The AMIGA is DEAD - please buy a PC!!!
Rita B. Flesh
The AMIGA is totally outdated and you can't even use
the internet properly.None of the modern programs will work on the
AMIGA and none of the great PC games will work.
So please throw away your AMIGA and buy a PC!!!
NOW!!!
Jerry Heyman
wrote:
I'm sure this is a troll, but I'll feed it ...
> Why are you still using such a vintage system???
Because it works?
Because it doesn't require GB of memory to function?
> The AMIGA is totally outdated and you can't even use
> the internet properly.
Define properly? Because it doesn't support Flash or other video
doesn't mean that it's useless. My A3000 (circa 1994) can still surf
the net, visit many websites that I'm interested in (as a programmer).
I know what the limitations are, and I'm willing to live with them.
> None of the modern programs will work on the
> AMIGA and none of the great PC games will work.
Funny thing is that many of the most successful PC games have their roots
on the Amiga - where many game companies cut their teeth on a multi-tasking
Operating System.
> So please throw away your AMIGA and buy a PC!!!
>
> NOW!!!
Got one, even though it's a Dual P3@1GHz, there are still many things that
the Amiga does more efficiently. And no, I don't run that Redmond, WA
OS on it - I'm using it for Linux...
jerry
--
// Jerry Heyman | "It's not a 'right' if someone else
// Amiga Forever :-) | has to pay for it" - Ayn Rand
\\ // heymanj at acm dot org |
\X/ http://www.hobbeshollow.com
Amiduffer
> on Sunday 10 May 2009 9:29 pm, vintage_man...@yahoo.com (Rita B. Flesh)
> wrote:
>
> I'm sure this is a troll, but I'll feed it ...
Yeah, its a troll. It obviously has been spending too much time under
the bridge scaring little children to not notice that nearly everyone
who has a few vintage systems to play with doesn't already have PC's
or Macs too.
Shoot, I just made a nice intro train animation with DeluxePaint4 on
my A3000 for a friends YouTube videos. He was quite happy to get it
too.
Bob Edgeworthy
"Jerry Heyman" <je...@hobbeshollow.com> wrote in message
news:3906203.p...@unix.hobbeshollow.com...
> on Sunday 10 May 2009 9:29 pm, vintage...@yahoo.com (Rita B. Flesh)
> wrote:
>
> I'm sure this is a troll, but I'll feed it ...
>
>> Why are you still using such a vintage system???
>
> Because it works?
> Because it doesn't require GB of memory to function?
>
I bought an Amiga back in 1985 because it was the latest, state of the art
computer on the market. It outperformed PC's and Macs at every price level.
It had better graphics, sound and a true multi-tasking operating system.
I want a new computer that does what the Amiga did nearly 25 years ago -
outperform everything else on the planet at a price the average person could
afford. A new computer that will break new ground..
What we need is a new Amiga, not yesterdays Amiga....
Even if it does require a few gigs of RAM to operate efficiently....
Hari Seldon
Never mind about feeding trolls, ask and you shall receive - well, soon
anyway...
Go to http://www.natami.net and check out the specs and the forum.
C`ya,
--
Hari - http://far-out.eu
Old programmers never die, they just branch to a new address.
Bob Edgeworthy
"Hari Seldon" <hariseldon@7.9> wrote in message
news:h3t9f6$g0h$1...@aioe.org...
Nice, but not exactly what I had in mind.
I want a new computer that embodies the spirit of the Amiga, not necessarily
Amiga compatibility.
The Amiga was a new concept back in 1985. I want something NEW and FRESH for
the 21st century. Something that goes far beyond anything we have today. Not
just an updated clone of a 25 year old computer.
I want a new operating system, totally new from the ground up. Not just a
new version of Amiga DOS.
Is that too much to ask for?
Although an Amiga emulator running on the new computer would be nice.... I
don't want the main focus to be Amiga compatibility.
Hari Seldon
This IS a new computer, based on hardware that embodies the spirit of the
Amiga, with 100% compatibility, which just means that it runs all Amiga
software natively, the same as all previous Amiga models. Native Amiga.
And obviously it will be able to run any new software that`s written for
it, to use all these new features - a bigger jump than ECS to AGA was...
This is a SuperAGA system, which is backwards compatible with AGA, but has
new features, such as hi-res displays (no need for CGfx or Picasso) with
3D capability, and better audio too, which was never improved through the
history of C=. The chip-set has two coppers and two blitters, so it is
pretty advanced, not just ~100x faster, compared to AGA. Plus there is
256MB of CHIP RAM (AGA had 2MB) as well as 256MB of FAST RAM on board.
> The Amiga was a new concept back in 1985. I want something NEW and FRESH
> for the 21st century. Something that goes far beyond anything we have
> today. Not just an updated clone of a 25 year old computer.
You mean you want to trade your Porsche for a flying saucer? ;-)
The chip-set was a new concept, but the original software, or AmigaOS, was
just written in a very efficient way, but using already present resources.
Multitasking, shared libraries and devices were already being used on
mainframes. Even the Sinclair Spectrum had a SuperBASIC that allowed you
to write programs that could multitask. Amiga just put this at a deeper
level, so the entire OS and all that ran under it could benefit.
Personally, I see the NatAmi as a logical follow-up to the Amiga line, as
if it were an A6000 or similar, brought up to date. It should be able to
do all a PC can, plus what Amiga could, but in an Amiga way - and fast.
Besides that, having updateable hardware that you can download is a pretty
new concept...
> I want a new operating system, totally new from the ground up. Not just
> a new version of Amiga DOS.
MorphOS is just that, or Linux - which does not mean better... ;-)
> Is that too much to ask for?
Probably. Although if you wait a decade, maybe quantum computing will come
of age - and perhaps even be available to and usable by the public... ;-)
> Although an Amiga emulator running on the new computer would be nice....
> I don't want the main focus to be Amiga compatibility.
Do not confuse the word `compatibility` with emulation. The NatAmi is NOT
an emulator - it is just the evolved Amiga chip-set and CPU, designed in
an FPGA, which not only makes it new, but updateable too. Also, since it
has PCI slots, cheap off the shelf components can be used in it.
OS4 has gone away from the Amiga spirit to run on a CPU that`s faster than
the 68k line, but closer to PC philosophy, where one CPU runs everything.
NatAmi goes back to the old idea by using a new chip-set that`s magnitudes
faster than the original, while adding new features as well.
Of course with AmigaOS being closed source, we are stuck at v3.9 - the
last that still used the chip-set, limited to AGA. But then it is easy to
patch, or maybe AROS could take its place, which is open source, so it can
be adapted to use all the new features of the hardware too. In fact that
IS an OS totally new from the ground up, just as you asked for above. :-D
Anssi Saari
> The Amiga was a new concept back in 1985. I want something NEW and
> FRESH for the 21st century. Something that goes far beyond anything we
> have today. Not just an updated clone of a 25 year old computer.
Well, how do you propose to do that? PC processors are the fastest
now. Even if they do start up as 8086s still, it doesn't matter at
all. So hardware wise you're stuck with the PC architecture if you
want performance at anything like reasonable price. You did want
something normal people can afford, not billionares?
> I want a new operating system, totally new from the ground up. Not
> just a new version of Amiga DOS.
>
> Is that too much to ask for?
I don't think it's really doable any more. All other operating systems
than Windows XP suffer from limited hardware support and lack of
applications. A huge effort would get you to something like what Linux
or Mac OS has. With a lesser effort... Well, there's OpenSolaris and
various BSDs you may want to study. I actually ran FreeBSD for a while
years ago, but the lack of even bluetooth and infrared remote support
finally made me go back to Linux. My few attempts to install some
version of Solaris on my PC didn't go anywhere.
Then there's the question of applications for the new system. People
would expect at least a web browser, email, office suite.
Realistically, you'd have to use free software for these and GUI
toolkits too. How could you beat everyone else in performance then?
Even Microsoft couldn't make Vista a real success and they certainly
don't lack resources. The 1980s was a simpler time. There were _many_
new concepts in personal computers back then. The PC won. Deal with
it.
Know1
"Anssi Saari" <a...@sci.fi> wrote in message news:vg37hy3...@sci.fi...
The PC didn`t win...we did, in our ability to say
we want more!!
Bob Edgeworthy
"Anssi Saari" <a...@sci.fi> wrote in message news:vg37hy3...@sci.fi...
Do you believe that the PC standard will be the last word in computing
FOREVER? Do you believe that 100 years from now we'll still be using PC
compatible systems?
I think open source may be the answer, but only with government backing. The
UK has a tax on every television set owned in their country. They use this
tax money to fund the BBC. Why not do the same with computing? Require every
computer owner to pay a reasonable tax with this money going to fund Linux
and other open source projects.
Maybe instead of a tax on every computer, tax every ISP account. That would
be easier to collect.
Bob Edgeworthy
"Hari Seldon" <hariseldon@7.9> wrote in message
news:h406v4$cft$1...@aioe.org...
The biggest problem is their choice of cpu - 68k compatible running at only
400 MHz. They should have gone with an Intel or AMD chip, unless there's
something better out there. Even Apple did that... I believe Commodore would
have done the same had they survived the 90's. Today's Amiga would probably
be a Core Duo system running a modern version of Amiga OS with a better
feature set than either OSX or Windows. Had they kept investing in the Amiga
chip set, they would probably own the graphics card industry. Nvidea and ATI
might have been forced out of business.
Had Commodore survived, the average computer user could be using a 64-bit
Amiga today instead of a PC or Mac. But they didn't.
I don't think the Natami has much of a future, except for a small group of
die-hard Amga fans... This project could be so much more.
Clocky
But you're happy to settle for much less.
If you really wanted more you would realise that the Amiga dream is long
over and it's time to move on.
Clocky
It stops being open source and free if everyone has to pay for it with a
tax.
As if we need more taxes forced upon us, where do you stop?
If people want to use half-baked operating systems they are free to but
don't expect the public to fund your hobby.
Mark McDougall
> Do you believe that the PC standard will be the last word in computing
> FOREVER? Do you believe that 100 years from now we'll still be using PC
> compatible systems?
Sadly, the answer is - probably.
The PC is becoming more of a commodity item each year. Innovations come and
go but at the end of the day, the winner is whoever had marketing appeal and
market share. Period. Technical specifiations, features and potential all
come a distant second in this race.
Computer hobbyists may sit around and discuss 100 reasons why a PowerPC
running Unix or a 68k running AmigaOS is preferable to an Intel chip running
Windows, but the reality is that 99.9% of the population couldn't give a
toss. And who do you think the PC makers are targetting?
In 100 years time, 99.9% of the users won't be able to tell you what the
name of the CPU _or_ OS is running on it - because it won't even be
advertised! You'll be more concerned that it's a Dell, or an ASUS - because
they're your favourite brand or because it comes in 6 different colours or
because there's a really hot chick on the ad - than anything else.
People that lament the passing of technology such as the Amiga and continue
to dream about "what if" and "if only", and insist that a re-imagining even
in modern technology is going to produce something wonderful and
technologically superiour simply have no absolutely idea what they're
talking about. Of course you never hear this kind of fluff from chip
designers and industry veterans - it's always the hobbyists and part-time
"experts".
The stark reality is that cpu design has left old technology in the dark
ages. I dislike Intel architecture but everything from 6-core processors
from AMD down to the new Intel Atom modules - despite some protestations to
the contrary - have actually been designed by people that do know a bit
about what they're doing. To claim otherwise - and that a new 68k could
compete even at the lowest end - is just laughable.
And I hate Windows as much as the next guy, and I also believe that linux is
way overhyped and has just as many problems - if not more - than Windows.
But if you think that any operating system built from the ground up is going
to offer anywhere close to what these systems - in development for decade
now - may offer in terms of features, then again you're sorely deluded. You
want speed and simplicity? Then you'll get that - with a massive reduction
in capabilities.
You may argue that the old Amiga did everything you need, and did it
quickly. The reason it was quick and simple is because... drum-roll... it
_was_ simple!!! After all, you can implement the whole bloody thing in an
FPGA clocked at 100MHz! If it works for you, then by all means dig up your
old Amiga and use it until the cows come home. But don't claim that simply
"modernising" it is the silver bullet we all need for supercomputing on the
desktop. It's complete and utter rubbish.
Regards,
--
| Mark McDougall | "Electrical Engineers do it
| <http://members.iinet.net.au/~msmcdoug> | with less resistance!"
Hari Seldon
If you disregard hype of `market share` and ideas of competition, then
basically we are all capable of using whatever we feel like using. It is a
personal choice, no matter if it is just a `feel` or the experience of
having worked with many kinds of computers for the past 44 years.
Some need speed, others don`t, some want bells and whistles, others don`t,
some like to be patronised by a system that does what it wants, when it
wants, while others don`t. Features are just there to make newbies able to
do things. I can design a webspace in Notepad, never use or need anything
like FrontPage or DreamWeaver, and the same goes for any other activity on
the computer that I care to use it for.
I am just grateful that there is still something available that isn`t the
`mainstream` - just as with cars, where there are choices between a Skoda
or a Porsche, a Mitsubishi or Ferrari, a 2CV or a classic Ford GT40, with
different levels of technology between them. It is not a "one design for
all" approach, nor would anyone in their right mind attempt to organise
races between them.
We are all individual and different, and trying to suppress that would be
madness, just like what John Malkovich saw in "Being John Malkovich"...
Anssi Saari
> Do you believe that the PC standard will be the last word in computing
> FOREVER? Do you believe that 100 years from now we'll still be using
> PC compatible systems?
Perhaps. Oh, I assume the oldest PC stuff and original PC
compatibility will drop away little by little and newer stuff comes
along. Fast serial replacing (or supplementing) parallel buses has
been a clear trend recently, for example. But it's amazing how desktop
motherboards still have all the legacy connections still. Floppy, PS2,
RS232, Centronics still kicking. Let alone the BIOS, accessed via old
ISA bus of all things. Well, Intel calls it "LPC" now. Laptops at
least sometimes do away with these, but even my ultraportable Portege
R500 has the ability to boot a floppy image from an SD card!
As for the next 100 years, I really have no idea. I'd say the biggest
thing is that oil will probably run out at some point. Who knows what
happens then. But assuming we still have abundant energy and no big
breakthroughs, it might well be that computers are similar to what we
have today. We've already ran into a limitation in how fast a single
CPU can be, so now parallelism is pushed. Maybe some breakthrough will
come from experiences and more research in that area. Or maybe quantum
computers will become practical, who knows again.
Mark McDougall
>> Bob Edgeworthy wrote:
>>
>>> Do you believe that the PC standard will be the last word in
>>> computing FOREVER? Do you believe that 100 years from now we'll still
>>> be using PC compatible systems?
> We are all individual and different, and trying to suppress that would
> be madness, just like what John Malkovich saw in "Being John Malkovich"...
I agree with you completely. Just as there are people who drive around in
vintage cars today, there will always be people like you and I and Bob that
enjoy being different, and take out the Amiga for a spin on a warm summer
Sunday afternoon.
I'm just pointing out that (a) we're in the minority and (b) that old Amiga
- or any derivative thereof - is never going to be the solution for the
future. And *yes* we will probably be using "PC standard" computers -
whatever that standard has morphed into by then.
PC are becoming applicances. 20 years ago Joe Public bought an IBM while us
enthusiasts selected our motherboard, graphics card, sound card,
multi-function I/O card, memory card, hard drive etc etc. These days, Joe
Public buys a Dell while we choose a motherboard and a graphics card -
everything else is either pre-determined by those choices or irrelevant
(Seagate/Western Digital? Who cares, one month Segate is better, next month
they're not). The difference now is that 20 years ago we were out-numbered
by Joe Public by 10-to-1, these days it's 100,000-to-1.
What CPU do you have in your TV now? What OS? You don't know? You don't
care? Of course not - and Joe Public won't care 100 years from now (most
don't today) when they're plonking down $100 for their 4th kid's laptop. Or
$200 for their media server. BTW They'll have 6 PCs in the house.
Hopefully, some crazy fool, somewhere, will still want to crank up the
Amigas I have sitting in my cupboard right now... ;)
prc1
** To respond, remove the crap from my addy... **
nyder
quit feeding the trolls.
I'm using google groups and all I had to do was click on the persons
name and see that they are a troll.
Here is the only messages they have ever made:
:
Activity in
barack obama hates the music of the 50s!!! fj.kanji May 12
men are too stupid to use a c64!!! fj.kanji May 12
barack obama is the worst president ever!!! fj.kanji May 12
roleplaying games are occult, dangerous and evil!!! fj.kanji May
12
men are too stupid for welding - welding is a job for women!!!
fj.kanji May 12
men are too stupid to use the atari st!!! fj.kanji May 12
women are the better linux-users!!! fj.kanji May 12
i boil and eat my used tampons!!! fj.kanji May 12
barack obama hates your kids!!! fj.kanji May 11
can i drive with bare breasts in a ford mustang??? fj.kanji May
11
So don't you all feel special explaining why you love your amigas?
Hari Seldon
Aren`t YOU clever! Actually figured out how to use some facilities - wow!
But that still doesn`t give you automatic rights to insult everyone.
Nor can you tell everyone what to do or not do. In a free democracy
everyone has the right to decide on their own actions. That will include
this unmoderated group too.
And don`t YOU feel special fretting about the odd troll post - which has
to include your own? Why on earth should peeps NOT post about their Amigas
in an Amiga related group? Just because YOU say so?
--
Hari.
Glen Watson
>
>> The Amiga was a new concept back in 1985. I want something NEW and
>> FRESH for the 21st century. Something that goes far beyond anything we
>> have today. Not just an updated clone of a 25 year old computer.
>
> Well, how do you propose to do that? PC processors are the fastest
> now. Even if they do start up as 8086s still, it doesn't matter at
> all. So hardware wise you're stuck with the PC architecture if you
> want performance at anything like reasonable price. You did want
> something normal people can afford, not billionares?
>
>> I want a new operating system, totally new from the ground up. Not
>> just a new version of Amiga DOS.
>>
>> Is that too much to ask for?
>
> I don't think it's really doable any more. All other operating systems
> than Windows XP suffer from limited hardware support and lack of
> applications. A huge effort would get you to something like what Linux
> or Mac OS has. With a lesser effort... Well, there's OpenSolaris and
> various BSDs you may want to study. I actually ran FreeBSD for a while
> years ago, but the lack of even bluetooth and infrared remote support
> finally made me go back to Linux. My few attempts to install some
> version of Solaris on my PC didn't go anywhere.
>
> Then there's the question of applications for the new system. People
> would expect at least a web browser, email, office suite.
Either emulation or Virtual PC (or something like it) should allow us to use
our existing applications while waiting for native applications for the new
OS.
Apple did the same thing when they replaced the old Mac OS and CPU
architecture with something totally new.