A Magic Incantation
xxx
Dear Scott & Barb,
You know how sometimes I can't sleep. Well, the other
night I tossed and turned while some random thoughts and
odd coincidences whirled around in my head. For what its
worth ;
About 120 years ago :
1. agriculture and basic manufacturing were the foundations
of economic wealth for all countries. service industries
hardly existed, save on the local level, ie: local shoe
and similar repair shops, and unniversities. financial,
social, entertainment service industries did not exist.
most of the world's population lived in rural areas. but
even the city dwellers worked in the manufacture, sale
or distribution of some kind of real goods. stock exchanges
and banking were still limited to a wealthy few. all nations
based their currencies on gold and silver, gold and silver
coins were still in common usage for exchange.
2. life for the average soul was marked by 6 days of hard
work and one day of rest. life demanded adherence to
strict and high standards of character and conduct.
failure brought immediate consequences that took a long
time to overcome and atone for. faith and trust were
absolute necessities for survival. genuine repentance
and acts of contrition were demanded for transgressions.
predjudices and divisions were made on class, race, ehnic,
and religious lines. people segregated themselves into
communities / nations of like kind. differences were
seldom tolerated gracefully, if at all.
3. V. Lenin was just a small boy who worshiped his
older brother, who was an anarchist who helped
in the bombing of Tsar Alexander's carraige.
Tsar Alexander's son, Nicholas, was the Tsar
that Lenin and the Bolsheviks later overthrew.
Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were boys.
4. American robber barons like J.P. Morgan, Vanderbilt,
John Rockafeller, Andrew Carnegie, were just getting
started. the modern corporation had yet to be born,
credit, even for the wealthy and privileged few, was
limited to the extent of the gold that garaunteed it.
the federal government's ability to tax was limited
to tariffs on foriegn trade, and the odd " war tax ".
military service was voluntary. the army was, for
the most part, disbanded after each war. the federal
government was severely limited in its ability to
create and use credit of any kind.
5. the Monroe Doctrine, forbidding American involvement
in foriegn adventures / wars, was still official
American foriegn policy. the Homestead act was still
in effect. federal agencies / bureauacracies like
the fbi, cia, batf, irs, hud, ssa, did not exist.
there were no state / local property or sales taxes.
no building permits, no licenses or regulations on
use of roads, vehicles, weapons, drugs, marriages.
since the American constitution does not provide for,
and the framers had a morbid fear of such, there was
no federal police force. the state governors and
local legislatures, together with the US Senate held
the real reigns of power. the artificial and anti-
constitutional creature, the executive order, had
not been hatched.
6. Otto Diamler was still experimenting with his one
lung engines. Thomas Edison, the Wright brothers,
Albert Einstein, Marconi, Nikoai Tesla, were all boys.
Firestone, Ford, Kellog, Sony, were just family names.
industrial enterprise meant sweat shops, tenements,
company stores / schools / medical clinincs. most
commercial trade was local, and in cash. unions were
a new radical idea for which organizers were regularly
murdered by company goon squads.
7. petroleum based engines, electricity and its offspring
were all scientific curiousities. Charles Darwin's
theory was an intellectual oddity, not an accepted idea.
Sigmund Freud was still a schoolboy. the skyscraper
and the real estate development industry were not yet
thought of. with the exception of professional mariners,
the wealthy and privileged, and refugees, travel was
largely confined to local, and or, continental areas.
8. pharmaceuticals and life saving drugs did not exist.
life saving surgery was limited to extraction of foriegn
objects and amputations. genetic manipulation was
practiced on animals via animal husbandry, and limited
in humans to the same : taboos against marrying close
relatives. all drugs and narcotics were legal for
purchase by anyone , there was little to no drug problem.
9. abortion, delinquencies, illegitimacies of all types,
dereliction of any form of personal responsibility,
making of excuses, bankruptcies, immoral behaviour,
lack of character, lack of honor, lying, cheating,
all were grounds for denying somone a position of trust
and responsibility in any office public or private.
in many cases they were sufficient grounds for civil
and criminal prosecution.
10. there is a story that an American Minister in 1878
"overheard" God and the devil talking, and God granted
the devil an additional 120 years in which to do his worst.
If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation and take away
the petroleum based economy and its artifacts ; the car, trucks,
busses, airplanes, synthetic fibers / materials / plastics / rubber,
pharmeceuticals, and get rid of electricity and its artifacts ;
telephones, radio, television, modern refrigeration, computers,
electronic transaction processing, modern sewage and water treatment,
modern heating / cooling of buildings ;
we would literally have stepped into a time machine and traveled back
about 120 years to the moments when the 20th century was being conceived.
If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation, maybe it would be like :
" Y2K; the Millenium Bug ".
docd...@clark.net
In article <01bda51d$71017f00$0300...@nils.eskimo.com>,
xxx <___@___.org> wrote:
>Dear Scott & Barb,
>
>You know how sometimes I can't sleep.
[snippage of 'Ah, the Olden Days!']
Why Mr Ludd, how nice to see you! And how are all the little Luddites?
DD
Patrick Logan
xxx <___@___.org> wrote:
: About 120 years ago... yadda, yadda, yadda...
: we would literally have stepped into a time machine and traveled
: back about 120 years to the moments when the 20th century was being
: conceived.
: If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation, maybe it would be
: like...
: " Y2K; the Millenium Bug ".
Except there's at least one problem with this fantasy - 120 years ago
most people lived on the farm and were independent of 1990's
technology. Today most live in the city and are dependent on 19990's
technology.
That doesn't make for a smooth transition.
--
Patrick Logan (H) mailto:plo...@teleport.com
(W) mailto:patr...@gemstone.com
http://www.gemstone.com
Richard Jackson
xxx wrote:
> Dear Scott & Barb,
>
> You know how sometimes I can't sleep. Well, the other
> night I tossed and turned while some random thoughts and
> odd coincidences whirled around in my head. For what its
> worth ;
>
> About 120 years ago :
>
> 1. agriculture and basic manufacturing were the foundations
> of economic wealth for all countries. service industries
> hardly existed, save on the local level, ie: local shoe
> and similar repair shops, and unniversities. financial,
> social, entertainment service industries did not exist.
> most of the world's population lived in rural areas. but
> even the city dwellers worked in the manufacture, sale
> or distribution of some kind of real goods. stock exchanges
> and banking were still limited to a wealthy few. all nations
> based their currencies on gold and silver, gold and silver
> coins were still in common usage for exchange.
>
I would hardly call Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, Erie,
Pennsylvania, etc Railroads local service industries, Western
Union was hardly a local service industry.
Why is it that entepeneurs are always called robber baronsor some
such? Those same "robber barons" gave back to
society in the forms of libraries, universities, museums, etc.
They were the reason that taxation was at a minimum, they
invested n US Treasurey bonds, notes, etc.
> 5. the Monroe Doctrine, forbidding American involvement
> in foriegn adventures / wars, was still official
> American foriegn policy. the Homestead act was still
> in effect. federal agencies / bureauacracies like
> the fbi, cia, batf, irs, hud, ssa, did not exist.
> there were no state / local property or sales taxes.
> no building permits, no licenses or regulations on
> use of roads, vehicles, weapons, drugs, marriages.
> since the American constitution does not provide for,
> and the framers had a morbid fear of such, there was
> no federal police force. the state governors and
> local legislatures, together with the US Senate held
> the real reigns of power. the artificial and anti-
> constitutional creature, the executive order, had
> not been hatched.
>
The Monroe Doctrine did *WHAT*? You better read itsometime (if you can
find a copy these days).
The US Senate *was* elected by the state legislatures.
> 6. Otto Diamler was still experimenting with his one
> lung engines. Thomas Edison, the Wright brothers,
> Albert Einstein, Marconi, Nikoai Tesla, were all boys.
> Firestone, Ford, Kellog, Sony, were just family names.
> industrial enterprise meant sweat shops, tenements,
> company stores / schools / medical clinincs. most
> commercial trade was local, and in cash. unions were
> a new radical idea for which organizers were regularly
> murdered by company goon squads.
>
> 7. petroleum based engines, electricity and its offspring
> were all scientific curiousities. Charles Darwin's
> theory was an intellectual oddity, not an accepted idea.
> Sigmund Freud was still a schoolboy. the skyscraper
> and the real estate development industry were not yet
> thought of. with the exception of professional mariners,
> the wealthy and privileged, and refugees, travel was
> largely confined to local, and or, continental areas.
>
Darwin's theory was and still is just a theory. Latter in life hewas
having second thoughts about it. I believe the second
thoughts commenced when he saw the Andes Mts., realizing
how young they were and the implications. It's the liberal arts
acamedics that consider his theory as "gospel".
> 8. pharmaceuticals and life saving drugs did not exist.
> life saving surgery was limited to extraction of foriegn
> objects and amputations. genetic manipulation was
> practiced on animals via animal husbandry, and limited
> in humans to the same : taboos against marrying close
> relatives. all drugs and narcotics were legal for
> purchase by anyone , there was little to no drug problem.
>
There *was* a drug "problem". Society handled it differently.
> 9. abortion, delinquencies, illegitimacies of all types,
> dereliction of any form of personal responsibility,
> making of excuses, bankruptcies, immoral behaviour,
> lack of character, lack of honor, lying, cheating,
> all were grounds for denying somone a position of trust
> and responsibility in any office public or private.
> in many cases they were sufficient grounds for civil
> and criminal prosecution.
>
> 10. there is a story that an American Minister in 1878
> "overheard" God and the devil talking, and God granted
> the devil an additional 120 years in which to do his worst.
>
> If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation and take away
> the petroleum based economy and its artifacts ; the car, trucks,
> busses, airplanes, synthetic fibers / materials / plastics / rubber,
> pharmeceuticals, and get rid of electricity and its artifacts ;
> telephones, radio, television, modern refrigeration, computers,
> electronic transaction processing, modern sewage and water treatment,
> modern heating / cooling of buildings ;
>
> we would literally have stepped into a time machine and traveled back
> about 120 years to the moments when the 20th century was being
> conceived.
>
> If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation, maybe it would be
> like :
> " Y2K; the Millenium Bug ".
Jackson
D. Scott Secor - Millennial Infarction Mitigator
You lost points from the use of revision history from the arts & croissant
crowd (e.g., check out the facts on the Monroe Doctrine); interesting, but
not much of a plot line; I enjoyed the irony in the closing paragraph ...
I'll give it a C+, I'm feeling generous tonight.
Was I supposed to grade this on the curve?
Ciao,
Scott Secor
(Now I know why I quit teaching college!)
xxx <___@___.org> wrote in message
<01bda51d$71017f00$0300...@nils.eskimo.com>...
>Dear Scott & Barb,
>
>You know how sometimes I can't sleep. Well, the other
>night I tossed and turned while some random thoughts and
>odd coincidences whirled around in my head. For what its
>worth ;
<el snippo grande>
Steve Dover
Excellent triple X!
Yes, we (the denizens of c.s.y2k) apparently all have
trouble sleeping (especially some), and the thoughts are like yours.
Every day seems like we are going 'Back To The Past' to me.
Some of us see that, but most of the public does not.
Just an hour ago, I got into another Y2k discussion (lecture?)
with some Pollyannas. I've given up, it's almost too late
to even bother waking up people.
Thanks for the post!
xxx wrote:
[snip the thoughts - see the original post]
> If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation and take away
> the petroleum based economy and its artifacts ; the car, trucks,
> busses, airplanes, synthetic fibers / materials / plastics / rubber,
> pharmeceuticals, and get rid of electricity and its artifacts ;
> telephones, radio, television, modern refrigeration, computers,
> electronic transaction processing, modern sewage and water treatment,
> modern heating / cooling of buildings ;
>
> we would literally have stepped into a time machine and traveled back
> about 120 years to the moments when the 20th century was being conceived.
>
> If I were to recite a secret, magic incantation, maybe it would be like :
> " Y2K; the Millenium Bug ".
--
Are you ready for year MM?
The Mother of all Messes.
548 Days to go before 'Ignorance is bliss' is obsolete.
news:comp.software.year-2000 Come for the signal, stay for the noise.
Patrick Logan
Richard Jackson <ajac...@onramp.net> wrote:
: Darwin's theory was and still is just a theory. Latter in life hewas
: having second thoughts about it. I believe the second
: thoughts commenced when he saw the Andes Mts., realizing
: how young they were and the implications. It's the liberal arts
: acamedics that consider his theory as "gospel".
Fortunately, scientists know all about the creation of the Andes due
to South America overriding the Nazca Plate. They know, too, that it
does not contradict anything else known about the evolutionary history
of life on Earth.
I don't know about liberal arts academics, but scientists have shown
evolution works the way it does as certainly as they have shown that
gravity will hold you to the Earth again tomorrow morning.
If you get depressed about the state of humanity, just remember that
God works in geological time! Another million years or so and the
affects of Y2K will be long since past.
Alan
Patrick Logan wrote in message ...
>Richard Jackson <ajac...@onramp.net> wrote:
>: Darwin's theory was and still is just a theory. Latter in life hewas
>: having second thoughts about it. I believe the second
>: thoughts commenced when he saw the Andes Mts., realizing
>: how young they were and the implications. It's the liberal arts
>: acamedics that consider his theory as "gospel".
>to South America overriding the Nazca Plate. They know, too, that it
>does not contradict anything else known about the evolutionary history
>of life on Earth.
They know do they, they must have been there when it happened huh.
>I don't know about liberal arts academics, but scientists have shown
>evolution works the way it does as certainly as they have shown that
>gravity will hold you to the Earth again tomorrow morning.
Is that so? You make it sound like it is all sown up. Gee, I thought they
just had a good theory, that fitted a bunch of situations, but it is far
from complete :-)
PaB
xxx
Some of you have have assumed that I am either a Liberal, or that
I have suffered under a Liberal education. Wrong on both counts.
I dropped out of high school more than 2 decades ago and am
self taught. Additionally, I am a "Goldwater" type conservative.
Some of you have criticized the posting assuming that it was a
" wish list " fantasy. It is not. I do not yearn to go back to the
"good ol' days" of the outhouse and typhus epidemic. You missed
the entire point of the article.
Y2K will reduce the world back more or less to its condition of
a 100 or so years ago. The petroleum/electical base of the global
economy and political structure will be smashed. The ability of
nations to project power around the globe will be severly limited.
Both the advantages and the disadvantages of the 29th century
will be erased.
To the "College Perfesser" , on behalf of the children of this country
may I say that I am immensely grateful that you have abandoned
a noble profession to which you were/are obviously ill qualified.
For your benefit I have included the full text of the Monroe Doctrine.
You will notice from the extracts below that it was indeed the official
policy of the United States for over 100 years to avoid foriegn
entanglements
and adventures. Protecting our interests on the North American continent
and within the Mexican Gulf perimeter do not constitute "foriegn".
"Our policy in regard to Europe, which was adopted at an early stage
of the wars which have so long agitated that quarter of the globe,
nevertheless remains the same, which is, not to interfere in the internal
concerns of any of its powers"
"It is still the true policy of the United States to
leave the parties to themselves in the hope that other powers will
pursue the same course"
===============================================================
Daniel's Copy of the Monroe Doctrine
The Monroe Doctrine was a part of President James Monroe's annual
message to Congress, given on 2 December 1823.
The Doctrine came about from the fight for South American independence.
The colonies of South America were following the ideas of America's
founders and rebelling against their colonial overlords. The U.S. had no
problem with this but waited until after Spain signed the 1821 treaty
giving Florida to the U.S. In 1823 the Doctrine was issued and had the
support of Great Britain. Britain supported the doctrine because the
Grand Alliance in Europe had given France permission to install the
Bourbon Dynasty in Spain. This would have put Spanish lands in French
control thus creating a French Empire. Britain had no love for this and
put their weight behind the doctrine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the proposal of the Russian Imperial Government, made through the
minister of the Emperor residing here, a full power and instructions
have been transmitted to the minister of the United States at St.
Petersburg to arrange by amicable negotiation the respective rights and
interests of the two nations on the northwest coast of this continent. A
similar proposal has been made by His Imperial Majesty to the Government
of Great Britain, which has likewise been acceded to. The Government of
the United States has been desirous by this friendly proceeding of
manifesting the great value which they have invariably attached to the
friendship of the Emperor and their solicitude to cultivate the best
understanding with his Government. In the discussion to which this
interest has given rise and in the arrangements by which they may
terminate the occasion has been judged proper for asserting, as a
principle in which the rights and interests of the United States are
involved, that the American continents, by the free and independent
condition which they have assumed and maintain, are henceforth not to be
considered as subjects for future colonization by any European power.
It was then stated at the commencement of the last session that a great
effort was then making in Spain and Portugal to improve the condition of
the people of those countries, and that it appeared to be conducted with
extraordinary moderation. It need scarcely be remarked that the result
has been so far very different from what was then anticipated. Of events
in that quarter of the globe, with which we have so much intercourse and
from which we derive our origin, we have always been anxious and
interested spectators. The citizens of the United States cherish
sentiments the most friendly in favor of the liberty and happiness of
their fellow-men on that side of the Atlantic. In the wars of the
European powers in matters relating to themselves we have never taken
any part, nor does it comport with our policy so to do. It is only when
our rights are invaded or seriously menaced that we resent injuries or
make preparations for our defense. With the movements in this hemisphere
we are of necessity more immediately connected, and by causes which must
be obvious to all enlightened and impartial observers. The political
system of the allied powers is essentially different in this respect
from that of America. This difference proceeds from that which exists in
their respective Governments; and to the defense of our own, which has
been achieved by the loss of so much blood and treasure, and matured by
the wisdom of their most enlightened citizens, and under which we have
enjoyed unexampled felicity, this whole nation is devoted. We owe it,
therefore, to candor and to the amicable relations existing between the
United States and those powers to declare that we should consider any
attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this
hemisphere as dangerous to our peace and safety. With the existing
colonies or dependencies of any European power we have not interfered
and shall not interfere. But with the Governments who have declared
their independence and maintained it, and whose independence we have, on
great consideration and on just principles, acknowledged, we could not
view any interposition for the purpose of oppressing them, or
controlling in any other manner their destiny, by any European power in
any other light than as the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition
toward the United States. In the war between those new Governments and
Spain, we declared our neutrality at the time of their recognition, and
to this we have adhered, and shall continue to adhere, provided no
change shall occur which, in the judgment of the competent authorities
of this Government, shall make a corresponding change on the part of the
United States indispensable to their security.
The late events in Spain and Portugal shew that Europe is still
unsettled. Of this important fact no stronger proof can be adduced than
that the allied powers should have thought it proper, on any principle
satisfactory to themselves, to have interposed by force in the internal
concerns of Spain. To what extent such interposition may be carried, on
the same principle, is a question in which all independent powers whose
governments differ from theirs are interested, even those most remote,
and surely none more so than the United States. Our policy in regard to
Europe, which was adopted at an early stage of the wars which have so
long agitated that quarter of the globe, nevertheless remains the same,
which is, not to interfere in the internal concerns of any of its
powers; to consider the government de facto as the legitimate government
for us; to cultivate friendly relations with it, and to preserve those
relations by a frank, firm, and manly policy, meeting in all instances
the just claims of every power, submitting to injuries from none. But in
regard to these continents circumstances are eminently and conspicuously
different. It is impossible that the allied powers should extend their
political system to any portion of either continent without endangering
our peace and happiness; nor can anyone believe that our southern
brethren, if left to themselves, would adopt it of their own accord. It
is equally impossible, therefore, that we should behold such
interposition in any form with indifference. If we look to the
comparative strength and resources of Spain and those new Governments,
and their distance from each other, it must be obvious that she can
never subdue them. It is still the true policy of the United States to
leave the parties to themselves in the hope that other powers will
pursue the same course...
The Goobers
> >: having second thoughts about it. I believe the second
> >: thoughts commenced when he saw the Andes Mts., realizing
> >: how young they were and the implications. It's the liberal arts
> >: acamedics that consider his theory as "gospel".
> >to South America overriding the Nazca Plate. They know, too, that it
> >does not contradict anything else known about the evolutionary history
> >of life on Earth.
>
> They know do they, they must have been there when it happened huh.
Oh dear... is there no other way to 'know' anything?
DD
The Goobers
xxx wrote:
>
> Some of you have have assumed that I am either a Liberal, or that
> I have suffered under a Liberal education. Wrong on both counts.
> I dropped out of high school more than 2 decades ago and am
> self taught. Additionally, I am a "Goldwater" type conservative.
Well, that explains a few things...
>
> Some of you have criticized the posting assuming that it was a
> " wish list " fantasy. It is not. I do not yearn to go back to the
> "good ol' days" of the outhouse and typhus epidemic. You missed
> the entire point of the article.
>
> Y2K will reduce the world back more or less to its condition of
> a 100 or so years ago. The petroleum/electical base of the global
> economy and political structure will be smashed. The ability of
> nations to project power around the globe will be severly limited.
British Empire... the 'Great White Fleet' (only 80-odd years back)...
yup, no evidence of ability to project power there.
> Both the advantages and the disadvantages of the 29th century
> will be erased.
'Erased'? The libraries will disappear? The thoughts, the teachings
of, say, Einstein or Marx, will magically be... erased?
>
> To the "College Perfesser" , on behalf of the children of this country
> may I say that I am immensely grateful that you have abandoned
> a noble profession to which you were/are obviously ill qualified.
On what basis do you judge *anyone's* capabilities as a 'college
perfesser'?
[snippage of the Monroe Doctrine]
Oh well... hey, time to bottle up the brainpower of half the population
by only allowing them to be wives, schoolmarms, teachers/librarians or
whores... talk about optimal use of resources!
DD
Jim B
> Snip all the stuff already flamed. . .
> Darwin's theory was and still is just a theory. Latter in life hewas
Oooh. . .*still just a theory* ? Do you suppose the writer implies or
infers that theory is not fact or fact based? 'Cause if'n theory ain't
factual, I ain't gittin' on no more of them thar jets, 'cause the
theories of aerodynamics and fluid dynamics is what they's been saying
they use to be makin' them thar jets fly.
Jim
The Resistance
xxx wrote:
>
> Dear Scott & Barb,
>
> You know how sometimes I can't sleep. Well, the other
> night I tossed and turned while some random thoughts and
> odd coincidences whirled around in my head. For what its
> worth ;
>
> About 120 years ago :
> 1. agriculture and basic manufacturing were the foundations
Wrong. Mining and agriculture have been, is, and will continue to be,
the basis of all industries. If it can't be grown, it's gotta be mined.
Dennis