WB.96 leth sure seems low
Mike Teague
: Don't it?
: Tark
Definately... the first fight I got into last night, I let the guy get on
my 6 and shoot away... I took 8 pings, and no damage. the 9th started my
oil leaking...
Cannon fire, mind you... From 400-500 yds.
--
Mike Teague
yng...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~yngwie
Ka On Lee
> Definately... the first fight I got into last night, I let the guy get on
> my 6 and shoot away... I took 8 pings, and no damage. the 9th started my
> oil leaking...
> Cannon fire, mind you... From 400-500 yds.
Depend on what you fly. Now the P-38 got paper elevator make it easier to
kill than before.
| _ | Ka On Lee
|_(0)_|
------==<[\-(.)-/]>==------ ko...@chat.carleton.ca
^ \#/o o\#/ ^ al...@freenet.carleton.ca
' ` WB: f-16
Joe Enzminger
Also never got headoned, tho many tried. I love it!!!!!
Joe Enzminger
{{Quiz}}
Michael Weber
>Don't it?
>Tark
Tark,
Since I am on the recieving end more often than the dealing end (Hey,
I'm working on it!) I don't mind :-)
I did however suvive a fight with a FW190. Had LOTS of pings but none
crippled me. I was in an F4, that could be the reason, but that FW has
an awful lot of BIG guns.
Hope I do better than the sap who had me dead to rights then ran outta
ammo (I guess, he eventually stopped shooting :-)
Later,
Michael Weber
Gryf / Gryffon XO,<VMF-214>
Visit the VMF-214 Page at HTTP://llama.jpl.nasa.gov/vmf214/index.htm
"it is a darn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word" Thomas Jefferson
Tarkus
Tark
CJ Smut Martin
I smell a troll....
<bg>
Smut
----------
CJ Martin, ex-AT2 USN | Callsign Smut on WarBirds
Former Tomcat Tweaker | XO, <Flying Pigs> squadron
Ex-Starfighter (VF-33) | "Oink! Oink! To War!"
Visit Smuts WB page at http://atc.ameritel.net/lusers/smut/index.html
Chris Singleton
>tar...@cris.com (Tarkus) wrote:
>>Don't it?
>>Tark
>Tark,
>Since I am on the recieving end more often than the dealing end (Hey,
>I'm working on it!) I don't mind :-)
>I did however suvive a fight with a FW190. Had LOTS of pings but none
>crippled me. I was in an F4, that could be the reason, but that FW has
>an awful lot of BIG guns.
Those damn things are belt fed guns with a couple wings, aren't they?!
Had a Gold FW on my 6 a couple times last night and it looked like I
was flying in red rain! Thank God it's a bit easier to jink around to
avoid having the plane shot out from around me!
>Hope I do better than the sap who had me dead to rights then ran outta
>ammo (I guess, he eventually stopped shooting :-)
He must have tried someone else with poorer defense tactics than you
'cause I don't think they CAN run out of ammo! <g>
>Later,
>Michael Weber
>Gryf / Gryffon XO,<VMF-214>
>Visit the VMF-214 Page at HTTP://llama.jpl.nasa.gov/vmf214/index.htm
>"it is a darn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word" Thomas Jefferson
Chris Singleton
ICI's WarBirds tm <--- hehehe, damn lawyers....
"spof" of the 900th Squadron
The Warping Jaguars
Our motto is "First, we warp. Then, we kill..."
Mark S. Miller
Teague) wrote:
> Tarkus (tar...@cris.com) wrote:
> : Don't it?
> : Tark
>
> Definately... the first fight I got into last night, I let the guy get on
> my 6 and shoot away... I took 8 pings, and no damage. the 9th started my
> oil leaking...
Hard to tell. I find I can no longer kill in 1 pass. But then again, with
the warps and reduced range and benefit of doubt going to the dweeb up
front in a collision, well, it's kind of tough to tell much of anything.
I think there's more a problem with the hit model than the lethality at
this point. There are shots I've had tonite at range 1-to-3 and the
tracers went right through the damn enema and nothing happened to him.
Sometimes. Sometimes they hit. In a word: unpredictable.
-DoK
--
____________________________________________________________________
Mark S. Miller IV-Q Scummyvale, Fornicalia
"Different things vary." msmi...@lotsofplaces.com
mailto:msmi...@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~msmiller
Jeff Walkup
> Hard to tell. I find I can no longer kill in 1 pass.
You shouldn't be able to *kill* in 1 pass unless it's a very lucky
canopy shot, or it's a Zeke.
> this point. There are shots I've had tonite at range 1-to-3 and the
> tracers went right through the damn enema and nothing happened to him.
Roger this. I've sent tracers right thru planes with no visible
"strike" on my screen. Quite a few times I've been leading an enemy in
a reverse (i.e. scissors), sprayed a 2-sec. burst of both guns in front
of him, and he'll pass right thru my stream like nothing was happening.
I'm getting used to the new gunnery, and am actually getting a lot of my
tracers on the enemy, but this makes it very frustrating...
--
Jeff Walkup . jwa...@crl.com . http://www.crl.com/~jwalkup/
"walk"
James R. Sheridan-Peters
wrote:
>Mark S. Miller wrote:
[snip]
>> this point. There are shots I've had tonite at range 1-to-3 and the
>> tracers went right through the damn enema and nothing happened to him.
>
>Roger this. I've sent tracers right thru planes with no visible
>"strike" on my screen. Quite a few times I've been leading an enemy in
>a reverse (i.e. scissors), sprayed a 2-sec. burst of both guns in front
>of him, and he'll pass right thru my stream like nothing was happening.
Well, Katana, Ming, Pyro and I went up at F12 Saturday to check out
the hit mapping code by flying level and shooting at each other. With
the system configured as it was, you hit a friendly plane and YOU got
the damage so we could visually see the shots we made and get feedback
on what or if we hit.
After almost an hour of rather enjoyable and certainly wierd dogfights
amongst ourselves we all came to the conclusion that while hit-mapping
is accurate, our gunnery needs work.
I found that I could actually target wing-tips and get hits on them
(with a nice cooperative, slow, level target in front <g>). In the
turning dogfights and head-ons I learned that I severely overestimated
the bullet drop on shots from the 6 and 12 o'clock positions (ie. I
aimed too high) and severely underestimated the lead necessary for
turning shots (vs a zeke, say).
I highly recommend finding a quiet field with some friends and working
out for yourselves exactly how everything hangs together. I'm
certainly glad I joined in - when we pay, this will be an expensive
learning method.
Jasper
__________________________________________________________________
James R. Sheridan-Peters jr...@cris.com
Jasper/jrsp on WB
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps."
-- Emo Phillips
Jeff Walkup
> >You shouldn't be able to *kill* in 1 pass unless it's a very lucky
> >canopy shot, or it's a Zeke.
>
No it's not. (Do we wanna discuss this or just negate each other? :)
Okay, I was generalizing. In my experience (which amounts to hundreds
of hours in Fighter Duel - not the PC version!) you are very lucky to
get a full-on *kill* on the first pass. Usually it involves a pilot
kill or a fuel-tank hit on a cheap plane like the Zero. With hardened
planes like the Corsair - you're lucky to shoot them down after 2-3 good
passes! This is as it SHOULD be. Yes, you'll occasionally get a lucky
kill, but usually you'll have to make several passes.
> The bottom line: The hit mapping is Dead On.
I wasn't talking about the hit mapping. I haven't tested it but I've
not noticed any problems with it. I was talking about (as were others)
when you get a hit but it's not registered AT ALL. Seems here like some
of your bullets are being lost. I mean, I could be wrong, but if my
tracers are passing right thru them, I should be hitting them, no? When
I spray a cloud of bullets right in front of them, and they fly right
thru it, at least HALF the time a FEW of the bullets should find the
target, shouldn't they? Well, they're not.
kat...@cris.com
>Mark S. Miller wrote:
>
>> Hard to tell. I find I can no longer kill in 1 pass.
>
>You shouldn't be able to *kill* in 1 pass unless it's a very lucky
>canopy shot, or it's a Zeke.
Very very untrue.
>> this point. There are shots I've had tonite at range 1-to-3 and the
>> tracers went right through the damn enema and nothing happened to him.
>
>Roger this. I've sent tracers right thru planes with no visible
>"strike" on my screen. Quite a few times I've been leading an enemy in
>a reverse (i.e. scissors), sprayed a 2-sec. burst of both guns in front
>of him, and he'll pass right thru my stream like nothing was happening.
A group of us, feeling the same way you and Dok do, spent some time
at F12 last night shooting each other to test the hit mapping. The
beauty of "killshooter" is that any hits or damage you inflict on your
friendly target is reflected to you, so you can tell exactly where
you're hitting.
The bottom line: The hit mapping is Dead On. With practice, you
could fire a single tracer at a specific point of a plane and hit that
exact point (reflected back to you as damage). We were surprised, but
we were WRONG. The hit mapping is perfect. The only thing we have to
blame is our own poor gunnery.
Lethality is also very good, except for .50's. They're a little
weak, and Pyro is working on it.
c==)--Katana----
Musketeer Squadron
>
>I'm getting used to the new gunnery, and am actually getting a lot of my
>tracers on the enemy, but this makes it very frustrating...
Mark S. Miller
> kat...@cris.com wrote:
> > >You shouldn't be able to *kill* in 1 pass unless it's a very lucky
> > >canopy shot, or it's a Zeke.
> >
> > Very very untrue.
>
> No it's not. (Do we wanna discuss this or just negate each other? :)
>
> Okay, I was generalizing. In my experience (which amounts to hundreds
> of hours in Fighter Duel - not the PC version!) you are very lucky to
> get a full-on *kill* on the first pass.
The way another sim' models kills ain't at issue. If, say, a Fw190 comes
in and unloads on a Zeke, and hits with a solid burst of 20mm - that Zeke
better be damn dead, dead, dead. If it hit a wing - wing be gone. If it
hit the tail - tail be gone. Etcetera.
And that is not happening. Or at least it don't appear so.
What is really lacking is offline target drones. Just some big ass hunk of
junk orbitting F1 which reports where you hit it and how well (i.e. big
hit of 20mm, piddly little 7.7mm, whatever). Trying to figure this crap
out in the heat of combat just ain't very deterministic.
This is just an annoyance for us beta-testes now. But when this hawg goes
live and the register starts ringing, you do not want people leaving in
frustration.
SkyWolf
>even logged in disgust at the easy gunnery.
Yeah... but they were anal types.
Some argued strongly that
>it was "just right".
Yeah... but they were wrong.
Others, myself included, argued that if necessary
>they could split the difference and make it 3 inches.
I agree
> IMO, none of this would be as big an issue if the network problems
>could be located. I use CRIS direct, and there's is a noticeable
>jumpiness to all planes at close range. Others have complained about
>this as well. I don't know if it's CRIS, or if it's the host...I just
>know that this weekend it was the worst I've ever seen it.
This is also true.
>c==)--Katana----
>Musketeer Squadron
Mac
<---------------------------------------------------------->
"Gravity is a Harsh Mistress" (The Tick.)
Rmy...@cris.com
SkyWolf -=56=- AW \/ skyw WarBirds (tm)
http://www.cris.com/~rmyers It's SkyWolf's Lair
I will NEVER say "Finger me"
<---------------------------------------------------------->
Mark S. Miller
<jr...@destin.gulfnet.com> wrote:
> Marketing wise, nothing like few thousand dweebs who've been practicing
> target shooting off-line and think they've gotten good enough to fly
> against some of you nuts ;-) who've been doing this for...how long now?
Precisely. Without offline gunnery practice, the dweebs won't really
be sure they're dying simply because they suck.
SkyWolf
>>800ms 20% loss guys at the same time. Sound logic in my book.
> HT turned on the "ceiling" tonight. The host now locks the doors at
>105 people. Things settled down *a lot* once the limit took effect.
> The flip side of that is that I haven't been able to get back on all
>night. :)
>c==)--Katana----
>Musketeer Squadron
Course....then I gotta wonder what some guy you just charged 10 bucks
is gonna say when he cant get it.. or gets in and then finds he can't
fly.
I dunno.
Fix it all and make it perfect for me please. <G>
Jim Garrett
DoK said:
..What is really lacking is offline target drones. Just some big ass
>hunk of junk orbitting F1 which reports where you hit it and how well >(i.e. big hit of 20mm, piddly little 7.7mm, whatever). Tryin=
g to figure >this crap out in the heat of combat just ain't very deterministic.
>This is just an annoyance for us beta-testes now. But when this hawg >goes live and the register starts ringing, you do not want pe=
ople leaving in frustration.
>
> -DoK
Hear, hear! What he said! Give the man a cigar! We need a moving target
offline to shoot at...to work some of the "math" out. I currently use AW
offline to work on gunnery; its the closest model I've found.
Does ICI really want potential gamers to be drawn into the Air Warrior
sphere of influence?
Marketing wise, nothing like few thousand dweebs who've been practicing
target shooting off-line and think they've gotten good enough to fly
against some of you nuts ;-) who've been doing this for...how long now?
Ridge Runner
(rube on WB)
kat...@cris.com
>> Very very untrue.
>
>No it's not. (Do we wanna discuss this or just negate each other? :)
>
>Okay, I was generalizing. In my experience (which amounts to hundreds
>of hours in Fighter Duel - not the PC version!) you are very lucky to
Oh, I though we were talking reality. :)
I was one of the original national FD ladder participants, and at
the top of the Portland ladder. Hawkeye learned everything he knows
from me. :)
If Amiga FD/FDPro/FDProII were so accurate, I wonder why Jaeger made
such a drastic lethality change with FD PC.
I suppose we could get anecdotal. Lots and lots of accounts of
single pass kills. Of course, there are also many accounts of planes
taking incredible amounts of damage and making it home. That's why
anecdotal evidence is pretty useless.
>I wasn't talking about the hit mapping. I haven't tested it but I've
>not noticed any problems with it. I was talking about (as were others)
>when you get a hit but it's not registered AT ALL. Seems here like some
>of your bullets are being lost. I mean, I could be wrong, but if my
>tracers are passing right thru them, I should be hitting them, no? When
>I spray a cloud of bullets right in front of them, and they fly right
>thru it, at least HALF the time a FEW of the bullets should find the
>target, shouldn't they? Well, they're not.
The result of our testing showed that you either hit, and it
registers, or you miss. Tracers going "through" the image are an
optical illusion. If you want to test it yourself, grab some
countrymates and test it by shooting at each other at a quiet field.
I had the exact same complaints that you have now...until I tested
it myself. I was wrong, and you are wrong.
There are some new arguements with 98. Gunnery is noticeably easier.
The thickness of the wing hitmap has been increased by 6 inches (to
scale). With 97, the thickness of the wings was about 1 pixel and
almost impossible to hit from dead 6...almost like a 0 depth poly.
With 98, they are "thicker" and therefore easier to hit.
Many are arguing that it's too easy now. This may be because it's
true, or because going from the nearly impossible 97 to the easier 98
is such a shock. HT said that "it's not that big a change", but it was
clear immediately that it was a major change in the ability to hit a
plane. Some argued immediately to change it back to 97 standards, and
even logged in disgust at the easy gunnery. Some argued strongly that
it was "just right". Others, myself included, argued that if necessary
they could split the difference and make it 3 inches.
IMO, none of this would be as big an issue if the network problems
could be located. I use CRIS direct, and there's is a noticeable
jumpiness to all planes at close range. Others have complained about
this as well. I don't know if it's CRIS, or if it's the host...I just
know that this weekend it was the worst I've ever seen it.
c==)--Katana----
Musketeer Squadron
SkyWolf
>> Marketing wise, nothing like few thousand dweebs who've been practicing
>> target shooting off-line and think they've gotten good enough to fly
>> against some of you nuts ;-) who've been doing this for...how long now?
>Precisely. Without offline gunnery practice, the dweebs won't really
>be sure they're dying simply because they suck.
> -DoK
Hahahahahaha....
LMAO
Tarkus
> IMO, none of this would be as big an issue if the network problems
>could be located. I use CRIS direct, and there's is a noticeable
>jumpiness to all planes at close range. Others have complained about
>this as well. I don't know if it's CRIS, or if it's the host...I just
>know that this weekend it was the worst I've ever seen it.
Agreed.
Have you noticed that even tho its still not perfect, the warps are far fewer
when the arena is not very crowded? When the charges begin, I'd guess that the
arena won't be quite as full. Question is, who will be flying? The guys with
poor connections or the guys with good connections? I don't see how they can
coexist.
If AW is any indication, arena usage will drop sharply when warping is a big
problem. I remember logging on, tuning to channel one, asking if the warps had
improved, hearing 'hell no' from 20 people, and responding with, 'well, nite
fellas, I'll chek back tomorrow'.
Enforcing minimum connect standards is the only solution I see. The host can't
seem to handle the current load anyway. Reduce host load and get rid of the
800ms 20% loss guys at the same time. Sound logic in my book.
Tark
kat...@cris.com
>Enforcing minimum connect standards is the only solution I see. The host can't
>seem to handle the current load anyway. Reduce host load and get rid of the
>800ms 20% loss guys at the same time. Sound logic in my book.
HT turned on the "ceiling" tonight. The host now locks the doors at
Mike Young
>I highly recommend finding a quiet field with some friends and working
>out for yourselves exactly how everything hangs together. I'm
>certainly glad I joined in - when we pay, this will be an expensive
>learning method.
Or putting in target drones for off-line practice. This wasn't necessary, or
even desireable, until this change. Now, I can see myself spending mucho time
honing the genitals-only kill. I would love to see this in the next FE update.
Mike.
btmn
Gary Robinson
>This is just an annoyance for us beta-testes now. But when this hawg goes
>frustration.
>
> -DoK
here....here....DoK.....this thing is good and getting better but it sure
isn't ready for prime time yet ! (IMHO)
Zork