Jeri Ellsworth at VCF East 4.0
RobertB
Bob Russell, and a teleconferencing Chuck
Peddle gathered at the Vintage Computer
Festival East 4.0 in order to honor 25 years
of the Commodore 64. The CBM engineers had
their talk on Saturday, June 9, and I was
fortunate to be there. Dave Haynie combined
his video and my video footage of the event
and placed it on-line at YouTube.com
On Sunday, June 10, freelance engineer Jeri
Ellsworth made her presentation at VCF East,
and it is now available on-line. Go to
and watch the 35-minute video of "Jeri
Ellsworth at VCF East 4.0". In the video, she
speaks on several topics, including the C1 and
the C64 DTV.
Thanks to BIOS for
putting it on-line,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://videocam.net.au/fcug
The Other Group of Amigoids
http://www.calweb.com/~rabel1/
J. B. Wood
<2a839726-7225-4106...@q35g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
RobertB <rber...@value.net> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 10, freelance engineer Jeri
> Ellsworth made her presentation at VCF East,
> and it is now available on-line. Go to
>
Hello, and she has an engineering degree(s)? Identifying someone as an
"engineer" (not in the railroad sense) usually means they hold at least a
baccalaureate degree in some branch of the profession. Exactly what is a
"freelance engineer"? Do you mean a paid consultant and/or provider of
engineering services? Sincerely,
John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wo...@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
> Hello, and she has an engineering degree(s)? Identifying someone as an
> "engineer" (not in the railroad sense) usually means they hold at least
> a baccalaureate degree in some branch of the profession. Exactly what
> is a "freelance engineer"? Do you mean a paid consultant and/or
> provider of engineering services?
Wikipedia says she started to study circuit design for about a year but
dropped out.
She is listed under the category `American engineers` though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth
Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
merser
think there is something similar to this one where she speaks to a group at
stanford?
She seems an amazing person and must be very intelligent and focused to have
basically self taught herself so much.
She's got my admiration.
"Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch" <bj_...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:6l0uk3F...@mid.uni-berlin.de...
J.B. Wood
Hello, and my opinion of Wikipedia aside for the moment, I'm not
questioning Ms. Ellsworth's knowledge or skills and I don't know if she
ever has referred to herself as an engineer. That title, however, is
reserved for those who have earned it IMHO and understand the underlying
theory and applied mathematics. If non-degreed she is at best a very
skilled electronics technician, but not an engineer. Sincerely,
Robert Roland
wrote:
>Hello, and she has an engineering degree(s)? Identifying someone as an
>"engineer" (not in the railroad sense) usually means they hold at least a
>baccalaureate degree in some branch of the profession.
It probably depends on where in the world you are. Here in Norway,
"engineer" is not a protected title, and anyone can call themselves an
engineer.
--
RoRo
Brandon Staggs
> Hello, and my opinion of Wikipedia aside for the moment, I'm not
> questioning Ms. Ellsworth's knowledge or skills and I don't know if she
> ever has referred to herself as an engineer. That title, however, is
> reserved for those who have earned it IMHO and understand the underlying
> theory and applied mathematics. If non-degreed she is at best a very
> skilled electronics technician, but not an engineer. Sincerely,
Not everybody needs schooling to master a trade. And not every region
protects the term "engineer" as only applying to people who are
"papered."
--
-Brandon
http://www.brandonstaggs.com/c64.html
bluebirdpod
HA!, we have people in our office, an engineering office, and have
people doing "an engineers job" and
they are not "papered", now when I client wants stamped drawings, then
a engineer that has a license
in the state the drawings are made for has a license in that state,
they must verify the information
on the drawings and then stamp them with his life on the line, as its
almost a personal gaurantee when
they stamp them. But a lot of the work is small re-fits and small
upgrades and they dont ask for it then,
but if its a bid-set for a client to get their permits approved then
they usually require stamped sets.
sad thing about the whole situation, the Engineer brings in a bigger
paycheck, and the guy doing the same
work non-degreed makes less, happens all over the place, people doing
work of degreed people and making
much less, guess they have a job and that counts too.
RobertB
> ...and my opinion of Wikipedia aside for the moment, I'm not
> questioning Ms. Ellsworth's knowledge or skills and I don't know if she
> ever has referred to herself as an engineer.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/A42/050
That Wiki article has errors,
Sam Gillett
"J.B. Wood" <john...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote ...
>
> Hello, and my opinion of Wikipedia aside for the moment, I'm not
> questioning Ms. Ellsworth's knowledge or skills and I don't know if she
> ever has referred to herself as an engineer. That title, however, is
> reserved for those who have earned it IMHO and understand the underlying
> theory and applied mathematics. If non-degreed she is at best a very
> skilled electronics technician, but not an engineer. Sincerely,
I don't think Thomas Edison had a degree either. Yet he accomplished more in
his lifetime than any dozen "engineers" of that time period. (In honor of
his accomplishments Edison may have been awarded a few _honorary_ degrees,
but that isn't the same as a _real_ degree is it?)
Jeri may not be quite as talented as Edison was, but she still outclasses
most real "engineers" when it comes right down to being able to get things
done.
To elaborate on comments made by another... Before I retired, I worked as an
Aircraft Electrician for a contractor that built aircraft for the military.
When building the first prototype for a new model the Electrical Engineers
often worked closely with the Aircraft Electricians on the shop floor. I
know of many occasions when the solution to a problem was provided by the
electricians on the shop floor. And then, when it actually worked like it
should, that solution would be incorporated into the blueprints by the
engineers.
Engineers are a necessary part of the overall picture, but they are not the
entire picture. :-)
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Why is the third hand on a watch
called the second hand?
merser
make the sacrifice in time and effort
to get the piece of paper that indicates their level of achievment. However
they do not have the right to think that anybody who hasn't got a degree is
inferior in intellect or talent .
I'm an electrican myself, and I have spent time behind a trade counter at a
supplier of electrical components at one time. I would love a dollar for
every time a so called electrical engineer would come in and act as if they
knew it all. But it wasn't long in talking before you picked up their
ignorance about the part and it's installation.
Engineers don't know it all but they are supposed to be equipped with the
knowledge in how to find out how to do something and as somebody said put
their reputation on the line as to the safety and reliability of what they
design. That's what the big dollars are for and they are entitiled to it for
the above reasons. But why worry about people who want to call themself an
engineer without the ticket unless they are more successful? Perhaps she
should call herself a hardware configuration specialist or programmer or
some such but why nitpick.
Mike Seiler
bud
Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Tue, Oct 7, 2008, 6:48am (CDT+1) From:
wo...@itd.nrl.navy.mil (J. B. Wood)
script:
>Identifying someone as an "engineer"
>(not in the railroad sense) usually means
>they hold at least a baccalaureate degree
>in some branch of the profession.
Ignoring the fact that garbage men in the US used to call themselves
"sanitation engineers";… I will state that I am one of the last
"mustang" engineers certified in Louisiana. Some time after I passed
the same test 'grads' have to pass,… LA started to require a degree to
take the test.
I have worked at companies that would hire a 'grad' who didn't have a
cert. or license.
A degree isn't everything, nor, in my experience, is a certificate or
license.
Confer: MCSE. (Microsoft Certified System Engineer)
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
--
http://community.webtv.net/dowcom/DOWCOMSAMSTRADGUIDE
MSWindows is television,… Linux is radar.
J. B. Wood
<nos...@a.b.c> wrote:
It's not a question of protecting anything. It's a matter of what the
title "engineer" means. To go a little further, in the U.S. the title
"professional engineer" additionally means an engineer who has passed a
rigorous exam to become registered. Most states require this of civil
engineers who design public use structures such as bridges. It's akin to
an attorney (with that "paper" law degree) passing the bar exam. Calling
someone, or referring to yourself as, an engineer (or for that matter a
lawyer or an MD) who has not "done the time" is equivalent to someone in
the armed forces wearing ribbons on their dress uniform that they have not
earned. In some cases it is illegal.
Does that mean I want an EE wiring my new house? Probably not. OTOH I
would most likely not hire an electrician to design a new high-efficiency
light bulb. Of course without EEs and applied mathematicians plying their
craft over the decades there would be no need for electricians.
To quote Marilyn vos Savant, "The occupational group most responsible for
modern society is engineers who should win a 'most underappreciated
award'. They have designed our entire infrastructure."
Clocky
"merser" <ms76...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48ec2d84$0$31804$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Nice anecdote there. Engineers are entitled to the big money because they
> make the sacrifice in time and effort
> to get the piece of paper that indicates their level of achievment.
> However they do not have the right to think that anybody who hasn't got a
> degree is inferior in intellect or talent .
That's the problem though, a lot of them may be brilliant on a theoretical
level and place themselves all others that don't have a degree but they
often lack real world practical experience to solve real world problems.
I'm sure one or two Commodore engineers had no formal engineering
qualification (Bil Herd is one IIRC) but they probably had excellent real
world problem solving skills. Actually, in my experience it's those that
have taught themselves that display an uncanny way of thinking out of the
square to solve problems.
merser
production to realise that a lot of EE's don't have real world experience.
"Clocky" <nic...@migo.com> wrote in message
news:00fc9988$0$20670$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> "merser" <ms76...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:48ec2d84$0$31804$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
J.B. Wood
Well, that link answers one question. She doesn't cite any educational
credentials that one would expect to see in a resume. In the U.S. a
position description in a company or the U.S. Government for some kind
of engineer (not engineering technician) would normally require a
minimum of a BS degree and can also include the requirement of some
years of experience. Again I'm not out to belittle Ms. Ellsworth's
accomplishments; I do take issue however in "padding" a resume with
unearned titles. Sincerely,
RobertB
> I do take issue however in "padding" a resume with
> unearned titles.
You are free to contact each company and verify.
Truly,
Rudolf Harras
>It probably depends on where in the world you are. Here in Norway,
>"engineer" is not a protected title, and anyone can call themselves an
>engineer.
I thought you spoke Norwegian in Norway...
Dragos
I think someone who can demonstrate skill on her level DOES understand
the underlying principles and therefore is as knowledgeable as an
engineering graduate. But go ahead and nitpick, lets not forget the
colors are wrong on the DTV....
Working for myself affords me the luxury of laughing at those who have
paper requirements.....
davemc...@gmail.com
> Well, that link answers one question. She doesn't cite any educational
> credentials that one would expect to see in a resume. In the U.S. a
> position description in a company or the U.S. Government for some kind
> of engineer (not engineering technician) would normally require a
> minimum of a BS degree and can also include the requirement of some
> years of experience. Again I'm not out to belittle Ms. Ellsworth's
> accomplishments; I do take issue however in "padding" a resume with
> unearned titles. Sincerely,
Then you should not hire her as an engineer. I don't think that will
necessarily break her heart, though, since several companies were
willing to hire her as an engineer whether she has a formal degree or
not.
What, exactly, on her linkedin profile is "padded", anyway? If she
was hired by a company and her title was "engineer", should she not be
able to use that title in her resume?
Clocky
"RobertB" <rber...@value.net> wrote in message
news:1e4d9cd1-c5dd-4492...@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 8, 5:34 am, "J.B. Wood" <john.w...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:
> I do take issue however in "padding" a resume with
> unearned titles.
You are free to contact each company and verify.
Was she an engineer or was she doing the job of an engineer, I think that is
the point he's making.
Mark McDougall
> That's the problem though, a lot of them may be brilliant on a theoretical
> level and place themselves all others that don't have a degree but they
> often lack real world practical experience to solve real world problems.
I'm a degree-qualified electronics engineer and I certainly know *my*
limitations. I did rather well academically but there are some areas of
electronics which almost defy my comprehension and consequently I have zero
experience in those fields. OTOH I'm quite proficient in other areas and
have no hesitation in holding myself up as an "expert" in these.
>> Engineers don't know it all but they are supposed to be equipped with the
>> knowledge in how to find out how to do something
You've hit the nail on the head there.
I've studied with "engineers" that I wouldn't trust replacing the batteries
in my torch - and I've worked with "non-engineers" that have successfully
designed real-world systems.
A piece of paper is only that - there's nothing magic about the knowledge
gained sitting in a lecture. However, I'd agree that the foundations in
mathematics and physics forced upon you at uni (at least they *used* to be -
there's a worrying trend seeing courses dumbed-down) are invaluable and not
always part of a self-taught curriculum.
Of course, society needs yard-sticks and a degree is a ticket to an interview.
[As an aside, this whole Jeri-worshipping is pretty sad. AFAIK it all
sprouts from the CDTV/C-One (and nothing else) which quite frankly, is
rather old news now (the C-One is actually a bit of a lemon). There's plenty
of equivalent and more complicated/impressive designs floating around the
net these days...]
Regards,
--
| Mark McDougall | "Electrical Engineers do it
| <http://members.iinet.net.au/~msmcdoug> | with less resistance!"
Clocky
"Mark McDougall" <msmc...@no.spam.iinet> wrote in message
news:48ed3e5c$0$22540$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> That's the problem though, a lot of them may be brilliant on a
>> theoretical level and place themselves all others that don't have a
>> degree but they often lack real world practical experience to solve real
>> world problems.
>
> I'm a degree-qualified electronics engineer and I certainly know *my*
> limitations. I did rather well academically but there are some areas of
> electronics which almost defy my comprehension and consequently I have
> zero experience in those fields. OTOH I'm quite proficient in other areas
> and have no hesitation in holding myself up as an "expert" in these.
>
>>> Engineers don't know it all but they are supposed to be equipped with
>>> the knowledge in how to find out how to do something
>
> You've hit the nail on the head there.
>
> I've studied with "engineers" that I wouldn't trust replacing the
> batteries in my torch - and I've worked with "non-engineers" that have
> successfully designed real-world systems.
>
> A piece of paper is only that - there's nothing magic about the knowledge
> gained sitting in a lecture. However, I'd agree that the foundations in
> mathematics and physics forced upon you at uni (at least they *used* to
> be - there's a worrying trend seeing courses dumbed-down) are invaluable
> and not always part of a self-taught curriculum.
I agree.
> Of course, society needs yard-sticks and a degree is a ticket to an
> interview.
>
> [As an aside, this whole Jeri-worshipping is pretty sad. AFAIK it all
> sprouts from the CDTV/C-One (and nothing else) which quite frankly, is
> rather old news now (the C-One is actually a bit of a lemon). There's
> plenty of equivalent and more complicated/impressive designs floating
> around the net these days...]
>
There are others in the community that have contributed far more over a much
longer period who don't get the same attention as Jeri does by her fanbois.
Golan Klinger
> There are others in the community that have contributed far more over a
> much longer period who don't get the same attention as Jeri does by her
> fanbois.
Perhaps the singular would have been more accurate. Many people like and
respect Jeri but there's only one cheerleader who has done all but declare
his undying love.
--
Golan Klinger
Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest.
Hg
Not that anybody cares, I have a technical degree as well - which also
included a course in VHDL. Earned it back in 1995. Haven't used anything I
learnt in my degree for a long time. I've since moved into a lucrative area
which is completely different from what I thought i'd be doing back in those
days. I love what I do now though.
I may talk a lot about games and other 'non-serious' stuff in this group
from time to time, I like to think I have a little understanding of the
underlying technical aspects of discussions about HW. Having said that, I
could never come up with the projects that others have created since the
fall of Commodore. I take my hat off to nearly everyone who has contributed
to the scene.
Maurice is a bit of a question mark though. Never dealt with
him before, and from what I've read about him I probably never will.
merser
are perfectly capable of a temper tantrum yourself.
"Chris Baird" <ab...@brushtail.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:ufprmab...@brushtail.apana.org.au...
> > Jeri may not be quite as talented as Edison was, but she still
> > outclasses most real "engineers" when it comes right down to being
> > able to get things done.
>
> ...what?
>
> Throwing a temper-tantrum over the DTV, and the Vaporware C-1 project
> that not only hasn't delivered, but held back other more capable
> CBM-VHDL projects a good 5-10 years... Her whole career has been
> unprofessional.
>
> The comp.sys.cbm Jeri Stalker Cult can go fuck itself too.
>
> --
> C,,
scorche...@gmail.com
> >Jerimay not be quite as talented as Edison was, but she still
> > outclasses most real "engineers" when it comes right down to being
> > able to get things done.
>
>
> Throwing a temper-tantrum over the DTV, and the Vaporware C-1 project
> that not only hasn't delivered, but held back other more capable
> CBM-VHDL projects a good 5-10 years... Her whole career has been
> unprofessional.
>
>
> --
> C,,
Thanks Guys. You're so nice. I hope I can meet you someday.
-Jer
PS. Jens has been selling C1's for years. http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one/
Sam Gillett
"Dragos" <mgla...@gmail.com> wrote ...
> Ugh, the old I have a piece of paper argument.....
I remember something from 1961-62. I attended a 22 week course at the US
Navy's Aviation Electrician school. There was a reservist in our class who
had a BS in Electrical Engineering. It used to piss him off to no end that a
high school dropout in the same class would consistently score better on the
weekly exam than he did... and that his piece of paper did not impress
anyone. ;-)
> I think someone who can demonstrate skill on her level DOES understand
> the underlying principles and therefore is as knowledgeable as an
> engineering graduate. But go ahead and nitpick, lets not forget the
> colors are wrong on the DTV....
IIRC, previous discussions about the DTV colors came to the conclusion that
the color problem was not Jeri's fault. Some idiot at the facility in China
where the DTV was manufactured used the wrong resistors in the production of
the device.
> Working for myself affords me the luxury of laughing at those who have
> paper requirements.....
Yes, their jealousy toward those who are just as successful _without_ the
almighty paper is somewhat comical. :-)
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
Sam Gillett
"bud" <dow...@webtv.net> wrote ...
>
> A degree isn't everything, nor, in my experience, is a certificate or
> license.
>
> Confer: MCSE. (Microsoft Certified System Engineer)
ROFLMAO >;-)>
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
UFO's are real.
It's the Air Force that doesn't exist!
Mark McDougall
> There are others in the community that have contributed far more over a much
> longer period who don't get the same attention as Jeri does by her fanbois.
I suspect if Jeri wasn't such an attractive female, then she would be but a
blip on the radar like everyone else you mention.
Not to say she hasn't done cool stuff, but the hero-worshipping - <groan>!
Dragos
illogical thing to blame on Jeri, and pointed it out here to reinforce
that this thread has jumped the shark.....
Clocky
"Golan Klinger" <n...@sp.am> wrote in message
news:gcjgbr$23j$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> There are others in the community that have contributed far more over a
>> much longer period who don't get the same attention as Jeri does by her
>> fanbois.
>
> Perhaps the singular would have been more accurate. Many people like and
> respect Jeri but there's only one cheerleader who has done all but declare
> his undying love.
>
Yeah, I was being diplomatic...
Clocky
"Mark McDougall" <msmc...@no.spam.iinet> wrote in message
> Clocky wrote:
>
>> There are others in the community that have contributed far more over a
>> much longer period who don't get the same attention as Jeri does by her
>> fanbois.
>
> I suspect if Jeri wasn't such an attractive female, then she would be but
> a blip on the radar like everyone else you mention.
>
> Not to say she hasn't done cool stuff, but the hero-worshipping - <groan>!
>
Yeah, it's pathetic really...
Clocky
<scorche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c8358037-0630-4437...@t18g2000prt.googlegroups.com...
And the only support has been from Peter and Jens as far as I can tell.
Clocky
"Dragos" <mgla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d42f417-4aa7-4085...@l62g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> To be clear, I was mentioning the color thing as another hugely
> illogical thing to blame on Jeri, and pointed it out here to reinforce
> that this thread has jumped the shark.....
>
I don't think anyone is blaming Jeri anymore since it's been established
that the manufacturer fucked it up in production.
Golan Klinger
> I don't think anyone is blaming Jeri anymore since it's been established
> that the manufacturer fucked it up in production.
Which makes it hard to believe Robert Bernardo's claim that he has a DTV
that came from the factory without any imperfections. Perhaps he perceives
discussion of the flaw as some kind of insult to Jeri's reputations so he
lies as part of some misguided attempt to defend her?
Clocky
> > I don't think anyone is blaming Jeri anymore since it's been
> > established that the manufacturer fucked it up in production.
>
> behavour during and after.
>
> (..and it's great to remembr The Fanboi's defect-free PAL DTV.. :)
> --
Not to forget his apologist fanboi behaviour when he took a shit on Jens
(despite Jens having supported the community for years) when he couldn't
possible have known both sides of the C1 story.
commodorec...@googlemail.com
> > Jeri may not be quite as talented as Edison was, but she still
> > outclasses most real "engineers" when it comes right down to being
> > able to get things done.
>
> ...what?
>
> Throwing a temper-tantrum over the DTV, and the Vaporware C-1 project
> that not only hasn't delivered, but held back other more capable
> CBM-VHDL projects a good 5-10 years... Her whole career has been
> unprofessional.
>
>
> --
> C,,
It's good when people know the facts, isn't it?
Regards,
Shaun.
nyder
> > Jeri may not be quite as talented as Edison was, but she still
> > outclasses most real "engineers" when it comes right down to being
> > able to get things done.
>
> ...what?
>
> Throwing a temper-tantrum over the DTV, and the Vaporware C-1 project
> that not only hasn't delivered, but held back other more capable
> CBM-VHDL projects a good 5-10 years... Her whole career has been
> unprofessional.
>
> The comp.sys.cbm Jeri Stalker Cult can go fuck itself too.
>
> --
> C,,
guess i'm an ass, but since you didn't want this saved in the arhive,
i thought i'd quote it.
Joel Koltner
news:gcfks5$2ki$1...@ra.nrl.navy.mil...
> That title, however, is reserved for those who have earned it IMHO and
> understand the underlying theory and applied mathematics.
In the U.S. this isn't really the case -- plenty of people call themselves
engineers who don't have the traditional four-year college degree; it's
entirely appropriate. In other countries I understand that "engineer" does
have some legal meaning attached to it, however... In the U.S. the term
"professional engineer" does as well, I believe. (But note that relatively
few U.S. engineers with their four-year degrees are actually "professional
engineers" in the legal sense. Except for civil engineering and a few other
"high liability" jobs, where a PE is almost requisite.)
J. B. Wood
Koltner" <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "J.B. Wood" <john...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote in message
> news:gcfks5$2ki$1...@ra.nrl.navy.mil...
> > That title, however, is reserved for those who have earned it IMHO and
> > understand the underlying theory and applied mathematics.
>
> In the U.S. this isn't really the case -- plenty of people call themselves
> engineers who don't have the traditional four-year college degree
Hello, and you can call yourself anything you want - it doesn't mean
others are obliged to accept it (especially a prospective employer). I
never meant to imply that a non-degreed person couldn't have the skills of
an engineer. Orville and Wilbur Wright were arguably one of the finest
examples of non-degreed scientists/engineers of the 20th cent. This means
that while they were also inventors they weren't tinkerers. They didn't
just "stumble" upon successful controlled and powered heavier-than-air
flight. And applied mathematics played a large role in that success.
In the U.S. when you're at a party and someone asks what you do for a
living and you say "I'm a ________ (electrical, mechanical, aerospace,
etc) engineer" it usually means you have at least at B.S. degree or
equivalent. Job ads in the U.S. for a "------- Engineer" (again railroad
and nautical usage aside) almost always require at least this level of
education. So if you go to the job interview without that prerequisite
you better have something damn fine in your resume to offset it.
Sincerely,
John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wo...@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337
Joel Koltner
news:wood-14100...@jbw-mac.itd.nrl.navy.mil...
> Hello, and you can call yourself anything you want - it doesn't mean
> others are obliged to accept it (especially a prospective employer).
That's certainly true. Personally I'm disappointed in any employer who
considers someone's academic record the most important -- or even a
significant -- part of their qualifications to do a job, though: Of the folks
with any given scholastic certification (such as a BSEE), their actual ability
to do a given job (that the degree might suggest, e.g., a BSEE building a
Commodore 64) vary all over the board.
> In the U.S. when you're at a party and someone asks what you do for a
> living and you say "I'm a ________ (electrical, mechanical, aerospace,
> etc) engineer" it usually means you have at least at B.S. degree or
> equivalent.
Not in my experience. To me it means you have a job doing "______." (I.e.,
you say, "I'm an electrical engineer," it means you perform electrical
engineering for a living but doesn't imply you have a BSEE... Think about how
many people who are employed as electrical engineers actually have CS degrees
or physics or math degrees... or none at all.)
> Job ads in the U.S. for a "------- Engineer" (again railroad
> and nautical usage aside) almost always require at least this level of
> education.
That's true for large companies, certainly -- if you want to get in through
the "front door," at least.
Something I've always found rather ironic is the following: When all the BSEEs
and MSEEs and even PhDs can't fix a problem, what do they do? They call an
outside consultant.
And they almost never look at the consultant's academic background, just his
or her prior performance in fixing similar problems.
There's a reason why many big companies require consultants to not divulge
that they've done work for the company: With all the "rah, rah, we have only
the best degreed engineers working here!" that such companies' HR departments
tend to engage in, it's a bit embarassing when someone who went to a 2nd rate
po-dunk college is able to fix problems in a week that all the high-powered
Ivy League couldn't in many, many months!
You hang out in sci.electronics.design at times, don't you John? The whole
"how much does formal education really matter?" thread (with the perennial
answer, "not a whole lot") goes on over there as well.
---Joel
J. B. Wood
Koltner" <zapwireD...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "J. B. Wood" <wo...@itd.nrl.navy.mil> wrote in message
> news:wood-14100...@jbw-mac.itd.nrl.navy.mil...
> > Hello, and you can call yourself anything you want - it doesn't mean
> > others are obliged to accept it (especially a prospective employer).
>
> That's certainly true. Personally I'm disappointed in any employer who
> considers someone's academic record the most important -- or even a
> significant -- part of their qualifications to do a job, though: Of the folks
> with any given scholastic certification (such as a BSEE), their actual
ability
> to do a given job (that the degree might suggest, e.g., a BSEE building a
> Commodore 64) vary all over the board.
>
Hello, and the assumption (and I think the right one) is that by obtaining
that piece of paper you have demonstrated a grasp of the fundamentals
necessary to do the job. By no means does it guarantee that you will be
effective on the job.
Personnel directors of companies know this. Education level (depending on
the employment sought) and job experience are important categories in a
resume usually given scrutiny. So if the job is advertised for an MSEE
and you only have a BSEE but tons of pertinent practical experience from
previous employment you just might get an offer. You might even be able
to "talk" your way into that offer (which is why there is no substitute
for showing up in person at that personnel dept.)
How important is that degree? Would you want a doctor performing delicate
surgery on you that didn't graduate from an accredited medical
school/college? It was never the intent IMO for colleges/universities to
equip students with a wealth of "practical" knowledge. That comes from
being on the job and hopefully applying the fundamentals that you acquired
via those institutions of higher learning. Sincerely,
Joel Koltner
> Hello, and the assumption (and I think the right one) is that by obtaining
> that piece of paper you have demonstrated a grasp of the fundamentals
> necessary to do the job.
Yes, and I'm saying that -- at least these days -- it often demonstrates not
that great a grasp on the fundamentals, but rather little more than the
ability to remain "task oriented" for long periods of time... and to be
sociable/creative enough to figure out the answers as needed, if you aren't
"getting" the fundamentals.
Granted, it varies a lot from school to school, but in general a BSEE today
ends up learning far less than one did 40 years ago.
> How important is that degree? Would you want a doctor performing delicate
> surgery on you that didn't graduate from an accredited medical
> school/college?
If I had a thorough medical background and was convinced the guy knew what he
was doing, yes, absolutely. Since I don't, the degree serves as a surrogate
to suggest the guy knows something -- and it's about the only thing I can go
on --, but these days degrees have been vastly cheapened by the "dumbing down"
of schools.
---Joel