack
> > sand.
>
> Microsoft did have a "you must pay for Windows license for every
> computer you make". But I am not sure if this is still applicable after
> the antitrust process that was made against mcirosoft in USA and Europe.

Yep. Microsloth makes money via the licensing fee. It's pretty much the
only way Windoze makes money these days since (thanks to again copying
Apple) regular users can upgrade for free.

Apparently Microsloth will soon only allow Windoze to be put on
computers certified by them ... no doubt that process will cost
manufacturers even more in fees.

[PeterN]

On 1/25/2016 11:41 AM, Sandman wrote:


<snip>

>
> Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one will think
> you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer. Rhymes pretty good with
> my experience as well.
>

Graphics professionals don't give a rats rear end about your tools. All
they care about is results.


--
PeterN

[nospam]

In article <n85vf...@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN

<pete...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one will think
> > you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer. Rhymes pretty good
> > with
> > my experience as well.
> >
>
> Graphics professionals don't give a rats rear end about your tools. All
> they care about is results.

better tools lets them produce better results in less time.

they don't have time to fuck around with second rate equipment.

[Sandman]

In article <n85vf...@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN wrote:

> <snip>

> > Sandman:

> > Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one
> > will think you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer.
> > Rhymes pretty good with my experience as well.
>
> Graphics professionals don't give a rats rear end about your tools.

Graphics professional care about what tools they use themselves, and will
consequently regard you as less serious if you're in the same line of work and
not using the state of the art tools for the work.

--
Sandman

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 15:12:47 -0500, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <n85vf...@news4.newsguy.com>, PeterN
><pete...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> > Same with graphics. If you're a photoshop/illustrator user no one will think
>> > you're serious if you show up with a Windows computer. Rhymes pretty good
>> > with
>> > my experience as well.
>> >
>>
>> Graphics professionals don't give a rats rear end about your tools. All
>> they care about is results.
>
>better tools lets them produce better results in less time.

What tools are better in Photoshop when used on a Mac than they are
when used on a Windows machine?

>they don't have time to fuck around with second rate equipment.

The statement was about tools, not hardware.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2016-01-25, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-25 14:05, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> Apple is primarily a consumer company, and Macs aren't going anywhere
>> any time soon.
>
> But the shape/form factor of the units that are available will likely
> change, as will what sort of connectors remain available on those boxes.

Uh huh. First you claim one should use caution purchasing Mac minis and
iMacs because they could go away in the future, and now you claim we
should avoid them because the shape and form factor may change. By all
means, keep moving the goal posts and spreading FUD since that's what
you are good at. Just don't expect the rest of us to go along with your
nonsensical blather.

>> Irrelevant. Buy what is available today.
>
> Yes and everyone agrees with this. The discussion is whether you should
> choose today's machine's based on what you expect will remain available
> in the future.

No, that's *your* trollish discussion. The rest of us have no such silly
concerns.