Confuse the kids!

[seasoned_geek]

I don't do squat on Reddit. I had to create an account on it to reply to something once. Well, today I needed to reply to some writing thing via reddit and I happened to notice a short thing where people submit "Best programming books." In an act of shameless self promotion I submitted the link to my first OpenVMS book. None of those kids have ever heard of VMS so I'm poking around for a few people that actually have Reddit accounts to comment on it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BestProgrammingBooks/comments/6ocdmi/the_minimum_you_need_to_know_to_be_an_openvms/


Do I think any of those kids will ever buy a copy? Nope. Most probably couldn't read it. The token handful of book categories they had there seemed to be all script kiddie stuff.

So, if you happen to have a Reddit account and feel like leaving a comment, for/against, doesn't matter to me, I just want to see all of those dazed and confused looks.

But but but, you mean it doesn't run on my phone??? Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

[IanD]

I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back

I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands the system churned away and responded

They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than 30 seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off

I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your tablet and phone does in the background but they couldn't care

A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to go to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one that was very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same response, they were just not interested

Very disappointing indeed :-(

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

I can easily name 10 different things/jobs that would be very
boring to me also... :-)

Are your kids even interested in the IT technology at all?
Fortunally, the IT world is not the whole world.

[IanD]

They don't see IT as an enabler or as a lever one can use to create new things from. They just view it as something you use, little more

One wants to go into the medical field, another is involved in advanced programs with their artistic talents. One is interested in nature / animals and the other will probably had towards people management etc

I guess I've been a poor teacher at showing the creative side of IT. I can show it with math (my first love!) but in IT my creative side is waning

They are telling kids in school these days that learning a computing language is the new language to be learning as opposed to when I went to school where they told you to learn Japanese, French, Italian, Chinese (it varies depending on who the world things is the next big focus)

> > Fortunally, the IT world is not the whole world.

Thankfully, this is very true !!!!

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2017-07-20 kl. 11:35, skrev IanD:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 7:20:58 PM UTC+10, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> wrote:
>> Den 2017-07-20 kl. 11:06, skrev IanD:
>>> I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back
>>>
>>> I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands
>>> the system churned away and responded
>>>
>>> They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than
>>> 30 seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off
>>>
>>> I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your
>>> tablet and phone does in the background but they couldn't care
>>>
>>> A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to
>>> go to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one
>>> that was very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same
>>> response, they were just not interested
>>>
>>> Very disappointing indeed :-(
>>>
>>
>> I can easily name 10 different things/jobs that would be very boring
>> to me also... :-)
>>
>> Are your kids even interested in the IT technology at all?
>
> They don't see IT as an enabler or as a lever one can use to create new
> things from. They just view it as something you use, little more
>

A bit like me, it is the usage side of IT that I see as important.
Large parts of the technology is actually rather boring. :-)

> One wants to go into the medical field, another is involved in advanced
> programs with their artistic talents. One is interested in nature /
> animals and the other will probably had towards people management etc
>

Sounds good. I would not be particulary worried... :-)

> I guess I've been a poor teacher at showing the creative side of IT. I
> can show it with math (my first love!) but in IT my creative side is
> waning
>
> They are telling kids in school these days that learning a computing

> language is the new language...

Yes, a lot of people trying to catch up on the latest hype. Some
general knowledge might be good, but you do not need any specific
programming language knowledge until you actually are going to
work in that field.

[Bill Gunshannon]

And still you wonder why bringing VMS back is going to be a really hard
sell.....


bill

[VAXman-]

My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
too much time typing to interface with it. They'd prefer mindless games over
learning or doing anything truly useful with IT. My kid desires to get into
game development but I think he's in for a big surprise. ;) Just in case, I
have him practicing proper pronunciation of. "Would you like fries with your
order?"

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

[Hans Vlems]

My two oldest daughters have fond memories of VMS. They are 33,34 so grew up in an age where computers in the home were rare indeed. The games (my own) they remember.
And PHONE and MAIL :)

[Saifi Khan]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 3:05:55 PM UTC+5:30, IanD wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 7:20:58 PM UTC+10, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > Den 2017-07-20 kl. 11:06, skrev IanD:
> > > I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back
> > >
> > > I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands the
> > > system churned away and responded
> > >
> > > They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than 30
> > > seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off
> > >
> > > I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your tablet
> > > and phone does in the background but they couldn't care
> > >
> > > A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to go
> > > to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one that was
> > > very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same response, they
> > > were just not interested
> > >
> > > Very disappointing indeed :-(
> > >
> >
> > I can easily name 10 different things/jobs that would be very
> > boring to me also... :-)
> >
> > Are your kids even interested in the IT technology at all?
>
> They don't see IT as an enabler or as a lever one can use to create new things from. They just view it as something you use, little more
>

> I guess I've been a poor teacher at showing the creative side of IT. I can show it with math (my first love!) but in IT my creative side is waning
>

Hi Ian:

Could you please share information about, where one can get "free" access to OpenVMS system ?

Unfortunately, in my country there is no DECUS group/affiliated body, so i'm not eligible for OpenVMS Hobbyist license.

i'm deeply interested in programming and learning about Operating Systems. i have some knowledge of Windows NT, FreeBSD, Linux and SMF in Solaris.

Appreciate any pointers that you may have.


warm regards
Saifi.

[Mark Daniel]

On 21/7/17 1:33 am, Saifi Khan wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 3:05:55 PM UTC+5:30, IanD wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 7:20:58 PM UTC+10, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2017-07-20 kl. 11:06, skrev IanD:
>>>> I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back
>>>>
>>>> I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands the
>>>> system churned away and responded
>>>>
>>>> They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than 30
>>>> seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off
>>>>
>>>> I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your tablet
>>>> and phone does in the background but they couldn't care
>>>>
>>>> A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to go
>>>> to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one that was
>>>> very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same response, they
>>>> were just not interested
>>>>
>>>> Very disappointing indeed :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> I can easily name 10 different things/jobs that would be very
>>> boring to me also... :-)
>>>
>>> Are your kids even interested in the IT technology at all?
>>
>> They don't see IT as an enabler or as a lever one can use to create new things from. They just view it as something you use, little more
>>
>> I guess I've been a poor teacher at showing the creative side of IT. I can show it with math (my first love!) but in IT my creative side is waning
>>
>
> Hi Ian:
>
> Could you please share information about, where one can get "free" access to OpenVMS system ?

https://eisner.decus.org

[Saifi Khan]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:04:50 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Daniel wrote:
> >
> > Could you please share information about, where one can get "free" access
to OpenVMS system ?
>
> https://eisner.decus.org
>

Hey Mark:

Thanks for the pointers and i have been able to do the following.

1. sign up on decus.org

2. troubleshoot SSH access as OpenVMS offers ssh-DSS
ssh -oHostKeyAlgorithms=+ssh-dss kh...@decus.org

3. find my way around with basic DCL commands, thanks to
http://antapex.org/vms.txt

4. basic commands of EVE (extensible versatile editor)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVE_(text_editor)

5. wrote, compiled and execute a C program with inputs from OpenVMS C guide
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/commercial/c/docs/5492p.html#prog_dev_chap

That sure felt good. Thanks a bunch.


warm regards
Saifi.

[Mark Daniel]

A most accomplished initial foray Saifa. Enjoy!

[Hans Bachner]

Saifi Khan schrieb am 20.07.2017 um 18:03:
> [snip]

>
> Could you please share information about, where one can get "free" access to OpenVMS system ?
>
> Unfortunately, in my country there is no DECUS group/affiliated body, so i'm not eligible for OpenVMS Hobbyist license.
>
> i'm deeply interested in programming and learning about Operating Systems. i have some knowledge of Windows NT, FreeBSD, Linux and SMF in Solaris.
>
> Appreciate any pointers that you may have.

Have a look at http://eisner.encompasserve.org/online/hobbyist

http://eisner.encompasserve.org/online/ tells you how to register for a
DECUServe account.

Hope this helps,
Hans.

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2017-07-20 09:35:52 +0000, IanD said:

> They don't see IT as an enabler or as a lever one can use to create new
> things from. They just view it as something you use, little more

They've grown up in a different era.

Starting back around 2003...

http://www.nicholascarr.com/?page_id=99
http://www.roughtype.com/?p=644



--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

[Rich Alderson]

Saifi Khan <sk...@strikr.in> writes:

> Could you please share information about, where one can get "free" access to
> OpenVMS system ?

> Unfortunately, in my country there is no DECUS group/affiliated body, so i'm
> not eligible for OpenVMS Hobbyist license.

> i'm deeply interested in programming and learning about Operating Systems. i
> have some knowledge of Windows NT, FreeBSD, Linux and SMF in Solaris.

In addition to the very modern system at eisner.decus.org, you can have a view
into the slightly older VAX world with a free account on the VAX-11/785 running
OpenVMS 7.3 at Living Computers: Museum + Labs. Unfortunately, the technical
folks don't have a lot of say in what should be on the front page of the web
site, so the following is buried in the "Discover" menu:

http://www.livingcomputers.org/Discover/Online-Systems/Request-a-Login.aspx

Disclaimer: I work at LCM+L.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[VAXman-]

Rich,

Did the IP address of the 11/785 change? I can no longer get to it.

[Rich Alderson]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> In article <mddpocuit...@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson
> <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:

>> In addition to the very modern system at eisner.decus.org, you can
>> have a view into the slightly older VAX world with a free account on
>> the VAX-11/785 running OpenVMS 7.3 at Living Computers: Museum + Labs.
>> Unfortunately, the technical folks don't have a lot of say in what
>> should be on the front page of the web site, so the following is
>> buried in the "Discover" menu:

>> http://www.livingcomputers.org/Discover/Online-Systems/Request-a-Login.aspx

> Rich,

> Did the IP address of the 11/785 change? I can no longer get to it.

Brian,

Yes, it did. I really wish the minimalists who control the web site (not the
Engineering staff, obviously) would allow us to put things like system status
on the front page. Like the account request form, you have to look under the
"Discover" menu[1] to get there, where you will find the following from last
February:

13 February 2017: VMS (VAX 785) logins

In order to prevent VMS lockouts, Telnet and SSH logins have been turned
off. To log in to the VAX, ssh to vax...@TTY.LivingComputers.org to
connect automatically via an internal network at the museum.

We had to do the same thing for our Dec-10 last month, not that anyone here
would care. ;-)

[1] Isn't that the obvious place? :-(

[VAXman-]

In article <mddtw25...@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:

>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
>> In article <mddpocuit...@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson
>> <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>
>>> In addition to the very modern system at eisner.decus.org, you can
>>> have a view into the slightly older VAX world with a free account on
>>> the VAX-11/785 running OpenVMS 7.3 at Living Computers: Museum + Labs.
>>> Unfortunately, the technical folks don't have a lot of say in what
>>> should be on the front page of the web site, so the following is
>>> buried in the "Discover" menu:
>
>>> http://www.livingcomputers.org/Discover/Online-Systems/Request-a-Login.aspx
>

>> Rich,
>
>> Did the IP address of the 11/785 change? I can no longer get to it.
>

>Brian,
>
>Yes, it did. I really wish the minimalists who control the web site (not the
>Engineering staff, obviously) would allow us to put things like system status
>on the front page. Like the account request form, you have to look under the
>"Discover" menu[1] to get there, where you will find the following from last
>February:
>
> 13 February 2017: VMS (VAX 785) logins
>
> In order to prevent VMS lockouts, Telnet and SSH logins have been turned
> off. To log in to the VAX, ssh to vax...@TTY.LivingComputers.org to
> connect automatically via an internal network at the museum.
>
>We had to do the same thing for our Dec-10 last month, not that anyone here
>would care. ;-)
>
>[1] Isn't that the obvious place? :-(

I'm having issue with my username or password. Probably expired in the time
since I was last able to access it.

[seasoned_geek]

Oh No!!!!

Death Row died!

410 Gone

Thank you for stopping by the "Deathrow OpenVMS Cluster". Unfortunately, due to a lack of time & resources,
this project has come to an end. The Deathrow hardware has been safely stored away in hopes that one day it
will return. Thank you to all the users and people that have assisted in the administration duties of the
cluster. It has been a lot of fun over the many, many years the cluster was in operation. I really apperciate
it. If you have any questions, please contact me:

- Da Beave (Former Deathrow Administraotr)

Twiter: @dabeave666
E-mail: beave _@_ deathrow.vistech.net
IRC: irc.2600.net #vms

+++ATH
NO CARRIER

So much for that part of my book which tells people to go there for a free account.

[Rich Alderson]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> I'm having issue with my username or password. Probably expired in the time
> since I was last able to access it.

Updated account information sent via e-mail.

[onewing...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:

> In article Bill Gunshannon writes:
> >On 7/20/2017 5:06 AM, IanD wrote:
> >> I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back
> >>
> >> I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands the system churned away and responded
> >>
> >> They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than 30 seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off
> >>
> >> I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your tablet and phone does in the background but they couldn't care
> >>
> >> A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to go to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one that was very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same response, they were just not interested
> >>
> >> Very disappointing indeed :-(
> >>
> >
> >And still you wonder why bringing VMS back is going to be a really hard
> >sell.....
>
> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
> working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
> too much time typing to interface with it.

To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics -- ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory, and equally bad when it comes to "intuitive leaps"... I mean who is going to think "man" is obvious for 'help' (Well, manual... but with the love of two-letter commands you'd think it'd be mn).

> They'd prefer mindless games over
> learning or doing anything truly useful with IT.

Well, that's not exactly constrained to outside the industry -- there are plenty of software shops that use PHP because of the instant gratification (quick turn-around times) without even considering something more strict, structured, and requiring forethought (ie design).

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewing...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:
>> In article Bill Gunshannon writes:
>>> On 7/20/2017 5:06 AM, IanD wrote:
>>>> I tried to edumacate my kids by showing them VMS a few years back
>>>>
>>>> I showed them a VMS login and showed how when you typed commands the system churned away and responded
>>>>
>>>> They looked at me typing stuff, doing a show monitor for less than 30 seconds and said "Meh, how boring" and walked off
>>>>
>>>> I managed to throw in a comment about that's sort of what your tablet and phone does in the background but they couldn't care
>>>>
>>>> A few years before that I showed them a video of a large DC I had to go to once and showed them all the servers lined up and even one that was very colorful and had Google on the front of it - same response, they were just not interested
>>>>
>>>> Very disappointing indeed :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> And still you wonder why bringing VMS back is going to be a really hard
>>> sell.....
>>
>> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
>> working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
>> too much time typing to interface with it.
>

> To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics -- ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory, and equally bad when it comes to "intuitive leaps"... I mean who is going to think "man" is obvious for 'help' (Well, manual... but with the love of two-letter commands you'd think it'd be mn)'

Matter of opinion. I and most Unix users I know don't agree. And
when I think how most of the VMS users here (back in the day when
VMS was actually still in use here!) had a login.com that set up
SYMBOLS to let them use Unix like commands for most of the common
VMS stuff.

And, that ignores the fact that most people using Linux today are
doing it with a GUI and don't even care about the curtness of the
commands themselves.

>
>> They'd prefer mindless games over
>> learning or doing anything truly useful with IT.
>
> Well, that's not exactly constrained to outside the industry -- there are plenty of software shops that use PHP because of the instant gratification (quick turn-around times) without even considering something more strict, structured, and requiring forethought (ie design).
>

Regardless of the OS, there is little engineering in software
design and development today even with the advent of the term
Software Engineering.

bill

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewing...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:
>> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
>> working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
>> too much time typing to interface with it.
>
> To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics
> -- ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory,

Why? They are abbreviations of what the commands does.

> and equally bad when it comes to "intuitive leaps"... I mean who is
> going to think "man" is obvious for 'help' (Well, manual... but with the
> love of two-letter commands you'd think it'd be mn).

The term manual is indeed rather obvious.

Yes - there are some inconsistencies. Bazaar - not Cathedral.

>> They'd prefer mindless games over
>> learning or doing anything truly useful with IT.
>
> Well, that's not exactly constrained to outside the industry -- there
> are plenty of software shops that use PHP because of the instant
> gratification (quick turn-around times) without even considering
> something more strict, structured, and requiring forethought (ie
> design).

PHP requires the same design as other languages.

And if we ignore the hobby programmers and similar then
it also gets the same design as other languages.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

I am not so sure that is the case.

Comparing c.o.v/I-V with technical fora with mostly students or
right of college people gives a very different impression.

Arne

[Bill Gunshannon]

25 years in the Comp Sci department of a school with an accredited
CS program and a Masters program in "Software Engineering" has given
me more than enough first hand experience to support my comments.

9:55 - Class ends with programming assignment
9:57 - Students are sitting at the keyboard typing in their program.

Habits developed at this point in their education will follow them
throughout their careers.

bill

[onewing...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 7:41:16 PM UTC-6, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewingedshark wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:
> >> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
> >> working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
> >> too much time typing to interface with it.
> >
> > To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics
> > -- ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory,
>
> Why? They are abbreviations of what the commands does.

Terrible abbreviations: generally two letters of some functionality that was generally more recognizable by a different name [at that point in computing; the popularity of unix-like OSes has altered terminology] isn't conducive to memory.

ls -> LiSt
ld -> link-LoaDer
ar -> ARchive
cat -> conCATenate
tar -> Tape ARchive (backup)
rm -> ReMove
chmod -> CHange MODe
man -> MANual

No real rule for the abbreviation, see?

Seriously, compare those to these:
https://www3.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/vms-unix-commands.html

>
> > and equally bad when it comes to "intuitive leaps"... I mean who is
> > going to think "man" is obvious for 'help' (Well, manual... but with the
> > love of two-letter commands you'd think it'd be mn).
>
> The term manual is indeed rather obvious.

The abbreviation to "man" is not.

> >> They'd prefer mindless games over
> >> learning or doing anything truly useful with IT.
> >
> > Well, that's not exactly constrained to outside the industry -- there
> > are plenty of software shops that use PHP because of the instant
> > gratification (quick turn-around times) without even considering
> > something more strict, structured, and requiring forethought (ie
> > design).
>
> PHP requires the same design as other languages.

Have you used something like, say, Ada? ML? Haskell?
No, PHP facilitates much, much sloppier [non-designed] programs, and by its very nature. [It started life as a interpreted templating language, "Personal HomePage" IIRC.]

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 8/8/2017 6:27 PM, onewing...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 7:41:16 PM UTC-6, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewingedshark wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:
>>>> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many things
>>>> working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he had to spend
>>>> too much time typing to interface with it.
>>>
>>> To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics
>>> -- ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory,
>>
>> Why? They are abbreviations of what the commands does.
>
> Terrible abbreviations: generally two letters of some functionality
> that was generally more recognizable by a different name [at that point
> in computing; the popularity of unix-like OSes has altered terminology]
> isn't conducive to memory.
>
> ls -> LiSt
> ld -> link-LoaDer
> ar -> ARchive
> cat -> conCATenate
> tar -> Tape ARchive (backup)
> rm -> ReMove
> chmod -> CHange MODe
> man -> MANual
>
> No real rule for the abbreviation, see?

The abbreviations are not consistent/systematic.

That would be a huge problem for a computer
program to go from command functionality to
abbreviation.

But if you ask *nix users if they have problems
remembering them the typical answer would be no.

Apparently the human brain are rather flexible.

Arne

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 8/8/2017 6:27 PM, onewing...@gmail.com wrote:

Not so much Ada. Lots of Macro-32, Fortran, Pascal, C++, C,
Java and C#.

> No, PHP facilitates much, much sloppier [non-designed] programs, and
> by its very nature.

I think you are missing what design is.

The process is:

problem -> design -> code

The design for a given problem should (in most cases) be
independent of the language it will be implemented in.

You have problem X, you create a design on how to
solve that problem, and then you can implement it
in Ada or PHP. Same design for the two languages.

[I would find it very hard to come up with a
problem domain where both Ada and PHP makes
sense, but that does not impact the point -
pick a couple of other languages]

Languages does not dictate amount of design.

Problem domain to some extent dictate the amount
of design. Criticality tend to lead to more design.

And skills of the developer influence whether
the proper amount of design is actually done.

> [It started life as a interpreted templating
> language, "Personal HomePage" IIRC.]

Originally PHP was indeed "Personal Home Page".

Now it is "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor".

Arne

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2017-08-08 22:27:29 +0000, onewing...@gmail.com said:

> On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 7:41:16 PM UTC-6, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewingedshark wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:
>>>> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many
>>>> things working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he
>>>> had to spend too much time typing to interface with it.

That's the typical response most folks to that style of user interface,
and a response that should be very familiar. Younger folks can be
smart about this, having grown up swimming in computers and software
and good and bad user interfaces.

Many of the business folks using computers do unfortunately deal with
some pretty bad user interfaces — command line, SMG/curses/ncurses, and
more than a few internal-use GUI apps for that matter — and they use
those interfaces because they get paid to. That's a budget shift from
the internal app developers over to the end-users and the trainers and
support folks for the business, too. Sometimes that works. Sometimes
not.

Taking a different tact with these same design and complexity issues
around user interfaces being difficult and expensive to modify, one of
the tool chains I deal with has split off the GUI design and
implementation and making it entirely feasible to substantially alter
the GUI with minimal or no changes to the application code, too.

>>> To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics --
>>> ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory,
>>
>> Why? They are abbreviations of what the commands does.
>
> Terrible abbreviations: generally two letters of some functionality
> that was generally more recognizable by a different name [at that point
> in computing; the popularity of unix-like OSes has altered terminology]
> isn't conducive to memory.

Though we're far past the era of anybody using the command line outside
of the folks that really need to, and there's a fairly large overlap of
those same command-line folks with folks that are programming in one or
more languages in addition to the shell. And the vast majority of
those command-line folks either know bash (or zsh, fish, or some other
shell), or they know PowerShell and the DOS-box, or both. Fewer know
DCL. And more than a little scripting code that runs in those other
command line environments, and a whole lot less that runs in DCL. Not
that DCL will ever go away on OpenVMS, at least not before somebody
writes the tools necessary to translate it into whatever replaces it
and likely not even then.

Complaints of the current command line morasses aside, any (potential)
replacement for (for instance) bash or fish shell or otherwise is going
to have to run far more widely than OpenVMS, or OpenVMS usage will have
to expand at ludicrous speed. PowerShell runs on other platforms now,
for instance. This if DCL or some unspecified DCL replacement is ever
going to be anything more than a platform-specific curiosity.

[Rich Alderson]

onewing...@gmail.com writes:

> On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 7:41:16 PM UTC-6, Arne Vajh=C3=B8j wrote:

>> On 8/7/2017 12:29 AM, onewingedshark wrote:

>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:45:38 AM UTC-6, VAXman- wrote:

>>>> My kid got his hands on Linux. He played about with it and he got many
>>>> things working -- much to my surprise -- but he lost initiative when he
>>>> had to spend too much time typing to interface with it.

>>> To be fair, Linux is terrible when it comes to usability mnemonics --
>>> ls, ld, ar, and so on are terrible names when it comes to human memory,

>> Why? They are abbreviations of what the commands does.

> Terrible abbreviations: generally two letters of some functionality that was
> generally more recognizable by a different name [at that point in computing;
> the popularity of unix-like OSes has altered terminology] isn't conducive to
> memory.

> ls -> LiSt

This came from Multics, where long commands had short abbreviations. In
particular, the command "list_segment" has an abbreviation "ls". Because the
system utilized segment-style virtual memory for everything, including storage
of data in what we call "files" on other operating systems, this was a
perfectly reasonable name for a directory-listing command.

> ld -> link-LoaDer

Simply "load". No need to bother with "link"; the program might not.

> ar -> ARchive
> cat -> conCATenate

Simply "catenate". Yes, this is an English word.

> tar -> Tape ARchive (backup)
> rm -> ReMove
> chmod -> CHange MODe
> man -> MANual

> No real rule for the abbreviation, see?

Since the operating system in question began life as an experiment among a
small group of like-minded researchers, a simple list of common commands
was sufficient, don't you think? They weren't researching CHI, after all.
They were researching *how* *to* *write* *an* *operating* *system*.

[Bob Koehler]

In article <mddwp6c...@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <ne...@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>
> Since the operating system in question began life as an experiment among a
> small group of like-minded researchers, a simple list of common commands
> was sufficient, don't you think? They weren't researching CHI, after all.
> They were researching *how* *to* *write* *an* *operating* *system*.

And there has been a lot of similar research since then. There has
also been research into how to design a progamming language, and how
to do human interfaces.

But in the software industry, all of that has been overcome by the
simple application of hype.

[seasoned_geek]

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 1:47:27 PM UTC-5, Rich Alderson wrote:

> Since the operating system in question began life as an experiment among a
> small group of like-minded researchers, a simple list of common commands
> was sufficient, don't you think? They weren't researching CHI, after all.
> They were researching *how* *to* *write* *an* *operating* *system*.
>

Actually, in the case of UNIX itself, the incredibly short commands came about for 2 unrelated reasons.

*)The mechanical keyboards they were typing on were a *bitch* to type on. Reportedly stiffer than a band new manual typewriter. I don't know why they weren't using actual VT-52 or VT-100 because both of those were great to type on. Well, the VT-52 was. In computer labs the VT-100 could suffer from mild increases in humidity giving them a sticky stiff push.

*) We had a sever limitation with file names. First 6.3 then 8.3 (yes, there were probably other platforms with shorter limitations, but I remember working on those.) We also had a naming restriction that no file name could begin with a digit.

UNIX (which Linux follows at least in spirit) was never supposed to reach the wild. It was developed to be "good enough" for the internal use Bell Labs desired. As I remember it was to operate a phone switch and allow for remote access so simple tasks would not require someone going on-site to fix/change.

Eventually it was released into the wild as part of the ATT breakup and colleges glommed onto this free OS which could run on cast off PDP hardware. Nobody bothered to fix the command line, just add more stuff, so some 30+ years later we are stuck dealing with a command line interface which wasn't meant to be used by many.

What is even more shocking is that logical name tables _never_ made it into UNIX despite RSTS/E having them on the PDP-11/24 or 44 that Richie was using. Again, I attribute this to the two causes above. They weren't absolutely required for the limited intended use and they would require more typing.

Hmmm...this link says it was a PDP-1 not a PDP-11
https://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/father-of-c-and-unix-dennis-ritchie-passes-away-at-age-70/

Bigger hmmm
Wikepedia says PDP-7 initially but version 7 was written for PDP-11.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie

I wonder if there is any place still running a PDP-11. Not counting HSC hardware that may still be out there or emulators. Ah those where the days. Don't want to wait in line for the college print queue, just PIP to the printer. Man they hated when we did that!

[David Froble]

seasoned_geek wrote:

> I wonder if there is any place still running a PDP-11. Not counting HSC
> hardware that may still be out there or emulators. Ah those where the days.

Well, I seem to recall some demand for Macro-11 programmers for some sites in
Canada ...

> Don't want to wait in line for the college print queue, just PIP to the
> printer. Man they hated when we did that!
>

Yeah, most likely because they had checks, or some other special form in the
printer ...

:-)

[Paul Sture]

On 2017-08-15, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

> seasoned_geek wrote:
>
>> Don't want to wait in line for the college print queue, just PIP to the
>> printer. Man they hated when we did that!
>>
>
> Yeah, most likely because they had checks, or some other special form in the
> printer ...
>
>:-)

Now that one brings back memories. When we were running RT-11 I
discovered that I could run the print spooler as a foreground job (only
4KB IIRC) and get some invoices printed over lunchtime *and* bring the
accounts system up ready for the afternoon session.

The trouble came when the print job didn't finish by 13:30 and the
accounts lady upstairs started to print something. Horrible mess with
bits of the accounts daybook intermingled with invoices, on invoice
stationery.

--
Everybody has a testing environment. Some people are lucky enough to
have a totally separate environment to run production in.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-08-14, seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, in the case of UNIX itself, the incredibly short commands came
> about for 2 unrelated reasons.
>
> *)The mechanical keyboards they were typing on were a *bitch* to type on.

If someone has never used an ASR-33 keyboard or similar, then they cannot
truly understand the conditions under which early computer users worked.

I first used an ASR-33 keyboard as a secondary school student in around
1979/1980 and when I used the TTY 43 keyboard a couple of years later
then that later keyboard was in a completely different world to the ASR-33.

> Reportedly stiffer than a band new manual typewriter. I don't know why they
> weren't using actual VT-52 or VT-100 because both of those were great to type
> on. Well, the VT-52 was. In computer labs the VT-100 could suffer from mild
> increases in humidity giving them a sticky stiff push.
>

Neither the VT52 or the VT100 existed when Unix was first created and
although I started using video terminals in the early 1980s at school,
that usage was still mixed with hardcopy terminals.

From what I can remember, that was also the general case in normal
production use in businesses and other places for quite some time as well.

Don't forget, for example, that early Unix systems had support for upper
case only terminals. (If you typed your username in uppercase, you were
assumed to be using an uppercase only terminal and any real uppercase
characters in the output were prefixed with a '\' (IIRC)).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 8/14/2017 9:59 PM, David Froble wrote:
> seasoned_geek wrote:
>
>> I wonder if there is any place still running a PDP-11. Not counting HSC
>> hardware that may still be out there or emulators. Ah those where the
>> days.
>
> Well, I seem to recall some demand for Macro-11 programmers for some
> sites in Canada ...

Nuclear power plants. :-) But I don't think it's the GE ones.

>
>> Don't want to wait in line for the college print queue, just PIP to the
>> printer. Man they hated when we did that!
>>
>
> Yeah, most likely because they had checks, or some other special form in
> the printer ...
>
> :-)

Good way for a student to get his computer use yanked.

bill

[David Froble]

Don't upset the AP clerk. Your next expense reimbursement check just might be late.

:-)

[Rich Alderson]

seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 1:47:27 PM UTC-5, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Since the operating system in question began life as an experiment among a
>> small group of like-minded researchers, a simple list of common commands
>> was sufficient, don't you think? They weren't researching CHI, after all.
>> They were researching *how* *to* *write* *an* *operating* *system*.

> Actually, in the case of UNIX itself, the incredibly short commands came
> about for 2 unrelated reasons.

> *)The mechanical keyboards they were typing on were a *bitch* to type
> on. Reportedly stiffer than a band new manual typewriter. I don't know why
> they weren't using actual VT-52 or VT-100 because both of those were great
> to type on. Well, the VT-52 was. In computer labs the VT-100 could suffer
> from mild increases in humidity giving them a sticky stiff push.

Probably because display terminals of any kind were new, expensive, and
unreliable, leaving aside Simon's note that neither the VT-52 nor the VT-100
had been invented yet.

They also used IBM 2741 terminals, which were Selectric keyboards and not at
all bad to type on.

So this is a straw man.

> *) We had a sever limitation with file names. First 6.3 then 8.3 (yes, there
> were probably other platforms with shorter limitations, but I remember
> working on those.) We also had a naming restriction that no file name could
> begin with a digit.

OS/360 had a limit of 44 characters max, in period-separated chunks of 8
characters max. ITS file names were limited to two parts with 6 characters
each. SCOPE filenames were a maximum of 6 characters, period.

So what?

Unix file names were maxed at 14 characters for a very long time, with user
names limited to 8 characters max. None of this has anything to do with the
short forms of commands.

> UNIX (which Linux follows at least in spirit) was never supposed to reach the
> wild. It was developed to be "good enough" for the internal use Bell Labs
> desired. As I remember it was to operate a phone switch and allow for remote
> access so simple tasks would not require someone going on-site to fix/change.

Sure, eventually.

> Eventually it was released into the wild as part of the ATT breakup and
> colleges glommed onto this free OS which could run on cast off PDP
> hardware. Nobody bothered to fix the command line, just add more stuff, so
> some 30+ years later we are stuck dealing with a command line interface which
> wasn't meant to be used by many.

Unix was released into the wild more tha a decade prior to the AT&T breakup.

> What is even more shocking is that logical name tables _never_ made it into
> UNIX despite RSTS/E having them on the PDP-11/24 or 44 that Richie was
> using. Again, I attribute this to the two causes above. They weren't
> absolutely required for the limited intended use and they would require more
> typing.

> Hmmm...this link says it was a PDP-1 not a PDP-11
> https://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/father-of-c-and-unix-dennis-ritchie-passes-away-at-age-70/

That is a typo. The 1971 release was Research Version 1 (AKA 1st Edition) on
the PDP-11. It was in an early dialect of C, not yet even K&R level. It has
been resurrected.

> Bigger hmmm
> Wikepedia says PDP-7 initially but version 7 was written for PDP-11.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie

Yes, the original version, jokingly refered to as "Unics" by the former Multics
researchers who created it, was done in assembly language on a PDP-7. See, for
example, Dennis Ritchie's history available in a PDF at

http://www.read.seas.harvard.edu/~kohler/class/aosref/ritchie84evolution.pdf

We at Living Computers: Museum + Labs participated in the restoration by
transcription of printouts of what the project calls "Research Version 0",
which has been made to run under a SimH PDP-7 emulator. Eventually, we will
put it up on our running PDP-7 at the museum, once we get the appropriate disk
emulator built.

> I wonder if there is any place still running a PDP-11. Not counting HSC
> hardware that may still be out there or emulators. Ah those where the
> days. Don't want to wait in line for the college print queue, just PIP to the
> printer. Man they hated when we did that!

Well, we're running Research Version 7 on an PDP-11/70 at the museum, and offer
free accounts (just like the VMS 7.3 accounts on our VAX-11/780-5). As for
commercial use, I only know what I see advertised in alt.sys.pdp11 or here.