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AlphaStation XP1000 Disk Replacement (Aftermarket)
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spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 4:02:29 AM11/22/15
to
Hello. I'm going to be buying an AlphaStation XP1000 soon but it doesn't come with a hard drive. After going through HP's documentation and cross-referencing the original part numbers, there are really no affordable disks listed on the internet after doing some searching.
According to HP, there were two standards of 80-pin disks supplied with 5 options.
They claim it can use either an Ultra 2 LVD Wide SCSI or an Ultra 3 LVD Wide SCSI disk, either 7200rpm or 10000rpm with a height of 1" and standard depth of 3.5" in all configurations. See http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04282135.pdf?ver=13 page 6 for this information.
The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I determined it was using 80 pins as opposed to 68.
BD01865CC4 -
http://www.cheappcupgrade.com/bd01865cc4.html
BD01864552 -
http://partsarcade.com/storage/hard-drives/scsi/hp-compaq-bd01864552-18.2gb-10k-rpm-3.5inch-80pin-hot-plug-scsi-hard-drive/
BD0186459A -
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8682222&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&scid=scplp4963737&gclid=CjwKEAiA7MWyBRDpi5TFqqmm6hMSJAD6GLeA6D57QWkTppBd-BlIZf6nwYuo9MZ6nlbt6Rv3PhYTXRoCFxTw_wcB
I would like to know if you believe any of those disks would work with an XP1000. Thanks for your time.
According to HP, there were two standards of 80-pin disks supplied with 5 options.
They claim it can use either an Ultra 2 LVD Wide SCSI or an Ultra 3 LVD Wide SCSI disk, either 7200rpm or 10000rpm with a height of 1" and standard depth of 3.5" in all configurations. See http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04282135.pdf?ver=13 page 6 for this information.
The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I determined it was using 80 pins as opposed to 68.
BD01865CC4 -
http://www.cheappcupgrade.com/bd01865cc4.html
BD01864552 -
http://partsarcade.com/storage/hard-drives/scsi/hp-compaq-bd01864552-18.2gb-10k-rpm-3.5inch-80pin-hot-plug-scsi-hard-drive/
BD0186459A -
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8682222&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&scid=scplp4963737&gclid=CjwKEAiA7MWyBRDpi5TFqqmm6hMSJAD6GLeA6D57QWkTppBd-BlIZf6nwYuo9MZ6nlbt6Rv3PhYTXRoCFxTw_wcB
I would like to know if you believe any of those disks would work with an XP1000. Thanks for your time.
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 5:24:40 AM11/22/15
to
I found in another post that a 36.4 GB HP DDYS-T36950 Internal SCSI 10000 RPM Hard Drive (U160) would supposedly work. Opinions?
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Nov 22, 2015, 6:15:53 AM11/22/15
to
In article <9fc262d0-c384-4837...@googlegroups.com>,
What will you pay?
> but it doesn't c=
> ome with a hard drive. After going through HP's documentation and cross-re=
> ferencing the original part numbers, there are really no affordable disks l=
for free.
> The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card which =
> by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I determined i=
for SBB disks. Set up HBVS. You should be able to pick up all of this
stuff for free.
What will you pay?
> but it doesn't c=
> ome with a hard drive. After going through HP's documentation and cross-re=
> ferencing the original part numbers, there are really no affordable disks l=
> isted on the internet after doing some searching.
I have picked up many XP1000 machines, and disks which work with them,
for free.
> The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card which =
> by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I determined i=
> t was using 80 pins as opposed to 68.
Get an external box and put the disks in that, not in the machine. Go
for SBB disks. Set up HBVS. You should be able to pick up all of this
stuff for free.
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 6:25:12 AM11/22/15
to
I found 36.4 GB HP DDYS-T36950 Internal SCSI 10000 RPM Hard Drive D9419-6000 with tray for $38. I don't know what SBB or HBVS is since I'm new to DEC tech. Could you please explain?
Thanks
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 7:19:52 AM11/22/15
to
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Nov 22, 2015, 9:31:28 AM11/22/15
to
In article <ad512609-298d-4eec...@googlegroups.com>,
one can just slide in and out of an external shelf. Otherwise you have
to shut down the machine, turn off the power, open it, get out the disk,
put in a new one, close it, power it up, boot it. With SBB disk, you
can just swap them while the machine is running, for example if a disk
fails or if you want to put in a new one (perhaps with more capacity).
HBVS is host-based volume shadowing. Basically, two to six physical
disks are combined into one virtual disk. Advantage: If a disk fails,
your data are still there. You can also put the physical disks on
different nodes in a cluster and keep the data available to the cluster
even when you reboot one machine.
spa...@gmail.com writes:
I don't know what SBB or HBVS is since I'm new to DEC
> tech. Could you please explain?
SBB is "Storage Works building block". These are disks in a caddy which
I don't know what SBB or HBVS is since I'm new to DEC
> tech. Could you please explain?
one can just slide in and out of an external shelf. Otherwise you have
to shut down the machine, turn off the power, open it, get out the disk,
put in a new one, close it, power it up, boot it. With SBB disk, you
can just swap them while the machine is running, for example if a disk
fails or if you want to put in a new one (perhaps with more capacity).
HBVS is host-based volume shadowing. Basically, two to six physical
disks are combined into one virtual disk. Advantage: If a disk fails,
your data are still there. You can also put the physical disks on
different nodes in a cluster and keep the data available to the cluster
even when you reboot one machine.
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 9:43:43 AM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 8:31:28 AM UTC-6, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> SBB is "Storage Works building block". These are disks in a caddy which
> one can just slide in and out of an external shelf.
>
Are you talking about something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/A7394A-HP-StorageWorks-SAN-Switch-4Gb-32-licensed-ports-Brocade-SilkWorm4100-SFP-/400827184122?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
> SBB is "Storage Works building block". These are disks in a caddy which
> one can just slide in and out of an external shelf.
>
> Advantage: If a disk fails, your data are still there. You can also put the
> physical disks on different nodes in a cluster and keep the data available
> to the cluster even when you reboot one machine.
Sounds useful.
> physical disks on different nodes in a cluster and keep the data available
> to the cluster even when you reboot one machine.
How does it interface with an Alpha machine? Is there something special I have to buy for the workstation? I'm familiar with NAS, but not so much with SAN. Afaik OpenVMS has NFS available, so wouldn't it be cheaper for me to buy a 9.1GB Ultra Wide SCSI (LVDS) for the OS, a gbit card (DEGPA-SA) over cat6-e for $35 and map a share from a cheap x86 box that I have say 4x3TB SATA 3GBit/s or 6GBit/s in that?
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Nov 22, 2015, 11:03:47 AM11/22/15
to
In article <1f09d07b-0de2-420d...@googlegroups.com>,
> have to buy for the workstation? I'm familiar with NAS, but not so much wi=
> th SAN. Afaik OpenVMS has NFS available, so wouldn't it be cheaper for me =
> to buy a 9.1GB Ultra Wide SCSI (LVDS) for the OS, a gbit card (DEGPA-SA) ov=
> er cat6-e for $35 and map a share from a cheap x86 box that I have say 4x3T=
Nothing fancy. (HBVS can be used with any sort of disk, but SCSI is the
cheapest option for an XP1000.) Sure, other things are possible, but
this is probably the simplest setup.
> > Advantage: If a disk fails, your data are still there.
> How does it interface with an Alpha machine? Is there something special I =
> have to buy for the workstation? I'm familiar with NAS, but not so much wi=
> th SAN. Afaik OpenVMS has NFS available, so wouldn't it be cheaper for me =
> to buy a 9.1GB Ultra Wide SCSI (LVDS) for the OS, a gbit card (DEGPA-SA) ov=
> er cat6-e for $35 and map a share from a cheap x86 box that I have say 4x3T=
> B SATA 3GBit/s or 6GBit/s in that?
You just connect it with a normal SCSI cable to a normal SCSI card.
Nothing fancy. (HBVS can be used with any sort of disk, but SCSI is the
cheapest option for an XP1000.) Sure, other things are possible, but
this is probably the simplest setup.
Steven Schweda
Nov 22, 2015, 12:27:48 PM11/22/15
to
> The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI
> SCSI card which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on
> the photo is how I determined it was using 80 pins as opposed
> to 68.
Look again? My KZPBA-CA/CX cards and my (newer/faster)
> SCSI card which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on
> the photo is how I determined it was using 80 pins as opposed
> to 68.
KZPCA cards all have 68-pin connectors. The additional pins
on an 80-pin connector carry things like power and SCSI ID,
which make little or no sense on an adapter card.
An XP1000 should have an on-board port equivalent to a
KZPBA (also 68-pin, as I recall).
On-board:
Device PKA0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
KZPBA-CA/CX:
Device PKB0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
KZPCA:
Device PKC0:, device type SYM53C895 LVD SCSI, [...]
Almost all my disks are Seagate 80-pin SCA (because they
were cheaper and more plentiful than 68-pin/wide disks), with
68-conductor cables and 80-to-68-pin adapters. It's been
years since I bought any of these things, but, as I recall,
the dual-putpose 80-to-50/68 adapters caused problems with
the Ultra160 KZPCA cards/cables/disks.
Disk ALP$DKC0:, device type SEAGATE ST373207LC, [...]
Note that that's an Ultra320 drive, but it works (as
expected) with an Ultra160 KZPCA card. (And, I'd bet, with a
slower KZPBA card, too, but I moved my disks to KZPCA cards
years ago.) I choose 10k over 7200 r/m for speed. In an
XP1000, I'd avoid 15k for heat. (But if you can find a 15k
drive with lower power numbers than a similar 10k drive, then
why not?)
On the grounds of age alone, I'd be looking for sizes like
146GB or 73GB, not anything so old/small as 36GB or (worse)
18GB. At one time, one could find cheap "new" ones on Ebay,
which I'd tend to trust more than "refurbished" (which can
mean only that the dirt was wiped off the shell, not that the
bearings were replaced, or any other actual refurbishment was
done).
I'd expect practically any SCA disk to work (with an
appropriate adapter), but/so I would be trying to find a
good/nice one, not necessarily one marked "Compaq" or "HP".
A DEGXA (or equivalent) gigabit Ethernet card makes a nice
change, too. At one time, the full 2GB of memory could be
pretty cheap, too.
> Get an external box and put the disks in that, not in the
> machine.
Steven Schweda
Nov 22, 2015, 12:46:33 PM11/22/15
to
A quick look at Amazon (for "seagate scsi") suggests that
"new" 73GB, 146GB, and 300GB drives can all be found for
under $50. Why even consider anything so old as a 9GB drive?
> [...] but i found 2x1gb ecc 100mhz compaq for $46 [...]
Eh? You want (8) 256MB modules. The key descriptor is
"PC100-222-622R". That's CAS Latency (CL) 2, registered.
The biggest ones which are known to work are 256MB. (512MB
failed.) Some part numbers:
Micron MT18LSDT3272G-10EE1 Crucial CT32M72S4R8E.18T Compaq 110958-032
(Those have a label: "256MB, Sync, 100MHz, CL2, ECC".)
Probable: Infineon HYS72V32201GR-8-C2
"new" 73GB, 146GB, and 300GB drives can all be found for
under $50. Why even consider anything so old as a 9GB drive?
> [...] but i found 2x1gb ecc 100mhz compaq for $46 [...]
Eh? You want (8) 256MB modules. The key descriptor is
"PC100-222-622R". That's CAS Latency (CL) 2, registered.
The biggest ones which are known to work are 256MB. (512MB
failed.) Some part numbers:
Micron MT18LSDT3272G-10EE1 Crucial CT32M72S4R8E.18T Compaq 110958-032
(Those have a label: "256MB, Sync, 100MHz, CL2, ECC".)
Probable: Infineon HYS72V32201GR-8-C2
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 1:25:38 PM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 11:27:48 AM UTC-6, Steven Schweda wrote:
> Look again? My KZPBA-CA/CX cards and my (newer/faster)
> KZPCA cards all have 68-pin connectors. The additional pins
> on an 80-pin connector carry things like power and SCSI ID,
> which make little or no sense on an adapter card.
I was looking at the other unit, and was misled by the DEC service manual where it didn't make mention of what the XP1000's internal SCSI adapter was, citing the addon, which isn't actually necessary. How many disks can the internal adapter support?
> Look again? My KZPBA-CA/CX cards and my (newer/faster)
> KZPCA cards all have 68-pin connectors. The additional pins
> on an 80-pin connector carry things like power and SCSI ID,
> which make little or no sense on an adapter card.
> An XP1000 should have an on-board port equivalent to a
> KZPBA (also 68-pin, as I recall).
> Almost all my disks are Seagate 80-pin SCA (because they
> were cheaper and more plentiful than 68-pin/wide disks)
> Note that that's an Ultra320 drive, but it works (as
> expected) with an Ultra160 KZPCA card.
> On the grounds of age alone, I'd be looking for sizes like
> 146GB or 73GB, not anything so old/small as 36GB or (worse)
> 18GB. At one time, one could find cheap "new" ones on Ebay,
> which I'd tend to trust more than "refurbished" (which can
> mean only that the dirt was wiped off the shell, not that the
> bearings were replaced, or any other actual refurbishment was
> done).
> I'd expect practically any SCA disk to work (with an
> appropriate adapter), but/so I would be trying to find a
> good/nice one, not necessarily one marked "Compaq" or "HP".
> A DEGXA (or equivalent) gigabit Ethernet card makes a nice
> change, too. At one time, the full 2GB of memory could be
> pretty cheap, too.
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 1:26:26 PM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:03:47 AM UTC-6, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> You just connect it with a normal SCSI cable to a normal SCSI card.
> Nothing fancy. (HBVS can be used with any sort of disk, but SCSI is the
> cheapest option for an XP1000.) Sure, other things are possible, but
> this is probably the simplest setup.
So what I cited is what you would use, more or less?
> You just connect it with a normal SCSI cable to a normal SCSI card.
> Nothing fancy. (HBVS can be used with any sort of disk, but SCSI is the
> cheapest option for an XP1000.) Sure, other things are possible, but
> this is probably the simplest setup.
Stephen Hoffman
Nov 22, 2015, 1:37:33 PM11/22/15
to
On 2015-11-22 09:02:22 +0000, spa...@gmail.com said:
> ...SCSI...
Learn the basics of the SCSI bus, if you want to understand how this
stuff works. Start here:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/639 — KZPBA documentation links
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/54 — StorageWorks Intro — definitely
download and read the DEC SCSI developer documents linked from the end
of that, too.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/910 — addressing limits
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1414
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/114 — intro to the VMS I/O model, how
the software views these giblets, once you get the bus connected and
working.
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/scsi_doc.html
Basically, figure out what connector and pinout you want to use inside
the box — VHDCI is the most recent and fastest choice, but your SCSI
controller is apparently pretty old and uses 68-pin, and that means you
can cable to other disks using a SCSI ribbon cable with 68-pin
connectors and SCSI adapters — 68-pin to whatever — where that's
appropriate for a particular SCSI device. XP1000 box takes pretty
much any ribbon cable you want or need for SCSI (and a second for IDE),
and you can then connect whichever mix of SCSI devices you are able to
scrounge. Or scrounge a (supported) VHDCI controller, and use a VHDCI
ribbon cable in the XP1000.
The power connections for parallel disks are compatible across all of
the SCSI parallel disks I've worked with, and the XP1000 power supply
can feed any of the disks you're likely to find.
Alternatively, cable to an external StorageWorks enclosure. The SBB
stuff — see the StorageWorks intro and linked documents — is probably
the quietest choice, if you don't have a dedicated server room or
acoustical cabinet. The newer "Universal" stuff — metal fins — is
usually much louder. The SBB bricks can be opened and disks swapped,
if you can find some suitable replacements. Those bricks used standard
SCSI 68-pin disks internally, IIRC.
Avoid high-voltage differential SCSI controllers and associated SCSI
devices — HVD — and stay with LVD SE or LVD MSE devices. LVD is
flexible, compatible, and it's the "newest" iteration of SCSI storage.
HVD isn't compatible with much else other than HVD — it was an old
approach that was meant to push the length of the SCSI bus further, and
you don't have that requirement here — and can reportedly fry your gear.
Learn the diamond-shaped SCSI icons that are used with most gear. Most
DEC SCSI gear used those icons, other than the oldest SCSI-1 stuff.
Specifically learn the HVD icon, so you don't get one of those in the
mix.
Here's a SCSI FAQ — the SCSI diamond-shaped icons used to identify the
different buses are shown at the bottom — which will answer most of the
general wrinkles.
http://www.paralan.com/scsifaq/scsifaqanswers4.html
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
> ...SCSI...
Learn the basics of the SCSI bus, if you want to understand how this
stuff works. Start here:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/639 — KZPBA documentation links
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/54 — StorageWorks Intro — definitely
download and read the DEC SCSI developer documents linked from the end
of that, too.
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/910 — addressing limits
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1414
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/114 — intro to the VMS I/O model, how
the software views these giblets, once you get the bus connected and
working.
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/scsi_doc.html
Basically, figure out what connector and pinout you want to use inside
the box — VHDCI is the most recent and fastest choice, but your SCSI
controller is apparently pretty old and uses 68-pin, and that means you
can cable to other disks using a SCSI ribbon cable with 68-pin
connectors and SCSI adapters — 68-pin to whatever — where that's
appropriate for a particular SCSI device. XP1000 box takes pretty
much any ribbon cable you want or need for SCSI (and a second for IDE),
and you can then connect whichever mix of SCSI devices you are able to
scrounge. Or scrounge a (supported) VHDCI controller, and use a VHDCI
ribbon cable in the XP1000.
The power connections for parallel disks are compatible across all of
the SCSI parallel disks I've worked with, and the XP1000 power supply
can feed any of the disks you're likely to find.
Alternatively, cable to an external StorageWorks enclosure. The SBB
stuff — see the StorageWorks intro and linked documents — is probably
the quietest choice, if you don't have a dedicated server room or
acoustical cabinet. The newer "Universal" stuff — metal fins — is
usually much louder. The SBB bricks can be opened and disks swapped,
if you can find some suitable replacements. Those bricks used standard
SCSI 68-pin disks internally, IIRC.
Avoid high-voltage differential SCSI controllers and associated SCSI
devices — HVD — and stay with LVD SE or LVD MSE devices. LVD is
flexible, compatible, and it's the "newest" iteration of SCSI storage.
HVD isn't compatible with much else other than HVD — it was an old
approach that was meant to push the length of the SCSI bus further, and
you don't have that requirement here — and can reportedly fry your gear.
Learn the diamond-shaped SCSI icons that are used with most gear. Most
DEC SCSI gear used those icons, other than the oldest SCSI-1 stuff.
Specifically learn the HVD icon, so you don't get one of those in the
mix.
Here's a SCSI FAQ — the SCSI diamond-shaped icons used to identify the
different buses are shown at the bottom — which will answer most of the
general wrinkles.
http://www.paralan.com/scsifaq/scsifaqanswers4.html
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 2:14:40 PM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 11:46:33 AM UTC-6, Steven Schweda wrote:
> A quick look at Amazon (for "seagate scsi") suggests that
> "new" 73GB, 146GB, and 300GB drives can all be found for
> under $50. Why even consider anything so old as a 9GB drive?
>
I found they are 80-pin and I only have the older built-in 68-pin to start with. So what does that mean? I understand I would need a newer KZPBA for U320 over 80-pin support.
> A quick look at Amazon (for "seagate scsi") suggests that
> "new" 73GB, 146GB, and 300GB drives can all be found for
> under $50. Why even consider anything so old as a 9GB drive?
>
I found on Amazon as was suggested by you: http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-300GB-Cheetah-80pin-ST3300007LC/dp/B003FOQGN8
KZPBA's seem to be going for $75 on eBay, a bit steep compared to the rather cheap 300GB above.
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 2:34:15 PM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 1:14:40 PM UTC-6, spa...@gmail.com wrote:
> KZPBA's seem to be going for $75 on eBay, a bit steep compared to the rather cheap 300GB above.
Nevermind, this seems pretty decent. Counted 80 pins.
> KZPBA's seem to be going for $75 on eBay, a bit steep compared to the rather cheap 300GB above.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-DEC-DIGITAL-KZPBA-CA-SINGLE-CHANNEL-PCI-TO-ULTRA-SCSI-SE-HOST-ADAPTER-/271825811818?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
What do you recommend for cabling the U320 to the KZPBA? I'm assuming the built-in 68-pin is directly pluggable.
Stephen Hoffman
Nov 22, 2015, 2:56:30 PM11/22/15
to
IDE or SCSI cables happen to be in the box when you get it — if any —
are trivally swappable for other cables.
Steven Schweda
Nov 22, 2015, 2:59:58 PM11/22/15
to
> [...] How many disks can the internal adapter support?
Probably more than there are bays in which to put them, if
you keep the cable reasonably short.
> I found they are 80-pin and I only have the older built-in
> 68-pin to start with. So what does that mean?
That means that you'd need an 80-to-68-pin adapter to use
one.
> I understand I would need a newer KZPBA for U320 over
> 80-pin support.
Even the KZPCA does only Ultra160, but you can use an
Ultra320 drive with anything; it just won't give you Ultra320
speed when connected to a slower adapter. All you need for
"80-pin support" is an 80-to-68-pin adapter on the disk. A
cable and terminator which say "UltraXXX" would be good, too,
if you're using a KZPCA.
> KZPBA's seem to be going for $75 on eBay, a bit steep
> compared to the rather cheap 300GB above.
A generic QLogic card which looks like a KZPBA may work,
too. For a KZPCA, you may need a DEC/Compaq/HP-branded one
if you want the VMS driver to use it.
> That was actually the question I meant to ask.
_What_ was?
> So you using recommend 80 pins? Native, or adapted?
I recommend using the cheapest/best drives available. If
that's SCA, then I use an 80-to-68-pin adapter. The SCSI
adapter cards are 68-pin. The cables/terminators are 68-pin.
If the disk is SCA, then you need an 80-to-68-pin adapter to
accommodate the SCA disk.
> $35 from two sources for the gigabit adapter.
A generic (cheaper?) card can have its ID fiddled to make
it look like a genuine DEGXA.
http://antinode.info/ftp/degxa/instructions.txt
> $46 total for 2 x 1gb (4x256mb) 100mhz ecc sdram, Compaq
> branded even.
Many Compaq-branded modules are the wrong ones. With my
weak psychic powers, I can't tell what you're seeing.
Probably more than there are bays in which to put them, if
you keep the cable reasonably short.
> I found they are 80-pin and I only have the older built-in
> 68-pin to start with. So what does that mean?
one.
> I understand I would need a newer KZPBA for U320 over
> 80-pin support.
Ultra320 drive with anything; it just won't give you Ultra320
speed when connected to a slower adapter. All you need for
"80-pin support" is an 80-to-68-pin adapter on the disk. A
cable and terminator which say "UltraXXX" would be good, too,
if you're using a KZPCA.
> KZPBA's seem to be going for $75 on eBay, a bit steep
> compared to the rather cheap 300GB above.
too. For a KZPCA, you may need a DEC/Compaq/HP-branded one
if you want the VMS driver to use it.
> That was actually the question I meant to ask.
> So you using recommend 80 pins? Native, or adapted?
that's SCA, then I use an 80-to-68-pin adapter. The SCSI
adapter cards are 68-pin. The cables/terminators are 68-pin.
If the disk is SCA, then you need an 80-to-68-pin adapter to
accommodate the SCA disk.
> $35 from two sources for the gigabit adapter.
it look like a genuine DEGXA.
http://antinode.info/ftp/degxa/instructions.txt
> $46 total for 2 x 1gb (4x256mb) 100mhz ecc sdram, Compaq
> branded even.
weak psychic powers, I can't tell what you're seeing.
John E. Malmberg
Nov 22, 2015, 5:03:11 PM11/22/15
to
On 11/22/2015 8:43 AM, spa...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 8:31:28 AM UTC-6, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> SBB is "Storage Works building block". These are disks in a caddy which
>> one can just slide in and out of an external shelf.
>>
> Are you talking about something like this:
<snip>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 8:31:28 AM UTC-6, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> SBB is "Storage Works building block". These are disks in a caddy which
>> one can just slide in and out of an external shelf.
>>
> Are you talking about something like this:
No. As explained by other replies, it is simply an external SCSI
enclosure. But you have to get one that is compatible with your SCSI
adapter. There are multiple flavors of course. The older enclosures
were strictly SCSI I/II. The newer enclosures used a personality module.
>> Advantage: If a disk fails, your data are still there. You can also put the
>> physical disks on different nodes in a cluster and keep the data available
>> to the cluster even when you reboot one machine.
> Sounds useful.
>
> How does it interface with an Alpha machine?
internal SCSI controller.
> Is there something special I have to buy for the workstation?
free for hobbyists very expensive as a separate commercial license.
> I'm familiar with NAS, but not so much with SAN.
the storage rack and either disks that are pre-packaged or empty packages.
Digital sold generic packages that you could put most SCSI disks in.
The Digital Prepackaged SBBs typically had cables that would only reach
identical disks as were originally in them. In those days there could
be quite a variation in where the power, SCSI, and status cables connected.
> Afaik OpenVMS has NFS available, so wouldn't it be cheaper for me to buy
> a 9.1GB Ultra Wide SCSI (LVDS) for the OS, a gbit card (DEGPA-SA) over
> cat6-e for $35 and map a share from a cheap x86 box that I have
> say 4x3TB SATA 3GBit/s or 6GBit/s in that?
Several of the disk utilities like Backup will not play well.
And I have had issues, mainly with HP TCP/IP Services 5.6 on emulated
Alphas, where a NFS I/O from a DCL command would simply hang for about 8
hours before completing.
I have learned how to avoid those issues for the most part and have been
using NFS served disks backed up on free DropBox for a few years now. I
have been using 32 bit Cygwin/NFSD.
I am assuming that this is a hobby setup.
My plan was to set up a Linux system with Gig-E to both NFS serve, and
also use a VAX/VMS system running on it mainly to be a disk serving
cluster member over the network. It turns out that my motherboard has
only the 100 Mbit variant of the chipset on it. So trying it with Gig-E
will have to wait.
In theory, you should be able to install VAX/VMS 7.3 on SimH and use it
to serve up to 1 Tib volumes to your Alpha running Alpha/VMS 7.3 by
combining them into a LAVC - Local Area VMS Cluster.
A note on HBVS:
Host Based Volume Shadowing needs SCSI disks that meet a minimum
compliance with VMS expectation. The ones that Digital/Compaq/HP sold
for VMS met this requirement. With third party SCSI disks, it may or may
not work. Most people seem to be lucky with the newer SCSI disks.
Regards,
-John
wb8...@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only
John E. Malmberg
Nov 22, 2015, 5:24:03 PM11/22/15
to
On 11/22/2015 12:26 PM, spa...@gmail.com wrote:
> So what I cited is what you would use, more or less?
I would start out with one of the free Alpha emulators for hobbyists.
> So what I cited is what you would use, more or less?
The FreeAXP one allows 2 ethernet adapters and allows installing the
IDLE loop detector package to reduce loading on the host. The main
downside is it requires Windows.
There are others that will run on Linux. I plan to be trying some of
them out. Some of them do not allow IDLE loop detection though in their
free hobbyist versions.
Once you get your Alpha Emulator set up, with OpenVMS 8.4, configure it
to be an OpenVMS Local Area VMS cluster.
Then you can configure your XP1000 as a satellite node to it and boot it
off the network.
A SimH/VAX with OpenVMS 7.3 can also be used for this, but with a bit
more work. Current SimH/VAX has idle loop detection in it.
With the Alpha Emulator and OpenVMS 8.4, you can set up the Infoserver
software - search hoffmanlabs.com for the write-up.
The Infoserver software will allow you to network install on your XP1000
with out forming A VMS Cluster first.
Regards,
-John
wb8...@qsl.network
Steven Schweda
Nov 22, 2015, 6:14:20 PM11/22/15
to
> [...] Counted 80 pins.
Try again? I don't know what you're counting. The gray
connector, "P2", is 50-pin narrow SCSI, as the
"1"-"2"--"49"-"50" silk-screening suggests. "J1" (external)
and "J2" (internal) are 68-pin wide SCSI, as the "1"-"33"
silk-screening at "J2" might also suggest. (The 68-pin
connector has two rows of holes, but the PCB side has (17)
groups of four pins.
> What do you recommend for cabling the U320 to the KZPBA?
> I'm assuming the built-in 68-pin is directly pluggable.
What's "the U320"? A disk drive?
I use 68-conductor cables with 68-pin connectors to join
the 68-pin connectors on the KZPxA adapters and the 68-pin
connectors on the 80-to-68-pin SCA adapters (on the 80-pin
SCA disk drives). It's all more obvious if you count the
connector pins correctly. With a KZPCA card, I use
cables/terminators which say "Ultra<anything>" on them. With
a (slower) KZPBA, cable quality matters less.
> There is no built-in SCSI cable in an AlphaStation XP1000.
The on-board SCSI adapter has its own board 68-pin
connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
cable).
If you don't have it already, there's a "Compaq
AlphaStation System Reference and Maintenance Guide
XP1000" kit, which can be educational.
http://antinode.info/ftp/misc/xp1000sg.exe
Just unzip it and point your Web browser to "aa_begin.htm".
Try again? I don't know what you're counting. The gray
connector, "P2", is 50-pin narrow SCSI, as the
"1"-"2"--"49"-"50" silk-screening suggests. "J1" (external)
and "J2" (internal) are 68-pin wide SCSI, as the "1"-"33"
silk-screening at "J2" might also suggest. (The 68-pin
connector has two rows of holes, but the PCB side has (17)
groups of four pins.
> What do you recommend for cabling the U320 to the KZPBA?
> I'm assuming the built-in 68-pin is directly pluggable.
I use 68-conductor cables with 68-pin connectors to join
the 68-pin connectors on the KZPxA adapters and the 68-pin
connectors on the 80-to-68-pin SCA adapters (on the 80-pin
SCA disk drives). It's all more obvious if you count the
connector pins correctly. With a KZPCA card, I use
cables/terminators which say "Ultra<anything>" on them. With
a (slower) KZPBA, cable quality matters less.
> There is no built-in SCSI cable in an AlphaStation XP1000.
connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
cable).
If you don't have it already, there's a "Compaq
AlphaStation System Reference and Maintenance Guide
XP1000" kit, which can be educational.
http://antinode.info/ftp/misc/xp1000sg.exe
Just unzip it and point your Web browser to "aa_begin.htm".
Scott Dorsey
Nov 22, 2015, 6:16:33 PM11/22/15
to
Steven Schweda <sms.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The on-board SCSI adapter has its own board 68-pin
>connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
>cable).
It's hard to tell what he is doing from his fragmentary descriptions, but
> The on-board SCSI adapter has its own board 68-pin
>connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
>cable).
I want to think he has an 80-pin SCSI disk and wants to plug the 68 pin
connector into it. There are inexpensive adaptors available on Ebay for
this; I think I paid $5 each the last time I bought some.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2015, 8:24:32 PM11/22/15
to
On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 5:16:33 PM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
My list which I hope based on what I've learned from you is complete (Minus the terminator):
KZPBA-CA-CX PCI to UltraSCSI SE Host Adapter
$25
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-KZPBA-CA-KZPBA-CX-PCI-to-UltraSCSI-SE-Host-Adapter-DS-KZPBA-CA-QLA1040-/262041926160?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
SCA 80 Female to SCSI HDD 68 Pin Female Ultra SCSI II/III LVD-SE Adapter
$8.50
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCA-80-Female-to-SCSI-HDD-68-Pin-Female-Ultra-SCSI-II-III-LVD-SE-Adapter-JB-/321824123637?hash=item4aee366af5:g:O2gAAOSwDNdVwYfA
6' MD68 M/M LVD Ultra2 SCSI-3 Cable (Thumbscrew)
$22
http://www.ebay.com/itm/C2g-6ft-Scsi-3-Ultra2-Lvd-se-Md68-M-m-Cable-thumbscrew-/131649296150?hash=item1ea6e8d716:g:PrEAAOSwhcJWQjsW
300gb HP / Fujitsu LVD/SE 10K RPM 80-Pin
$36
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Fujitsu-MAT3300NC-365695-003-300GB-80PIN-10K-RPM-SCSI-Hard-Drive-/321755733402?hash=item4aea22dd9a:g:bpMAAOSw3xJVVfZG
When I was looking into terminators I found the kind that goes at the end (I get this, because of CPU terminators in Sun systems), and some IDC adapters that claim to have active terminators. As far as enclosures go, I really struck out finding many affordable 80-pin native (Internal) options. Most out there I can find under $60 are 68-pins, while as you said U320 lineage ones are more likely to be in working condition, though with this sort of stuff I realize YMMV.
I found a Sun storage box for about $65 on eBay that claims to support both 68 and 80 pins and LVD. (68 pins out, 80 internal) I think for now I'll use the adapter board and cobble up something to keep the static away from the disks along with the cable to the Alpha until I can find a better solution. Secondhand StorageWorks options seem reasonable although I don't need to plug in a dozen disks at a time, though none state if they are LVD or not. Thanks again.
> Steven Schweda wrote:
> > The on-board SCSI adapter has its own board 68-pin
> >connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
> >cable).
>
> It's hard to tell what he is doing from his fragmentary descriptions, but
> I want to think he has an 80-pin SCSI disk and wants to plug the 68 pin
> connector into it.
That's correct. My apologies since it's been years since I last used even SPARC hardware.
> > The on-board SCSI adapter has its own board 68-pin
> >connector (to which you can attach a normal, 68-pin wide-SCSI
> >cable).
>
> It's hard to tell what he is doing from his fragmentary descriptions, but
> I want to think he has an 80-pin SCSI disk and wants to plug the 68 pin
> connector into it.
My list which I hope based on what I've learned from you is complete (Minus the terminator):
KZPBA-CA-CX PCI to UltraSCSI SE Host Adapter
$25
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-KZPBA-CA-KZPBA-CX-PCI-to-UltraSCSI-SE-Host-Adapter-DS-KZPBA-CA-QLA1040-/262041926160?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
SCA 80 Female to SCSI HDD 68 Pin Female Ultra SCSI II/III LVD-SE Adapter
$8.50
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCA-80-Female-to-SCSI-HDD-68-Pin-Female-Ultra-SCSI-II-III-LVD-SE-Adapter-JB-/321824123637?hash=item4aee366af5:g:O2gAAOSwDNdVwYfA
6' MD68 M/M LVD Ultra2 SCSI-3 Cable (Thumbscrew)
$22
http://www.ebay.com/itm/C2g-6ft-Scsi-3-Ultra2-Lvd-se-Md68-M-m-Cable-thumbscrew-/131649296150?hash=item1ea6e8d716:g:PrEAAOSwhcJWQjsW
300gb HP / Fujitsu LVD/SE 10K RPM 80-Pin
$36
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Fujitsu-MAT3300NC-365695-003-300GB-80PIN-10K-RPM-SCSI-Hard-Drive-/321755733402?hash=item4aea22dd9a:g:bpMAAOSw3xJVVfZG
When I was looking into terminators I found the kind that goes at the end (I get this, because of CPU terminators in Sun systems), and some IDC adapters that claim to have active terminators. As far as enclosures go, I really struck out finding many affordable 80-pin native (Internal) options. Most out there I can find under $60 are 68-pins, while as you said U320 lineage ones are more likely to be in working condition, though with this sort of stuff I realize YMMV.
I found a Sun storage box for about $65 on eBay that claims to support both 68 and 80 pins and LVD. (68 pins out, 80 internal) I think for now I'll use the adapter board and cobble up something to keep the static away from the disks along with the cable to the Alpha until I can find a better solution. Secondhand StorageWorks options seem reasonable although I don't need to plug in a dozen disks at a time, though none state if they are LVD or not. Thanks again.
Steven Schweda
Nov 22, 2015, 10:21:29 PM11/22/15
to
> I found a Sun storage box for about $65 on eBay [...]
Again, an actual model number might be more helpful than a
vague description. I use Sun 411 boxes (with cheap Sun
cables) for external disks (or optical drives), but I'd
expect higher speeds with internal disks/cables. A Sun 411
box can do termination automatically, so that would save one
worry.
My (internal) stuff looks more like (for example):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371093944034
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131502025304
> [...] and cobble up something to keep the static away from
> the disks [...]
Eh? What's not grounded?
Again, an actual model number might be more helpful than a
vague description. I use Sun 411 boxes (with cheap Sun
cables) for external disks (or optical drives), but I'd
expect higher speeds with internal disks/cables. A Sun 411
box can do termination automatically, so that would save one
worry.
My (internal) stuff looks more like (for example):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371093944034
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131502025304
> [...] and cobble up something to keep the static away from
> the disks [...]
Eh? What's not grounded?
David Froble
Nov 22, 2015, 11:37:17 PM11/22/15
to
As others have written, get some 68 pin disks, if available, or some 80 pin with
adapters.
David Froble
Nov 22, 2015, 11:40:58 PM11/22/15
to
don't know what to do with 9 GB disks. (I do use a 36 GB disk to backup
everything else.)
However, the smaller disks will be older, harder to find, and perhaps closer to
failing.
For a hobbyist system, and I'm guessing, shop price over anything else, well,
except for working with what you got.
Steven Schweda
Nov 23, 2015, 12:26:22 AM11/23/15
to
> [...] I don't know what to do with 9 GB disks. [...]
Neither do I. They're too small to be useful, except
perhaps on a VAX. If you need to justify more storage, then
you could try building many versions of, say, OpenSSL, or
doing some large-file (file and/or archive size > 4GB)
testing of Zip and UnZip (or VMSTAR, or ...). It doesn't
take very many 4GB files to exhaust a 9GB disk.
> [...] shop price over anything else [...]
If a new (or even "new") 146GB drive costs a few dollars
more than a tired, old, slow, power-hungry,
used/"refurbished" 18GB disk, then I'd probably not use price
as my primary criterion. In recent years (decades?) I've
probably replaced many more working-but-too-small disks than
I have failed disks. But others' situations may be
different.
Neither do I. They're too small to be useful, except
perhaps on a VAX. If you need to justify more storage, then
you could try building many versions of, say, OpenSSL, or
doing some large-file (file and/or archive size > 4GB)
testing of Zip and UnZip (or VMSTAR, or ...). It doesn't
take very many 4GB files to exhaust a 9GB disk.
> [...] shop price over anything else [...]
If a new (or even "new") 146GB drive costs a few dollars
more than a tired, old, slow, power-hungry,
used/"refurbished" 18GB disk, then I'd probably not use price
as my primary criterion. In recent years (decades?) I've
probably replaced many more working-but-too-small disks than
I have failed disks. But others' situations may be
different.
Steven Schweda
Nov 23, 2015, 1:06:38 AM11/23/15
to
> [...] I use Sun 411 boxes [...]
Oops. Make that "611". Bad memory (again). The 411 has
the small, 50-pin connectors (with clip retention), and does
not do its own termination. The 611 has 68-pin connectors
(with screw retention), and auto-terminates. Opening a 611
box may require less intuition (but stronger fingers) than a
411. (I do have a narrow-SCSI disk in a 411 box for my
SPARCstation IPC, but I do very little with SunOS 4.1.4 these
days.)
Oops. Make that "611". Bad memory (again). The 411 has
the small, 50-pin connectors (with clip retention), and does
not do its own termination. The 611 has 68-pin connectors
(with screw retention), and auto-terminates. Opening a 611
box may require less intuition (but stronger fingers) than a
411. (I do have a narrow-SCSI disk in a 411 box for my
SPARCstation IPC, but I do very little with SunOS 4.1.4 these
days.)
johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk
Nov 23, 2015, 7:29:10 AM11/23/15
to
neither VMS-specific nor Alpha-specific; the same SCSI challenges apply
in general, whichever vendors you pick.
*Some* of the neater DEC-specific stuff (such as host based volume
shadowing) does rely on features and behaviours which are not always
consistently or usefully implemented in 3rd party drives [1]. E.g.,
if you are using a multi-host SCSI bus in a VMScluster, the behaviour
of the drive in response to a SCSI bus reset can be quite important -
does a Reset potentially cause data loss, which might be tolerable in
some setups, but maybe not in a VMS cluster. Response to bad blocks
is, iirc, another area of interest.
Note that for a while, DEC did sell disk drives with generic
firmware at lower prices than the DEC-qualified firmware equivalents.
In some cases these Digital Storage Products (DSP) drives don't play
well in non-trivial environments (e.g. aforementioned multi-host SCSI).
Welcome to VMS, and best of luck.
Dennis Boone
Nov 23, 2015, 10:09:11 AM11/23/15
to
One more thought, for hobbyist purposes. There's a board that
emulates scsi drives, and stores data on SD cards:
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD
You'd need an adapter to support 68- or 80-pin cabling.
De
emulates scsi drives, and stores data on SD cards:
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=SCSI2SD
You'd need an adapter to support 68- or 80-pin cabling.
De
John Reagan
Nov 23, 2015, 4:40:57 PM11/23/15
to
newegg.com has several HP U320 drives in their Black Friday offerings at around 30% off. Some of which might be applicable here with the right adapters.
http://www.newegg.com/Storage/EventSaleStore/ID-46/Page-3
http://www.newegg.com/Storage/EventSaleStore/ID-46/Page-3
Chris
Nov 23, 2015, 6:58:50 PM11/23/15
to
On 11/22/15 09:02, spa...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello. I'm going to be buying an AlphaStation XP1000 soon but it
> doesn't come with a hard drive. After going through HP's
> documentation and cross-referencing the original part numbers, there
> are really no affordable disks listed on the internet after doing
> some searching.
>
> According to HP, there were two standards of 80-pin disks supplied
> with 5 options.
>
> They claim it can use either an Ultra 2 LVD Wide SCSI or an Ultra 3
> LVD Wide SCSI disk, either 7200rpm or 10000rpm with a height of 1"
> and standard depth of 3.5" in all configurations. See
> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04282135.pdf?ver=13 page 6
> for this information.
It really depends to start with what os you want to run on it. Vms
used to be quite fussy about what drives it would work with, but
if you plan to install Tru64 unix or Linux, the requirements are
far more relaxed. All dec os's recognise dec branded drives, but
for generic drives on Tru64, for example, they will work fine,
but need a bit more user input in terms of manually generated
partition tables. Dec branded drives allowed assumptions to be
made about default partition table sizes based of the drive type,
which isn't possible for generic types.
From a hardware pov, you can connect just about any scsi drive
to any interface and you can get cable and moulded adapters to
convert from, say 68 pin to 50, 80 pin to 68, 50 etc. The
controllers and drives are quite smart and will adjust automagically
to the standard of the lowest capability in the scai chain. Don't
forget the bus terminator, though if the cable is only a few inches
long, you may get away with that.
Older low capacity (<36Gbyte) drives are all getting a bit long in
the tooth now and none too reliable, 72 or 146Gbyte 3.5" 64 pin (or
80 pin with data / power adapter) are a good place to start as they
are cheap and more likely to match the machine internal ribbon
cabling or disk backplane. The whole world has gone 2.5" sas now
and 3.5" scsi drives can be a real bargain if you shop around.
Hint: Fleabay is the best place to look.
One thing to note is that there was originally a short lived 5 volt
differential interface scsi standard (hvd) which is not compatible
with the later low voltage differential (lvd) standard. Same
connectors and appearance, but mixing the two can damage the
controller and / or drives, so it's worth checking which bus your
machine uses.
Regards,
Chris
> Hello. I'm going to be buying an AlphaStation XP1000 soon but it
> doesn't come with a hard drive. After going through HP's
> documentation and cross-referencing the original part numbers, there
> are really no affordable disks listed on the internet after doing
> some searching.
>
> According to HP, there were two standards of 80-pin disks supplied
> with 5 options.
>
> They claim it can use either an Ultra 2 LVD Wide SCSI or an Ultra 3
> LVD Wide SCSI disk, either 7200rpm or 10000rpm with a height of 1"
> and standard depth of 3.5" in all configurations. See
> http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/c04282135.pdf?ver=13 page 6
> for this information.
>
> The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card
> which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I
> determined it was using 80 pins as opposed to 68.
>
Hi,
> The unit claims to come with a DEC QLOGIC KZPBA-CX A01 PCI SCSI card
> which by looking on eBay and counting the pins on the photo is how I
> determined it was using 80 pins as opposed to 68.
>
It really depends to start with what os you want to run on it. Vms
used to be quite fussy about what drives it would work with, but
if you plan to install Tru64 unix or Linux, the requirements are
far more relaxed. All dec os's recognise dec branded drives, but
for generic drives on Tru64, for example, they will work fine,
but need a bit more user input in terms of manually generated
partition tables. Dec branded drives allowed assumptions to be
made about default partition table sizes based of the drive type,
which isn't possible for generic types.
From a hardware pov, you can connect just about any scsi drive
to any interface and you can get cable and moulded adapters to
convert from, say 68 pin to 50, 80 pin to 68, 50 etc. The
controllers and drives are quite smart and will adjust automagically
to the standard of the lowest capability in the scai chain. Don't
forget the bus terminator, though if the cable is only a few inches
long, you may get away with that.
Older low capacity (<36Gbyte) drives are all getting a bit long in
the tooth now and none too reliable, 72 or 146Gbyte 3.5" 64 pin (or
80 pin with data / power adapter) are a good place to start as they
are cheap and more likely to match the machine internal ribbon
cabling or disk backplane. The whole world has gone 2.5" sas now
and 3.5" scsi drives can be a real bargain if you shop around.
Hint: Fleabay is the best place to look.
One thing to note is that there was originally a short lived 5 volt
differential interface scsi standard (hvd) which is not compatible
with the later low voltage differential (lvd) standard. Same
connectors and appearance, but mixing the two can damage the
controller and / or drives, so it's worth checking which bus your
machine uses.
Regards,
Chris
John E. Malmberg
Nov 23, 2015, 9:47:30 PM11/23/15
to
Now what I need to find is a cheap drive tray adapter to replace the
dummy plug in the third drive bay.
I now have two extra cable trays with the Purple release latch from
similar previous purchases that I will never use.
Regards,
-John
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 24, 2015, 12:15:22 AM11/24/15
to
My question after looking through all of the details still begs the question, will the selection I chose work? I definitely appreciate the insight you all have being from a different background. My intention is to have the OS stored locally, and connect it later on with my own networked solutions. The machine has been shipped and I know I will definitely respond to this thread again when I receive it.
johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk
Nov 24, 2015, 4:44:27 AM11/24/15
to
anything clever. For example, not doing multi-host SCSI clustering.
As per my earlier post, generic drives aren't guaranteed to do the
right thing for a SCSI bus reset, and this may well result in data
loss in a multi-host SCSI setup. Lots of people won't care. A few
people might. The ones that care *might* want to check which drives
are/were actually qualified and supported.
This is not a theoretical issue; I've seen people call DEC and say
"my Tru64 cluster reproducibly loses data when there's a cluster state
change". On finding that unsupported drives are in use, the customer
is then asked to reproduce the problem with supported drives. They
call back and say "with supported drives it doesn't misbehave". Doh.
John E. Malmberg
Nov 24, 2015, 9:07:23 AM11/24/15
to
* XP1000
* KZPBA
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd3/storage/kzpbaugb.pdf
-- You can use only internal or external SCSI connectors at any one
time. The KZPBA-CA does not support simultaneous use of both internal
and external connectors.
* SCA LVD-SE Adapter
* External Ultra2 SCSI-3 cable, Not compatible with StorageWorks enclosures.
* SCA 300 GB drive.
You may also be missing power supply splitters/ extenders, mounting
hardware, etc.
As of this configuration, you are missing the internal cable and
terminator needed for mounting the drive internally. SCA drives per the
URL below do not generally have an option for self terminating.
That URL documents problems seen with some SCA to 68 pin adapters not
being properly wired.
http://www.scio.k12.or.us/shs/staffweb/mettsg/comptec/SCSI/Scsi_termination_tutorial.htm
Older StorageWorks are 16 bit SCSI, and the 7 bay ones can be split into
two independent buses. The 7th bay can support a redundant power
supply. I have seen people use other slots for the redundant power
supply. That just wastes electricity, since the internal power
connectors are only in the last two bays.
Newer ones have a personality module for what SCSI connection you want.
Generally the personality module requires a specific cable in order to
fit the tight physical location where it is attached to the adapter.
Again, you may find it faster to set up an emulator, and learn to use it
as a LAVC boot node to boot your system disk-less.
Regards,
-John
wb8...@qsl.network
Hans Vlems
Nov 24, 2015, 9:44:28 AM11/24/15
to
Whether a disk is supported or not in an XP1000 chassis is decided by heat output and connectivity.
Rule of thumb: the faster the drive rotates, the hotter it runs. So 15k rpm drives run hotter than 10k rpm drives etc.
The XP1000 is a small box and airflow is provided for the CPU, memory and the pci cards. The disk bays are not particularly well cooled. Thus, hot drives will heat themselves and eventually other components and things will break.
Heat is an enemy if you want long life out of your investment.
Every disk lists the current drawn at 12 and Volts. Multiply them gives Watts, that is the heat output of the drive. Check the supported drives, add those Watts to get an estimate of what the system can handle. Check the power output of the biggest drives you need or can afford and calculate how many you can put in.
This is why people prefer external drive cages, no heat problems inside the system and you can put anything in that physically fits. Just the disk(s) getting fried...
Disk hardware: the system allows for SCSI and even one IDE drive. The box is wired for 68 pin SCSI drives. They come as HVD, stay away from those, and LVD/SE and these will work with the onboard SCSI controller.
80 pin disks (aka SCA) may be fitted by means of a converter. These may be had for less than $5.
I don't think that basic VMS will have issues with any recent SCSI disk, recent being defined as anything built since 2000. If you start building host based shadow sets then, who knows, but you're not setting up a 24x7 shop, right?
Remember the advice of others: it's old gear, usually from 24x7 operations that dumped it because they wouldn't run it any more.
The onboard scsi controller may be somewhat slow for you. Replace it with a supported controller fir the os of your choice.
Good luck!
Rule of thumb: the faster the drive rotates, the hotter it runs. So 15k rpm drives run hotter than 10k rpm drives etc.
The XP1000 is a small box and airflow is provided for the CPU, memory and the pci cards. The disk bays are not particularly well cooled. Thus, hot drives will heat themselves and eventually other components and things will break.
Heat is an enemy if you want long life out of your investment.
Every disk lists the current drawn at 12 and Volts. Multiply them gives Watts, that is the heat output of the drive. Check the supported drives, add those Watts to get an estimate of what the system can handle. Check the power output of the biggest drives you need or can afford and calculate how many you can put in.
This is why people prefer external drive cages, no heat problems inside the system and you can put anything in that physically fits. Just the disk(s) getting fried...
Disk hardware: the system allows for SCSI and even one IDE drive. The box is wired for 68 pin SCSI drives. They come as HVD, stay away from those, and LVD/SE and these will work with the onboard SCSI controller.
80 pin disks (aka SCA) may be fitted by means of a converter. These may be had for less than $5.
I don't think that basic VMS will have issues with any recent SCSI disk, recent being defined as anything built since 2000. If you start building host based shadow sets then, who knows, but you're not setting up a 24x7 shop, right?
Remember the advice of others: it's old gear, usually from 24x7 operations that dumped it because they wouldn't run it any more.
The onboard scsi controller may be somewhat slow for you. Replace it with a supported controller fir the os of your choice.
Good luck!
Steven Schweda
Nov 24, 2015, 10:04:54 AM11/24/15
to
> [...] will the selection I chose work? [...]
Does "the selection I chose" include that "a Sun storage
box for about $65 on eBay"? My psychic powers are too weak
for me to offer a guarantee on a set-up with such a
detail-free description. Another residual mystery:
> [...] something to keep the static away from the disks [...]
There's space in an XP1000 for at least two disks, so, as
I said, I'd lean toward internal disks, which I'd expect to
be faster, at least with a KZPCA, and probably with a KZPBA,
too. The cable/terminator for that arrangement would differ
from your "the selection I chose". And, because an XP1000
already has the equivalent of a KZPBA-CA/CX on-board, there's
no need to buy a KZPBA if all the SCSI devices are internal.
I'd expect a fancy UltraXXX cable/terminator to work with
a non-Ultra KZPBA-CA/CX, but be needed for top speed with a
KZPCA.
A SCSI CD-ROM (or DVD-ROM, if you can find a bargain) can
be helpful, too. An IDE/ATAPI optical drive on these systems
may be annoyingly slow.
> [...] The KZPBA-CA does not support simultaneous use of
tape drive for backup, _then_ you could use a KZPBA-CA/CX
card.
Does "the selection I chose" include that "a Sun storage
box for about $65 on eBay"? My psychic powers are too weak
for me to offer a guarantee on a set-up with such a
detail-free description. Another residual mystery:
> [...] something to keep the static away from the disks [...]
There's space in an XP1000 for at least two disks, so, as
I said, I'd lean toward internal disks, which I'd expect to
be faster, at least with a KZPCA, and probably with a KZPBA,
too. The cable/terminator for that arrangement would differ
from your "the selection I chose". And, because an XP1000
already has the equivalent of a KZPBA-CA/CX on-board, there's
no need to buy a KZPBA if all the SCSI devices are internal.
I'd expect a fancy UltraXXX cable/terminator to work with
a non-Ultra KZPBA-CA/CX, but be needed for top speed with a
KZPCA.
A SCSI CD-ROM (or DVD-ROM, if you can find a bargain) can
be helpful, too. An IDE/ATAPI optical drive on these systems
may be annoyingly slow.
> [...] The KZPBA-CA does not support simultaneous use of
> both internal and external connectors.
Yup. So, if you wanted to add an external (big) SCSI DLT
tape drive for backup, _then_ you could use a KZPBA-CA/CX
card.
Steven Schweda
Nov 24, 2015, 10:29:35 AM11/24/15
to
> Rule of thumb: the faster the drive rotates, the hotter it
> runs.
Another such rule: Newer drives use less power than older.
> runs.
As suggested, actually calculating power can be more
reliable than any rule of thumb. The hottest drive I ever
saw was a Seagate ST15150, one of the early 7200r/m
("Barracuda") drives. I'm too lazy to check, but I'd be
amazed if any modern 15k drive ran as hot as that old (4GB)
drive.
> The onboard scsi controller may be somewhat slow for you.
I would not expect a KZPBA to be faster than the on-board
interface. Especially when "show device /full" says this:
> On-board:
> Device PKA0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
>
> KZPBA-CA/CX:
> Device PKB0:, device type Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI port, [...]
(Note that the actual chip is a 1040, not a 1020.)
Stephen Hoffman
Nov 24, 2015, 12:38:47 PM11/24/15
to
works? Or if it smokes?
If you can't afford to spend some money with no certainty that the
resulting configuration will work — if you can't burn some money — on
SCSI disks or other storage parts that might not work, or can't afford
to make mistakes and/or fry hardware or even smoking the whole server,
then buying an ancient AlphaStation XP1000 probably isn't the best
choice for your budget, and particularly if you're then planning to
load the Alpha with vendor-unsupported gear.
As for your goal to connect OpenVMS with your own networked solutions?
That could imply some unfamiliar with OpenVMS system management.
Here's why: The only file system clients for OpenVMS are for
clustering via SCS/MSCP/MOP protocols, DEC InfoServer via MOP/LAD,
DEC's LAD/LAST storage devices, and NFS, and the NFS client is limited
and not particularly integrated with OpenVMS locking. The iSCSI
initiator for OpenVMS was a prototype, and never received an update or
formal support. OpenVMS has no SMB/CIFS clients, no FUSE options, no
sshfs, no AFS, etc. In general, HPE went for SAN storage with
OpenVMS, and not NAS. In many ways, OpenVMS is most definitely not at
all like Unix or Linux.
But again, expect to burn through some money here with your
experimentation — even if you buy only vendor-supported hardware.
Otherwise, try one of the available (free) emulation packages, and then
figure out if you want to invest in hardware.
An old write-up or two, but things haven't changed much:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1211
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/12
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 24, 2015, 3:06:39 PM11/24/15
to
All very helpful and I'm not afraid to experiment or spend money. I've wanted my own Alpha system since 2003. I'll keep you posted as things progress. Thanks for the information about data sharing as well!
David Froble
Nov 24, 2015, 3:54:16 PM11/24/15
to
Steven Schweda wrote:
>> Rule of thumb: the faster the drive rotates, the hotter it
>> runs.
>
> Another such rule: Newer drives use less power than older.
>
> As suggested, actually calculating power can be more
> reliable than any rule of thumb. The hottest drive I ever
> saw was a Seagate ST15150, one of the early 7200r/m
> ("Barracuda") drives. I'm too lazy to check, but I'd be
> amazed if any modern 15k drive ran as hot as that old (4GB)
> drive.
Huh?
>> Rule of thumb: the faster the drive rotates, the hotter it
>> runs.
>
> Another such rule: Newer drives use less power than older.
>
> As suggested, actually calculating power can be more
> reliable than any rule of thumb. The hottest drive I ever
> saw was a Seagate ST15150, one of the early 7200r/m
> ("Barracuda") drives. I'm too lazy to check, but I'd be
> amazed if any modern 15k drive ran as hot as that old (4GB)
> drive.
That was a disk drive?
And I was thinking it was some type of hot plate for cooking ...
Hans Vlems
Nov 24, 2015, 4:54:08 PM11/24/15
to
Very nice for fried eggs!
Steven Schweda
Nov 24, 2015, 5:38:16 PM11/24/15
to
> Very nice for fried eggs!
All I ever saw cooked by one was itself, but the potential
was there. My then-employer got a few when they were new.
When the first one failed after a few months, we noticed that
it was unexpectedly toasty. After that, we added an extra
fan in each enclosure, blowing directly on the drive. After
that was done, I think all the drives survived long enough
(years) to be replaced by larger (and cooler) models.
As for the XP1000 itself, I added a small 12V fan at the
top rear (blowing out), and a smaller one in the center front
drive bay (blowing in). Both are powered by 5V stolen from
some four-pin connector or other, so they're quiet. Probably
not very effective, too, but the hard disk in the lower front
bay may enjoy the gentle breeze. I feel better, and that's
what really matters.
Hans Vlems
Nov 24, 2015, 5:51:03 PM11/24/15
to
An XP1000 can have a fullsized cd-rom drive and four additional 3.5" disks inside. The wiring for IDE and SCSI (and the floppy too) make it a crowded place with little room for cool air. My XP1000 is not turned on for longer periods of time which has surely helped the disks inside. I certainly understand why you put in the fans.
Basically heat output is the only criterium for a disk to be supported in a given environment.
I run a 147 GB disk in a blue canister inside an AlphaServer 1200. Not supported when the 1200 was modern, the IBM disk is more recent and still works (have it for 8 years now).
Basically heat output is the only criterium for a disk to be supported in a given environment.
I run a 147 GB disk in a blue canister inside an AlphaServer 1200. Not supported when the 1200 was modern, the IBM disk is more recent and still works (have it for 8 years now).
spa...@gmail.com
Nov 24, 2015, 9:07:25 PM11/24/15
to
So what I now understand about using modern U320 80-pin LVD SCSI disks with the AlphaStation is the following, based on what I have learned as a summary:
SCSI chains devices and a termination must be done on two ends.
Termination must be done after the last used device, and on the other end of the chain as connects into the host interface. (I figured out the whole SCSI chaining thing)
Termination can be active or passive. Passive adapters are used to cap the end of the chain where you need it to terminate due to BIOS/SRM considerations.
You must use a 80-pin F 68-pin F adapter for SCA-based U320 disks with 80-pins, which includes a 4-pin power interface.
The distance is limited by the standard, and ideally you want to use LVD. In the case with DEC tech, it must be LVD or something will go up in smoke.
It is ideal that I use a higher capacity disk due to lineage, wear, false claims of restoration by those selling refurbished units.
15K's are not ideal due to heat generation, though certainly better than the original 10k's.
U320 is backwards compatible with U160 and in either case the cards (Internal or External) available on the XP1000 operate at U160 spec. (~40mb/s)
The AlphaStation XP1000 supports 4 x (3.5" x 1") internal SCSI Disks (2x 3.5", 2x in 5 1/4" bay), though cable management will be difficult due to space constraints and heat dissipation.
SRM firmware should ideally be as current as possible due to expectations formerly made about disk features used in key VMS systems/software.
What I'm trying to figure out now, and is probably the last real question I have before ordering the components needed to make this work revolve around the type of SCSI cabling / ribbons to be used.
I've found great deals on 72gb and 146gb HP labeled U320 SCSI's with LVD/SE ($19 for 72GB 10K on eBay), but a lot of the ribbons I find (Some with brackets, some not) are rated for 68-pin.
This begs the question since the modern and more plentiful disks available are 80-pin, I have mostly if not always found only 68-pin cables/ribbons, so would you need a 68->80 adapter for each node of the SCSI chain?
I know this sounds pretty much ill-informed, as it was suggested most configurations would work so long as the power concerns were addresed. (LVD/SE)
I saw Steven's post about his own (internal) stuff and he uses 68-pin ribbons with both of the links he posted, yet he also says that he uses 80-pin (More modern) SCSI disks with a similar setup.
I just want to confirm that detail so I don't get the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. If a disk burns out, that doesn't really matter, such long as it doesn't damage the actual unit. I will be getting a KZPBA-CX when I do this in the next day or two, based on your input, which I again greatly appreciate.
SCSI chains devices and a termination must be done on two ends.
Termination must be done after the last used device, and on the other end of the chain as connects into the host interface. (I figured out the whole SCSI chaining thing)
Termination can be active or passive. Passive adapters are used to cap the end of the chain where you need it to terminate due to BIOS/SRM considerations.
You must use a 80-pin F 68-pin F adapter for SCA-based U320 disks with 80-pins, which includes a 4-pin power interface.
The distance is limited by the standard, and ideally you want to use LVD. In the case with DEC tech, it must be LVD or something will go up in smoke.
It is ideal that I use a higher capacity disk due to lineage, wear, false claims of restoration by those selling refurbished units.
15K's are not ideal due to heat generation, though certainly better than the original 10k's.
U320 is backwards compatible with U160 and in either case the cards (Internal or External) available on the XP1000 operate at U160 spec. (~40mb/s)
The AlphaStation XP1000 supports 4 x (3.5" x 1") internal SCSI Disks (2x 3.5", 2x in 5 1/4" bay), though cable management will be difficult due to space constraints and heat dissipation.
SRM firmware should ideally be as current as possible due to expectations formerly made about disk features used in key VMS systems/software.
What I'm trying to figure out now, and is probably the last real question I have before ordering the components needed to make this work revolve around the type of SCSI cabling / ribbons to be used.
I've found great deals on 72gb and 146gb HP labeled U320 SCSI's with LVD/SE ($19 for 72GB 10K on eBay), but a lot of the ribbons I find (Some with brackets, some not) are rated for 68-pin.
This begs the question since the modern and more plentiful disks available are 80-pin, I have mostly if not always found only 68-pin cables/ribbons, so would you need a 68->80 adapter for each node of the SCSI chain?
I know this sounds pretty much ill-informed, as it was suggested most configurations would work so long as the power concerns were addresed. (LVD/SE)
I saw Steven's post about his own (internal) stuff and he uses 68-pin ribbons with both of the links he posted, yet he also says that he uses 80-pin (More modern) SCSI disks with a similar setup.
I just want to confirm that detail so I don't get the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. If a disk burns out, that doesn't really matter, such long as it doesn't damage the actual unit. I will be getting a KZPBA-CX when I do this in the next day or two, based on your input, which I again greatly appreciate.
Steven Schweda
Nov 24, 2015, 11:09:39 PM11/24/15
to
> SCSI chains devices and a termination must be done on two
> ends. [...]
True, but a typical SCSI adapter card will handle its end
without your doing anything. For a less typical example
card, the KZPBA-CB/CY is the (HV) differential version of the
QLogic card, and it has a bank of socketed SIP resistor packs
for termination (near the external 68-pin connector). If
those are removed, then you can put that card into the middle
of the (HVD) SCSI bus. (Many very old SE disk drives also
had places for termination resistor packs, to be installed in
the last drive at the end of the cable.) Nowadays, a cable
might come with a terminator at one end, or a box (like the
Sun 611) might include an automatic terminator, or you might
need to use an explicit terminator.
With the single-ended KZPBA-CA/CX card, the termination at
the card is either automatic or permanent, so you don't
need/want any other terminator at that end of the cable.
> Termination can be active or passive.
> Passive adapters are used to cap the end of the chain
> where you need it to terminate due to BIOS/SRM
> considerations.
electrical signal integrity (to stop reflections). Active
terminators do a better job at higher speeds. For a KZPBA,
you probably don't care. Any UltraXXX terminator is probably
active. Older stuff might be passive.
> In the case with DEC tech, it must be LVD or something will
> go up in smoke.
(high-voltage) differential stuff (like a KZPBA-CB/CY card or
Seagate drives with model numbers ending in "D" (typically
"WD")). Modern stuff is typically SE/LVD, so it'll
automatically use (faster) LVD signaling unless it sees the
higher voltages associated with an old SE device on the bus
somewhere. With a KZPBA-CA/CX card, everything will be in SE
mode, not LVD (Ultra).
> 15K's are not ideal due to heat generation, though
> certainly better than the original 10k's.
generalization.
> U320 is backwards compatible with U160 and in either case the
> cards (Internal or External) available on the XP1000 operate
> at U160 spec. (~40mb/s)
everything. The slowest device on the bus limits the speed
for everyone. (Which is another reason to keep an old SE
tape drive away from a bus full of faster LVD disks.)
I know nothing, but I'd guess that "Ultra160" is _not_
called "Ultra160" because its speed is 40M<anythings>/s.
I typically see lower bus speeds when I connect an
external Sun 611 box to an existing internal bus. I know not
whether that's caused by the additional cable length or the
box's automatic terminator, or what.
> The AlphaStation XP1000 supports 4 x (3.5" x 1") internal
The "XP1000 System Reference and Maintenance Guide" (cited
earlier) has the actual facts (which differ from this
description):
file:///XP1000%20Service%20Guide/service/co_bays.htm
It also says:
Note: Some large hard disk drives generate enough heat
during normal operation to require a twin fan module to be
installed in conjunction with them. Use the top
front-accessible drive bay for such drives and their twin fan
modules.
I've never seen this "twin fan module".
> This begs the question since the modern and more plentiful
> disks available are 80-pin, I have mostly if not always found
> only 68-pin cables/ribbons, so would you need a 68->80
> adapter for each node of the SCSI chain?
> > I found they are 80-pin and I only have the older built-in
> > 68-pin to start with. So what does that mean?
>
> one.
> I saw Steven's post about his own (internal) stuff and he
> uses 68-pin ribbons with both of the links he posted, yet he
> also says that he uses 80-pin (More modern) SCSI disks with a
> similar setup.
here earlier, $5 or less should get you a nice one.
Chris
Nov 25, 2015, 9:20:26 AM11/25/15
to
On 11/24/15 09:44, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> Generic drives on Tru64 likely work fine as long as you're not doing
> anything clever. For example, not doing multi-host SCSI clustering.
> As per my earlier post, generic drives aren't guaranteed to do the
> right thing for a SCSI bus reset, and this may well result in data
> loss in a multi-host SCSI setup. Lots of people won't care. A few
> people might. The ones that care *might* want to check which drives
> are/were actually qualified and supported.
>
> This is not a theoretical issue; I've seen people call DEC and say
> "my Tru64 cluster reproducibly loses data when there's a cluster state
> change". On finding that unsupported drives are in use, the customer
> is then asked to reproduce the problem with supported drives. They
> call back and say "with supported drives it doesn't misbehave". Doh.
John,
>
> Generic drives on Tru64 likely work fine as long as you're not doing
> anything clever. For example, not doing multi-host SCSI clustering.
> As per my earlier post, generic drives aren't guaranteed to do the
> right thing for a SCSI bus reset, and this may well result in data
> loss in a multi-host SCSI setup. Lots of people won't care. A few
> people might. The ones that care *might* want to check which drives
> are/were actually qualified and supported.
>
> This is not a theoretical issue; I've seen people call DEC and say
> "my Tru64 cluster reproducibly loses data when there's a cluster state
> change". On finding that unsupported drives are in use, the customer
> is then asked to reproduce the problem with supported drives. They
> call back and say "with supported drives it doesn't misbehave". Doh.
All taken on board and if you are doing this for professional work,
under such conditions, then you check all those things. Afaics, this
gentleman is probably more interested is just getting the box running at
this stage, with the finer detail sorted out later. Lets just get the
job done and not make it more complicated than it needs to be :-).
I've used a variety of scsi drives over the years on dec, sun and pc's
and as I said earlier, you may have to manually edit things like
partition tables if you use a drive not recognised by the installer, but
Linux in particular will install on just about anything these days. Vms
though may still be in a class of it's own in terms of what drives you
can use, though its years since I last did an install. In the old days,
it was a real pain, either a dec drive or compatable controller / drives
or nothing...
Regards,
Chris
glen herrmannsfeldt
Nov 25, 2015, 9:56:05 AM11/25/15
to
Chris <xxx.sys...@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
(snip)
> All taken on board and if you are doing this for professional work,
> under such conditions, then you check all those things. Afaics, this
> gentleman is probably more interested is just getting the box running at
> this stage, with the finer detail sorted out later. Lets just get the
> job done and not make it more complicated than it needs to be :-).
> I've used a variety of scsi drives over the years on dec, sun and pc's
> and as I said earlier, you may have to manually edit things like
> partition tables if you use a drive not recognised by the installer, but
> Linux in particular will install on just about anything these days. Vms
> though may still be in a class of it's own in terms of what drives you
> can use, though its years since I last did an install. In the old days,
> it was a real pain, either a dec drive or compatable controller / drives
> or nothing...
Yes, and also old hardware (or software) might not to know what
to do with really big drives. (Where really big might not be all
that big.)
-- glen
(snip)
> All taken on board and if you are doing this for professional work,
> under such conditions, then you check all those things. Afaics, this
> gentleman is probably more interested is just getting the box running at
> this stage, with the finer detail sorted out later. Lets just get the
> job done and not make it more complicated than it needs to be :-).
> I've used a variety of scsi drives over the years on dec, sun and pc's
> and as I said earlier, you may have to manually edit things like
> partition tables if you use a drive not recognised by the installer, but
> Linux in particular will install on just about anything these days. Vms
> though may still be in a class of it's own in terms of what drives you
> can use, though its years since I last did an install. In the old days,
> it was a real pain, either a dec drive or compatable controller / drives
> or nothing...
to do with really big drives. (Where really big might not be all
that big.)
-- glen
Kerry Main
Nov 25, 2015, 3:20:06 PM11/25/15
to comp.os.vms to email gateway
lab rx2600 has a 3rd party LSI Sata RAID controller installed with 2 x2TB
COTS Sata disk drives (total space = 2TB) in a controller based mirror
config. Works fine on both latest versions of V8.4 and V8.4-1H1.
Only minor issue is a "$ show dev d" shows the drive size as ***** vs.
the actual size of 3,905,942,976 blocks.
Regards,
Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com
johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk
Nov 25, 2015, 4:29:51 PM11/25/15
to
I formed the impression from something I can no longer see (!) that
Tru64 might be of interest as well as VMS. One of the things that
might make Tru64 interesting is the stuff that makes it different
from other UNIXes - one such feature at one time being SCSI
clustering. Hence the up front warning.
But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
connectors, terminators... Marvellous stuff, SCSI (so long as
you're lucky enough to have access to someone who understands
it well).
What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
Norm Raphael
Nov 25, 2015, 5:00:06 PM11/25/15
to info...@info-vax.com
> > or nothing...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Chris
>
> Thanks, and fully understood.
>
> I formed the impression from something I can no longer see (!) that
> Tru64 might be of interest as well as VMS. One of the things that
> might make Tru64 interesting is the stuff that makes it different
> from other UNIXes - one such feature at one time being SCSI
> clustering. Hence the up front warning.
>
> But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
> subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
> connectors, terminators... Marvelous stuff, SCSI (so long as
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Chris
>
> Thanks, and fully understood.
>
> I formed the impression from something I can no longer see (!) that
> Tru64 might be of interest as well as VMS. One of the things that
> might make Tru64 interesting is the stuff that makes it different
> from other UNIXes - one such feature at one time being SCSI
> clustering. Hence the up front warning.
>
> But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
> subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
> you're lucky enough to have access to someone who understands
> it well).
>
> What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
>
As I heard it, neither S in SCSI is for Standard.
> it well).
>
> What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
>
Norman F. Raphael
"Everything worthwhile eventually
degenerates into real work." -Murphy
Paul Sture
Nov 25, 2015, 5:25:43 PM11/25/15
to
On 2015-11-25, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk <johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>
> But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
> subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
> connectors, terminators... Marvellous stuff, SCSI (so long as
> you're lucky enough to have access to someone who understands
> it well).
>
> What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
Also, neither S is short for Standard.
--
Xscreensaver patch out:
CVE-2015-8025: xscreensaver could be bypassed by disconnecting HDMI cable
<https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2015-8025>
<snip>
>
> But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
> subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
> connectors, terminators... Marvellous stuff, SCSI (so long as
> you're lucky enough to have access to someone who understands
> it well).
>
> What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
--
Xscreensaver patch out:
CVE-2015-8025: xscreensaver could be bypassed by disconnecting HDMI cable
<https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2015-8025>
Chris
Nov 25, 2015, 5:57:20 PM11/25/15
to
On 11/25/15 21:29, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> Thanks, and fully understood.
>
> I formed the impression from something I can no longer see (!) that
> Tru64 might be of interest as well as VMS. One of the things that
> might make Tru64 interesting is the stuff that makes it different
> from other UNIXes - one such feature at one time being SCSI
> clustering. Hence the up front warning.
>
Tru64 was an excellent Unix and ran here for 10+ years on a 500/400
>
> Thanks, and fully understood.
>
> I formed the impression from something I can no longer see (!) that
> Tru64 might be of interest as well as VMS. One of the things that
> might make Tru64 interesting is the stuff that makes it different
> from other UNIXes - one such feature at one time being SCSI
> clustering. Hence the up front warning.
>
machine doing embedded work. A few rough edges which could have
been fixed with more development but it just worked and had uptimes
of years. The disks on mine were 2Gb Barracuda, 50 pin, one of
which failed after 8 or so years. I stripped the machine down and
cleaned everything before putting it into store, where it still is.
Maybe it will get resurrected some day, but can't bear to part with
it just yet. I still have Tru64 distro kits somewhere, up to about
4.00Dd iirc. Not sure about licensing, is it orphanised or what ?,
but doubt if anyone would care if someone just wanted to set it up
to play with at amateur level.
Your right about the file system, which was called Advfs iirc,
though my machine never had more than a couple of drives on UFS,
not even raid. I think a separate license was needed to make full
use of the Advfs capabilities. Fwir, the utilities were a bit arcane
and clunky, but it was very new at the time. Last I heard, the spec
and code was made open source, though probably too obscure and too
late to have any impact now. The world has moved on and ZFS would be
my preferred file system these days for everything. It's just so
capable.
>
> But we're all agreed that routine stuff *should* "just work",
> subject to the industry standard SCSI caveats around cables,
> connectors, terminators... Marvellous stuff, SCSI (so long as
> you're lucky enough to have access to someone who understands
> it well).
>
> What was the saying, the S in SCSI isn't for Specification?
some configs that had a mixture of 50, 68 and 80 pin drives on
the same wire, various vendors, but it all seemed to work :-).
Regards,
Chris
Steven Schweda
Nov 25, 2015, 9:23:11 PM11/25/15
to
> Not sure about licensing, is it orphanised or what ?, [...]
I know nothing, but the last time I looked (some years
back), they were no longer offering the ($99) Non-Commercial
license. According to the Map:
http://h41361.www4.hp.com/docs/patch/roadmap.html
I must be one patch kit behind. Around here:
urtx# sizer -v
HP Tru64 UNIX V5.1B (Rev. 2650); Fri Mar 20 20:19:48 CDT 2009
urtx# /usr/sbin/dupatch -track -type patch_level | grep -i
'patch kit'
Gathering details of relevant patch kits...
Patch Kit 5: T64V51BB26AS0005-20050502 OSF540
Patch Kit 6: T64V51BB27AS0006-20061208 OSF540
Patch Kit 7: T64V51BB28AS0007-20090312 OSF540
On the bright side, the Non-Commercial Tru64 PAKs don't
expire (even if the OS itself does).
I know nothing, but the last time I looked (some years
back), they were no longer offering the ($99) Non-Commercial
license. According to the Map:
http://h41361.www4.hp.com/docs/patch/roadmap.html
I must be one patch kit behind. Around here:
urtx# sizer -v
HP Tru64 UNIX V5.1B (Rev. 2650); Fri Mar 20 20:19:48 CDT 2009
urtx# /usr/sbin/dupatch -track -type patch_level | grep -i
'patch kit'
Gathering details of relevant patch kits...
Patch Kit 5: T64V51BB26AS0005-20050502 OSF540
Patch Kit 6: T64V51BB27AS0006-20061208 OSF540
Patch Kit 7: T64V51BB28AS0007-20090312 OSF540
On the bright side, the Non-Commercial Tru64 PAKs don't
expire (even if the OS itself does).
David Froble
Nov 25, 2015, 10:56:54 PM11/25/15
to
There is no such beast as an 80 wire SCSI cable. Doesn't exist. (Ok, now
someone will point at one.)
Why is this? Because the wide SCSI is 68 pins. The additional pins on the 80
pin drives are, as far as I know, for other than the SCSI bus.
> This begs the question since the modern and more plentiful disks available
> are 80-pin, I have mostly if not always found only 68-pin cables/ribbons, so
> would you need a 68->80 adapter for each node of the SCSI chain?
plugs, one for each disk, one for the controller, and perhaps one for a
terminator. Power is another thing. The adapters have a jack for 4 pin power.
You need an adapter, and power, for each 80 pin disk.
Steven Schweda
Nov 25, 2015, 11:56:52 PM11/25/15
to
> [...] You need an adapter, and power, for each 80 pin disk.
Yeah, yeah. I think he's got that now.
For a good time, consider a Google Groups search in
comp.os.vms for "KZPBA". I found many old posts with some
relevance to this discussion, including some from me with
details which I had forgotten. (As I have with so many
things nowadays. One of the problems with a 15-year-old
computer is remembering everything you've done to it over the
past ten years, and why.)
Yeah, yeah. I think he's got that now.
For a good time, consider a Google Groups search in
comp.os.vms for "KZPBA". I found many old posts with some
relevance to this discussion, including some from me with
details which I had forgotten. (As I have with so many
things nowadays. One of the problems with a 15-year-old
computer is remembering everything you've done to it over the
past ten years, and why.)
glen herrmannsfeldt
Nov 26, 2015, 3:26:30 AM11/26/15
to
David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> spa...@gmail.com wrote:
>> So what I now understand about using modern U320 80-pin LVD SCSI disks with
>> the AlphaStation is the following, based on what I have learned as a summary:
(snip)
> spa...@gmail.com wrote:
>> So what I now understand about using modern U320 80-pin LVD SCSI disks with
>> the AlphaStation is the following, based on what I have learned as a summary:
>> You must use a 80-pin F 68-pin F adapter for SCA-based U320 disks with
>> 80-pins, which includes a 4-pin power interface.
>> The distance is limited by the standard, and ideally you want to use LVD. In
>> the case with DEC tech, it must be LVD or something will go up in smoke. It
>> is ideal that I use a higher capacity disk due to lineage, wear, false claims
>> of restoration by those selling refurbished units.
>> I've found great deals on 72gb and 146gb HP labeled U320 SCSI's with LVD/SE
>> ($19 for 72GB 10K on eBay), but a lot of the ribbons I find (Some with
>> brackets, some not) are rated for 68-pin.
is to run NFS from a SAN (personal cloud) device instead.
One disk to boot off, NFS for actual data storage.
> Ok, I could be wrong, but I think not.
> There is no such beast as an 80 wire SCSI cable. Doesn't exist. (Ok, now
> someone will point at one.)
power distribution is done. A cable would probably need bigger wire
for the power lines, besides there being more of them.
> Why is this? Because the wide SCSI is 68 pins. The additional pins on the 80
> pin drives are, as far as I know, for other than the SCSI bus.
-- glen
Hans Vlems
Nov 26, 2015, 4:45:36 AM11/26/15
to
80 pin (or SCA) disks are pretty cheap now. I recently bought 90 (mostly 72 and 147 GB, 20k and 15k rpm) for 300 euros. Three were dead.
I put them in Alphas (various models), one rx2600 and in VAXstation 4000's, models 60 and 90A. Also in 3100-20e's, just as a data disk.
The VS4000 and V(S)3100's use 50 pin wiring of course but work well with 50->80 pin converters. These SCSI controllers have just three bit device id's and a narrow data path. Don't use that 4th bit and use a converter that properly handles (terminates?) the upper data lines. Without that the bus flags errors on these old systems. They were built in 1992-1994.
Most AlphaServers have onboard wide SCSI, no termination issues there. Some have a 50 pin scsi controller to drive the cdrom. Then the same applies as for the VAXstations.
The 80 pin SCA connector handles data (wide), power, device ID and housekeeping signals like drive spin up etc. So make sure to RTFM that comes with the converter. It might not work immediately straight out of the box.
Hans
I put them in Alphas (various models), one rx2600 and in VAXstation 4000's, models 60 and 90A. Also in 3100-20e's, just as a data disk.
The VS4000 and V(S)3100's use 50 pin wiring of course but work well with 50->80 pin converters. These SCSI controllers have just three bit device id's and a narrow data path. Don't use that 4th bit and use a converter that properly handles (terminates?) the upper data lines. Without that the bus flags errors on these old systems. They were built in 1992-1994.
Most AlphaServers have onboard wide SCSI, no termination issues there. Some have a 50 pin scsi controller to drive the cdrom. Then the same applies as for the VAXstations.
The 80 pin SCA connector handles data (wide), power, device ID and housekeeping signals like drive spin up etc. So make sure to RTFM that comes with the converter. It might not work immediately straight out of the box.
Hans
Chris
Nov 26, 2015, 11:08:04 AM11/26/15
to
somewhere inside HP. Like an empty starship lost in space
for millennia, and when found, all the systems working
perfectly.
As for the PAk, there's no mention of expiry on the docs
for the machine and i'm sure it would fire up with no
problem even.now. 10 years reliable service and retired
around 2009. You can only carry the torch for so long in the
face of indifference from the vendor. From the table, 4.0d,
looks pretty old now and wonder what new facilities and
improvements appeared in 5 and up ?...
I know nothing either, but still trying to correct that :-)...
Regards,
Chris
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