Multiple OpenVMS instances on HPVM?

[lars....@gmail.com]

Copany is looking to replace a bunch of Alpha systems with Integrity. As the hardware us rather pricy we're lokking so save costs. For development and test environments, would it be possible to run multiple OpenVMS guests on the same hardware simultaneously using HPVM? If so, what are the licensing implications of such setup? Asume it would it be cheaper than buying more hardware and running each instance on dedicated irons? Further how complicated is setup and management of such environment.

[Stephen Hoffman]

Contact the folks at VSI, and see if they'll sell you VSI OpenVMS I64
software licenses for used Integrity servers. Also ask about any
current license migration programs they might be offering.

HPE isn't actively maintaining and updating HPE OpenVMS I64 on HPE
HP-VM, AFAICT. The configurations with HPE OpenVMS support are
getting older, and the underlying and associated HPE OpenVMS and HPE
HP-VM releases haven't been updated in a while. I don't know if VSI
is even supporting the HPE HP-VM configurations, particularly given the
current release specs don't list that. That'd all be worth a direct
discussion directly with the VSI folks. But in general, HP-VM
wouldn't be my preferred approach here.

VSI: http://vmssoftware.com
Current OpenVMS release: V8.4-2L1:
http://vmssoftware.com/pdfs/VSI_OVMS_V842L1_QS.pdf



--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

[Kerry Main]

If you warranty level systems are too expensive, you can get
entry level rx2660 level systems for under USD $500 (price of a
low end PC) on places like eBay

Base Rx2660 - USD $200 (if you are HW inclined you can order
additional parts like drives, memory on eBay as well)
http://ebay.to/2dGzzMr

Don't forget that HPVM requires an understanding and mgmt. of the
virtual layer - HPUX.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

[lars....@gmail.com]

Hmmm, so if I understand correctly, this is not a recommended setup due to several factors such as maintenance effort, unclear future of HPVM with regards to OpenVMS.

Your suggested solution would be to acquire cheaper hardware for development and test and spend more on the production and staging environments.

If investing in migration from Alpha to Integrity I guess we might as well purchase new HW, not get warranty and support. Any recommendations for what to replace Alpha DS15's with?

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2016-10-01 17:39:15 +0000, lars....@gmail.com said:

> Hmmm, so if I understand correctly, this is not a recommended setup due
> to several factors such as maintenance effort, unclear future of HPVM
> with regards to OpenVMS.

HPE are delivering on their published roadmap to exit the OpenVMS
business and to migrate customers using OpenVMS to VSI or other
platforms, and to migrate HP-UX (and thus also HP-VM folks) to other
platforms, and the next round of Itanium HPE Integrity servers will
very likely be the last of the Itanium series. All new OpenVMS work
is from VSI.

Servers with either the i4-class Poulson processors or the upcoming
i6-class Kittson processors will only be supported by VSI OpenVMS
releases. Not by HPE OpenVMS.

> Your suggested solution would be to acquire cheaper hardware for
> development and test and spend more on the production and staging
> environments.

If you're reselling software that you're developing, then seek to join
either or both the HPE and/or VSI developer programs.

If it's local development and in-house and thus not usually eligible
for one of the developer programs, then get a couple of low-end used or
new servers, and license those.

> If investing in migration from Alpha to Integrity I guess we might as
> well purchase new HW, not get warranty and support.

There's certainly used equipment without warranty, and some
used-equipment vendors do offer warranties, or you can purchase new and
get an HPE warranty.

> Any recommendations for what to replace Alpha DS15's with?

If you're coming forward from Alpha, most any rx2660 or later server
will be faster than the AlphaServer DS15 series. This due to faster
processors, faster I/O, etc...

Integrity servers will usually be louder than the DS15-class boxes,
too. ~73 dB isn't particularly unusual for the rackmount Integrity
servers. If you're working near the server, there are
office-friendly configurations of some Integrity servers. Or
headphones.

You'll likely want to acquire VSI licenses and the VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1
current release, if you're purchasing new OpenVMS licenses now. I'd
not usually choose to purchase HPE OpenVMS licenses for this case, as
those allow use of only V8.4 and prior releases, and would require a
license repurchase (from VSI) to upgrade to OpenVMS releases after
V8.4. If you want or need HPE software support (and not VSI software
support), you can get support for the VSI versions with the purchase of
specific HPE Integrity servers; with the i4-class servers. That'll
get you HPE support with VSI as escalation support. The i4 and
upcoming i6 servers require OpenVMS releases after V8.4 — V8.4-2L1 is
current and supports i4 — and that's only available from VSI.

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax...@rbnsn.com] On Behalf
> Of lars.flagan--- via Info-vax
> Sent: 01-Oct-16 1:39 PM
> To: info...@rbnsn.com
> Cc: lars....@gmail.com

Given that HPE is aggressively pushing its HP-UX Customers to
Linux, starting anything new with HP-UX is likely not a good
decision.

http://ebay.to/2dlHqQc - basic rx2600 with HP-UX loaded, USD
$425. but disk can be wiped and replaced with OpenVMS.

You can also check with regular HW suppliers for more formal
quotes

Licenses discussion should be done directly with VSI.

If looking for something that costs a bit more initially, but is
likely more strategic if you have Windows/Linux in your
environment as well:

Invest in HPE C3000/C7000 blade enclosures infrastructure as they
can host both IA64 and X86-64 blades in the same enclosure.
Hence, you can run Windows/Linux on some blades, OpenVMS on the
IA64 blades - all in the same blade infrastructure. In a few
years, you could have OpenVMS, Windows and Linux all running on
the same X86-64 blade servers.

Ideally, all the legacy Windows/Linux servers would be converted
to OpenVMS V9+ on X86-64 blades.

:-)

Fwiw - like servers in general, blade servers have dropped quite
a bit in the last few years. Even on gray market.
http://ebay.to/2diDOzv - BL860 blade - USD $499 (others
available less than $1,000)

[David Froble]

You don't mention your location.

If in the US, or perhaps elsewhere, talk to David at Island Computers. He's got
plenty of used stuff, licenses, warranty, and such. Could be rather inexpensive.

Any itanic is going to give you a significant performance boost. We've got all
our customers on them.

VSI is the future of VMS, that's who you need to talk to about the future,
licenses, support, and such.

How many DS15s you planning to unload? Location?

[lars....@gmail.com]

Based in North Europe. Depending on how we decide to go forward we might have 20 DS15 machines to offload

A few driving factors for us is

-Aging HW
-Want to get rid of old EVA SAN which we pay crazy maintenance money for.
-Alpha is not compatible with new 3par SAN.
-Moving DR site to 3.party


So from your advice we've been looking at the following scenario:

Replace DEV & Test environments with BL860c i4 Blades as we already have spare slots in blade enclosure.

Replace stage and production with RX2800 i4 rack servers. Reasoning for going for rack servers in these environments are planed move of DR site to third party. We figure it is easier to rent rack space than blade slots.

Does this seem like a sound approach?

Not sure how licencing of minor version upgrades with OpenVMS works, but we also need to move to 8.4 to support new SAN

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax...@rbnsn.com] On Behalf
> Of lars.flagan--- via Info-vax
> Sent: 03-Oct-16 1:12 PM
> To: info...@rbnsn.com
> Cc: lars....@gmail.com

> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Multiple OpenVMS instances on HPVM?
>
> Based in North Europe. Depending on how we decide to go
> forward we might have 20 DS15 machines to offload
>
> A few driving factors for us is
>
> -Aging HW
> -Want to get rid of old EVA SAN which we pay crazy maintenance

> money for. OpenVMS 8.3 is not compatible with new 3par SAN.

> -Moving DR site to 3.party
>
>
> So from your advice we've been looking at the following
scenario:
>
> Replace DEV & Test environments with BL860c i4 Blades as we

> already have spare slots in blade chassis.

>
> Replace stage and production with RX2800 i4 rack servers.
> Reasoning for going for rack servers in these environments are
> planed move of DR site to third party. We figure it is easier
to rent
> rack space than blade slots.
>
> Does this seem like a sound approach?
>
> Not sure how licencing of minor version upgrades with OpenVMS

> works, but we also need to move to 8.4 to support new SAN.
>

Sounds like a very solid approach.

For max security compatibility, the target upgrade version should
likely be the latest: V8.4-2L1

In terms of OS/LP licensing, this is best discussed directly with
VSI.

References:
https://vmssoftware.com/products_roadmap.html
https://vmssoftware.com/products_res.html
https://vmssoftware.com/pdfs/hw_res/VSI-Blade-Servers-IO-V1608.pd
f

Contact:
VMS Software, Inc.
580 Main St. Bolton, MA 01740
Ph: (978) 451-0110 Fx: (866) 275-8569
Email: in...@vmssoftware.com

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2016-10-03 17:15:34 +0000, lars....@gmail.com said:

> ....

> Does this seem like a sound approach?

Ayup.... You're probably also either headed toward consolidation —
fewer Integrity servers — or maybe toward lower-end used new-to-you
Itanium boxes, if you really need twenty separate servers for some
particular local configuration requirement(s). Again, watch the noise
levels as many of the Integrity servers are quite loud. This if you
have folks working near those servers.

> Not sure how licencing of minor version upgrades with OpenVMS works,
> but we also need to move to 8.4 to support new SAN

To at least V8.4, and — given the details of what's happened with HPE
and VSI and OpenVMS, and given new or new-to-you hardware involved —
you'll want to acquire VSI licenses and not HPE licenses for OpenVMS.
HPE ends at V8.4 and little new is planned, and HPE is delivering on
their roadmap to exit the OpenVMS business. VSI presently has three
releases out after V8.4 with V8.4-2L1 being the most current, and work
on further new releases and on a port to x86-64. Why from VSI? If
you purchase HPE licenses for OpenVMS (as opposed to licenses directly
or indirectly from VSI), you'll have to re-purchase VSI licenses just
as soon as you want to upgrade past V8.4. Integrity i4 Poulson
requires a release after V8.4, as will the upcoming Integrity i6
Kittson series. Beyond some hardware enablement and such happening in
V8.4, the newer OpenVMS releases past V8.4 are where all updates and
new work is happening.

Contact the VSI sales folks directly. If they're not already contacting you.

[David Turner]

Well I can sell VSI licenses NEW for Used Servers

Call me !

David Turner
Island Computers 912 786 8501

[Forster, Michael]

If your DB or other application and/or DB vendors still only support HPE and Gen 2 IA64 vs VSI on Gen 4 IA64 then you don't have a choice. GE Healthcare and Intersystems. Or additionally fail to support Process Software MultiNet. Even though MultiNet is legacy and proven.


Michael Forster
Enterprise Storage and IDX Architect | Information Services
Medical College of Wisconsin
O: (414) 955-4967 | mfor...@mcw.edu


________________________________________
From: Info-vax <info-vax...@rbnsn.com> on behalf of Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax <info...@rbnsn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 7:05:41 AM
To: info...@rbnsn.com
Cc: Stephen Hoffman

Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Multiple OpenVMS instances on HPVM?

_______________________________________________
Info-vax mailing list
Info...@rbnsn.com
http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2016-10-05 22:50:49 +0000, Forster, Michael said:

> If your DB or other application and/or DB vendors still only support
> HPE and Gen 2 IA64 vs VSI on Gen 4 IA64 then you don't have a choice.
> GE Healthcare and Intersystems. Or additionally fail to support Process
> Software MultiNet. Even though MultiNet is legacy and proven.

The folks are effectively ending support for OpenVMS and as you're well
aware here, if they don't add VSI and Multinet^WVSI IP. Which means
their customers — you and everybody else — are headed for a migration.
Either the same tools and off of OpenVMS, or to different tools on
OpenVMS. Or maybe for emulation. If the prerequisites aren't
available to the OP for that environment, then that situation is
similar to yours.

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

Op zaterdag 1 oktober 2016 22:20:06 UTC+2 schreef Kerry Main:

> If looking for something that costs a bit more initially, but is
> likely more strategic if you have Windows/Linux in your
> environment as well:
>
> Invest in HPE C3000/C7000 blade enclosures infrastructure as they
> can host both IA64 and X86-64 blades in the same enclosure.
> Hence, you can run Windows/Linux on some blades, OpenVMS on the
> IA64 blades - all in the same blade infrastructure. In a few
> years, you could have OpenVMS, Windows and Linux all running on
> the same X86-64 blade servers.
>
> Ideally, all the legacy Windows/Linux servers would be converted
> to OpenVMS V9+ on X86-64 blades.

I'm not so sure I would recommend that; the C3000/C7000 blade form factor is getting near EOL (Google "HPE Synergy" if you want to have a look at its successor), and mixing x86 and Itanium blades is generally discouraged because getting the firmware versions to match properly in such a mixed environment can be a real nightmare. Given that OpenVMS on x86 won't be ready before 2019 (2018 for ISVs and early adopters), I wouldn't place my bets on running it on current C7000 generation blades.

Camiel.

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax...@rbnsn.com] On Behalf

> Of Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax
> Sent: 06-Oct-16 9:02 AM
> To: info...@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seao...@hoffmanlabs.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Multiple OpenVMS instances on HPVM?
>

Intersystem recently announced NEW support for their latest versions of Cache 2016.1 and Ensemble 2016.1 on VSI OpenVMS IA64.

Minimum versions:
http://bit.ly/2dxwDm2

>From reading the various statements, the only supported TCPIP stack on IA64/OpenVMS is the native VSI TCPIP stack.

I can see how from an ISV perspective that regardless of whether Multinet works fine, this might be a bit of complex support issue for them (training, multiple vendors, finger pointing etc)

Having stated this, since the native OpenVMS TCPIP stack from VSI will soon be the VSI version of Multinet, I would imagine that once it is officially released, then Intersystem would support the new native TCPIP stack from VSI and, at some future point, not support the old native TCPIP stack.

Similarly, Intersystem also has some restrictions about Java on OpenVMS (they need min Java 7). Once Java 8 is available on VSI OpenVMS, I would imagine Intersystem would look at updating their support statements.

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2016-10-06 13:23:04 +0000, Camiel Vanderhoeven said:

> I'm not so sure I would recommend that; the C3000/C7000 blade form
> factor is getting near EOL (Google "HPE Synergy" if you want to have a
> look at its successor), and mixing x86 and Itanium blades is generally
> discouraged because getting the firmware versions to match properly in
> such a mixed environment can be a real nightmare. Given that OpenVMS on
> x86 won't be ready before 2019 (2018 for ISVs and early adopters), I
> wouldn't place my bets on running it on current C7000 generation blades.

No Itanium support is expected in the Synergy product line, based on
what an HPE rep was stating at boot camp.

What particular server hardware and VM confgurations might or will have
VSI support, qualification processes and the rest, we shall learn as
the port approaches availability.

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax...@rbnsn.com] On Behalf
> Of Camiel Vanderhoeven via Info-vax
> Sent: 06-Oct-16 9:23 AM
> To: info...@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamc...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Multiple OpenVMS instances on HPVM?
>

Camiel - good point on managing the blade FW versions. That
definitely can be a challenge.

In retrospect, given how little the blade/rack server HW can be
obtained for off the grey market these days (basically same cost
as a new laptop), the choice of blades vs. rack servers is
dependent more on whether you already have a blade C7000
infrastructure (familiar already with how to maintain FW
versions) and/or personal preferences of rack vs blades.

On the C7000 support aspect, there are Customers that literally
have hundreds+ of HPE blades running in C7000's, so I do not
expect the support for C7000's to go away anytime in the next 5
years. The HPE C7000 based blades are very popular for VMware
farms.

Note - While I am personally not a big fan of Gartner, many
Customers do make purchasing decisions based on Gartner, so here
is a link to their latest (May 2016) "Magic Quadrant for Modular
Servers" that shows HPE way out front.

http://gtnr.it/2dLrcTU

I definitely do like the new Synergy X86-64 server designs -
especially some of the new features like HW based, platform
neutral OS provisioning (HPE Image Streamer).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj61EV977s8